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Opposition parties . . All hot air . .
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Laminations wrote: »I agree with you to some extent but suggesting the opposition need a bright spark lacks a bit of detail. What would you suggest they do?
Edited that to make my point a little clearer
- I see Fianna Fail as the compromised, talentless Fighter in the Ring, all talk and swagger, but crooked and with no real substance - a few well aimed punches from any opponent should be enough to begin the count at this stage - But all we got in the Ring is lightweights standing around and wittering inanely with no fight in them at all......0 -
Setting your expectations too high is a sure fire way of being disappointed. I suppose like testing individual differences, any test of performance of political parties must have sensitivity. Set the bar too high and they all fail, set it too low and they all pass and you cannot tell them apart. Setting the bar so low that the opposition can never fail our expectations does not mean that the government cant. The opposition are better than the government. I'd hope if the opposition got into power FF would buck up their game as the bar would be raised, even if only slightly. And so on we would get incremental increases and better performance out of our politicians as time went on, hopefully until the bar is at a reasonable level expectation. This will never happen with one party being in power constantly.0
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Thinking about it I suppose we dont set the bar at all, the government do with their performance. Thinking the opposition cant do any worse is an admission that you'd think they'd do better, again even if only slightly. Then given that politicians crave power, FF would have to improve to be reelected. Although it would all fail if the opposition are elected and make a total balls of it. The bar would go nowhere and the country would be in a terribly depressing state.0
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Laminations wrote: »Setting your expectations too high is a sure fire way of being disappointed. I suppose like testing individual differences, any test of performance of political parties must have sensitivity. Set the bar too high and they all fail, set it too low and they all pass and you cannot tell them apart. Setting the bar so low that the opposition can never fail our expectations does not mean that the government cant. The opposition are better than the government. I'd hope if the opposition got into power FF would buck up their game as the bar would be raised, even if only slightly. And so on we would get incremental increases and better performance out of our politicians as time went on, hopefully until the bar is at a reasonable level expectation. This will never happen with one party being in power constantly.
I completely disagree . . The only way we will ever get any better out of our politicians is by consistently demanding that they raise the bar, not by comparing them to the worst case scenario alternative . .
When I say have higher expectations, I mean you should demand more (then you realistically expect) from your politician . . Theres nothing wrong with demanding perfection and accepting a decent attempt at it. . Up until now , people are just demanding change (which is asking nothing of the opposition) . .
Incidentally saying the opposition are better then the government is your opinion, not a fact . . (and saying that doesnt make me a pro-FF'r) . .
Its up to the people of the country to set the bar, make the governments mandate and to assess it every 4-5 years . . By hoping that FF would up their game being out of power (which would of course happen) is once again putting the owness back on politicians to raise their game and taking responsibility back off the electorate which is why we are in this mess in the first place! . The only people who can force change are the people of the country . . People forget that while the government has the power to change things, the people of the country can dethrone them and shape the countries destiny . . A democratic government can only do what its people allows it to do . .0 -
Liam Byrne wrote: »There have been numerous occasions where the opposition have been found badly wanting, - Ahern's finances, the banks, TD's pay and expenses, the banking inquiry, NAMA - and the weather was just the most recent.
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Remember when they did attack ahern and how the great Irish voting public were seen to react in the polls.
It was seen as political suicide to question the tearful one.
Thus they didn't bring it up in the run up to the election and said they would wait for tribunal.
When Kenny did attack ahern on his resignation he was accused of sour grapes and kicking a man when he is down.
So how was he supposed to win.
Was Enda Kenny not the first politican (bar maybe Joe Higgins or some such) who actually came out and said he was taking a voluntary paycut.
What was accused of, oh yes pulling PR stunts :rolleyes:
Some of his party refused including Phil Hogan claiming his personal circumstances didn't allow it.
A huge chunk of the Irish electorate bought bertie's fables because it suited them and they were doing all right jack so who cared.
Some of these same voters are now complaining that the likes of Kenny weren't strong enough to attack ff, their cronies and their policies.
The word that comes to mind his hypocrit.
BTW I am not syaing you are one, you are one of the people like me who has probably had a low opinion of ff and their little deals for years.
But there are some out there who were lauding bertie and his fine economy until it ran off the rails.hallelujajordan wrote: »My theory is that the opposition genuinely don't want to bring down the government. .
Sure, they will attack individuals like Gormley and Dempsey but when it comes to making a real surge on the government and in trying to force a general election FG & Labour have been found seriously lacking. There have been a number of times over the past year where I have felt that if FG & Labour were to work together they might have more success yet as Gilmore & Kenny demonstrated during the O'Donoghue affair, they seem unable to do this effectively (Rather ominous, considering they may be Taoiseach and Tanaiste at some point in the future !)
I think it is easier for them to throw stones from the opposition benches. . Bask in their popularity increases (which incidentally has nothing to do with them and everything to do with a fall in support for the government parties) and wait for the government to make the hard and unpopular decisions neccessary to bring about any sort of economic recovery.
Easier to allow FF to do it and then come in when all the hard work is done...
How many times have FG and Labour had to come in and inherit the mess created by ff.
They had to do it in the early 80s and haughey and his ff boyos (remember these fine upstanding names burke, flynn, ahern) weresniping at them about making cuts.
Lo and behold haughey took over in 1987 and had to make savage cuts to ensure the IMF were not coming in.
Guess what Alan Dukes leading FG sacrificed his own political career to ensure haughey could make the cuts to save the country.
Why should the opposition come in, make all the hard decisions and take the brunt of the public anger and the very probable sniping from ff to be promptly rewarded by the electorate, who like a battered wife always returns to the arms of ff, with decimation at the next election.
Maybe some in the opposition parties want the electorate to see what ff are capable or rather incapable of before they have to take over.
Irish voters don't tend to reward honest hard workers or even visionaries, they reward the cute hoors, the charmers and that is why we are where we are.I am not allowed discuss …
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TEither they were constructively trying to force changes for the good or they were simply pandering to the auditorium and just saying the exact opposite to government (or jumping on populist agendas). . .
I agree that the standards should be much better than "not con-men and not corrupt", but the way things are that would still be an improvement.
Ideally, I'd prefer if we had a stronger opposition, of course I would; and I've said as much.
But getting FF and their hair-brained, self-interested policies out would be an improvement, and that's a start.Im only asking questions of the opposition, you just keep putting down FF as if it highlights the positive credentials of the opposition . . . You are stuck in that "anybody's better then FF" stage which is exactly what worries me . .
Just because it worries you doesn't mean it's not true.
I've said elsewhere that Enda Kenny & FG let us down by not tackling FF about O'Donoghue, and a few other issues.
And yes, I'd like a stronger, ethical, sense-of-fairness opposition....and if a stronger one appears I'll gladly vote for it.
But for the moment, the "anybody's better than FF" is the best option that we have.
The barometer you (and thousands of others) have set for the opposition party is so low, they couldnt fail but to live up to your expectations . . This is why the country is in danger of voting in the opposition , without any real change occurring . .[/QUOTE]A democratic government can only do what its people allows it to do . .
That's incorrect, for a start.
The Greens were voted in on the promise that they wouldn't lie down with FF; once elected, they did just that.
FF are going ahead with NAMA, with little-or-no support from the general public, and apparently there is no way of stopping it. The opposition did their job in this case, giving options in relation to nationalisation and letting the country gain in return for the risk, but FF - including the cowardly con-artists that resigned and still voted with them - ignored that and ploughed ahead with their buddies.
How, exactly, would you propose that the people "disallow" NAMA ?
The only way we can show our disgust in a meaningful way is at the next General Election, at which stage it will be too late.
But if you truly agree that governments cannot impose what people don't want and won't allow, then by all means fill us in on how we can stop this disgusting transfer or wealth.0 -
BTW I am not syaing you are one, you are one of the people like me who has probably had a low opinion of ff and their little deals for years.
True. Their actions (and inactions) over the years have led me to that opinion.How many times have FG and Labour had to come in and inherit the mess created by ff.
I was fairly young, but I remember it.Some Irish voters don't tend to reward honest hard workers or even visionaries, they reward the cute hoors, the charmers and that is why we are where we are.
I know it was a general comment, but I had to correct/qualify that - sorry.0 -
If you made a few phone calls to help a Planning Authority reach a decision on granting planning permission to your Nephew, Friend or Neighbour.... Or perhaps used your Political platform to secure access to rights, privileges or perks that you were not ethically due would you feel comfortable criticising any living Man you saw doing the same thing - knowing as you do that he will turn on you and happily expose your dirty washing to the Media?
Quite often People are scared to speak out against against corruption, scheming, profiteering and the Criminals operating amongst us for fear of putting their own crooked selves in the Dock.
- It is certainly interesting how the Opposition has taken to NAMA like Ducks to a Water Park.... How many of those Fianna Fail by-a-different-name Crooks have a history in Planning, Zoning, Lending and Petitioning that they'd feel very uncomfortable reading about on the front page of the Irish Times?0 -
Irish voters don't tend to reward honest hard workers or even visionaries, they reward the cute hoors, the charmers and that is why we are where we are.
Sort of sums up what I have been saying . . Couldn't of put it better myself . . . However, the cute hoors aren't limited to FF . . .
Incidentally, part of the reason Kenny's gesture (on pay) was seen as a PR stunt because it was just that . . To of been a real statement of intent he should of gone much much further and as leader of FG he should of been actively/publicly pushing all his colleagues to do so . . Ah, that wouldnt of gone down well in the party . . Exactly, it would of been a real sacrifice for the greater good, risking derision by his own, by looking for them to do the morally appropriate thing . .0 -
Liam Byrne wrote: »
That's incorrect, for a start.
The Greens were voted in on the promise that they wouldn't lie down with FF; once elected, they did just that.
FF are going ahead with NAMA, with little-or-no support from the general public, and apparently there is no way of stopping it. The opposition did their job in this case, giving options in relation to nationalisation and letting the country gain in return for the risk, but FF - including the cowardly con-artists that resigned and still voted with them - ignored that and ploughed ahead with their buddies.
How, exactly, would you propose that the people "disallow" NAMA ?
The only way we can show our disgust in a meaningful way is at the next General Election, at which stage it will be too late.
But if you truly agree that governments cannot impose what people don't want and won't allow, then by all means fill us in on how we can stop this disgusting transfer or wealth.
Look at the OAP's . . Heck look at the public servants . .
Do you think if Hundreds of thousands protested on the streets daily, that NAMA would go through . .
Forgetting whether or not NAMA is the correct way to go, your attitude again highlights the problems with the Irish Persons Psyche (not insulting you, 95% of the population would agree with you!) when it comes to having the country run . . I used to laugh and sneer at the French (who strike whenever they are unhappy about something) but they get what they want . . . Low and behold - http://www.internationalliving.com/Internal-Components/Further-Resources/qofl2009
Irish people have choices, but the problem is they arent interested in fighting for anything that they dont think directly impacts their wages (NAMA indirectly affects us all!) . . Why werent there mass protests about NAMA ? If people got as upset about NAMA as they did about their own wages, there would be no NAMA . Mark my words . .
The people do have the power to make ALL major decisions for this country . . We have all been too busy pointing fingers at others and feeling sorry for ourselves to actually realise that the power of change is in our hands. . Hell if we want an election tomorrow . . Take to the streets . .0 -
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Liam Byrne wrote: »True. Their actions (and inactions) over the years have led me to that opinion.
I was fairly young, but I remember it.
I know it was a general comment, but I had to correct/qualify that - sorry.
I didnt say any of those things you quoted me on ! ! ! !
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I completely disagree . . The only way we will ever get any better out of our politicians is by consistently demanding that they raise the bar, not by comparing them to the worst case scenario alternative . .
When I say have higher expectations, I mean you should demand more (then you realistically expect) from your politician . . Theres nothing wrong with demanding perfection and accepting a decent attempt at it. . Up until now , people are just demanding change (which is asking nothing of the opposition) .
The barometer you propose is an abstract ordinal method of rating performance and while this is a commendable measure it would be uninformative. I agree all parties are performing far below expectations, therefore measuring performance needs to be relative. There is little point comparing parties to an ideal that doesn't exist.
Also I dont simply demand change, I demand it with the expectation of a better performance (even as I have said if its only slightly better). In voting in the opposition I am asking them to do a better job.Incidentally saying the opposition are better then the government is your opinion, not a fact . . (and saying that doesnt make me a pro-FF'r) . .
I completely agree, I was just expressing my optimism, I can't imagine them doing worse and if they performed the same then we would all be screwed so out of optimism I expect them to do better - and in so doing FF will buck up their game to compete...but my point is you need to give them a chance.
Politics needs to work the same way any competition works, the politians strive for power, they achieve it through serving the people to the best of their ability, and so in order for the opposition to claim power they must outperform. We've seen what FF can do now lets give the opposition a chance, and if they don't perform (underperform) then we are totally lost0 -
Incidentally, part of the reason Kenny's gesture (on pay) was seen as a PR stunt because it was just that . . To of been a real statement of intent he should of gone much much further and as leader of FG he should of been actively/publicly pushing all his colleagues to do so . . Ah, that wouldnt of gone down well in the party . . Exactly, it would of been a real sacrifice for the greater good, risking derision by his own, by looking for them to do the morally appropriate thing . .
Have to say I totally agree here - Emergency pay for an emergency crisis. The people at the top regardless of party have been very reluctant to show real leadership here
However using this as a test it is not sensitive to distinguish between the parties in the Dail, none of them showed leadership.
Unfortunately even if you don't like it it must come down to choosing the best of a bad lot. Havng standards for our politicians that none of them currently reach doesn't mean that next election we can disband the Dail until there is a party ready to govern with these standards. Incremental improvements is the best we can expect.0 -
We need to see a cat amongst the pigeons but what pigeons are going to vote for that. Hence voter apathy, there will never be a sea change. But we must punish underperformance or abysmal performance and reward good performce (while all the time demanding more, demanding better). Still the government set the bar, we just respond to this when we get the chance in an election0
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This is a FG weakness in my opinion
www.rte.ie/news/2010/0114/banks.html
There needs to be a mechanism to compel people to attend. Most of those i'd like to see questioned are now retired, Sean Fitz. Michael Fingleton, Patrick Neary. David Drumm is living abroad. What would compel them to show up for questioning? Seanie Fitz cant even be compelled to pay the interest on his loans.
This is a definite weakness compared to the Labour party position but it is a strength compared to FF who didn't want any inquiry in the first place. See Drumpot, its all relative
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Anyhoo.......the footpath directly outside your home, is part of your property. You are responsible. If you are in rented council accomodation, the Council is responsible or the private landlord if that's the case.
However you cannot say, put a dip in the footpath for your car to drive up unless you get Council permission.
In a nutshell; if Council property, the footpath outside the dwelling is the Council's to look after. If Private, it's your's to look after, but you don't own it.
The road is everbody's to use and belongs to the Council, which is why anyone can park outside your house.
On bitching that Fianna B******s aren't doing their job; I think the best move FG & Labour could have done is to show them up by pretty much doing it for them rather than pointing and geering. It's an alternative we need, FF have done a good enough job themselves in showing the public they are nincompoops...that's right I said nincompoops;) We don't need a shower of Schoolyard messers poking fun, we need leaders to take initiative.0 -
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Liam Byrne wrote: »Sincere apologies.....my multi-quote or cut-and-paste went completely awry. No misquoting/misrepresentation intended.
Sorry again.
No Probs . . Thought as much . . Just thought it was funny . . Not the first time I have been misquoted and certainly not the worst . . .
And Laminations, I agree with a lot of what you said . . Just a bit waffled out ! ! !:(0 -
People mention not being FF as being an opposition strength. Some posters have argued against the 'anyone but FF' line of voting. But is there a problem with this strategy or just applying it to FF. In britain would an 'anyone but the BNP' be an acceptable stance? I'm not comparing the two parties, I'm just trying to establish whether the 'anyone but' stance is fundamentally wrong or just unreasonable in the case of FF. If its unreasonable then we differ on the quantification of damage done to this country by FF. Their incompetent governance has wasted the wealthiest years of our country. i think this is unforgiveable at least for the next election or 2.0
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Laminations wrote: »People mention not being FF as being an opposition strength. Some posters have argued against the 'anyone but FF' line of voting. But is there a problem with this strategy or just applying it to FF. In britain would an 'anyone but the BNP' be an acceptable stance? I'm not comparing the two parties, I'm just trying to establish whether the 'anyone but' stance is fundamentally wrong or just unreasonable in the case of FF. If its unreasonable then we differ on the quantification of damage done to this country by FF. Their incompetent governance has wasted the wealthiest years of our country. i think this is unforgiveable at least for the next election or 2.
Does it not scare you, considering how poorly you rate FF, that the opposition havent been able to take advantage (so far) of their incompetence . .
In any given field you can only be as bad as your opponent and the opposition have been shockingly found wanting . . The major reason for their rise in popularity is because of FF's monumental fall . .
This begs the question again, how good will this country actually be off with parties who are "surely not as bad as FF" . . In truth its just not good enough and whether you think its unfair to set high targets for individuals who havent even had a shot in the office, its plain downright crazy not to look for a better opposition, who can offer us more then "not FF" . . We deserve better and we should give ourselves a chance to get better . .0 -
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Does it not scare you, considering how poorly you rate FF, that the opposition havent been able to take advantage (so far) of their incompetence . .
In any given field you can only be as bad as your opponent and the opposition have been shockingly found wanting . . The major reason for their rise in popularity is because of FF's monumental fall . .
This begs the question again, how good will this country actually be off with parties who are "surely not as bad as FF" . . In truth its just not good enough and whether you think its unfair to set high targets for individuals who havent even had a shot in the office, its plain downright crazy not to look for a better opposition, who can offer us more then "not FF" . . We deserve better and we should give ourselves a chance to get better . .
Ehh how can the oposition take advantage ?
Can they usurp the law of the land and remove the ff led government, because as long as ff get the greens and the bought off independents to vote with them then there really is shag all the opposition can do.
Sadly that is the way democracy works.
Maybe if the Irish people actually took to the streets en masse and not just as diverse vested interest groups then we could force the governmnet to resign.
This has actually happened in many countries but Irish people grumble, complain and then head to the pub for a few.
If they do match or protest it is for their vested interest group e.g the farmers, the public sector, the taxi drivers, etc etc.
Thus it is a bit rich to complain it is the oppositions fault for not removing ff government.
Even some go so far as to blame them for not preventing ff form implementing the policies that have gotten us into the mess. :rolleyes:
You talk about us deservijng better opposition, have you ever thought the opposition deserve better from the voters of this country ?
We deserve what we have because we don't look for any better.
Why should the dodgy, the deluded arrogant, the publicly wasteful, the incompetents, the corrupt reform or do any better since they get back in anyway.
It is sad but that is what has happened where tax defaulters, tax avoidance advisors, tax cheats, theives get re-elected.
What message does that send out to anyone half decent thinking of entering politics ?
Yes you still get the few like Goerge Lee who believe that they can make things better but they are in the minority.
Note::
when I say WE above I am talking about the electorate as a whole and not any particular individual, myself especially since I never vote for any of the above type of chancers or for a party that allows them exist in it's midst.
Thus guess what I have never voted ff.I am not allowed discuss …
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I think we live in a state of "hobson's choice". Neither camp is particularly good, nor are we likely to see any future improvement. However, I think FG/Lab are happy as they currently have the support of the popular vote. They also have a huge lead in the polls. They are also allowed snipe from the sidelines as the governmental parties continue to make a bags of things.
I would draw a comparison between the 1982-1987 FG lead government which stagnated the economy. The best they achieved was to bottom out the crisis, and create conditions for steps to start again. In 1987 FF stated that they wouldnt cut anything and would ensure that recipiants of state funds would be shielded. Once they were elected, they began a slash and burn job like nobody would believe. Equally, the newly created social-partnership model is often lamented by lefties as an articulated attack on their power. To qualify these cuts, all Haughey had to say was, "we saw the books, they were bad, and as such we needed to change tack". This did lead to unpopularity, and resulted in FF going against all principles of "single party government" and bed down with the PDs.
The same thing will apply in the next election. FF will be forced to continue their "pro cuts" agenda, and FG/LAB will rally against that. Secretly, FG will know that they will hit hard with cuts, however, like FF in 1987, they wont articulate that. The same will apply to Labour.
The opposition is fairly poor, but this wont save FF. What FF "have been doing" will be irrelevant, as "what they have done" will be of far more interest to the public. There is no way that Ireland inc will be reaping the fruits of ANY recovery by the time political parties start engaging with the public on an election footing. FG will be capable of blaming FF for all that has gone on in the 2007-2012 government, and state that it was necessary due to economic incompetence between 2004-2007.0 -
How many times have FG and Labour had to come in and inherit the mess created by ff.
They had to do it in the early 80s and haughey and his ff boyos (remember these fine upstanding names burke, flynn, ahern) weresniping at them about making cuts.
Lo and behold haughey took over in 1987 and had to make savage cuts to ensure the IMF were not coming in.
Guess what Alan Dukes leading FG sacrificed his own political career to ensure haughey could make the cuts to save the country.
Why should the opposition come in, make all the hard decisions and take the brunt of the public anger and the very probable sniping from ff to be promptly rewarded by the electorate, who like a battered wife always returns to the arms of ff, with decimation at the next election.
Maybe some in the opposition parties want the electorate to see what ff are capable or rather incapable of before they have to take over.
I have a real problem with this attitude . . What you are really saying is that the country is in a mess, the people in power created the mess and are incapable of solving it but yet it is right for the elected and publicly paid politicians in the opposition to sit back and say "Hey, its your mess, you fix it !"
If the opposition truly believe that they can run the country better than the government and help save the country some longer term pain, don't they have an obligation to their voters (and even to the country) to work to get in there as quickly as possible. It's a little too easy to sit on the opposition benches and just throw sh*t at the government all the time.0 -
hallelujajordan wrote: »I have a real problem with this attitude . . What you are really saying is that the country is in a mess, the people in power created the mess and are incapable of solving it but yet it is right for the elected and publicly paid politicians in the opposition to sit back and say "Hey, its your mess, you fix it !"
If the opposition truly believe that they can run the country better than the government and help save the country some longer term pain, don't they have an obligation to their voters (and even to the country) to work to get in there as quickly as possible. It's a little too easy to sit on the opposition benches and just throw sh*t at the government all the time.
FF should know. Thats all they did between 1982-1987, before making the necessary cuts.
We have discussed at length the chances of a General Election. As long as the numbers add up, then the rhetoric of the opposition is irrelevant. We know that turkeys shouldnt vote for Christmas, and in this case the turkeys are the TDs of FF and the Greens. They know that if the government falls, they are screwed.0 -
FF should know. Thats all they did between 1982-1987, before making the necessary cuts.
We have discussed at length the chances of a General Election. As long as the numbers add up, then the rhetoric of the opposition is irrelevant. We know that turkeys shouldnt vote for Christmas, and in this case the turkeys are the TDs of FF and the Greens. They know that if the government falls, they are screwed.
Yes, and we could talk about 25 year old politics for ever . . but possibly more suited to a History forum . .
My point is that the opposition could have pushed harder during 2009 to bring down the government but they didn't because they don't want in ! And those who say fair play, let FF clean up its own mess are simply (if they really believe FF are incapable) refusing their electoral (and moral) obligations.0 -
hallelujajordan wrote: »I have a real problem with this attitude . . What you are really saying is that the country is in a mess, the people in power created the mess and are incapable of solving it but yet it is right for the elected and publicly paid politicians in the opposition to sit back and say "Hey, its your mess, you fix it !"
If the opposition truly believe that they can run the country better than the government and help save the country some longer term pain, don't they have an obligation to their voters (and even to the country) to work to get in there as quickly as possible. It's a little too easy to sit on the opposition benches and just throw sh*t at the government all the time.
Well it would make a change for ff to fix the mess they created, instead of sniping at other parties who usually have to clean up the messes.
What about the governments obligation to the people and the country ?
Seen as they haven't a clue why don't they resign.
It is very easy to sit and throw sh** at the government because, wait for it, they are f***ing useless, arrogant and clueless.
If they were doing their jobs and actaully displaying something along the lines of responsibility and competence then it would make the opposition's job harder to throw the sh**.
As it is the government and particularly it's front bench are sh** magnets par excellence. :rolleyes:hallelujajordan wrote: »Yes, and we could talk about 25 year old politics for ever . . but possibly more suited to a History forum . .
My point is that the opposition could have pushed harder during 2009 to bring down the government but they didn't because they don't want in ! And those who say fair play, let FF clean up its own mess are simply (if they really believe FF are incapable) refusing their electoral (and moral) obligations.
You will find the 25 year old politics are still relevant since we are still paying for them, what with all the tribunals and the planning decisions that have areas of this country screwed up today.
Convenient how ff want to forget about the likes of haughey, lawlor, flynn, burke and of course the most cunning of them all, bertie :rolleyes:
How can the opposition get ff out ?
Well they can have motions of no confidence, but guess what they do not have the numerical advantage to win them.
This is firstly because all the so called fine upstanding ex ffers that so prublicly and bravely resigned on some local issue such as the two Sligo Leitrim sleeveens on the the hospital issue or Wiicklow's joe behan (a man who got lost of donations form builders) suddenly vote with the government come real crunch time.
Then we have the bought off independents who have secret deals that the taxpayers are not allowed know about and lastly we have the yellow party who know that if they leave and there is election called it will mean decimation at the polls.
Thus they won't be able to get their planet saving policies through not to mention get a ministerial or TD pension. :rolleyes:
As long as the ff backbenchers tow the party line, the has beens jump back into bed with the party, the independents look after their own little bit of turf and the yellow party disregard their former principles, then we are stuck with the government we have.
Or maybe Kenny and Gilmore should stage a revolution.
Actaully not bad idea, I will go find some nylon rope and a stool for dealing with the incumbents.I am not allowed discuss …
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Well it would make a change for ff to fix the mess they created, instead of sniping at other parties who usually have to clean up the messes.
What about the governments obligation to the people and the country ?
Seen as they haven't a clue why don't they resign.
Thats a matter of opinion. . . I think the best way to satisfy their obligations is to stay in government and try to effect change. .jmayo wrote:
It is very easy to sit and throw sh** at the government because, wait for it, they are f***ing useless, arrogant and clueless.
If they were doing their jobs and actaully displaying something along the lines of responsibility and competence then it would make the opposition's job harder to throw the sh**.
As it is the government and particularly it's front bench are sh** magnets par excellence. :rolleyes:
You will find the 25 year old politics are still relevant since we are still paying for them, what with all the tribunals and the planning decisions that have areas of this country screwed up today.
Convenient how ff want to forget about the likes of haughey, lawlor, flynn, burke and of course the most cunning of them all, bertie :rolleyes:
How can the opposition get ff out ?
Well they can have motions of no confidence, but guess what they do not have the numerical advantage to win them.
This is firstly because all the so called fine upstanding ex ffers that so prublicly and bravely resigned on some local issue such as the two Sligo Leitrim sleeveens on the the hospital issue or Wiicklow's joe behan (a man who got lost of donations form builders) suddenly vote with the government come real crunch time.
Then we have the bought off independents who have secret deals that the taxpayers are not allowed know about and lastly we have the yellow party who know that if they leave and there is election called it will mean decimation at the polls.
Thus they won't be able to get their planet saving policies through not to mention get a ministerial or TD pension. :rolleyes:
As long as the ff backbenchers tow the party line, the has beens jump back into bed with the party, the independents look after their own little bit of turf and the yellow party disregard their former principles, then we are stuck with the government we have.
Or maybe Kenny and Gilmore should stage a revolution.
Actaully not bad idea, I will go find some nylon rope and a stool for dealing with the incumbents.
Good point, FF have the numbers so they are relatively secure. . . but how hard have the opposition worked to really try to change this situation. Enda Kenny didn't exactly push hard to destabilise the government during the JO'D affair, nor did the opposition push to break up the Green-FF coalition during the renegotiation of the PfG. .
I believe that if Gilmore and Kenny had worked together to form an alternative government during 2009 they may well have gotten the numbers, but they can't work together and they don't want to form an alternative government because it is easier to sit on the sidelines, ignore their electoral obligations and wait for this mess to pass over. .0 -
hallelujajordan wrote: »Thats a matter of opinion. . . I think the best way to satisfy their obligations is to stay in government and try to effect change. .
Except ff haven't really affected change, they have been lagging behind and as even demonstrated by the latest weather they are forever playing catch up when they are finally pushed by media and public into doing soemthing.hallelujajordan wrote: »Good point, FF have the numbers so they are relatively secure. . . but how hard have the opposition worked to really try to change this situation. Enda Kenny didn't exactly push hard to destabilise the government during the JO'D affair, nor did the opposition push to break up the Green-FF coalition during the renegotiation of the PfG. .
I believe that if Gilmore and Kenny had worked together to form an alternative government during 2009 they may well have gotten the numbers, but they can't work together and they don't want to form an alternative government because it is easier to sit on the sidelines, ignore their electoral obligations and wait for this mess to pass over. .
Bulls*** come off it, what will Kenny and Gilmore offer the greens ?
An election that is what.
If the government falls the first thing Kenny, Gilmore, SF want is an ecltion to try and increase their numbers.
FG would hope, as would labour, they could increase numbers so that they have more bargaining power coalition negotitations.
Why shouldn't they.
Should they not call election but instead try and patch together a very fragile coalition which could belly up when the greens are offered more cycle lanes by ff ?
The people do not want the greens so why shoudl FG and Labour ?
Thus the Greens will try and hang on as long as they can, because they know that it is going to be political suicide whenever there is an election.
Ehh you really are showing your ff credentials when you believe that ff's government will resolve the mess and FG/Labours chances will be gone.
Thanks to ff this mess is with us for the coming decade or even decades.
:rolleyes:
The only one ignoring their obligations are the government, they were obliged to look after the best interests of the country and it's people, not the subset that visited them in the Galway tent. :mad:I am not allowed discuss …
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Ehh you really are showing your ff credentials when you believe that ff's government will resolve the mess and FG/Labours chances will be gone.
Thanks to ff this mess is with us for the coming decade or even decades.
:rolleyes: :mad:
Time will tell . . I don't believe the mess needs to be resolved for FF to regain their electability. Memories are short in politics and most voters only care about whats in it for them in the future. . . If FF are able to demonstrate that they have steadied the ship they will recover.
You are probably right about a Green / FG / Lab government but I stand by my position . . there seems to be no concerted effort on the part of Gilmore and Kenny to work together to bring down the government. . . They may regret missed opportunities in the future. .0 -
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In any given field you can only be as bad as your opponent and the opposition have been shockingly found wanting . . The major reason for their rise in popularity is because of FF's monumental fall . .
Not true, you can be as bad as your opponents, worse than your opponents or better than your opponents. I think we have agreed thats it is hard to imagine a worse performance from the opposition. I quite optimistically think they'll will do better because if their performance is simply on par with FF then we are screwed with no one to vote for. And in doing better they will force FF to raise their standards to compete.In truth its just not good enough and whether you think its unfair to set high targets for individuals who havent even had a shot in the office, its plain downright crazy not to look for a better opposition, who can offer us more then "not FF" . . We deserve better and we should give ourselves a chance to get better . .
I don't think its unfair, I think its pointless - like I said setting a very high bar that all parties fail to reach is no way to discriminate between parties. I agree with you that we need to have high standards to which parties aspire to reach but in the reality that all parties fall below this aspirational standard, it is still best practice to vote for the best of a bad lot.hallelujajordan wrote: »Thats a matter of opinion. . . I think the best way to satisfy their obligations is to stay in government and try to effect change. .
Good point, FF have the numbers so they are relatively secure. . . but how hard have the opposition worked to really try to change this situation. Enda Kenny didn't exactly push hard to destabilise the government during the JO'D affair, nor did the opposition push to break up the Green-FF coalition during the renegotiation of the PfG. .
I believe that if Gilmore and Kenny had worked together to form an alternative government during 2009 they may well have gotten the numbers, but they can't work together and they don't want to form an alternative government because it is easier to sit on the sidelines, ignore their electoral obligations and wait for this mess to pass over. .
On your first point yes it is a matter of opinion. Could we get your opinion on whether Roddy Molloy should have been allowed to stay on at FAS to right the wrongs of his complete mismanagement, or whether Patrick Neary having failed as Finacial Regulator should have been allowed continue in the job to 'fulfill his obligations?? You are entitled to your opinion but you are a hypocrite if you only apply it to FF's mismanagement.
On the second point of the opposition doing more to bring about change (someone else described this as taking advantage), what exactly could they have done?? When the opposition move on issues they are accused of 'political point-scoring'. They tabled a motion of no confidence. You complain that 'Kenny didn't exactly push hard to destabilise the government during the JO'D affair' but when Gilmore called for his resignation he was criticised for not giving the man an opportunity to defend himself. So short of planning a coup the opposition can merely point out government ineptitide (which is obvious anywhere you look) and hope that it sparks the electorate into action (i.e. marches, protests). I'd be more worried about the Irish voters and their inability to exclain ' ENOUGH IS ENOUGH' rather than the opposition not having a complete roadmap from 'rags to riches'.hallelujajordan wrote: »Time will tell . . I don't believe the mess needs to be resolved for FF to regain their electability. Memories are short in politics and most voters only care about whats in it for them in the future. . . If FF are able to demonstrate that they have steadied the ship they will recover.
This is nothing more than a sad indictment of irish politics, and although I agree with you, the optimist in me hopes you are wrong0
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