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Opposition parties . . All hot air . .
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hallelujajordan wrote: »Time will tell . . I don't believe the mess needs to be resolved for FF to regain their electability. Memories are short in politics and most voters only care about whats in it for them in the future. . . If FF are able to demonstrate that they have steadied the ship they will recover.
You are probably right about a Green / FG / Lab government but I stand by my position . . there seems to be no concerted effort on the part of Gilmore and Kenny to work together to bring down the government. . . They may regret missed opportunities in the future. .
Sadly you may have a point going on previous elections and how the electorate of this country behave.
It is staggering how bertie, a man who couldn't explain why he had wads of cash, why he didn't have a bank acocunt, who had recieved bags of cash as digout from businessmen was and even worse still lauded as some great man.
Even worse the likes of flynn, lowry are re-elected. :mad:
But hopefully things might be bit different in the future.
ff through inheritance (from their own previous and opposition governments) had a very healthy economy upto 2001, they managed through luck of the cheap credit boom to make it look to some as if we had created an even better economy from 2002 to 2007.
But that was all a facade built on cheap crumbling concrete and imported glass fuelled by imported credit.
Now the best thing that ever happened to the opposition was ff winning last election, because the same ff that supposedly brought the largese to the easily deluded voters is now bringing the savage cuts, the poverty and the hopelessness.
For once ff are having to try and clean up the mess.
And boy did they create a mess, not alone did they base the public spending on the lobsided unsustainable economy they created but they allowed our entire banking system go down the pan and to save it they tied the bloody banks to the stern of the lifeboat.
Imagine a Martyn Turner cartoon where the taxpayers are rowing a lifeboat like bejaysus with a line off the stern tied to the sinking titanic.
To me that sums up bank guarantee, recapitalisation and NAMA.
IMHO the teens (2010 to 2019) are going to be like the 80s with a few big differences.
The Irish people have sampled the trapping of wealth and it is even harder to be without what you have already experienced.
To now be able to have something you never had is not so bad, but to lose all the fineries you were used to is pretty hard.
A lot of our youth never experienced the bad ould days of emigration, no money in their pockets for foreign holidays, for weekends away, for weekends on the booze and for fancy cars.
A lot of these see ff to blame for wasting the wealth, for allowing the their building and banking buddies get and remain rich, all the while they are back on the dole at their mammies trying to find somewhere to emigrate to.
Even worse the middle class are the ones sadled with the bank debts, the public sector was over inflated and so long cossetted that they can't see there is no money and are feeling very vindictive.
All in all, it should make for an electorate that should shun ff for decades.
But, even though you might not admire the guy Kenny wisely pointed out, you never know with the electorate.
That should have addendum about it being the electorate in dear old Ireland.I am not allowed discuss …
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All in all, it should make for an electorate that should shun ff for decades.
It might do but I doubt it . . and, I think with good reason. The reason I say that is because a stranger reading these boards might imagine that FF were running some quasi-dictatorship in Ireland for the last 15-odd years.
The reality is very different. The FF government were endorsed by the electorate three times running because the people liked what they were doing and continually renewed their mandate. Not because they couldn't see the bubble bursting but because the country as a whole went nuts. . . We* all wanted bigger houses, bigger cars, more foreign holidays. . we drank from the cup, we enjoyed it and we have to share collective responsibility for why we are where we are now. If FF hadn't kept our cups overflowing we would have elected an alternative government that would have !
*We = the collective 'we' . . not everyone . . several posters have moved to distance themselves from involvement in the Irish 'hysteria' when I have posted this view on other threads and I fully accept that not everyone went nuts
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hallelujajordan wrote: »It might do but I doubt it . . and, I think with good reason. The reason I say that is because a stranger reading these boards might imagine that FF were running some quasi-dictatorship in Ireland for the last 15-odd years.
The reality is very different. The FF government were endorsed by the electorate three times running because the people liked what they were doing and continually renewed their mandate. Not because they couldn't see the bubble bursting but because the country as a whole went nuts. . . We* all wanted bigger houses, bigger cars, more foreign holidays. . we drank from the cup, we enjoyed it and we have to share collective responsibility for why we are where we are now. If FF hadn't kept our cups overflowing we would have elected an alternative government that would have !
*We = the collective 'we' . . not everyone . . several posters have moved to distance themselves from involvement in the Irish 'hysteria' when I have posted this view on other threads and I fully accept that not everyone went nuts
So, you effectively call the nation selfish and greedy, and believe that it morally validates FF's decisions to hand it to the peiople as "If FF hadn't kept our cups overflowing we would have elected an alternative government that would have ". You are deeming FF to be a completely populist party who will brankrupt a nation if it means they give the people what they want.0 -
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However, the biggest sin would be to accept that they are better then FF because we are so pissed off with the existing government . . Its like getting let down horribly by your longterm girlfriend and meeting somebody on the rebound who is the opposite to your "ex" and assuming its great because "they are everything she isnt" . .
I really like this analogy, mainly because I can turn it around to better suit my argument I think its far worse to lose trust in all girls because of a terrible ex. And what is worse still is knowing now what your ex has done, and knowing there are alternatives out there, knowing all this and still going back to your ex is idiotic and masocistic. Trust underlies both situations. FF have betrayed our trust, yes we may get our hearts broken again by other girls but its far more silly to go back to the one who has a track record as a heart breaker. 0 -
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In fairness if the economy seems to be going great and the government is telling you it's all good, of course your average punter would believe them and vote for them. Hopefully anyone in the future found believing a FF government will be seen as suffering a form of 'Hysteria' by the public at large.hallelujajordan wrote: »The reality is very different. The FF government were endorsed by the electorate three times running because the people liked what they were doing and continually renewed their mandate. Not because they couldn't see the bubble bursting but because the country as a whole went nuts. . . We* all wanted bigger houses, bigger cars, more foreign holidays. . we drank from the cup, we enjoyed it and we have to share collective responsibility for why we are where we are now. If FF hadn't kept our cups overflowing we would have elected an alternative government that would have !
*We = the collective 'we' . . not everyone . . several posters have moved to distance themselves from involvement in the Irish 'hysteria' when I have posted this view on other threads and I fully accept that not everyone went nuts
I don't understand anyone’s loyalty to that party. Why would anyone stick with a party through thick or thin? Is it a matter of misguided honour or loyalty, if so for what? It's politics. It's near impossible to cement yourself to voting for the same party for every election for your entire life, especially that party of crooks. They have a criminal history, foundation, to present day of successive ministers lining their pockets. Makes no sense. Anything good or positive they have every done dwarfs in comparison to all their misdeeds.
Honestly, I assume anyone I meet connected to Fianna Fail is less than trustworthy. It's the impression the party gives off.0 -
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Laminations wrote: »I really like this analogy, mainly because I can turn it around to better suit my argument I think its far worse to lose trust in all girls because of a terrible ex. And what is worse still is knowing now what your ex has done, and knowing there are alternatives out there, knowing all this and still going back to your ex is idiotic and masocistic. Trust underlies both situations. FF have betrayed our trust, yes we may get our hearts broken again by other girls but its far more silly to go back to the one who has a track record as a heart breaker.
But I am not defending FF ,I am attacking the entire culture of politics within the country. . In essence, there's different girls to choose but they are all cut from the same cloth.
One small example . . . Are the opposition any better with regards to the expenses scandal ? They certainly waited until the very last minute before finally demanding JOD's head (and even at that it was with great reluctance) . . There is alot of evidence to support that they didnt believe JOD should resign anymore then FF (as he was "entitled" to it!).
The government of any country will generally follow the mandate that's most important to its people. I am not saying that to take responsibility of actions from FF, but its just a fact of democratically elected governments . . In an earlier debate it was established that Scandinavian politics is the least corrupt in the world because "the people of these countries demand morally sound leaders and vote with their feet". You will not see the Irish People do this. Hell JOD will get back in which says more on the point then anything . .0 -
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hallelujajordan wrote: »It might do but I doubt it . . and, I think with good reason. The reason I say that is because a stranger reading these boards might imagine that FF were running some quasi-dictatorship in Ireland for the last 15-odd years.
The reality is very different. The FF government were endorsed by the electorate three times running because the people liked what they were doing and continually renewed their mandate. Not because they couldn't see the bubble bursting but because the country as a whole went nuts. . . We* all wanted bigger houses, bigger cars, more foreign holidays. . we drank from the cup, we enjoyed it and we have to share collective responsibility for why we are where we are now. If FF hadn't kept our cups overflowing we would have elected an alternative government that would have !
*We = the collective 'we' . . not everyone . . several posters have moved to distance themselves from involvement in the Irish 'hysteria' when I have posted this view on other threads and I fully accept that not everyone went nuts
Glad you put in the disclimaer at the bottom because like a good few posters around here I did not endorse ff, I never have and probably never will as long as they allow liars (perjurors), theives and tax cheats be prominent members.
The government's job is to run the country, they are caretakers of the country, it is their job to make sure the country firstly at least isn't bankrupted through short term policies and secondly that society improves for all in the long term.
That of course would be the ideal.
ff did everything in their power to improve the lot of certain supporting vested interest groups: the developers, builders, bankers, public sector through the public sector dominated unions much vuanted benchmarking.
All of these were the primary beneficaries.
And the rest of us paid through the high costs of goods and services in order to make the above richer in some way.
Look at how ff allowed property investment and thus pushed up average cost of house for FTBs.
Yes most of us got higher wages, but for lots the quality of life did not improve what with longer commutte times, higher cost of childcare, higher cost of housing even when in the ar***** of nowhere.
It is being very presumptious to say the alternative government would be no better.
It is a common red herring flung out by ff in order to justify their own incompetence and greed.
We just don't know what the opposition would be like, but it is doubtful they would be half as bad as ff and their hangers on.
At least some of the opposition parties members were highlighting the wastage, the dodgy tax breaks for property specualtion, the tax breaks for developers, etc.
ff pandered to everyone and anyone that would ensure they continued in power and they organised it so that their supporters could get even richer.
That is not running the country, that is not true government.
That is Zanu type politics, using the resources of the country to further your own and your supporters power and wealth.
Their total inability to govern has now been shown in how inadeqautely they deal with even the smallest of difficulties now that they no longer have wads of cash to throw at the problems.Am I to extrapolate for that is the FG/LAB would have bought into the property bubble, because the people wanted the extra money ?
Its an appalling indictment that you seek to mitigate Governmental incompetence by citing the fact that FF were just carrying out orders. The fact that many of the Nazis were simply carrying out orders doesnt mitigate the atrocity of what they "achieved". (I am in NO way trying to draw a parallel between the two parties, im simply pointing out a fatal flaw in your argument)
Leadership entails taking the bull by the horns, and ensuring that those who cannot lead themselves, or are incapbale of personal leadership, are given adequate guidance. Using the lack of economic nous of the public to create a banking and construction crisis, and then seeking to blame these idiots is crazy. Had the FF led government been engagin with regulator, or were not so obsessed with the short term lucrative nature of the construction industry to call the regulator out on his ignorance of Irish banking practices.
Should the Government blindly carry out the will of the public, even if the public will is to the long term detriment of the nation ??????
ff ala bertie only cared how they could be elected next time.
They never had any long term plans bar how to achieve power at the next poll.
Hence mcgreevey was gotten rid of after 2004 local and European elections and clowen put in his place.I agree and disagee with different parts ..
I agree there is certainly responsibility on the part of the government in the scandal that has befallen the country . . I also think they have an awful lot to answer for (and wont be happy until heads roll!).
Your assumption that FG/Labour would'nt of gone along with the Bubble is about as presumptuous as assuming that they would . . .
That aside, what role do you think the public should play in this opera ?
You see, everybody knows the role government played in our downfall, but the pink elephant in the room is that while the financial stability of the country was being underpinned by the bubble, nobody did anything about it . .
In truth, the people of this country are just as much to blame for the state of the country as the government . . To try to pin all the problems on the country is like investing all your life savings in a Bond with a very reputable company , not asking any questions for years and then wondering why it all went belly up . .
I think we will end up in groundhog decades until we grow up as a nation and start voting in MORE credible, strong & intelligent candidates . . Seriously, some of the T.D's we have, I wouldnt trust them to clean my toilet . .
And for those who say the opposition havent gotten their chance in power yet . . Seriously . . They have failed miserably as opposition party's, how in anyway does that make them credible leaders of the country ?
We have seen what FF do when allowed to get into the JOD comfort Zone, but why does that mean that the opposition we have at the moment deserve a chance in power ? They have not inspired me at all in opposition . .
I suppose the questions I would ask (which is what everybody should ask before every election) is -- What qualities/skills are they bringing to the table ?
- What are their major achievements in opposition ?
- What has been their consistent stance on vitally important area's of government that would of benefited us in the long term (not what did they say they would of done after something bad already happened!) . .
- Why did they fail to make inroads into FF (to a significant degree) in the last elections ?
- Why couldnt they help us see the ill's of our decision in letting FF have the keys to the ferrari for too long ?
Still think there are alot of question marks over the opposition party (like there always is in people who havent had power). . However, the biggest sin would be to accept that they are better then FF because we are so pissed off with the existing government . . Its like getting let down horribly by your longterm girlfriend and meeting somebody on the rebound who is the opposite to your "ex" and assuming its great because "they are everything she isnt" . .
What you want is to make a choice for the right party/candidate for the right reasons. Otherwise in many cases we will get completely stupid/ludicrous people getting into the Dail at the expense of better candidates . . That just doesn't make sense to anybody remotely intelligent . .
Disclaimer . . I am not promoting people to vote for FF . . I am simply asking people to take responsibility for their vote and to vote sensibly as opposed to voting in anger . .
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If you do look back, the opposition may have been at ff for not spending enough money, but often you will find they were looking for it to be spent in certain areas and for the grand ego projects and wastage to be wiped out.
The more you claim you are not trying to get people to vote ff the more your arguments appear to be exactly doing that.
I just love it when people berate the opposition for not doing enough in warning them.
In this posters ar right that a lot of the Irish people did not want to know, they were all doing all right jack so bog off mentality.
When they hammered bertie on his personal finances they were hit in the polls so they then stopped as it was hurting them more than him.
Go figure :rolleyes:
FFS vote sensibly as opposed to vote in anger.
What the f*** is that supposed to mean ?
Either way you would not vote for ff and it's incompetent arrogant wasters.
FG, and Kenny in particular, might not be viewed as brilliant, but have they sunk the country, have they used the country as their own private feed trough to get their friends rich ?
No they haven't and as opposed to what so called objective posters and ff supporters claim, they have brought counter proposals to the table about how things should be run.
One huge initiative is their health proposal, another is about setting up state bank (ala the old ACC and ICC banks) to invest in private business and enterprise, rather than waiting on the private banks to decide to bother lending again (after they get even more recapitalisation).
What are ff proposals on this, ah shure we will continue as we are and shure everything will work out when the prices of property go back up and the US economy takes off. :rolleyes:
Yet they berate FG and indeed Labour for not having all the answers.
FFS ff and their fellow travellers have no bloody answers at all and they have the entire appartus of the state at their disposal.
Then again the Dept of Finance aren't very good at budgeting, the CB couldn't spot bank over lending not having enough capital and IFSRA probably couldn't even see anything wrong with Bernie Maddoff's ponzi scheme even after he was found guilty.I am not allowed discuss …
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The reason i may seem frustrated and exercised about this and i give the odd extreme example is because i do blame the electorate. I blame the people who supported FF and gave them a mandate. And what depresses me more than the government is those who support them. Like Drumpot said, JO'D will probably be reelected. Thats a sad indictment of our electorate. If people keep voting for clowns we get left with a circus so thats why the focus of a lot of my points is on the continuing support for FF. If George Lee creamed the system if and when he gets into government, he would never get my vote again, despite all the good he might do (and for the fact he doesn't run in my constituency ) 0
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hallelujajordan wrote: »It might do but I doubt it . . and, I think with good reason. The reason I say that is because a stranger reading these boards might imagine that FF were running some quasi-dictatorship in Ireland for the last 15-odd years.
The reality is very different. The FF government were endorsed by the electorate three times running because the people liked what they were doing and continually renewed their mandate. Not because they couldn't see the bubble bursting but because the country as a whole went nuts. . . We* all wanted bigger houses, bigger cars, more foreign holidays. . we drank from the cup, we enjoyed it and we have to share collective responsibility for why we are where we are now. If FF hadn't kept our cups overflowing we would have elected an alternative government that would have !
*We = the collective 'we' . . not everyone . . several posters have moved to distance themselves from involvement in the Irish 'hysteria' when I have posted this view on other threads and I fully accept that not everyone went nuts
If you accept that ' not everyone' went nuts, then stop using the collective ' we'.
FF got approx 43% of the vote in 2007 ... clearly the majority of irish people did not vote for FF's Greed is Good' mantra. Nor were the majority of Irish people in a position to analyse and digest whatever economic information was in the public areana and FF were certainly not honest about the economic realities. At the previous election , it was proven that FF had not admitted about cut backs before the election.0 -
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