Opposition parties . . All hot air . .

jmayo

hallelujajordan wrote: »

...

I'm not asking anyone to disregard the past and nor will I, but I will vote in the next election based on my assessment of who I believe are the party best positioned to lead the next government. At the moment, as you know, I believe that is Fianna Fail. I make that assessment based largely on what the current Cowen-led administration did over the past 18 months or so and are continuing to do. I make it based on the fact that I don't see a stable alternative offering anything better or even different (Back on topic - after all this thread is about the opposition, not another chance to have a dig at FF). I know you don't agree with me and I know you will dismiss my views as blind party loyalty but you don't know me and actually such assertions couldn't be further from the truth. I have no real history with or loyalty to FF but right now I am a member and a supporter.

The difference in your football analogy is that we have already changed the manager, the treasurer and many in the team and we have begun to creep back up towards the third division. . Any footballer will tell you that it is unwise to change a team who are already on the road to recovery.
...

aH FFS stop the BS.
You will vote ff come hell or high waterand stop this faffing that you will vote for the best party.

Ehh you say right now you are a member of ff and a supporter.
May I ask when you did join ?

Can I ask you how in all fairness how you can join and organisation that has condoned, nay supported by their very inaction, the following;

• leaders who have defrauded the state
• leaders who can not adequately explain the fact they did not pocess a bank account whilst holding the highest financial office in the government and yet who had wads of foriegn currency being lodged in various banks accounts by underlings
• ministers who have corrupted the planning process and corruptly obtained property
• admission of people who faciliated tax evaders
• tax evading members
• ministers who remain in office even though it appears they have prejured themselves in a lawcourt of this state

On your football analogy Team ireland is not on the road to recovery.
We are languishing threading water in the relegation zone having already dropped a couple of divisions.
Road to recovery me ar**.
We will have to flog off anything we can to bring costs back in line.

The manager who was the treasurer and oversaw the overspending is in charge.
BTW did Leeds Utd actually do that after their disastourous overspending years ?
Ehhh NO they didn't.

The cleaning lady was put in charge of jump starting new activities that will keep people working at the club and bring in fresh revenue.
Even worse she is actaully second in charge the assistant manager.

The defense coach, well we all know he is economical or forgetful when it comes to telling the truth. He claims we have the best defense in Europe and he is off to Austin to beg an American Football team for a line backer.

The person in charge of the players health is never responsible and is the worse advertisement for health and fitness they could find.

The treasurer didn't bother reading a few important contracts when he first got the job and thus the club signed a one legged player for a record club amount.
He has improved a bit, but the manager stills gets in his way especially when he decided a way of saving money was to ask some of the players not to bother playing on three saturdays in November.

The groundkeeper is all for sowing new environmentally friendlier grass, but forgot to keep the pitch covered and heated so that there were no matches over christmas and thus huge loss of revenue.
His colleague had disappeared to Malta at the time.

The guy in charge of keeping the lights on is trying out new lightbulbs and new broadband for the website.
He swears that the new wind turbines (and backup hamster wheels) will prove relaible in keeping the floodlights on.
Sadly two matches were called off by ref when the wind died and the backup hamsters were eaten by the health and fitness manager.
Oh and the broadband was so slow that no one could connect to see what the new strip was like. Thus the new eshop opening was a disaster.

And to add even more woes the main management sponsors are sueing each other over the failure of the new ground purchase and sale of apartments on old polluted ground.
One of them was even seen in tears on the telly while naother opened supermarket in one of his hotels.

Now aren't you glad yopu brought up the football analogy ?

anymore wrote: »

That comment is as offensive as it is inaccurate. It is however consistent with the blatant refusal of FF to take responsibility for their actions, This economy has been brought to the brink of destruction for the sole purpose of holding on to power. The rank and file FF members are as culpable as the FF ministers.

Well said.

hallelujajordan wrote: »

You accuse me of offense and inaccuracy but yet do nothing to demonstrate either . . .

If you read my posts you will find that I am happy to take responsibility for whatever part I (as a FF member, voter and supporter) played in creating the current situation. As I have also said in the past I believe that the only way to take responsibility is to work to change the situation . . I believe that is exactly what the current government is doing. . . but if you believe that responsibility rests solely on FF then you are mistaken and you will be dissapointed to see that the country will not magically turn around once they exit government.

Look, the country went mental. Property developers could not have borrowed huge sums of money to build unnecessary properties all over the country if there were not people trying to make a quick buck buying up 2,3 or more properties to rent to the casual labour force from Eastern Europe who were building them. . . and if you think that they were all FF voters and supporters then frankly you have your head in the clouds .. I know 2 or 3 of them and none of them support FF !!

Feel free to disagree with me and debate the facts but don't accuse me of offense, inaccuracy or failure to accept responsibility unless you have something to back it up. . . and don't just dismiss me by popping me into your "rank and file FF" bucket. . it's a bit of a lame argument.

Yes lots of people, ff voters and other party voters jumped headlong onto the proeprty gravy train.
I don't think anyone is denying that, but ff are denying that they were the ones, together with their fellow K clubber and Galway tent dwellers, fuelling that bloody property train and building up even more pressue.
Eventually the boiler burst and the whole thing has gone off the rails taking the smucks who climbed abroard with it.

IMHO you have failed to accept responsibility by remaining a ff supporter when your party have sunk this country through the policies they enacted over the last 12 years and through their inaction in stopping our economy becoming a get rich quick scheme for their banking and developing supporters.

hallelujajordan

Laminations wrote: »

1. You are not happy to take responsibility as a voter because you intend to vote for FF again.

2. The best and quickest way to take responsibility (to change the situation as you say) is to vote in a new government. Its all well and good wanting to change FF (even though its not- see point 3) but they wont be changed in 2yrs by the time of the next election and you'll still vote for them. What would they have to do to lose your vote?

3. You admirably claim to be working to change FF. Out of all the parties in politics you still chose to join FF. How can the young blood in FF expect to change a party when they've shown such low standards as to join them? Why would i ever trust you? You are backing the wrong horse here, showing a huge error in judgment. If you wanted to affect change in politics you would have been better starting a new party or joining one that wasn't rotten to the core. How are FF rotten to the core? Well they still have their core vote.

How incredibly arrogant of you to determine that your opinions are so right and proper and that anyone that disagrees with you is wrong (or showing a huge error in judgement). . ! How arrogant to determine that anyone who supports FF is refusing to accept responsibility for the situation the country is in.

How dare you accuse me of having low standards. You don't know anything about me.

Why is it that every single thread on the politics forum lately is descending into . .

1. Let's bash FF
2. Let's stereotype anyone who indicates support for FF into the 'rotten core vote' category and bash them too.

It really is getting boring.

hallelujajordan

jmayo wrote: »

aH FFS stop the BS.
You will vote ff come hell or high waterand stop this faffing that you will vote for the best party.

Ehh you say right now you are a member of ff and a supporter.
May I ask when you did join ?


Can I ask you how in all fairness how you can join and organisation that has condoned, nay supported by their very inaction, the following;

• leaders who have defrauded the state
• leaders who can not adequately explain the fact they did not pocess a bank account whilst holding the highest financial office in the government and yet who had wads of foriegn currency being lodged in various banks accounts by underlings
• ministers who have corrupted the planning process and corruptly obtained property
• admission of people who faciliated tax evaders
• tax evading members
• ministers who remain in office even though it appears they have prejured themselves in a lawcourt of this state

On your football analogy Team ireland is not on the road to recovery.
We are languishing threading water in the relegation zone having already dropped a couple of divisions.
Road to recovery me ar**.
We will have to flog off anything we can to bring costs back in line.

The manager who was the treasurer and oversaw the overspending is in charge.
BTW did Leeds Utd actually do that after their disastourous overspending years ?
Ehhh NO they didn't.

The cleaning lady was put in charge of jump starting new activities that will keep people working at the club and bring in fresh revenue.
Even worse she is actaully second in charge the assistant manager.

The defense coach, well we all know he is economical or forgetful when it comes to telling the truth. He claims we have the best defense in Europe and he is off to Austin to beg an American Football team for a line backer.

The person in charge of the players health is never responsible and is the worse advertisement for health and fitness they could find.

The treasurer didn't bother reading a few important contracts when he first got the job and thus the club signed a one legged player for a record club amount.
He has improved a bit, but the manager stills gets in his way especially when he decided a way of saving money was to ask some of the players not to bother playing on three saturdays in November.

The groundkeeper is all for sowing new environmentally friendlier grass, but forgot to keep the pitch covered and heated so that there were no matches over christmas and thus huge loss of revenue.
His colleague had disappeared to Malta at the time.

The guy in charge of keeping the lights on is trying out new lightbulbs and new broadband for the website.
He swears that the new wind turbines (and backup hamster wheels) will prove relaible in keeping the floodlights on.
Sadly two matches were called off by ref when the wind died and the backup hamsters were eaten by the health and fitness manager.
Oh and the broadband was so slow that no one could connect to see what the new strip was like. Thus the new eshop opening was a disaster.

And to add even more woes the main management sponsors are sueing each other over the failure of the new ground purchase and sale of apartments on old polluted ground.
One of them was even seen in tears on the telly while naother opened supermarket in one of his hotels.

Now aren't you glad yopu brought up the football analogy ?




Well said.



Yes lots of people, ff voters and other party voters jumped headlong onto the proeprty gravy train.
I don't think anyone is denying that, but ff are denying that they were the ones, together with their fellow K clubber and Galway tent dwellers, fuelling that bloody property train and building up even more pressue.
Eventually the boiler burst and the whole thing has gone off the rails taking the smucks who climbed abroard with it.

IMHO you have failed to accept responsibility by remaining a ff supporter when your party have sunk this country through the policies they enacted over the last 12 years and through their inaction in stopping our economy becoming a get rich quick scheme for their banking and developing supporters.

The footballing analogy was Liam Byrnes, not mine but your extension of it certainly made me chuckle . . . I cannot begin to respond because some of your comparisons were a little too abstract for me . . . pretty sure I disagree with some of it though !


Look, I think your last comment hits the nail on the head. You and others on here believe that because of your view on the past being a member of FF is not a valid position and showing support for FF renders one devoid of any credibility. . .

I get that, I understand why you might feel that way but I don't agree and I think your's is a pretty arrogant position to take.

I don't expect you to agree with me but I do expect you to respect my right to hold an opinion . .

And by the way . . these kind of comments. .

jmayo wrote:

You will vote ff come hell or high waterand stop this faffing that you will vote for the best party.

. . a) seek to undermine my opinion by bucketing me as a died-in-the-wool-FFer and b) indicate that in some respect you know me. . you don't . . so don't make assumptions about what I may or may not do in the future . .

Can we get back to political debate ?

jmayo

hallelujajordan wrote: »

The footballing analogy was Liam Byrnes, not mine but your extension of it certainly made me chuckle . . . I cannot begin to respond because some of your comparisons were a little too abstract for me . . . pretty sure I disagree with some of it though !


Look, I think your last comment hits the nail on the head. You and others on here believe that because of your view on the past being a member of FF is not a valid position and showing support for FF renders one devoid of any credibility. . .

I get that, I understand why you might feel that way but I don't agree and I think your's is a pretty arrogant position to take.

I don't expect you to agree with me but I do expect you to respect my right to hold an opinion . .

And by the way . . these kind of comments. .



. . a) seek to undermine my opinion by bucketing me as a died-in-the-wool-FFer and b) indicate that in some respect you know me. . you don't . . so don't make assumptions about what I may or may not do in the future . .

Can we get back to political debate ?

What I find incredible is that people, who in every other respect appear law abiding upstanding honest people, can somehow manage to condone the cr** that ff have done and the cr** they continue to do.
It is unbelievable that ff members can actaully often see no wrong with the party.
Eventually some do appear to voice concerns and condemm the likes of haughey, bruke, lawlor and bertie.
Even worse others appear to still laud these individuals as some great party men.
Another poster here, OscarBravo, often says the Irish voters are like the battered wife, they go back to ff in the end.
I agree but that does not explain the actual members and died in the wool grassroots.

Well I actually think that ff members & supporters are like family members who no matter what will defend the family.
Some of them in private might not like the way uncle ray was a crook (now ostracised from family get togethers), uncle bertie may have done a few dodgy deals and pockets a few quid on the side, aunty mary is bit batty and a waste of space, the patriach himself brian has blown the family fortune and now is totally out of his depth, but it would be bad to publily admit any of this.
Of course the family have hangers on and even though these may start off as being upright and decent they end up being co-opted into all the schemes and shenanigans.
Eventually they are seen by the ouside world as being as bad as the family.

You are right I don't know you, but I do know enough ffers who exhibit the same traits time and again.
And you are right I respect your right to hold an opinion (part of living in free society), but by God I don't respect the actual opinion.

hallelujajordan

jmayo wrote: »

What I find incredible is that people, who in every other respect appear law abiding upstanding honest people, can somehow manage to condone the cr** that ff have done and the cr** they continue to do.
It is unbelievable that ff members can actaully often see no wrong with the party.
Eventually some do appear to voice concerns and condemm the likes of haughey, bruke, lawlor and bertie.
Even worse others appear to still laud these individuals as some great party men.
Another poster here, OscarBravo, often says the Irish voters are like the battered wife, they go back to ff in the end.
I agree but that does not explain the actual members and died in the wool grassroots.

Well I actually think that ff members & supporters are like family members who no matter what will defend the family.
Some of them in private might not like the way uncle ray was a crook (now ostracised from family get togethers), uncle bertie may have done a few dodgy deals and pockets a few quid on the side, aunty mary is bit batty and a waste of space, the patriach himself brian has blown the family fortune and now is totally out of his depth, but it would be bad to publily admit any of this.
Of course the family have hangers on and even though these may start off as being upright and decent they end up being co-opted into all the schemes and shenanigans.
Eventually they are seen by the ouside world as being as bad as the family.

You are right I don't know you, but I do know enough ffers who exhibit the same traits time and again.
And you are right I respect your right to hold an opinion (part of living in free society), but by God I don't respect the actual opinion.

This entire post demonstrates the problem I have on here. . You undermine or condemn my opinions based on your view of what makes a typical FF-er . . . rather than just addressing my opinions and comments for what they are . . .

It's like you lose the right to hold and express an opinion once you admit you are a member of FF.

Liam Byrne

hallelujajordan wrote: »

Why is it that every single thread on the politics forum lately is descending into . .

1. Let's bash FF
2. Let's stereotype anyone who indicates support for FF into the 'rotten core vote' category and bash them too.

It really is getting boring.

What's getting really boring is having posts dissed as "bashing" when all they are doing is stating the facts.

You've claimed that you will vote FF despite everything that they've done, claimed that they are best positioned to lead us out of the mess that they got us into.

The question is : why do you think / claim this ?

And how much damage would they have to do for you to think that it was too much ? Ruining the economy doesn't seem to be enough. Mortgaging the future on a speculative gamble doesn't seem to be enough. Wasting billions doesn't seem to be enough. Condoning corruption doesn't seem to be enough. Abdicating responsibility doesn't seem to be enough.

What WOULD be enough to make you not vote for them ?

Laminations

hallelujajordan wrote: »

How incredibly arrogant of you to determine that your opinions are so right and proper and that anyone that disagrees with you is wrong (or showing a huge error in judgement). . ! How arrogant to determine that anyone who supports FF is refusing to accept responsibility for the situation the country is in.

How dare you accuse me of having low standards. You don't know anything about me.

Why is it that every single thread on the politics forum lately is descending into . .

1. Let's bash FF
2. Let's stereotype anyone who indicates support for FF into the 'rotten core vote' category and bash them too.

It really is getting boring.

Calling me arrogant doesn't admonish you of irresponsibility. How pray tell are you accepting responsibility?? And like jmayo, I respect your right to an opinion but it doesn't mean your opinion is right. The whole point of debate is to argue the interpretation of facts. Even in science where facts are a great deal more concrete there are still differing opinions. Likewise we couldn't debate in the absence of facts. You cannot argue that zorgjitters are not the best kind of lolligogs. So your opinion must be based on facts or at least your interpretation of facts determines your opinion - this leaves your opinion open to criticism.

Please can you enlighten us all as to what facts you may possess as to how and why FF are the best party for this country's future?? Explain how your interpretation of our situation leads you to the conclusion that FF has anything good to offer? or that FF shouldn't be punished in the election for what they have done in the past (and indeed continue to do).

And I couldn't care less how long you have been a member. I don't need to know anything else about you other than you choose FF. If you wanted to affect political change (for the good of the country) then why choose the most corrupt and wretched party to allign yourself with. The one that will need most work to reform....

Ah yes, but sure thats FF policy, look at Anglo, plough in the most resources into the bank that is the most morally and financially bankrupt, try and save the one that is least worthy of saving. And out of all their reform of Anglo what do you think will happen to Seanie Fitz? to David Drumm? to any of the board??

After your reform of FF what do you suggest happens to Bertie, to Beverly Flynn, to Willie O Dea?? Could we get your opinion on these fine pillars of FF.

Oh and getting back on thread here are some of the opposition policies FF would like us to believe dont exist (borrowed from sulmac off another thread about FINE GAELS vision of political reform)

Sulmac wrote: »

To be fair to Fine Gael, their site has a very useful section on "Issues" showing policy documents for most of the main political issues affecting the country, including those you mentioned.

They have quite good policy documents on economic recovery (NewERA), the banking crisis (National Recovery Bank), the health service (FairCare, with its own site), third level funding (The Third Way), local government reform (Power to the People, which I presume will be developed further in this set of proposals) and public transport (Bus Competition), among others. All these are quite explicit on their site but I think they really need to make them all more publicized (perhaps by having frequent newspaper advertising, for instance) to get their message across.

I think political reform is part of their greater "Change" (Obama-esque or what?) agenda, and is to be welcomed.

Like Liam says, our bashing is stating facts or at least giving the facts that underlie this interpretation. What facts do you have to counter our claims??

rcecil

Fighting between the right wing parties is a joke. It's all about economics and there is little difference in any of the major parties. They all support a form of "FREE" market economics. Free for who? I used to have some respect for the Greens but their coalition has destroyed any possible changes.
Sinn Fein is the only opposition party that works for my interests.

Shea O'Meara

Fianna Fail are best bull**** artists on the political landscape. That is why people, not directly related/benefiting monetarily vote for them regardless of their incompetence or criminality. It's that simple.

Laminations

rcecil wrote: »

Fighting between the right wing parties is a joke. It's all about economics and there is little difference in any of the major parties. They all support a form of "FREE" market economics. Free for who? I used to have some respect for the Greens but their coalition has destroyed any possible changes.
Sinn Fein is the only opposition party that works for my interests.

What are your interets? Sinn Feins economic policies are barmy. Also they collect cop killers from prison, fight for the rights of IRA prisoners, couldn't come out and say the murder of an innocent man was wrong, contain members who were former terrorists and have an overriding policy of a united ireland above all else. Their 'young blood' like Mary Lou were supposed to change the face of Sinn Fein but the fact that the young blood chose Sinn Fein overrides any changes they may make (unless of course they try to reform everything that SF stands for). FF have now become as unpalatable in my eyes.

Liam Byrne

Laminations wrote: »

What are your interets? Sinn Feins economic policies are barmy.

Aside from your other perfectly valid points, I have to at least partially defend rcecil on this point.

Barmy economic policies have not excluded people in the past (or present).

anymore

hallelujajordan wrote: »

You accuse me of offense and inaccuracy but yet do nothing to demonstrate either . . .

If you read my posts you will find that I am happy to take responsibility for whatever part I (as a FF member, voter and supporter) played in creating the current situation. As I have also said in the past I believe that the only way to take responsibility is to work to change the situation . . I believe that is exactly what the current government is doing. . . but if you believe that responsibility rests solely on FF then you are mistaken and you will be disappointed to see that the country will not magically turn around once they exit government.

Look, the country went mental. Property developers could not have borrowed huge sums of money to build unnecessary properties all over the country if there were not people trying to make a quick buck buying up 2,3 or more properties to rent to the casual labour force from Eastern Europe who were building them. . . and if you think that they were all FF voters and supporters then frankly you have your head in the clouds .. I know 2 or 3 of them and none of them support FF !!

Feel free to disagree with me and debate the facts but don't accuse me of offense, inaccuracy or failure to accept responsibility unless you have something to back it up. . . and don't just dismiss me by popping me into your "rank and file FF" bucket. . it's a bit of a lame argument.

Your basic tactic, as with some many FFers, is to say " " We all went mad " but I am willing to stand up and take my share of the responsibility " The inference is that those who do not agree and stand up and take their share of the blame are really the ones we should be looking at, that their culpability is somehow greater than those who actually held the reins of power.
It is a rather transparent and threadbare tactic and one best suited to occasions such as the Ard Fheis when the massed ranks -( kinda reminds me of the pre war Nuremberg Rallies) cheer wildly and raise the roof and indulge in the kind of hysteria that makes sober examination of the facts impossible even in the unlikely event that any FF member was interested in facts - it doesn't need to be said what happened the last group who seriously challenged the prevailing orthodoxy.
Now for examples of how FF, and FF alone, stoked the bonfires that have caused such a conflagration in our economy. FF were asked to take action against the greedy investors who were block booking houses and apartments on new developments by simply putting down multiple deposits when the units were simply drawings on plans and then selling on the houses and apartments when they were almost complete. This was driving prices through the roof and squeezing ordinary people out of the market.
I will leave it to you to tell me what FF did !
AS for the casual workers from Eastern Europe, what Government opened up our labour markers to the accession countries, unlike many of our EU neighbours ?........Yes the Developers and Landlords Political wing : Fianna Fail !
By the way what party does multiple property owner Frank Fahy belong to ? How many properties does he own ? And what Taoiseach owns rental properties here and in the UK ? How much did Charlie McCreevy borrow from what financial institution ?
I am sorry if you offended by being ranked in the ' Rank and File'. Have you managed to raise above the rank and file level in the short period you have been a member Are you a Party Secretary or something more exalted ?

anymore

Let me help Hall... out by providing the link to the Dail Register of Interests :
http://www.oireachtas.ie/viewdoc.asp?DocID=11429

Goodness Frank Fahy seems to have property interests in some many countires !
And wasn't Brian clever not to rely entirely on the dodgy Irish Property market ! Maybe he knew something we didnt ! No mad insanity here in putting all your eggs in the irish property !
And arent English students lucky to have our Taoiseach providing 'cosy' digs for them ? I wonder what DeValera would have thought of an Irsh FF Taoiseach propping up the property market of the 'Ancient Enemy ' ?
Its all very singing ' A Nation Once Again ' whilst you are throwing back the pints, but make sure you have an investment in Her Majesty's Realm !

anymore

Laminations wrote: »

What are your interets? Sinn Feins economic policies are barmy. Also they collect cop killers from prison, fight for the rights of IRA prisoners, couldn't come out and say the murder of an innocent man was wrong, contain members who were former terrorists and have an overriding policy of a united ireland above all else. Their 'young blood' like Mary Lou were supposed to change the face of Sinn Fein but the fact that the young blood chose Sinn Fein overrides any changes they may make (unless of course they try to reform everything that SF stands for). FF have now become as unpalatable in my eyes.

Just for the record you can follow this link to find out what FF and FG and Lab politicians have opposed the extradition of Sean Garland to the US and see the various County Councils and City Councils who have passed motions on the issue :
http://www.seangarland.org/id37.html

hallelujajordan

Liam Byrne wrote: »

The opposition parties are poor, there's no doubt. And I'd much prefer a strong, ethical, fair-minded, responsible government.

But since that's not available, ethical and fair-minded will do me.

You mean these ethical and fair-minded guys ?

hallelujajordan

anymore wrote: »

Your basic tactic, as with some many FFers, is to say " " We all went mad " but I am willing to stand up and take my share of the responsibility " The inference is that those who do not agree and stand up and take their share of the blame are really the ones we should be looking at, that their culpability is somehow greater than those who actually held the reins of power.

I never said or even inferred that . . I have been clear in my view that responsibility for this mess rests in lots of different areas - including the government but also including the collective populace that reaped the Celtic Tiger for all they could . . and this collective does not belong solely to FF . . . I have also been clear that I believe the appropriate way to take responsibility is to work to bring about change, as FF are doing and as the opposition parties propose to do.

anymore wrote:

It is a rather transparent and threadbare tactic and one best suited to occasions such as the Ard Fheis when the massed ranks -( kinda reminds me of the pre war Nuremberg Rallies) cheer wildly and raise the roof and indulge in the kind of hysteria that makes sober examination of the facts impossible even in the unlikely event that any FF member was interested in facts - it doesn't need to be said what happened the last group who seriously challenged the prevailing orthodoxy.

I usually exit the debate at the point at which Nazi comparisons begin . . . I find it laughable that you accuse me of being offensive and then make such comments.

anymore wrote:

I am sorry if you offended by being ranked in the ' Rank and File'. Have you managed to raise above the rank and file level in the short period you have been a member Are you a Party Secretary or something more exalted ?

I'm not offended by being in the rank and file. I'm irritated when I am treated as if I represent all of the views that you guys associate with the rank and file. . I only represent my own views. . and happen to be a member of FF.

Liam Byrne

hallelujajordan wrote: »

You mean these ethical and fair-minded guys ?

I didn't mention any specific ones (anyone ethical and fair would be worth considering at this stage) and I definitely wasn't referring to the "Not Found" party......

Would that be the one whereby Bertie went up the trees looking for proof of Ray Burke's innocence ?

Or maybe - on mature recollection - your link is apt; maybe a truly ethical and fair-minded party hasn't yet been founded in this state; if that's the case, I'll gladly go for the lesser of two or three evils.

hallelujajordan

Liam Byrne wrote: »

I didn't mention any specific ones, and I definitely wasn't referring to the "Not Found" party......

Would that be the one whereby Bertie went up the trees looking for proof of Ray Burke's innocence ?

Or maybe - on mature recollection - your link is apt; maybe a truly ethical and fair-minded party hasn't yet been founded in this state; if that's the case, I'll gladly go for the lesser of two or three evils.

Link is fixed. . you referred to the opposition, which I take to mean FG/LAB . . if not, please clarify . .

Liam Byrne

hallelujajordan wrote: »

Link is fixed. . you referred to the opposition, which I take to mean FG/LAB . . if not, please clarify . .

I referred to ethical and fair-minded, and I've previously stated that my vote is completely up for grabs for anyone on that basis, obviously taking competence and track record into account.

Since FG & Labour obviously qualify more than FF & their Greens, then great - at least I have an option.

If someone - or some party - qualifies more than FG or Labour, then they'll get my vote instead.

Whether it's a party candidate or an independent, they'll have to prove that they won't do a Greens on it and prop up FF; I'll nearly require that in a signed letter from them at this stage, after the Green's stunt last election.

So when you "took it to mean FG/LAB", you were wrong. Anyone as long as they reflect my views and ethics, and if someone doesn't match those fully it will obviously have to be a "next-best match".

hallelujajordan

Liam Byrne wrote: »

I referred to ethical and fair-minded, and I've previously stated that my vote is completely up for grabs for anyone on that basis, obviously taking competence and track record into account.

Since FG & Labour obviously qualify more than FF & their Greens, then great - at least I have an option.

If someone - or some party - qualifies more than FG or Labour, then they'll get my vote instead.

Whether it's a party candidate or an independent, they'll have to prove that they won't do a Greens on it and prop up FF; I'll nearly require that in a signed letter from them at this stage, after the Green's stunt last election.

So when you "took it to mean FG/LAB", you were wrong. Anyone as long as they reflect my views and ethics, and if someone doesn't match those fully it will obviously have to be a "next-best match".

Great, from the point of view of your vote but we were not talking about a fair minded, ethical individual or party running in your constituency . . we were talking about government and there are only two options . .

1. FF + Coalition partner(s)
2. FG + LAB + others (if needed)

Liam Byrne

hallelujajordan wrote: »

Great, from the point of view of your vote but we were not talking about a fair minded, ethical individual or party running in your constituency . . we were talking about government and there are only two options . .

1. FF + Coalition partner(s)
2. FG + LAB + others (if needed)

Well, I wasn't impressed with FG's cop-out re O'Donoghue's expenses, but while Gilmore did impress on that I'd have concerns about their view of overpaid high-level public so-called servants, including TDs.

And FG's proposals for Oireachtas reform are very welcome.

So it'd probably be FG.

Re the link, it's strange; you suggest that that individual's personal actions reflect on the party, while distancing yourself and YOUR party from Ahern's and Burke's and Lawlor's and Cooper-Flynn's actions.

If you can find 5 or 6 of those related to FG and prove that - once found out - FG condoned it and took no action, then you might have a small point re what FG condone.

But that would still be merely condoning dodgy practices on a personal level, and while that's objectionable (and should be punished by the party to prove that it's not acceptable) at least it's thankfully not a party policy like flushing our money down the Anglo and NAMA sewer and refusing to force social and ethical concerns with the banks in return for OUR unwilling investment.

That said, if FG and Labour are likely to go into coalition together then it wouldn't make much difference which we vote for, as long as we give them the combined numbers.

anymore

hallelujajordan wrote: »

I never said or even inferred that . . I have been clear in my view that responsibility for this mess rests in lots of different areas - including the government but also including the collective populace that reaped the Celtic Tiger for all they could . . and this collective does not belong solely to FF . . . I have also been clear that I believe the appropriate way to take responsibility is to work to bring about change, as FF are doing and as the opposition parties propose to do.



I usually exit the debate at the point at which Nazi comparisons begin . . . I find it laughable that you accuse me of being offensive and then make such comments.

I'm not offended by being in the rank and file. I'm irritated when I am treated as if I represent all of the views that you guys associate with the rank and file. . I only represent my own views. . and happen to be a member of FF.

I am afraid it is not for you to decide what inferences others draw from the cumulative comments you make !

I notice you not refer to my comments regarding the refusal of your party ( i.e all the collective members of the Party) to tackle the abuse of multiple deposits on houses/ apartments.

Why so upset at my reference to the Nuremberg Rallies - these were mainly held before the war and were quite legal. The Nazi Party was actually elected to power in the same way as any European political party. Again if Ard Fheisanna remind me of these rallies, that is for me to comment on.

Well if you are a member of the Party, you cannot object to being linked to the actions and policies of the Party. Of course if you had formally proposed motions against the various issues under discussion, then clearly you couldnt be accused of supporting them.
I am afraid whilst you are all for imposing some notion of collective responsibility on the entire adult population of Ireland, you want an opt out clause for yourself as regards membership of your Party and collective responsibility for its actions.

It is unusual to see a man who quotes comedian Billy Connelly being so ' touchy feely ' about imagined slights ! Are you a memebr of a political party by any chance !:rolleyes:

anymore

hallelujajordan wrote: »

.


The first thing Kenny and Gilmore could do if they were serious about bringing down the government is to begin to talk to each other and work together. After all, these guys expect us to accept them as Taoiseach and Tanaiste in waiting . . . They could begin to demonstrate that theirs is a viable working partnership. . . One would imagine they would be even more focused on that post-2007 when the Irish electorate rejected a FG-Lab government.

Lets be honest here, the efforts Brian Lenihan has made to distance himself from Cowen, Ahern et al, suggests that Lenihan has reservations about having to work with Cowen as a Taoiseach. Is it a viable working partnership or a case of a necessary evil ? The latter I suggest.

sceptre

Moderator note: The Nazi comparisons are idiotic and are derailing the discussion. Let's not derail the discussion - do it somewhere else. While the comparison also makes an argument look idiotic, I'm not concerned with that as a moderator, merely with the unnecessary derailing. You can complain to me by PM if you think Nazi comparisons aren't idiotic in this thread and that the derailing isn't idiotic as well. There are two of you in it, both of you please knock it off.

Please carry on in the absence of the above.

Laminations

Dear FF supporter, please enlighten me with the facts or your interpretation of the facts that enables you to continue to focus on the lovely bread in the sh1t sandwich that is Fianna Fail. If you dont condone what the party did then why did you join them? Where would you draw the line?

anymore

You are right, my apologies, best to stick to facts and figures.
As I have previously stated, even Brian Cowen, party leader and now taoiseach is involved in property investment both here and in the UK and other prominent TDs are as well. The relevance of this is it illustrates the extent to which the party has caught up in and driving the property market in Ireland in a way which negatively affected every single person seeking to buy a home to live in. i.e single home owners. I was one of them myself a few short years ago and unfortunately bought at the height of the market and am in a negative mortgage situation now. I have not bought for investment purposes and only drive a second hand car. I did not go 'mad' as one poster suggests ' we all did'.
From my point of view, a political party is, in its organisational structure, comparable to a pyramid. Those at the top can only operate with the support of the grass roots at the base and this is especially so when we are talking of a party in power for 12 years and more. From my point of view the grassroots are as much part of the problem as those they elected to the positions of power at the top. A political party is a democratic structure, its leaders are representative of its rank and file.
So for me I reject the idea of FF party members seeking to impose blame for our situation on non - party members.
An article in one of the Central Bank's Quarterly Bulletins, perhaps two years ago, produced the results of a study which showed that Irish people did not in fact, in general, leverage the increased value of their homes and properties to finance spending sprees on consumer goods such as cars etc. In fact the study showed Irish people had been fairly responsible about their behaviour.

hallelujajordan

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Well, I wasn't impressed with FG's cop-out re O'Donoghue's expenses, but while Gilmore did impress on that I'd have concerns about their view of overpaid high-level public so-called servants, including TDs.

And FG's proposals for Oireachtas reform are very welcome.

So it'd probably be FG.

Re the link, it's strange; you suggest that that individual's personal actions reflect on the party, while distancing yourself and YOUR party from Ahern's and Burke's and Lawlor's and Cooper-Flynn's actions.

.

Please show me where I distanced myself from or condoned the actions of any or all of those people ? ?

hallelujajordan

anymore wrote: »

Lets be honest here, the efforts Brian Lenihan has made to distance himself from Cowen, Ahern et al, suggests that Lenihan has reservations about having to work with Cowen as a Taoiseach. Is it a viable working partnership or a case of a necessary evil ? The latter I suggest.

Based on where the partnership is today, versus where it was this time last year I would suggest that yes, it is a viable working partnership.

anymore

hallelujajordan wrote: »

Based on where the partnership is today, versus where it was this time last year I would suggest that yes, it is a viable working partnership.

I supposed based on the fact that Cowen's reputation is utterly in tatters and that Lenihan is seen as the party's only hope, then it is a working relationship. Just as the fact that no one in FF has the backbone and/or the talent to on the position of Minister of Health, makes the ' special relationship ' between Mary Harney and Fianna fail a viable working relationship. It is, needless to say, not one De Valera or Lemass would have tolerated, but it is perhaps, in this regard, true to say that the present day FF is not the party that they knew and worked in; it is only the successor to it, and a very weak and sickly successor it is as well.
If I may reproduce that old saying about family businesses :

The path to riches usually starts with a family business. To use private-banker jargon, the Patriarch founds the company (they never say Matriarch) and then passes it to the Next Generation and then maybe to "Gen 3." Inevitably, the family members start fighting and the business goes under or is sold for a Liquidity Event. .
Source: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/06/16/only-15-percent-of-family_n_107291.html
The present FF generation, appear to be Generation 3.

Liam Byrne

hallelujajordan wrote: »

Please show me where I distanced myself from or condoned the actions of any or all of those people ? ?

You - by you own admission - joined the party that condoned them.

As has been pointed out above, you're happy enough to tar everyone who just passively lived their lives with a collective "we", despite many of us not actively buying into the lifestyle or greed.

And yet having specifically and actively chosen FF as your party, you're objecting to THAT being a collective "we" - with collective condoning and responsibility, despite that being far more valid as you had a choice as to whether or not to join it.

In addition, you're touting the personal opinion that FF are best positioned to lead the country out of this mess, without any change in personnel or ethos; given Cowen's position as Minister for Finance during the foundation of the bust, and given O'Donoghue (and others) milking the system, you're not even remotely standing up and say "I'll join and support you as a party ON CONDITION THAT you clean up your act and start acting fairly and responsibly".

No, instead you are saying "vote sensibly, not in anger" and trying to gain votes for a party that HAS NOT CHANGED ONE IOTA.

Questionable competence aside, that is - IMHO - irresponsible. No-one should support FF until they get their act together, because the damage that they are doing - to the country and to politics - is going to hang over our heads for generations.