My first BMW - help please

randox

I want to buy a second hand BMW and need some help. I would like leather and as many 'bells & whistles' as possible for under €20,000.

I have been looking at the 3 series. Would prefer to keep it under 2.0 for tax purposes. Any ideas? Thanks.

Matt Simis

I dont get the appeal of the small engined BMWs. I would be looking at 3 litre models, spending less than 20k outright and offsetting that against tax (which is a mental block, not a fiscal one). If you want a small car, something like a 330Ci (3 series Coupe) in manual.

If you truely like cars and BMs, go try to find a 535d for around the 20k mark. 3.0 Twin Turbo diesel, one of the best compromise cars on the market (economy and power).

318, 320? All show no go IMO.


PS: Incidentally I have 2 BMWs, my parents have one and my uncle has one, so Ive driven a few different models, but we arent BM fanatics or anything, all but one of them are recent conversions from entirely different marques.

randox

I don't do a lot of driving but want the luxury of a quality car. Not sure I really need a 3.0. Any other advice out there.

Also read that a D is better than an I for city driving? Would there be a big difference between the 3 and 5 series regarding size? Going to test drive some this weekend hopefully.

jon1981

for taxes purposes? i assume then you will be looking for a 08 or newer and a diesel? would you get a 3 series for this money and that year?

Anan1

Re the options, it's really a question of finding a 2.0 car that doesn't have the standard Irish fur coat & no knickers spec. I put €13k worth of options into a new one for my mother in early 2007, and that didn't include things like leather, power seats, nav etc. FWIW I wouldn't get too excited about leather - the stuff that they put into the E90 wouldn't make the grade for an ILAC Centre leather jacket.

Shane732

jon1981 wrote: »

for taxes purposes? i assume then you will be looking for a 08 or newer and a diesel? would you get a 3 series for this money and that year?

Not for €20K he won't be

copacetic

thread recently with dealer offering 19.5k trade in on an 08 520d with leather etc. So not too far off. Would imagine you could get in an 08 320d for about 20k with a couple of months search and hard haggling.

08 on the tax is on emisssions OP. Nothing wrong with the 2.0d engine wise, although of course a 6 cylinder would be nicer.

Idbatterim

below is the cheapest 3 series coupe on autotrader.co.uk, I worked out yesterday you could bring it in for about 20k, about 3k cheaper than the cheapest from a dealer here...

http://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/200952348905612/sort/priceasc/usedcars/make/bmw/model/3_series/maximum-mileage/up_to_40000_miles/maximum-age/up_to_3_years_old/seller-type/trade_adverts/body-type/coupe/radius/1501/postcode/de12bh/page/1?previous=%2Fsearch%2Fresults%2Fusedcars%2Fpostcode%2Fde12bh%2Fradius%2F1501%2Fmake%2Fbmw%2Fmodel%2F3_series%2Fmaximum-mileage%2Fup_to_40000_miles%2Fmaximum-age%2Fup_to_3_years_old%2Fseller-type%2Ftrade_adverts%2Fbody-type%2Fcoupe%2Fsort%2Fpriceasc%2Fpage%2F1&logcode=p

it all depends on how recent a number plate you want v getting a fully specced no compromise beauty....

there is an 03 5 series msport at the below link thats a cracker for anyone that might be interested.

http://www.carzone.ie/search/BMW/5-Series/520-MANU/200943195622386/advert?channel=CARS

Idbatterim

Regarding the small engined bmw comment, the 07 coupes and any semi recent ones, output 177bhp, from a 2L naturally aspirated engine, thats not half bad!

unkel

Matt Simis wrote: »

tax (which is a mental block, not a fiscal one)

Well said!

Shane732

Idbatterim wrote: »

below is the cheapest 3 series coupe on autotrader.co.uk, I worked out yesterday you could bring it in for about 20k, about 3k cheaper than the cheapest from a dealer here...

http://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/200952348905612/sort/priceasc/usedcars/make/bmw/model/3_series/maximum-mileage/up_to_40000_miles/maximum-age/up_to_3_years_old/seller-type/trade_adverts/body-type/coupe/radius/1501/postcode/de12bh/page/1?previous=%2Fsearch%2Fresults%2Fusedcars%2Fpostcode%2Fde12bh%2Fradius%2F1501%2Fmake%2Fbmw%2Fmodel%2F3_series%2Fmaximum-mileage%2Fup_to_40000_miles%2Fmaximum-age%2Fup_to_3_years_old%2Fseller-type%2Ftrade_adverts%2Fbody-type%2Fcoupe%2Fsort%2Fpriceasc%2Fpage%2F1&logcode=p

AHHHH look at those horrible seats!! :eek:

Idbatterim

at the very least OP you want a MFSW and leather... My mistake I thought the car I linked to on autotrader had a leather interior...

randox

Thanks. I know the leather isn't Italy's finest but want to get away from cloth seats. The coupe was a beauty but prefer to get as bew as possible for my money.

I know a 2008 would be nice but if I looked at a 2007 I would probably get more bang for my buck. Right?

So you think the 320d and 520d are the models to look at?

Matt Simis

unkel wrote: »

Well said!

If I say it enough times maybe it will sink in with Joe Everyman! :pac:

Eoin

Shane732 wrote: »

AHHHH look at those horrible seats!! :eek:

Are they Alcantara suede? I can't really make it out from the picture. If so, then you could do a lot worse than them.

copacetic

Matt Simis wrote: »

If I say it enough times maybe it will sink in with Joe Everyman! :pac:

you actually get some of the 3.0 for €447 a year tax anyway. However the 3.0Ls in general are rarer to see and therefore not as many deals around

Mr Benevolent

offsetting that against tax (which is a mental block, not a fiscal one)

I'm not sure I follow your logic on that one. I know it's more about the difference in tax rather then the total cost, but claiming that €1566 per year is not a fiscal block seems a bit of an exaggeration.

Marlow

Matt Simis wrote: »

I dont get the appeal of the small engined BMWs.

Also, small engine BMW's are usually on the lousiest spec on extras.

Matt Simis wrote: »

I would be looking at 3 litre models, spending less than 20k outright and offsetting that against tax (which is a mental block, not a fiscal one).

Absolutely correct. The tax should be the least concern in this calculation. At least it's a constant.

copacetic wrote: »

08 on the tax is on emisssions OP. Nothing wrong with the 2.0d engine wise, although of course a 6 cylinder would be nicer.

A BMW with less than 6 cylinders isn't a BMW. You're missing half of the animal: the sound and smoothness of an inline-6 or V8.

Confab wrote:

claiming that €1566 per year is not a fiscal block seems a bit of an under exaggeration.

3l is 1200 some on a 07, not 1566. For that you need a bit bigger engine And sure, it might be a lot, if you only drive 10 km/year. It's nothing, when you drive 60000 km/year. It's a constant, doesn't change and it's really not the biggest expense on the car. It's foolish to decide on engine based on tax price, especially with a car like the BMW.

/M

Matt Simis

Confab wrote: »

I'm not sure I follow your logic on that one. I know it's more about the difference in tax rather then the total cost, but claiming that €1566 per year is not a fiscal block seems a bit of an exaggeration.

Well, firstly its not +1566, its the difference from something more mundane (2.0) and 1566, say 950 ish extra per year.

EUR1000 spread over a year is EUR79 per month. I believe personally budgeting an extra EUR80 per month is within the means of a motorist who is buying a 2litre car (ie not someone scraping by with a 1.0 Micra). That type of money could be saved via self servicing, more intelligent parts purchases, paying attention to fuel costs, choosing a more competitive insurer, not smoking or drinking (as much) etc etc.

While I agree it is a cost and a factor, I dont agree that by and large its so big thats its completely blocking a purchase. Also EUR1566 a year gets you a 5.6litre V12 (as everything above 3.01 is the same). If you stick to a "3 litre" diesel BMW (and many others) thats effectively 2.9litre, its only 1296 a year or a more forgettable EUR50 odd a month (difference from 2.0).

Of course you may simply wash that all aside and say that 80 a month is a lot of money to some people.. it is, but again, I dont think it is to the average motorist who isnt on the breadline, ie all the stupid Irish people spending 20-60k on "new plate" 1.9TDIs the past 5years. They could have got a better engine, but are clearly penny wise, pound foolish.

Mr Benevolent

Matt Simis wrote: »

Well, firstly its not +1566, its the difference from something more mundane (2.0) and 1566, say 950 ish extra per year.

EUR1000 spread over a year is EUR79 per month. I believe personally budgeting an extra EUR80 per month is within the means of a motorist who is buying a 2litre car (ie not someone scraping by with a 1.0 Micra). That type of money could be saved via self servicing, more intelligent parts purchases, paying attention to fuel costs, choosing a more competitive insurer, not smoking or drinking (as much) etc etc.

While I agree it is a cost and a factor, I dont agree that by and large its so big thats its completely blocking a purchase. Also EUR1566 a year gets you a 5.6litre V12 (as everything above 3.01 is the same). If you stick to a "3 litre" diesel BMW (and many others) thats effectively 2.9litre, its only 1296 a year or a more forgettable EUR50 odd a month (difference from 2.0).

Of course you may simply wash that all aside and say that 80 a month is a lot of money to some people.. it is, but again, I dont think it is to the average motorist who isnt on the breadline, ie all the stupid Irish people spending 20-60k on "new plate" 1.9TDIs the past 5years. They could have got a better engine, but are clearly penny wise, pound foolish.

I am converted. Lead me to the CLK300/530d!

Anan1

Confab wrote: »

I am converted. Lead me to the CLK300/530d!

That's a start, but I think Matt Simis's argument leads ultimately to a CLK55/540i. May as well be hanged for a sheep and all that.

Mr Benevolent

Anan1 wrote: »

That's a start, but I think Matt Simis's argument leads ultimately to a CLK55/540i. May as well be hanged for a sheep and all that.

True.

I forgot that there isn't a CLK300, it's a 320. Shame on me. And now to Donedeal for a snoop at the really cheap huge engined luxobarges...

Marlow

Anan1 wrote: »

That's a start, but I think Matt Simis's argument leads ultimately to a CLK55/540i. May as well be hanged for a sheep and all that.

You either mean CLK500/540i or you mean CLK55 AMG/M5. Don't mix, just match

/M

Anan1

Marlow wrote: »

You either mean CLK500/540i or you mean CLK55 AMG/M5. Don't mix, just match

/M

M5 is manual-only.;)

Marlow

Anan1 wrote: »

M5 is manual-only.;)

Until 2003, correct. After 2003 it's a flappy paddle box. Beyond that, does it matter ?

copacetic

Marlow wrote: »

A BMW with less than 6 cylinders isn't a BMW. You're missing half of the animal: the sound and smoothness of an inline-6 or V8.

I'm not missing anything,there is nothing wrong with a 4 cylinder until you can afford both the style and substance.

Either way better to wait until you can go for the low tax 6 cylinder diesel or petrol based on emissions. 08 or later.

ShadowHearth

Matt Simis wrote: »

I dont get the appeal of the small engined BMWs. I would be looking at 3 litre models, spending less than 20k outright and offsetting that against tax (which is a mental block, not a fiscal one). If you want a small car, something like a 330Ci (3 series Coupe) in manual.

If you truely like cars and BMs, go try to find a 535d for around the 20k mark. 3.0 Twin Turbo diesel, one of the best compromise cars on the market (economy and power).

318, 320? All show no go IMO.


PS: Incidentally I have 2 BMWs, my parents have one and my uncle has one, so Ive driven a few different models, but we arent BM fanatics or anything, all but one of them are recent conversions from entirely different marques.

amen! all 318 320 should be scrapped... If you do go for bm go atleast for 2.5 or 2.8, and f you whant a seriuos beemer you have to have atleast 3.0++.

Was thinking myself ofgetting bmw 7 series E38, options are: 728 and 740i. So if ill decide to take a bullet for one it will be 740i! 4.4 V8 MMMMMmmmm..... thats whats really bmws are...

Deisekickboxing

for that money you would surely pic up a nice 08 318d 177bhp
pretty nippy and cheap to run ....
or a116i msport petrol if it wasnt too small for you......

theres so many beemers for sale at the moment never mind what the dealer is askin they would take your hand off
if you waved 20k in their face

Voodoomelon

ShadowHearth wrote: »

Was thinking myself ofgetting bmw 7 series E38, options are: 728 and 740i. So if ill decide to take a bullet for one it will be 740i! 4.4 V8 MMMMMmmmm..... thats whats really bmws are...

A fine choice, i'll see you over on the E38 forums! Buyers often glance over the 728i and dismiss it, but get yourself a genuine Sport and you're laughing.

You get lower front suspension, a higher diff ratio for faster acceleration and the steptronic box. Mine hits 60 in a hair over 8 seconds, not bad for a 1950kg car.

Straight six is arguably smoother than the V8, lower tax, better economy and apparently more reliable than the V8s. Believe it or not the 728i Sport also has a higher top speed than a standard 735i and 740i too.

ShadowHearth

Voodoomelon wrote: »

A fine choice, i'll see you over on the E38 forums! Buyers often glance over the 728i and dismiss it, but get yourself a genuine Sport and you're laughing.

You get lower front suspension, a higher diff ratio for faster acceleration and the steptronic box. Mine hits 60 in a hair over 8 seconds, not bad for a 1950kg car.

Straight six is arguably smoother than the V8, lower tax, better economy and apparently more reliable than the V8s. Believe it or not the 728i Sport also has a higher top speed than a standard 735i and 740i too.

i was reading a bit, and i thought that 728 ar moust unreleable ones . As far goes speed, there is not huge difference in two, but the sound of V8..... the only ather engine that makes me feel so horny is wrx/sti boxer .

hows the ussual runing costs on 728 bud? I owned clk200, and as moust german cars its a pain in a hole, as there is not much third party manufacturers... Hows suspention taking the beating on irish roadS?

Voodoomelon

In general all the engines of that era were very reliable, but the consensus over on the E38s forums (and 3 series forums as the M52 2.8l is used extensively in it in the US) is that the V8s can run into certain problems, its best to read about them on the forums.

If I was buying another E38, i'd go for a V8 too to be honest, a 735i Sport would be perfect.
I had the car a few weeks and stuck it in for the NCT and it failed on rear control arms, both had to be replaced for about €400, looking back I wish I did it myself.

Suspension on the E38s can be hit and miss, you can spend forever replacing bits at a time to fix a knocking sound or shimmy and only discover what was causing it after replacing the whole lot.

All i've done in 1.5 years is replace the rear arms, thats it. Two parking sensors went, ABS sensor went, they're the only issues i've had. These cars are great to work on if you follow the bible, www.e38.org. Its addictive.

ShadowHearth

Voodoomelon wrote: »

In general all the engines of that era were very reliable, but the consensus over on the E38s forums (and 3 series forums as the M52 2.8l is used extensively in it in the US) is that the V8s can run into certain problems, its best to read about them on the forums.

If I was buying another E38, i'd go for a V8 too to be honest, a 735i Sport would be perfect.
I had the car a few weeks and stuck it in for the NCT and it failed on rear control arms, both had to be replaced for about €400, looking back I wish I did it myself.

Suspension on the E38s can be hit and miss, you can spend forever replacing bits at a time to fix a knocking sound or shimmy and only discover what was causing it after replacing the whole lot.

All i've done in 1.5 years is replace the rear arms, thats it. Two parking sensors went, ABS sensor went, they're the only issues i've had. These cars are great to work on if you follow the bible, www.e38.org. Its addictive.

same was with clk200 bud, squicking noise, but i had it up 3 times, and we newer could find the source of squicking.... its just the fun of german cars i guess... Well i will newer find it out now, as mine misses wrote it off....

those e38 can look so savage with proper light touches... thought 728 will be really to slow for me . i would feel sorry for engine that has to drive 2t around the ireland... Mine misses would love the 7 series...

Matt Simis

Voodoomelon wrote: »

If I was buying another E38, i'd go for a V8 too to be honest, a 735i Sport would be perfect.

I thought there was a feeling in the E38 "world" that the 735i offered nothing over the 740i, same'ish MPG with less power?
And yeah, these are proper BMWs.

Eoin

I don't think the OP is considering a 7 series.

Shires

Matt Simis wrote: »

I thought there was a feeling in the E38 "world" that the 735i offered nothing over the 740i, same'ish MPG with less power?
And yeah, these are proper BMWs.

The 3.5 V8 offers almost no advantage over the 3.0 inline 6. Bit of an odd one, done to match insurance or tax bands somewhere, perhaps?

JHMEG

If you want a luxury quality car and driving isn't the priority then surely you should be looking at a Lexus LS or GS?

Voodoomelon

ShadowHearth wrote: »

those e38 can look so savage with proper light touches... thought 728 will be really to slow for me . i would feel sorry for engine that has to drive 2t around the ireland... Mine misses would love the 7 series...

As i say, go for the Sport model, there is plenty of pep out of the I6. The engine and transmission also weigh 145kg less than the 740i, worth bearing in mind.

Sorry for going OT.

veetwin

I'm sure this discussion is of great help to the OP who was looking at sub 2 litre 3 series!

ShadowHearth

veetwin wrote: »

I'm sure this discussion is of great help to the OP who was looking at sub 2 litre 3 series!

2l bmw not even worth to discuss

veetwin

ShadowHearth wrote: »

2l bmw not even worth to discuss

While that's a valid argument it's also a hackneyed and overused one used by people who have never driven/owned either. Too many people listening to J Clarkson & Co. While it would be great to have a V8/V10 its not a viable option for most in this country given the price of fuel and the tax bill.

Matt Simis

veetwin wrote: »

While that's a valid argument it's also a hackneyed and overused one used by people who have never driven/owned either. Too many people listening to J Clarkson & Co. While it would be great to have a V8/V10 its not a viable option for most in this country given the price of fuel and the tax bill.

Do you really think those of us who have cars with larger engines a) havent driven a 2.0 and b) do so because JC says so?
I mean come on, what a silly statement!

veetwin

ShadowHearth wrote: »

2l bmw not even worth to discuss

Matt Simis wrote: »

Do you really think those of us who have cars with larger engines a) havent driven a 2.0 and b) do so because JC says so?
I mean come on, what a silly statement!

I was merely making the argument that many cannot realistically look at these larger engines but still want the BMW experience and build quality albeit with an engine they can afford. I agree that 6 cylinders at least are preferable but not everyone is in that position and they are still entitled to seek opinions here.

Matt Simis

veetwin wrote: »

I was merely making the argument that many cannot realistically look at these larger engines but still want the BMW experience and build quality albeit with an engine they can afford. I agree that 6 cylinders at least are preferable but not everyone is in that position and they are still entitled to seek opinions here.

True regarding opinions, but I disagree with almost everything else! Quite simply to fans of the marque, who are the ones evangelising the "BMW experience" as you put it, a BMW engine is distinctively an Inline 6 (and possibly V8s etc). The 4pots today are simply "cheap" entrys to the brand for people that choose to "overlook" the most important aspect of a vehicle. On a "performance mark", thats almost sacrilegious and is the epitome of show over go.

Whats the cheapest 6pot BMW these days anyway? Usually the bigger engines are the same price or cheaper to purchase anyway, so your statement about them being too expensive to get is wrong. Then we get into the bit extra per year to tax conversation, already done to death.
But we arent talking champagne on a beer income here, lets not delude ourselves that only the rich can afford decent cars.

Marlow

veetwin wrote: »

I was merely making the argument that many cannot realistically look at these larger engines but still want the BMW experience and build quality albeit with an engine they can afford. I agree that 6 cylinders at least are preferable but not everyone is in that position and they are still entitled to seek opinions here.

But you won't get the BMW experience, unless it's min 6 cyl. That's the point we're making here. And I've driven cars with engines as small as 900cc. BMW's with as small as 1.8. I've owned a BMW 520i ('92) and I find that the later models are undermotorised, with that engine.

Matter of fact, up to 2004, the 5-series only existed as minimum 6-cyl in RHD (E39). The 520d in that model series was introduced quite late and only in left hand drive.

A small engined BMW will leave you frustrated, because it has to make up in stress, what it doesn't have in power. As for the fuel-consumption, that doesn't change much from the small to the big engine. The only thing that is cheaper is tax, and that's just the wrong place to save, when you buy a car like that.

Also with the budget, that the OP has, the OP can buy a quite decent BMW with a good bit of poke. It would be wrong to save on the wrong end so.

Those are the pointers, that we've sort have tried to bring across. Your argument doesn't hold any way you put it.

/M

copacetic

Marlow wrote: »

Matter of fact, up to 2004, the 5-series only existed as minimum 6-cyl in RHD (E39). The 520d in that model series was introduced quite late and only in left hand drive.

A small engined BMW will leave you frustrated, because it has to make up in stress, what it doesn't have in power.

You can't have it every way, modern 4-cyl engines can be and are more powerful than the outdated 6-cyl in something like an E39.

The current 4 cylinder 520d is more powerful than the 6 cyclinder E39 520i or d, 523i or d and 525d.

It's also hardly under any real stress since there is a lot more power available in 2.0 engines. Engines are getting smaller and more powerful and BMW will be no different.

The new 5 series is rumoured to get the 2.0d from the 123d with 200bhp+, which would put it past most I6 engines from the older generation cars.

The only real difference is in the petrols as BMW haven't moved to the turbos in their smaller petrol engines yet, but they will.

If the "BMW experience" is just a nicer sounding engine note then it is pretty meaningless.

Marlow

copacetic wrote: »

The current 4 cylinder 520d is more powerful than the 6 cyclinder E39 520i or d

520d E39 and E60 engine would be the same.

copacetic wrote: »

The only real difference is in the petrols as BMW haven't moved to the turbos in their smaller petrol engines yet, but they will.

That my friend is actually not a good thing and only done to bring CO2 down. The turbo is a weak spot in most cars, because it's prone to failure, if not treated properly. Having a naturally aspirated engine is actually a good thing, as it doesn't complicate things and the engine will live longer.

If the "BMW experience" is just a nicer sounding engine note then it is pretty meaningless.

No, the smaller engined BMWs, especially when buying second hand, often also lack in extras, because whoever bought them didn't only save on the engine. Exceptions do exists, but are rare.

/M

Matt Simis

copacetic wrote: »

You can't have it every way, modern 4-cyl engines can be and are more powerful than the outdated 6-cyl in something like an E39.

The current 4 cylinder 520d is more powerful than the 6 cyclinder E39 520i or d, 523i or d and 525d.

Should you not be comparing todays 4pot to todays 6pot. Obviously a brand new 4pot is going to compare well to a decade old 6pot.. thats not really much of a revelation.

Eoin

copacetic wrote: »

You can't have it every way, modern 4-cyl engines can be and are more powerful than the outdated 6-cyl in something like an E39.

Which outdated engines in particular? I doubt that's the case for the updated engines brought in around 2000.

Anyway, I wonder if any of this is helping the OP...

copacetic

Matt Simis wrote: »

Should you not be comparing todays 4pot to todays 6pot. Obviously a brand new 4pot is going to compare well to a decade old 6pot.. thats not really much of a revelation.

No, you wouldn't think so, but post I replied to was saying the 2.0 4 cylinders had less power and had 'no poke' compared to the older 6 cylinders. Which is just false.

eoin wrote: »

Which outdated engines in particular? I doubt that's the case for the updated engines brought in around 2000.

Anyway, I wonder if any of this is helping the OP...

I listed the engines and afaik it is true, if you 'doubt it', why not educate me?

randox

hmmm, seems to be a lot of opinions posted here. now you big engine lovers could you show me some cars i could get for my 20,000 ??

copacetic

Marlow wrote: »

No, the smaller engined BMWs, especially when buying second hand, often also lack in extras, because whoever bought them didn't only save on the engine. Exceptions do exists, but are rare.

/M

So in your opinion the 'BMW experience' is a nicer sounding engine notes and 'extras'. Really?