My first BMW - help please

Eoin

copacetic wrote: »

I listed the engines and afaik it is true, if you 'doubt it', why not educate me?

No need to get snippy. You listed diesel engines. I was asking a genuine question as I don't know what the new engines are like.

What e39 petrol engines are you talking about? There are about 6 or 7 different 6 cyl engines over the years. The later e39 2.5 engine had 192 BHP, and the 3.0 had another 40bhp or so on top of that. Do the newer 2.0 4 cyl engines match those figures?

Marlow

copacetic wrote: »

I listed the engines and afaik it is true, if you 'doubt it', why not educate me?

A list of all engines in the BMW's are here. Click into each individually to see. There's nothing outdated about BMW's naturally aspirated inline-6 and v8 engines.

copacetic wrote: »

So in your opinion the 'BMW experience' is a nicer sounding engine notes and 'extras'. Really?

No, it's the whole package and it's compromised in the smaller engined BMW's. Full stop.

/M

veetwin

Matt Simis wrote: »

True regarding opinions, but I disagree with almost everything else! Quite simply to fans of the marque, who are the ones evangelising the "BMW experience" as you put it, a BMW engine is distinctively an Inline 6 (and possibly V8s etc). The 4pots today are simply "cheap" entrys to the brand for people that choose to "overlook" the most important aspect of a vehicle. On a "performance mark", thats almost sacrilegious and is the epitome of show over go.

Whats the cheapest 6pot BMW these days anyway? Usually the bigger engines are the same price or cheaper to purchase anyway, so your statement about them being too expensive to get is wrong.

325d SE€ 47,895


That was the cheapest 6 cylinder I could find from the latest SIMI price list. They may have been reduced since then but its hardly small money. All I'm saying is that for most 4 cylinder is more realistic. I'm not saying they are better its just they are not relevant to many. It may be "sacreligious" but it appears to be the case.

copacetic

eoin wrote: »

No need to get snippy. You listed diesel engines. I was asking a genuine question as I don't know what the new engines are like.

What e39 petrol engines are you talking about? There are about 6 or 7 different 6 cyl engines over the years. The later e39 2.5 engine had 192 BHP, and the 3.0 had another 40bhp or so on top of that. Do the newer 2.0 4 cyl engines match those figures?

I listed petrols and diesels:

E39 520i or d, 523i or d

the early 520i and 523i had I6 engines but 168bhp or less, only the later 523i had 189bhp (192PS?). Even the later 6 cylinder 520i only got to the 168.

The current 520d 4 cylinder has 177bhp.

Marlow wrote: »

No, it's the whole package and it's compromised in the smaller engined BMW's. Full stop.

/M

What do you mean, 'full stop'. You've given no valid reasons, in fact hardly any reasons at all. Just the 'bmw experience' and the 'whole package'. Meaningless statements.

6 cylinder engines sound nicer and feel smoother, thats all really.

veetwin

eoin wrote: »

No need to get snippy. You listed diesel engines. I was asking a genuine question as I don't know what the new engines are like.

What e39 petrol engines are you talking about? There are about 6 or 7 different 6 cyl engines over the years. The later e39 2.5 engine had 192 BHP, and the 3.0 had another 40bhp or so on top of that. Do the newer 2.0 4 cyl engines match those figures?

Present 520D and 320D AFAIK have 177bhp. Not a million miles behind especially when you take into account other (boring) factors such as running costs

Eoin

I thought people were comparing the modern 4cyl petrol engines with the older 6cyl petrol engines, which is where I got confused.

Marlow

randox wrote: »

hmmm, seems to be a lot of opinions posted here. now you big engine lovers could you show me some cars i could get for my 20,000 ??

Diesels:
BMW 5 Series 530 D AUTO 2005, 99k km
http://www.carzone.ie/search/BMW/5-Series/530-D-AU/201001196421975/advert?channel=CARS

BMW 5 Series 525d 2005, 80k km
http://www.carzone.ie/search/BMW/5-Series/525d/201002196562478/advert?channel=CARS

I had a look for 3-series, but carzone is spammed with UK-direct cars. In general you'd be getting the best deals importing one from the UK yourself. The car would also often be in a better state and with a lot better spec.

/M

VolvoMan

Anan1 wrote: »

I put €13k worth of options into a new one for my mother in early 2007, and that didn't include things like leather, power seats, nav etc.

How'd you manage that?

By the way OP, unless you're buying a 6 cylinder, save yourself the shame and don't bother.

Matt Simis

veetwin wrote: »

325d SE€ 47,895


That was the cheapest 6 cylinder I could find from the latest SIMI price list. They may have been reduced since then but its hardly small money. All I'm saying is that for most 4 cylinder is more realistic. I'm not saying they are better its just they are not relevant to many. It may be "sacreligious" but it appears to be the case.

SIMI price list?! Apart from the fact that has little bearing on new car sale prices, since when are we looking at new prices. I said you can usually get the larger engine models for the same price as the entry spec engines, did you really think I was referring to new car sales!? The OP hasn't a hope of getting a new BMW for 20k.

Also, to Copacetic, my 530i (M54 engine) is a year 2000, was roughly the same price as the overpriced 520d and outputs a smooth and easy 235bhp. Is there a 4pot from BMW outputting that BHP, a decade later? I believe the current 3.0 NA from BMW is something like 270bhp, if you want to compare like for like (to a 4pot).

6pot gets you more torque and lower crusiing RPM, as well as smoothness. As pointed out it does so without reverting to FI which is in its own right an additional maintenance worry and to some a negative driving experience (I like turbos incidentally), especially when paired with a small engine. This is a side point, my main argument is that buying larger engines allows you to take advantage of the "must buy small" mindset in this country. You will get a better spec'ed and better driving car for similar money, maybe even less money than the more easily disposable low end models. You can either join the flock or not.



To the OP, you asked for some examples, here are a few to illustrate my point (I dont vouch for any of these cars, picked at random):

2004 330Ci 53k miles 235bhp (Petrol)
http://www.carzone.ie/search/BMW/3-Series/330CI-Co/201001196466829/advert?channel=CARS
Under EUR15k


2004 330Cd 80k miles 204bhp (Turbo Diesel)
http://www.carzone.ie/search/BMW/3-Series/330-CD-3/201002196550446/advert?channel=CARS
Under EUR13k

OR the small engine option:
2004 318Ci 65k miles 143bhp (or less pending exact model and fairly baseline spec looking) (Petrol)
http://www.carzone.ie/search/BMW/3-Series/318Ci--C/200937195156155/advert?channel=CARS
Under EUR15k (ie same price as the vastly better spec'ed and driving and looking 330Ci)

There is also a 2006 (granted 2 years newer, but same ish mileage) 320d there for a whopping 20 grand. You would seriously have to be clueless to buy these little putt putt models by choice. Bigger engined models are, as pointed out, typically speced better as they arent bought just for the badge and are not more expensive to buy 2nd hand, which is actually "wrong" but an oddity of this countries (historical/hysterical) tax system.

copacetic

Matt Simis wrote: »

Also, to Copacetic, my 530i is a year 2000, was roughly the same price as a 520d and is 235bhp. Is there a 4pot from BMW outputting that BHP, a decade later? I believe the current 3.0 NA from BMW is something like 270bhp, if you want to compare like for like (to a 4pot).

6pot gets you more torque and lower crusiing RPM, as well as smoothness. As pointed out it does so without reverting to FI which is in its own right an additional maintenance worry and to some a negative driving experience (I like turbod incidentally) to some (especially when paired with a small engine). This is a side point, my main argument is that buying larger engines allows you to take advantage of the "must buy small" mindset in this country. You will get a better spec'ed and better driving car for similar money, maybe even less money than the more easily disposable low end models. You can either join the flock or not.

There isn't but BMW will have one in the next year or so I believe. They are following audi into the turbo petrols as well as diesels.

Current 3.0L NA inline 6 starts at 218 in the 325i.

I agree on the smoothness, engine note, better potential reliability etc. I just think this 'mythical' stuff about 6 cylinders is gradually going and people posting little fact and too much marketing bunf gives a bad impression.
I have an I6 and bought it for a number of reasons, but the 'bmw experience' and the 'whole package' weren't any of them. I'd doubt the majority of drivers could tell much of a difference between driving it and the same spec 4 cylinder with 40 or 50 less bhp, esp if its a diesel with more torque.

I also disagree a bit on the costs, you have to go quite old before the the bigger engines are as cheap as the smaller engines. I mean you are calling the smaller ones, easily disposable but don't think they are cheaper?

The OP can buy a reasonably low mileage 07 or 08 320d/520d for 20k. As a first bmw I think it's be a good choice.

Matt Simis

copacetic wrote: »

Current 3.0L NA inline 6 starts at 218 in the 325i.

I agree on the smoothness, engine note, better potential reliability etc. I just think this 'mythical' stuff about 6 cylinders is gradually going and people posting little fact and too much marketing bunf gives a bad impression.
snip
I also disagree a bit on the costs, you have to go quite old before the the bigger engines are as cheap as the smaller engines. I mean you are calling the smaller ones, easily disposable but don't think they are cheaper?

Well the x25 engines are detuned, thats not very fair of you at all! :pac: The current x30 put out much more, they arent going backwards afterall (as I said Im on 235bhp 10 years ago).

I wasnt the one talking about smoothness (but agree), Im saying there is no real tangible reason to limit ones search to 4pots. You will get a better car for a variety of reasons for similar money when looking at larger engines as they are way underpriced. Which conversly means the 4pots (and 2.0 litres) are overpriced. I dont agree you have to dial back the years, look at this Carzone search link (hope it works) on the 5 series:
http://www.carzone.ie/search/results?searchsource=finder&nParam=4294911133&channel=CARS&cacheBuster=1263596314331911#nParam=200401%2B200436%2B285%2B338%2B200288%2B200299%2B200590%2B4294911135&sortby=Make|0&channel=CARS&currency=EUROS&searchResultsView=SPREADSHEET&maxrows=30

# Year: 2004 to 2007
# Price: €Min to €21,999
# Engine Size: 2.1L to 3.9L
# BMW (1 model) 5 series

You see 530ds along side 520ds, in the same price bracket and recent years. Its insane!
Since the thread is about "My first BMW", I think personally the choice should be something that exemplifies BMW and an underpowered and underspec'ed 2.0 (or less) is totally not what BMW is all about. If engine size rules the choice, you can get far better Jap stuff.

VolvoMan

copacetic wrote: »

The OP can buy a reasonably low mileage 07 or 08 320d/520d for 20k. As a first bmw I think it's be a good choice.

What is this term 'first BMW,' do people not buy by car these days rather than brand?

Matt Simis

VolvoMan wrote: »

What is this term 'first BMW,' do people not buy by car these days rather than brand?

Apparently not, but thats a bit of a rich question coming from a man who has actually gone to the length of naming himself after a car brand now isnt it? :P

VolvoMan

Matt Simis wrote: »

Apparently not, but thats a bit of a rich question coming from a man who has actually gone to the length of naming himself after a car brand now isnt it? :P

Well at least I became an enthusiast from experience of the brand rather than a desire to keep up with the Jones'.

Marlow

copacetic wrote: »

I agree on the smoothness, engine note, better potential reliability etc. I just think this 'mythical' stuff about 6 cylinders is gradually going and people posting little fact and too much marketing bunf gives a bad impression.

Well, aren't you nit-picking. I've given plenty of reasons why to go for the bigger engine (ie. bigger engined cars often better spec'ed. N/A is better as you don't have turbo failures, etc.), but you are just hanging yourself in whatever caught your eye.

Besides that, you haven't helped the op. At least I posted some links of cars, that would be within the OPs budget. And by going for one, that's just a year or two older, you get a lot more value for money. Milage doesn't have to be high.

/M

TJJP

copacetic wrote: »

thread recently with dealer offering 19.5k trade in on an 08 520d with leather etc. So not too far off. Would imagine you could get in an 08 320d for about 20k with a couple of months search and hard haggling.

Yeah, but read the whole thread. It won't happen, not just yet.

Deisekickboxing wrote: »

for that money you would surely pic up a nice 08 318d 177bhp
pretty nippy and cheap to run ....
or a116i msport petrol if it wasnt too small for you......

theres so many beemers for sale at the moment never mind what the dealer is askin they would take your hand off
if you waved 20k in their face

>theres so many beemers for sale at the moment I]sic[/I

Again no, the market is becoming less and less saturated for whatever reason. Sought after BMW's are thin enough on the ground. Lots of dross about alright, but well specified post 2007 are not that frequent, lots of earlier stuff though. People are holding on to cars it seems.

veetwin wrote: »

While that's a valid argument it's also a hackneyed and overused one used by people who have never driven/owned either. Too many people listening to J Clarkson & Co. While it would be great to have a V8/V10 its not a viable option for most in this country given the price of fuel and the tax bill.

+100

mink_man

leather - freezes ur ass off on a cold day and boils it off on a hot day.
aren't beamers a sow on juice also?

TJJP

Matt Simis wrote: »

On a "performance mark", thats almost sacrilegious and is the epitome of show over go.

Yes and no - isn't 177bhp and 360nm from a 2L diesel pretty good performance?

Straight-sixes are lovely, but BMW have almost amazingly moved from power to economy (without loosing too much of the power) ahead of most, and that must be applauded in the current (pardon the pun) environment.

Matt Simis

mink_man wrote: »

aren't beamers a sow on juice also?

If you mean they get much better MPG then they should given their engine size, then yes. If not, no idea what at all you are referring to...?

tjjp wrote:

Yes and no - isn't 177bhp and 360nm from a 2L diesel pretty good performance?

Isnt north of 250 even better? I had 170bhp in a 2.3 VAG 5 cylinder NA engine 6 years ago, so 177 from a turbo'd car isnt going to impress much today. Its good relative to the classic 115bhp 8v 2.0 yeah, but not standout compared to its stablemates (or other German diesels). Why settle? I mean I already posted you can get a 330Ci for the price of dire 318 and a 530d seems to be in the ballpark of a 520d.

What am I missing, why is this even a question still? Anyone interested in cars that visit Ireland cant understand how cheap good cars are (yes, even including VRT), yet trying to explain this my country men Im in a debate to about how great the entry level is. Yet you will all bitch and moan about VRT and petrol prices, but try your damnedest to justify paying more for less of a car. Crazy pills..

TJJP

Marlow wrote: »

520d E39 and E60 engine would be the same.

Not nearly, read your own post on a list of all engines in the BMW's.

In this bracket:

E39 520TDS - Haven't a clue
E39 525d - 163bhp I6 (post 03/02)
E60 520d - 163 I4 (pre 07/07)
E60 520d LCI - 177 I4 (post 07/07)

That's reasonable progress without even considering CO2.

TJJP

Matt Simis wrote: »

Isnt north of 250 even better? I had 170bhp in a 2.3 VAG 5 cylinder NA engine 6 years ago, so 177 from a turbo'd car is going to impressive much today. Its good relative to the classic 115bhp 8v 2.0 yeah, but not compared to its stablemates. Why settle?

For sure, but that's not what this thread is about. I'd love an E50 M5 for day to day (or even a 530d x-drive with the way things are going round here), but been there done that (well CL600) and I just couldn't justify it on any level again. Do it once, that's also for sure.

Matt Simis

TJJP wrote: »

For sure, but that's not what this thread is about. I'd love an E50 M5 for day to day (or even a 530d x-drive with the way things are going round here), but been there done that (well CL600) and I just couldn't justify it on any level again. Do it once, that's also for sure.

Eh... no one is recommending going hyper performance (you dont consider 250bhp hyper performance surely), the thread isnt about that for sure. Making full use of money is not buying a new(ish) plate entry level car with a nice badge. Thats what the majority are doing, but since this is motoring forum, we can try our best to stem the tide of ignorance. Or encourage that mindset apparently.

TJJP

randox wrote: »

I want to buy a second hand BMW and need some help. I would like leather and as many 'bells & whistles' as possible for under €20,000.

I have been looking at the 3 series. Would prefer to keep it under 2.0 for tax purposes. Any ideas? Thanks.

Sorry, I must have mis-read the OP.

Diamondmaker

I whole heartedly agree that the V6 is the way to go.

I have had a 316-e36, 318-e46 2000 reg and now a 325 2004reg. All in coupes.

To say the difference is noticeable and satisfaction is greater is one helluva'n understatement.

The difference begins the moment you turn the key and you hear that growl, right up to the exhilarating moment just before you see that damn radar hidden in the bushes

Go a year older or so if required fort $ reasons, there is good hunting out there and as suggested also the larger engines will likely come with much better extras.

copacetic

Marlow wrote: »

Well, aren't you nit-picking. I've given plenty of reasons why to go for the bigger engine (ie. bigger engined cars often better spec'ed. N/A is better as you don't have turbo failures, etc.), but you are just hanging yourself in whatever caught your eye.

Thats 2 reasons, the only ones you've given and they are just flawed and hardly compelling. First one is true, they are more expensive, so generally better spec from new. However, there are many more smaller engines around so you can always fine the equivalent spec if you want. Besides why should spec matter if you are talking about great engines?

As for "N/A is better as you don't have turbo failures, etc" it could also be true, if better means potentially more reliable. However this rules out every diesel and all the top end petrols. i.e most of BMWs large engine cars.
So you are ruling out 535i, 535d 530d, 535d, M3 etc and the only valid choice in say the current 3 series is 325i and 330i?

Tea 1000

copacetic wrote: »

As for "N/A is better as you don't have turbo failures, etc" it could also be true, if better means potentially more reliable. However this rules out every diesel and all the top end petrols. i.e most of BMWs large engine cars.
So you are ruling out 535i, 535d 530d, 535d, M3 etc and the only valid choice in say the current 3 series is 325i and 330i?

M3 is N/A

copacetic

Tea 1000 wrote: »

M3 is N/A

It is indeed, I meant to type M5 for the new twin turbo F10 due at frankfurt. We can all see that BMW are phasing out the NA engines one by one?

Voodoomelon

lol, thats the last time I bring up an E38 in a BMW thread.

I think the OP should go for at least a 525 with the €20k they have to spend, a 530d would undoubtedly be the best choice. A great balance between economy and performance. Buying a large engined car second hand makes fantastic financial sense as the cost of motor tax is offset by the depreciation of a smaller engined, newer car.

Matt Simis

Voodoomelon wrote: »

lol, thats the last time I bring up an E38 in a BMW thread.

I think the OP should go for at least a 525 with the €20k they have to spend, a 530d would undoubtedly be the best choice. A great balance between economy and performance. Buying a large engined car second hand makes fantastic financial sense as the cost of motor tax is offset by the depreciation of a smaller engined, newer car.

Short and sweet, totally agree.

randox

Thanks to everyone that read my thread and offer advice based on its content without criticizing the merit of my request.

kebrosnan

Randox, I am in a similar position where I plan on purchasing my first BMW later on this year after many year of deliberating on this manufacturer. I have driven many examples of both 3 and 5 series both petrol and diesel many of which I have to admit I was not that impressed by.

It is only two years ago that I drove a 535d that I was really impressed. I now hope to pick a two year old one in the UK for the same price as a new Passat after putting off changing so I could afford more car for my money. For me, it is the best mix of performance, economy and road tax that meets my needs but I know it is not for everyone.

My point is best thing to do is drive as many of them as you can from 4 cylinder, 6 cylinder petrol and diesel, V6, V8 etc and find which best one meets your requirements and also stirs your soul. Also do your calculations on running costs for the year including road tax and you could be very surprised when all things are considered not even bringing servicing costs into the mix. Everyone and their needs are different.

The points made earlier about the engines getting smoother and sound getting meatier are true but it is a balancing act and really it is what you want at the end of the day that is most important as lets face it, it is you who is paying for it.

Marlow

copacetic wrote: »

Thats 2 reasons, the only ones you've given

I think you need to go back and read the whole thread. Because I also wrote quite a lot more reasons, but this argument is pointless, as you just seem to after people for whatsoever reason.

/M

Marlow

TJJP wrote: »

Not nearly, read your own post on a list of all engines in the BMW's.

In this bracket:

E39 520TDS - Haven't a clue
E39 525d - 163bhp I6 (post 03/02)
E60 520d - 163 I4 (pre 07/07)
E60 520d LCI - 177 I4 (post 07/07)

That's reasonable progress without even considering CO2.

The article, you should look at is this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_M47. The engine in the E60 is slightly more powerful than the E39, but it's the same base engine, that has been updated. The last version of the engine exists in two versions, where one has less power than the original one, one has more.

/M

Marlow

copacetic wrote: »

It is indeed, I meant to type M5 for the new twin turbo F10 due at frankfurt. We can all see that BMW are phasing out the NA engines one by one?

The F10 M5 can not be bought yet and the E60 M5 is also N/A, as for the diesels, yes they are all turbos. And as I stated before, the only reason why BMW is going for turbo's in the petrol engines now, is to bring co2 values further down. Otherwise they would most likely have stayed with N/A.

/M