Australia Deporting Irish for Visa Fraud

shane86

Mahatma coat wrote: »

http://www.immi.gov.au/visitors/working-holiday/417/specified-work.htm#a

seems that Roadhouse is not on the list suggest ya get out and start diggin the Garden Lad:D

Im sorry I told him now Getting caught out would be more than fair considering his attitude to others (though he seems to hate it to much here god knows why he is going for a 2nd year visa)

Beachband

shane86 wrote: »

Im sorry I told him now Getting caught out would be more than fair considering his attitude to others (though he seems to hate it to much here god knows why he is going for a 2nd year visa)

Maybe he will stay on there in the roadhouse and hide from diac when they come lookin!

Don't be so easy to judge others.....the wheel always turns

TBH I think people should do their 3 months regional work if they want a second year in Oz, but its not for me to judge them one way or the other.

Xavi6

Folks, this is getting heated and veering off topic.

We're not discussing people living in the Irish bars in Bondi or anything of the sort.

This is to do with visas and visas only. It's been interesting so please don't give any reason to lock the thread.

Thanks

Zambia

Another way of looking at it is like this.

You scrimp and save for years for a deposit on a house. You prostrate yourself in front of some bank and have your parent sign documents entitling some bank to half a pint of blood should you default. You move in some w*nkers you dont really like to help pay the mortgage. You live on beans and toast and spend every week trying to keep this thing going.

One week you meet your neighbour who explains that he lives in the house next to you with the missus and her kid as the state pays for her as an unmarried mother. He gets rent allowance for being out of work for a place in the next suburb which he sub lets to another lad.

And then gleefully explains that you have to keep that your self now.

No one likes to think they have paid full price for something when someone else gets the same deal on a lie.

Mahatma coat

exactly Zambia, and for a lot of people its a price they'll gladly pay, it does cheapen the whole experience for everyone IMO

Beachband

Zambia232 wrote: »

Another way of looking at it is like this.

You scrimp and save for years for a deposit on a house. You prostrate yourself in front of some bank and have your parent sign documents entitling some bank to half a pint of blood should you default. You move in some w*nkers you dont really like to help pay the mortgage. You live on beans and toast and spend every week trying to keep this thing going.

One week you meet your neighbour who explains that he lives in the house next to you with the missus and her kid as the state pays for her as an unmarried mother. He gets rent allowance for being out of work for a place in the next suburb which he sub lets to another lad.

And then gleefully explains that you have to keep that your self now.

No one likes to think they have paid full price for something when someone else gets the same deal on a lie.

Thats true, but though you scrimp and save your heart out for that house, and then someone moves in next door, exact same house as yours. You call in to your new neighbour and bring with you a little gift to wecome them etc. Ye get talkiing about house prices, yours cost you 400k 9 months ago, they say back to you there's cost 275k - how do you feel about that? - you just get on with repaying your own mortgage.

How many people here have got a job done by people they know - ya I mean foxers - anyone? - - I'm sure allot have - why? - cos it is a benefit to themselves at getting a job done for cheaper, and to the guy who carries out the job as its extra money for him on the side - and he wont have to pay any tax for it to the government.
Are they worried that it is ruining the economy - NO.
Are they worried that the government in turn are looking at this type of fraud all the more? - NO, and then there is a poor law abiding bloke who then looses his job and signs on the dole - only to find he has to meet far stricter policies to allow him just draw his dole, because of this.

Mahatma coat

'foxer' or not I'd still expect the job done to withstand scrutiny;)

Beachband

Social welfare fraud is costing Ireland about 2 billion annually!
The black economy has cost Ireland almost 5 billion in the last year alone!
Are people considering this for the future generation - NO.

Do you then blame someone under 20 in Oz trying to stay on there for another year.
What is in their mind - Stay on in Oz - or come back to over 100euro on the dole(as it has been halved by the government for everyone under that age, no doubt welfare fraud and the black economy had something to do with it).
So they stay on in Oz - contribute to the Oz economy - after all as diac states - any work is incidental to a WHV holiday maker - So I don't think they are exactly taking any proper job from an Aussie. - Just trying to sit it out until the Irish economy picks up.

Again black economy here is 5 billion, and someone previously have said here that Ireland has one of the lowest population density - thats a pretty big figure then.
How many people then from one of the lowest population density Countries are in Oz flouting the rules??

mormank

m@cc@ wrote: »

Because others pay the price for their actions. It makes the Irish look like a bunch of chancers who see rules as things to be broken. End of.

im sorry but it only makes the irish look like a bucnh of chancers to people who are willing to paint all with the same brush! come on, if a group of ozzies wreck a pub in limerick and start fights etc does that mean that we all in limeirck now think that ozzies are all violent people?/ no it means those people are violent. and by the way, writing end of at the end of your post does not make you right..:rolleyes:

mormank

Mahatma coat wrote: »

Ah shur someone needs ta tell The Aussies that their Rules dont apply to the Irish.


Look I am not a big fan of rules and regulations meself, but most Australians are, and they like nice simple clear written on the back of a stamp type rules, like the great boards Catchall 'Dont be a Dick'
they also hold the Concept of a fair go as a central tennet of the culture

so with this in mind some enlightened individual in the Glorious days of the Howard Government decided that a fair go should be extended to all these backpackers who wanted to spend another year here.

its a blindingly simple Fvckin arangement,
1)Go to the Outback, get a Job, stay there for 3 months, get yer employer to sign a form saying that you did it
2) Give that form to an Immigration office
3) No there are no Questionmarks
4)Profit

I just heard from Scottish guy who I sent up to a neighbor of ours in FNQ, he spent 3+ months on a cattle station, faffin about on horses musterin fencin and generally havin the time of his life & Gettin Food Board Booze and a Wage

Thats a fair go and its available to anyone who gets off their arse and wants it.

again a very simplisctic view of it all and you even paint a picture of rainbows and daffodils while you're at it!! you make it sound like we should all be rushing off to do this seasonal work as it is fantastic and we will enjoy it. make no mistake about it, if this type of work was easy or enjoyable it would not be a must for getting a second year! however as always there will be exceptions to the rule, a few people will really enjoy their time there, but i would wager that these are the people who generally enjoy life anyways..

mormank

Mahatma coat wrote: »

I'm happy enough with my Legal status here at the moment, I may have had some of the terminology wrong previously, but thankfully friendly and helpful people such as yerself corrected me, I havent broken any laws to stay here.

as for 'Layin doen the Law' I think you'll find that the Australian government did that, I'm merely the messenger in that respect.

OK so the Irish go for broke and milk the System for all its worth, then what, what happens in 2-3 years time when the Australians get sick of it, at the least the WHV2 is withdrawn for Irish citizens, then what, is it still a bit f harmless craic? when they have ruined it for an entire future generation.

remember there was a fashion a few years ago for lads to take on big payin jobs with the promise of sponsorship, only to f'off after a few weeks.

whats the harm eh? well try being Irish and gettin a job even if you genuinley wanted to stay, these lads burned so many people that being Irish was a really really bad thing when lookin for a job.

thats the point, Ireland and the Irish dont hold any special place in the hearts of Australians despite what we may delude ourselves, and as ya shold know yerself if you liver her and have ever seen TodayTonight or any other schlockjourno tv show, they hate people who try to buck the system

well firstly if they remove the option of a second WHV there farmers will be rightly fooked as the will have nobody to pick their fruit ect..now one of you experts could say better than me what the ripple effects of this would be.

p.s. this should be renamed the self righteous thread of australia

mormank

JONJO THE MISER wrote: »

Aww Hussey who are youm fooling half the Irish people here on whv dont want to go outside Melbourne or Sydney or there little Gaa jersey wearing circle, you see they all the smart guys who think they know it all and how they can con the system just because they know someone from there next parish back home, they seem to think this is London or new york in the 80's early 90's where it was a case of begorh we build the place, a lot of them should never be allowed to travel outside Ireland because they bring they little Parish crap with them, and they think they are a bonus to Aus:D, yeah get out of Bondi or wherever and make a go of it if you want but dont get stuck it the crap of the Irish expat community abroad because most of the older Irish here in Aus/Canada/Usa want nothing to do with a gang of loud mouhted ignorant Gaa wearing Idiots who are better off back home because they will never let go of the ouold parish.

ok now i have a question for you. i am curently living in melbourne and have been for some time. i have a job here, i pay my taxes, i fully intend on staying here past my WHV through sponsorship. i have made many friends while here in melbourne and generally have carved out a life for myself. i know two irish guys living in melbourne. now does this make me one of these 'smart guys who think they know it all' or a GAA wearing freak as you are basically putting it.

I had my own reasons for wanting to get out of ireland, reasons which i will not get into on this thread, however i have no desire to travel around the outback anymore than i already have. Now does this mean you think i would also be better off at home in ireland?

writetojd

Just to chuck in my 2 cents. I did my 88 days hard slog in the middle of nowhere. As I was applying for mine I heard of a girl in the hostel (English) that worked a week applied online and got hers within 3 hours of applying. I had to wait 6 days to hear back even though I was at the end of my visa. Wasnt to pleased to hear she got hers in no time and I had to wait a good while for mine.

Most people I know that have applied have worked 3 months but might be short a few days. Dont know too many that applied with no regional work but the majority of them knew the risks of applying and were happy to accept the consequences. Most said theyd leave come back on a tourist visa and see the remaining part of the country on the 3 month visa.

The thing is when you apply online you dont have to send any documents. You put in the start and finish date and the ABN number but you dont have to send any other info unless you wanted. I got mine stamped in case I had to fax it. Its probably too easy to apply and mudle the details.

I happened to bump into my old boss though a few weeks ago and she said that they had a call from immigration asking about visa applicants. They sent a list of names that claimed to have worked there and a few names didnt match so obviously they got the details of mates or the internet.

I can see why people chance it but its not that hard to leave the city for 3-4 months to get your 2nd yr. I know its all doom and gloom at home and the chance to stay in the sunshine for 12 months is a huge draw. I face a signing on when I go home if I can't get back to college.

DERICKOO

this is where it comes from:mad:





Irish backpackers tempted by scam to win second year visa


SYDNEY LETTER: Australia’s department of immigration is going after those who have found their way around the rules, writes PADRAIG COLLINS
AN IRISHMAN was recently fined Aus$1,400 (€850) and expelled from Australia after being convicted of immigration fraud. Other backpackers from Ireland are under investigation for similar frauds.
The man was convicted after admitting he bought employment verification details for a second year working holiday visa (WHV) for $500.
For backpackers to get a second WHV they must work for three months in agricultural or regional work during their first visa year. Typically this involves working as a fruit picker or on a building site in a rural area.
From the time the second WHV scheme was introduced in November 2005, about 4,000 Irish have extended their stay.
But many backpackers, in their anxiety to get the visa without doing the tough work, have risked imprisonment for up to 10 years, and/or a fine of up to $110,000 by claiming they worked on a farm when they did not.
This work is “proved” with the provision of the Australian business number (ABN) of a farmer who has previously hired backpackers, saying you worked there too.
One story doing the rounds of the backpacker community concerns a man, since returned to Ireland, who made tens of thousands of dollars selling ABNs to backpackers desperate to get a second year visa.
Using an alias, he took out adverts on the Gumtree backpacker website under the heading: “2nd year visa, no problem.” A fee of $400 would then be required to be paid directly into his bank account once the visa was granted.
Many thought he was a farm manager, reducing the risk of a comeback should the visa application be randomly checked and denied.
He told clients that the Department of Immigration and Citizenship (DIAC) checked only 10 per cent of second WHV applications. These are done online to ensure details are correct.
One Irish backpacker said he was contacted by e-mail after he placed an advert on Gumtree looking for farm work which would help him get a second WHV.
“The e-mail said if I gave them $400, they would give me details on how I could get the visa without having to do any farm work,” he said.
He turned down the offer, but many others did not and may now be under investigation.
A DIAC spokesperson said: “The department has successfully prosecuted an Irish national for second working holiday visa fraud. Another case has recently been accepted by the Commonwealth director of public prosecutions and others are under consideration . . . The department has recently cancelled 32 second working holiday visas in New South Wales on the basis of fraudulent documentation, and refused many applications.”
DIAC director Deidre Russack spoke at a backpacker conference last weekend . “There’s a lot of fraud . . . they’re not working in regional areas,” she said.
“Immigration is trying to do something about it . . . There’s a lot of work going on in the department around this issue.”

mormank

m@cc@ wrote: »

Yeah, what you have there a good old cause and effect but unfortunately, it doesn't cut it. It's the equivalent of implying a banker only commits fraud because he doesn't have enough money to a mansion. If he wants a mansion he should work for it. Fraud is fraud no matter what spin you try and put on it.




Em.....they are checking. See thread title. And again, you're trying to absolve people from commiting fraud. If a shopkeeper forgets to lock his store, do you go in and rob it?

ah no, but if the same shopkeepers NEVER locks his store should he be surprised when it is robbed and start crying bloody murder. it is simple, lock your store! there will always be people out there willing to go inside and help themselves. I am not saying these people arent wrong but this is the society we live in these im afraid

eringobragh

Irish Echo's article about this:

http://www.irishecho.com.au/2010/01/13/irish-nationals-deported-in-whv-clampdown/1465

Irish Echo wrote:

Irish nationals deported in WHV clampdown

More than 12 Irish nationals have been detained and deported from Australia so far in 2010.

MORE than a dozen Irish 
nationals have been detained and deported from Australia in the first two weeks of the new year as the Department of Immigration began a serious crackdown on illegally-obtained second Working Holiday Visas (WHVs), the Irish Echo has learned.

In Sydney alone, seven Irish citizens – five of whom are 
understood to be female – were all stopped at immigration as they returned to Australia after spending Christmas in Ireland.

The seven people in question each spent a night’s detention in Villawood Prison in western Sydney before being deported to Ireland within 24 hours.

The actual number of Irish citizens to have been detained and deported at various Australian airports so far this year is believed to be far higher than the 12 cases the Irish Echo knows about, with the Department beginning to lower the boom on people who 
attained their second-year WHVs illegitimately.

No specific details were available on just how many others were detained and deported outside of the known incidents in Sydney, but the Echo has learned of at least one case in Brisbane.

A significant number of Irish citizens are also believed to have been refused entry to the country so far this year, but in most cases those in question were simply turned away and put straight back on a flight to Ireland.

That, in turn, is believed to have angered several airlines, and cost them thousands of dollars.

An airline that brings a person into the country is also responisble for footing the cost of their removal should they not be allowed in by immigration, and the spate of recent refusals has proven to be a costly development.

The string of deportations form part of the Department’s latest efforts to crack down on those obtaining second WHVs by fraudulently claiming to have undertaken three-months’ 
regional work – the minimum necessary requirement to 
become eligible to apply for a second 12-month visa.

Late last year, the Irish Echo revealed how a number of fraudsters were making thousands of dollars by selling 
employment verification details, which were then being used to fraudulantly apply for second WHVs.

Last October we reported on how the Department was investigating a Wicklow man – using the alias of Kevin Doyle – who alone had made more than $60,000 by selling details to more than 150 people.

In November, an Irishman became the first known person to have been convicted of using the scheme to defraud the country.

He was fined $1,400 and deported after admitting to obtaining a WHV by fraudulent means, but the Department has now stepped up the ante even further as it attempts to track down anyone who availed of the fraud.

A spokesperson for the Department told the Echo that anyone caught on a fraudulent visa faced more than just visa cancellation and deportation – jail time, and serious fines, would also highly possible.

“The Department of Immigration and Citizenship has strengthened integrity measures to detect and deter fraud within the Working Holiday Visa program,” the spokesman said.

“The second Working Holiday Visa program will be closely scrutinised by the 
department on an ongoing basis to ensure applicants are acting in accordance with immigration law.

“The Australian Government regards immigration fraud as a serious offence that will not be tolerated.

“Temporary visa holders who acquire a visa fraudulently are liable for cancellation of their visa and removal from Australia and can also face criminal charges with jail terms of up to 10 years and/or a fine of up to $110 000.”

by Aaron Dunne

m@cc@

mormank wrote: »

ah no, but if the same shopkeepers NEVER locks his store should he be surprised when it is robbed and start crying bloody murder. it is simple, lock your store! there will always be people out there willing to go inside and help themselves. I am not saying these people arent wrong but this is the society we live in these im afraid

Yes, but the discussion isn't about whether we should be surprised, it's whether it's justified. People are committing fraud because they couldn't be bothered their arse to do some work in the sticks. End of.

eringobragh

m@cc@ wrote: »

Yes, but the discussion isn't about whether we should be surprised, it's whether it's justified. People are committing fraud because they couldn't be bothered their arse to do some work in the sticks. End of.

Irish aren't the only one's being done for fraud. The farmer a friend of mine got his dodgy visa through is being investigated for fraud.

mormank

m@cc@ wrote: »

Yes, but the discussion isn't about whether we should be surprised, it's whether it's justified. People are committing fraud because they couldn't be bothered their arse to do some work in the sticks. End of.

true true. and i would love to live in a world where shopkeepers didnt have to lock their stores or didnt need security but alas it is not so. It is not justified and your opinion does sit on the right side of the law however i will just say that it is not always as black and white as people not being arsed to go do the work! in some cases there could be genuine reasons why they were unable to and then wanted the second year.

Look lets be honest here, your argument of fraudsters taking visas from people looking for thier first year visas is mute imo as in a perfect world as you sugges these fraudsters would just go do the work anyway to get their second years, thereby taking the visas off other peopl anyway. The only thing being not done here is the actual work so in essence the only people missing out are the farmers who should have a higher workforce to draw from, that is all. And while some people do just get ABN's off the net or whatever for their applications their are plenty of farmers out there willing to accept money in exchange for signing people off for having done the work so imo maybe these are the people that should be investigated.

Its like someone said earlier, should we be cracking down on recreational drug takers or drug dealers? Besides it shouldnt be so easily accessible..i.e. stricter parameters should be in place. I know of two people (actual friends of mine, not hearsay) who didnt even bother looking up ABN's or anything, thye merely applied online and had their second year visas the next day! i mean come on, the next day people!!!!

mormank

eringobragh wrote: »

Irish aren't the only one's being done for fraud. The farmer a friend of mine got his dodgy visa through is being investigated for fraud.

and thats a step in the right direction imo as those lookin for the dodgy visas will come and go but these farmers are the ones that will be around for years to come making a nice little second tax free income from fraud. For everyone else its a once off thing (not saying that makes it right or anything by the way)

PhiliousPhogg

The civil servant's quick fix: Make an example out of a few people, but don't change the system.

NikNakOoo

[FONT=&quot]I don't know why people are harping on... if people try to get in the back door and get busted, then tough.

shane86 wrote: »

EDIT- hadnt even noticed this quote until after I had said about the great Aussie obsession of racist ranting. Nail, head, etc....

Woah! Way to misquote for your own agenda!!! You took a lighthearted comment and totally twisted it to continue making a point that Australian's are racist. Hey kettle, meet the pot... now call it black.

[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]

shane86 wrote: »

[/FONT] I seem to recall you have an Aussie passport. Did you actually ever work a farm? I doubt it.

You are missing the point... Xavi6 is in Australia LEGALLY... so what if he has or hasn't worked in a farm?

Zambia

Beachband wrote: »

Thats true, but though you scrimp and save your heart out for that house, and then someone moves in next door, exact same house as yours. You call in to your new neighbour and bring with you a little gift to wecome them etc. Ye get talkiing about house prices, yours cost you 400k 9 months ago, they say back to you there's cost 275k - how do you feel about that? - you just get on with repaying your own mortgage.

Of course because in this case he was simply more fortunate he did not lie to achieve the result.

Beachband wrote: »

How many people here have got a job done by people they know - ya I mean foxers - anyone? - - I'm sure allot have - why? - cos it is a benefit to themselves at getting a job done for cheaper, and to the guy who carries out the job as its extra money for him on the side - and he wont have to pay any tax for it to the government.
Are they worried that it is ruining the economy - NO.
Are they worried that the government in turn are looking at this type of fraud all the more? - NO, and then there is a poor law abiding bloke* who then looses his job and signs on the dole - only to find he has to meet far stricter policies to allow him just draw his dole, because of this.

Yes and if you ask the tradie who is qouting all his jobs by the book is he pissed at people working of the books and not paying tax what will he/she say? He will say yes it f*cks me off royally.

So you can understand when people here like * above say that they are f8cked off when someone gets the visa they spent 88 days in the wilderness for to stay in Australia by lying on a form.

shane86

NikNakOoo wrote: »

[FONT=&quot]

Woah! Way to misquote for your own agenda!!! You took a lighthearted comment and totally twisted it to continue making a point that Australian's are racist. Hey kettle, meet the pot... now call it black.

Lighthearted my left one. When I used to go drinking with an office crowd in my old job you couldnt go 10 minutes without racist ranting taking off. Its an Aussie tradition pretty much.

[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]
You are missing the point... Xavi6 is in Australia LEGALLY... so what if he has or hasn't worked in a farm?

Because he seems to like living here, and its easy to say people should do the farm work without having actually experienced the abusive slavery of working under a tightarse Queensland redneck. The rat them out attitude expressed by some here is disgusting.

hussey

shane86 wrote: »

Lighthearted my left one. When I used to go drinking with an office crowd in my old job you couldnt go 10 minutes without racist ranting taking off. Its an Aussie tradition pretty much.

You are labelling all Aussies with the same brush. This is about visa issues not racism, why do you have to drag this up?

Because he seems to like living here, and its easy to say people should do the farm work without having actually experienced the abusive slavery of working under a tightarse Queensland redneck. The rat them out attitude expressed by some here is disgusting.

Please point out the post where anyone claimed to have ratted anyone out.
there was a few lighthearted comments on page 1, but no one has claimed to rat anyone out. Most of the attitudes are, if they do something illegal and get caught they cannot have any complaints, surely even you can accept this?

Abusive slavery eh? So you were whipped and chained without any money?
Yes, some of the work is bloody back breaking hard work, but others is just mind numbing. You are the only person I heard use the word slavery.
Maybe you should look up the word?
Because making ridiculous statements like that is not winning anyone over.

m@cc@

shane86 wrote: »

Lighthearted my left one. When I used to go drinking with an office crowd in my old job you couldnt go 10 minutes without racist ranting taking off. Its an Aussie tradition pretty much.

Ha ha. Cultural stereotyping. The ironing is delicious.

Mahatma coat

Nah Hussey, others have alluded to Slavery as well.

It shows an attitude shift in the younger generations that IMO We could do without, was never a generation of Irish people more averse to the concept of a hard days work than this one


People blame the Economy ands crap like that, its our fault for not givin them the prerequisite Kick in the Hole when they were younger and reminding them of their place in the world.

shane86

hussey wrote: »

You are labelling all Aussies with the same brush. This is about visa issues not racism, why do you have to drag this up?

Because someone dragged up the apparent awfulness of hanging out with Irish and drinking with them. I pointed out that the only other option is a souless bar where everyone is old, ranting and on the pokies.

Please point out the post where anyone claimed to have ratted anyone out.
there was a few lighthearted comments on page 1, but no one has claimed to rat anyone out. Most of the attitudes are, if they do something illegal and get caught they cannot have any complaints, surely even you can accept this?

I think its highly unfair seeing as we are not stealing jobs.

Abusive slavery eh? So you were whipped and chained without any money?
Yes, some of the work is bloody back breaking hard work, but others is just mind numbing. You are the only person I heard use the word slavery.
Maybe you should look up the word?
Because making ridiculous statements like that is not winning anyone over.

I would call earning 6 dollars for working between 6am and midday near on slavery. Its a scam, they would completely over staff the farm in the knowledge the majority of workers would get pissed off and leave to be replaced by another group 3 days later, and that these people would not bother their arse trying to extract the whopping 12- 20 dollars they made in their time on the farm. Which means the farmer got labour without having to pay for it. Quite a nice little cost cutter you must agree!

It shows an attitude shift in the younger generations that IMO We could do without, was never a generation of Irish people more averse to the concept of a hard days work than this one


People blame the Economy ands crap like that, its our fault for not givin them the prerequisite Kick in the Hole when they were younger and reminding them of their place in the world.

Absoloute bollix. Anyone refuse to work hard in the sun all day for the price of a pint, assuming they even got paid. It is embarassing and exploitative. I did my country bit and earned a nice amount but I got lucky. Its often ok for girls as well, as they can get jobs in packing sheds on an hourly wage, but lads often get completely shafted on these farms.

seandeas

good on the Australian govt. The Irish government would do well to take a leaf out of their book and get tough on all the illegals here- without having them dragging it through the courts for years - a la Pamela Izevbekhai and her fellow countrymen...

Mahatma coat

They dont have to do it, but they are not entitle to stay if they dont, and they have no one to blame except themselves should they get turfed out of the country.


I really cant see why people are defending these Scumbags.

or How pwoplw seem to think that having to Work is somehow demeaning, sure lets just put all these 'TigerCubs' into a glass case and throw sugar at them, heaven forbid they should find out that the world is a cold and uncaring place where people will not hand you everything 'just because'