Before considering medicine as a career READ THIS!

vinnylombardi99

Ha, this thread is funny. the scaremongering going on is laughable. there are a couple of things that spring to mind.

1. to people considering medicine; if you think medicine is a walk in the park as a career, you need to go see a doctor for a head exam.

2. to the folks already in there; if you think that medicine is harder than any other career, you also need to see a doctor.

Sure, some doctors have it bad, but a lot have it good. Same applies across the board. From my own experience, no matter what job it is, if you are at the bottom of the pile, you gotta shovel the most dirt. when you are the top, it's rosey.

I do think you shold know what you are getting yourself into but at the same time, basing any decision on the warning of an annonymous internet message board posting, ffs!
Go find out for yourself by trying it. Maybe you'll enjoy it, maybe you wont. Be ready for hell and take anything better than that as a bonus.

http://drcoxmedschool.blogspot.com/

Brods

Maybe I underestimated the difficulties with going stateside, of course I realised ya had to do USMLEs but didn't consider the visa situation. Does anyone know if I was to get a visa in the diversity (greencard) lottery do you have to be able to take it up straight away?

"HOW LONG DO APPLICANTS WHO ARE SELECTED REMAIN ENTITLED TO APPLY FOR VISAS IN THE DV CATEGORY?
Persons selected in the DV-2011 lottery are entitled to apply for visa issuance only during fiscal year 2011, from October 1, 2010, through September 30, 2011. Applicants must obtain their visa or adjust status by the end of the fiscal year. There is no carry-over of DV benefits into the next year for persons who are selected but who do not obtain visas by September 30, 2010 (the end of the fiscal year.). Also, spouses and children who derive status from a DV-2011 registration can only obtain visas in the DV category between October 2010 and September 2011. Applicants who apply overseas will receive an appointment letter from the KCC four to six weeks before the scheduled appointment."

Question is, do I need to be able to move to the states within the year or can I get the visa and then not actually go and have it if I need it? Only 3rd med now so applying in october would be pretty useless if I had to move there before even starting final year!

wayhey

This is a really interesting thread, and i've a few questions..if anyone in the job can answer, i'd b grateful..
(1) With all the talk of emmigration, when is the best time to go? After intern year? I'd be wondering particularly about the States..
(2) Would/have/will you choose another career? Do you regret it? What's you're alternate career?

(3) With other people, have you lost touch with good friends from school/college? Is it hard to meet people, relationships-wise? Do most end up wit someone from the medical field?

(4)What is your favourite aspect of the job? Or what do you like about your work?

(5)Hospital medicine is soul-crushing and its impossible to get into the GP programme. With that scenario what are your options without returning to college? Is it hard to get into academia/research?

Sorry if any mistakes, done on phone...great thread guys, thank you.

dissed doc

Brods wrote: »

Maybe I underestimated the difficulties with going stateside, of course I realised ya had to do USMLEs but didn't consider the visa situation. Does anyone know if I was to get a visa in the diversity (greencard) lottery do you have to be able to take it up straight away?
.....

Question is, do I need to be able to move to the states within the year or can I get the visa and then not actually go and have it if I need it? Only 3rd med now so applying in october would be pretty useless if I had to move there before even starting final year!

Usually you need to simply use it once to enter the US within a year of getting the interview. You can that by going on holiday for e.g., a week and coming back. BUT, you need to fill out some form to ensure that they know that although you are a permanent resident now, you can get around 1 year abroad. If you repeatedly do not assume residency, they will revoke the green card. To justify them allowing you to keep it > 2 years, you should have money, investments, and so in the US, fill out a yearly IRS form to pay US income taxes (just like George Hook says) (along with your taxes in Ireland BTW, although there are some tax credits).

imported_guy

Brods wrote: »

Maybe I underestimated the difficulties with going stateside, of course I realised ya had to do USMLEs but didn't consider the visa situation. Does anyone know if I was to get a visa in the diversity (greencard) lottery do you have to be able to take it up straight away?

"HOW LONG DO APPLICANTS WHO ARE SELECTED REMAIN ENTITLED TO APPLY FOR VISAS IN THE DV CATEGORY?
Persons selected in the DV-2011 lottery are entitled to apply for visa issuance only during fiscal year 2011, from October 1, 2010, through September 30, 2011. Applicants must obtain their visa or adjust status by the end of the fiscal year. There is no carry-over of DV benefits into the next year for persons who are selected but who do not obtain visas by September 30, 2010 (the end of the fiscal year.). Also, spouses and children who derive status from a DV-2011 registration can only obtain visas in the DV category between October 2010 and September 2011. Applicants who apply overseas will receive an appointment letter from the KCC four to six weeks before the scheduled appointment."

Question is, do I need to be able to move to the states within the year or can I get the visa and then not actually go and have it if I need it? Only 3rd med now so applying in october would be pretty useless if I had to move there before even starting final year!

i dont know but it wont hurt if u win and accept straight away you can do some clinicals over there and your application will stand out more since you will probably have strong letters of reccomendations from US physicians, and also would be an advantage applying to the same hospital you did your rotations at since they will know what you're like they will put you before others granted they dont hate you

dissed doc

wayhey wrote: »

This is a really interesting thread, and i've a few questions..if anyone in the job can answer, i'd b grateful..
(1) With all the talk of emmigration, when is the best time to go? After intern year? I'd be wondering particularly about the States..

Depends on your field and whether it's full on emigration or just training. For emigration, obviously the sooner you get a green card and leave (as soon as you graduate, before ever bothering with internship here) the better. For training, with no green card, many many residencies including some of the best ones will be closed to you as they don't want to spend thosuands processing visas when there may be a local graduate, unless of course you are great and will boost the departments name. In this case, non emigration route, you are better off having some experience, some US electives in the summer, publications, etc., to get in the door.

(2) Would/have/will you choose another career? Do you regret it? What's you're alternate career?

I would like to be a pirate, but failing that, I am pretty happy with medicine.

(3) With other people, have you lost touch with good friends from school/college? Is it hard to meet people, relationships-wise? Do most end up wit someone from the medical field?

The diversity of fields in medicine means some people only ever see their small group of colleagues, others may be working in Africa for MSF. Who you meet and what you spend your time doing, is entirely up to you.

(4)What is your favourite aspect of the job? Or what do you like about your work?

Improving peoples' lives.

(5)Hospital medicine is soul-crushing and its impossible to get into the GP programme. With that scenario what are your options without returning to college? Is it hard to get into academia/research?

There are huge differences in field. The only standard soul crushingness is during internship. After that, your days, working time, etc., are largely something you balance up for yourself. Like someone said above, when you are at the bottom, you have shovel a lot more. A lot of docs think they are special (true, I said it), especially new grads until they normalise a little and adapt to the real world. If you give a nurse of 20 years a hard time as a 1 week old intern, you deserve what you get. At this stage, doctors start to grow up at different paces. 10 years later, you'll see who is a consultant and who is seemingly an eternal registrar.

Academia in Ireland is pretty primitive compared to the UK, US, Aus, Germany and Netherlands, who drive a lot of it. That said, again, your chosen field might be one with the main academia people based in Bangalore. You need to seek out what you want and then find who is doing it. Ireland does not have the money now and certainly will have less and less for any research as the next decade comes and goes.

All IMHO of course.

just-joe

As a prospective med student, I've been following this very interesting thread closely. I have limited knowledge of the medical world but judging from the different opinions that come and go here it seems that its like anything else in life - people have varied experiences, and each individual's experience will contain good and not so good parts.

After being thrown off from reading the negative stories, I'm back on track and think med could still be for me, especially since travelling/living somewhere else would suit me down to the ground!

Now I'm just wondering: after the reading the posts about America, and how hard it is to jump through the loops to get in, do many Irish people actually manage to get over there and get jobs? I assume its alot less than the number that go to Oz/NZ?

And also, do many people head somewhere completely random? South America/Asia/mainland Europe?

dissed doc

just-joe wrote: »

And also, do many people head somewhere completely random? South America/Asia/mainland Europe?

Few do, for the reason that as with people in the UK, most Ireland people lack any real standardised and examined spoken non-English language skills. For example, there are around 1500 jobs advertised for doctors in the EU every month, across all fields and all levels of experience. This excludes private hospitals.

People are going to Aus/NZ or Canada becuase of perceived money and quality of life. I don't understand this myself, as money seems high in western europe countries. Certainly, you will have higher purchasing power in netherlands, germany and united kingdom on a consultants salary there than in Ireland now.

The UEMS equalised all qualifications. A surgeon from Lithuania can work as a surgeon in Ireland, Spain, etc., . In reality, the UK is the main target as salaries are much higher there than elsewhere. Ireland now is quite unattractive as a destination as the low work quality of life is no longer offset by increased compensation.

moncai

I've read this thread over the last while as it has progressed, and one thing seems alarmingly clear from most of the posters. There doesn't seem to be much if any co-ordination among junior doctors regarding their union and attempting to effect some positive change in relation to their working conditions.
It seems that the reportedly punishing working conditions of recently qualified doctors is the cause of this because they have neither the spare energy nor time required to mount any kind of unified complaint or challenge to the HSE.
That and a noble attitude of self sacrifice for the benefit of the patient nearest to hand where you seem to forgoe your own personal concerns in the interest of a sick person looking for your help.
It sounds like a very difficult situation to be in.

If this is the case can there be an option of employing paid representatives to actively seek change on your behalf?
I'm sure someone will point out some already existing union which is supposedly charged with protecting your rights as an employee yes?
Well if they aren't doing thier job adequately can you not politely show them the door and employ others in their place?

I just find it sad that doctors, traditionally reverred as one of the guardians of a society up there with Judges et al. have been reduced to such a state of dejection and cynicism.
You're meant to be healers right? that's the whole idea. The concept of causing damage to your own comrades through bullying or subversion seems anathaema to me for what you're about. That type of behaviour seems more suited to the cutthroat world of business and mercantilism. One explanation for this dramatic change in practice and attitude of doctors could be this:
Traditionally medicine has been the exclusive realm of the most 'intelligent' students in order to ensure the individual concerned has the ability to handle the pressures of the responsibilites given. That's a good approach to recruiting medical students however it seems that those most 'intelligent' went into medicine not to improve the standard of healthcare or advance our knowledge of the human system but to improve their own situation in a field unprepared for their cut-throat tactics. It makes sense really, they saw an opportunity of a field in which no one else was in it for the money and they gained entry and proceeded to feather their nests.
So it seems you have been infiltrated by people with the wrong motives and as a result your profession has crumbled from within over a few short decades. This could nearly explain the bad attitude of the HSE towards doctors... if you found your employees to be selfserving arrogant and disinterested you'd prob be pissed off with them too.
I guess the Hpat requirement and the introduction of the graduate entry programs have gone some way towards refining recruitment.

However now we hear complaints of graduates and young doctors full of enthusiasm and a desire to improve the well-being of their fellow man having their soul destroyed by the consequences due to those that went before them. It really looks like ripe ground for a revolution if you ask me.
No doctor can be expected to bear the responsibility of a patients care having been deprived of sleep for the previous 12 hours let alone 24 or 36. It's grossly irresponsible and immoral for the HSE to expect it.

I mean you commanded high wages before because you were a limited expert resource yes, but also because the work you do is so pressure intensive when someone elses life may depend on you.
Traditionally people paid anything they could to secure your intervention and therefore improve their own chances of living healthily.
People will pay again in the private system.
I reckon that's your best way forward, you can demand your own rates and demand a certain standard of working conditions. I guess the problem is that entry to status as a consultant where you can command and demand is controlled by the HSE and it's bottle-neck system of training.
Trying to repair your relationship with your employer seems to be an important step. If they won't deal with you reasonably then go to the public and petition them to mandate the government to intervene within the HSE? I dunno if that can effectively be done when executives in HSE are on higer wages than ministers... the balance of power is subconsciously tilted in favour of the non-governmental execs.

I know i may have used some langauge in this post which seems to stereotype or pigeonhole certain factions but my intention is more to understand the situation as represented by the op than to support any particular view. Nor do i attempt to solve this puzzling situation for you.
As a prospective GAMSAT testee i certainly hope that;
1. I get in! and
2. That the system has improved when i start working to the extent that yes, i may still get my ass handed to me as an intern but after that i get support as a raw junior doctor rather than punishing conditions in which i try to grow.

As and outsider i have no idea of any practical way of effecting change for you guys but i certainly hope some bright spark among you has it in them to set something in motion. Otherwise i'll try when/if i get there i guess.

danthefan

I was all set on doing the GAMSATs, I knew the early years of medicine would be tough with all the hours and being at the bottom of the foodchain and the likes but I had it in my head this was a) something I'd love to do and b) something I could make a career out of. I've sort of been waiting for something to come along and stop me in my tracks, and I think this thread is it, particularly now b) above seems to be in a fair bit of doubt.

EmmaGEM11

I posted on another thread asking what life was like post GEM. I came across this thread. Wow. I just wanted to say thank you to everyone who contributed, I really think it is a service to potential med students that we get the real facts.

Excellent post.

Zenith23

Good god!

I just read through a few posts and belated this may be I am appalled!
What kind of society condones the restricting and suppressing of hard working people?

Reading through, I was, in truth, exasperated by the sheer volume of claims of corruption in the current Irish health system. Do the HSEs and politicians not realise that there not only driving young doctors away but actually giving them no alternative but to leave this country? Unpaid overtime? "Overlooked" wages? Imminent bullying?!

Suffice to say, this board has indeed opened my eyes on some matters and highlighted the current systems overall incompetence but I still have every intention of practicing medicine....In Ireland however, I'm not too sure :rolleyes:

J_E

If you were to work in another EU country, would there not be a massive language barrier? It's just the one thing that's struck me about emigrating really.

dissed doc

Cydoniac wrote: »

If you were to work in another EU country, would there not be a massive language barrier? It's just the one thing that's struck me about emigrating really.

All things being equal, half the doctors in Ireland don't come from an English speaking country or one where English is taught as a second language from a young age; we don't get huge amounts of applicants from Norway, for example.

The european framework for languages is a good basis, and generally speaking, you need B1 level at a minimum to work in the country (beyond bar or cafe jobs) and C1 at professional level. A 2-3 month course in a country of your choice will see you get at least B2 but more likely C1 if your job depends on it. Sweden, etc., pay for language training.

The main problem you will see is that many countries in europe match trainees to state consultant/attending jobs, so there may be few vacancies (in Ireland, we have loads of training jobs, little else).

Scientist1

Hi, thanks a mill for the info (even though it is quite dis-heartening)...At the moment, I'm saving / studying for the GAMSAT's. I've already done a BSc & MSc in Science. First job: clinical data management - ridiculously low wages, impossible to live in Dublin (39 hour week though) - and a Science degree was a requirement for this job. Then spent 2 years working as a contract technician in a pharmaceutical company, got paid for a 39 hour week and worked 60 - 100 hrs/week, no union, did the hrs in fear of contract not being renewed, etc...Now back to boring 39 hour brain-dead work, most of my colleagues barely have a leaving cert...although I suppose I am lucky to have a job in these times...

If / when I finish Medicine, I will be 33 yrs old and approx. 100,000e in debt...am I absolutely crazy? What are the wages like? Would I be able to pay this loan off within the required 10 years or will I end up the most over-educated bank-rupt person???!!!

Anyone else in this situation???....

pewpew12

Hi Scientist1, i kind of know what you mean, although I do live on the otherside of the world in NZ!

I'm working in a 9-5 public sector job (with a masters degree where most my colleagues generally have nothing) on a moderate wage. I just sat gamsat this year and will aim for 2012 entry in Aus and will graduate at age 30/31. As a warning I find these types of threads can be useful to a point but tend to focus on extremes, usually negative though to enlighten us 'newbies'. So take everything with a grain of salt.

I also have thestudent debt issue, (do you guys have to pay it off in 10 years?) but my main concern since I am recently married (wife studying at the moment with debt) is the 4 years with no income, difficulty on her whilst I study. If you are single then you have a lot more freedom to move around and work long hours, live like a bum.

Although I can only speak from Aus/NZ, you will eventually earn plenty as a doctor - all types incl GP's earn higher than almost every occupation so it will definitely 'pay off' in terms of $$, just not straight away. What other occupations can guarantee such a good income? People always say - a partner in a law firm or a CEO or CFO's make just as much if not more than a doc....ok....but what small % of law grads / finance grads or other professionals get to that stage, its a long road for them even if the do. Med is a secure career where you will make money, with the future situation you may have to move around but its a lot more secure than a lot of professions.

For me I hate the idea of doing a mind dead job / excel spreadsheets for the rest of my working life. Lets just get drunk and play pingpong.

Scientist1

Thanks, you're right - the "perfect" job doesn't exist and most of these people would not do any other profession anyway...I'm trying to save as much as possible now and then hopefully be able to work part-time..
Best of Luck - I hope to start in 2012 as well - at least we know the dead-end job will end - never give up on your dreams!!!

ThatDrGuy

Scientist1 wrote: »

Hi, thanks a mill for the info (even though it is quite dis-heartening)...At the moment, I'm saving / studying for the GAMSAT's. I've already done a BSc & MSc in Science. First job: clinical data management - ridiculously low wages, impossible to live in Dublin (39 hour week though) - and a Science degree was a requirement for this job. Then spent 2 years working as a contract technician in a pharmaceutical company, got paid for a 39 hour week and worked 60 - 100 hrs/week, no union, did the hrs in fear of contract not being renewed, etc...Now back to boring 39 hour brain-dead work, most of my colleagues barely have a leaving cert...although I suppose I am lucky to have a job in these times...

If / when I finish Medicine, I will be 33 yrs old and approx. 100,000e in debt...am I absolutely crazy? What are the wages like? Would I be able to pay this loan off within the required 10 years or will I end up the most over-educated bank-rupt person???!!!

Anyone else in this situation???....

You sir will be neck deep in the big muddy. Cant say what things will be like when you qualify (we may be back to exorcisms and trepenation at that stage) but if you qualified tomorrow you would be in trouble. It will take you at least 5 years to become a GP (if you are lucky enough to get on scheme ) and several more to get set up enough to earn anything. You will find it practically impossible to persue a career in hospital medicine at that age because the training schemes will go to the 20 somethings. Besides do you really want to spend 1 in 6 nights on call aged 35+ ? With that level of debt you wont be able to afford a house or family, unless your significant other is very well off. I had 15,000 euro student debt and i had a lot of trouble paying it off over 3 years. Might seem daft but you have so many ancillary expenses for being a doctor - moving house every few months, insurance, exams, courses etc that you can literally come out with nothing saved after a year. Plus I have a modest lifestyle, no mortgage, family, holidays etc. Id be very focused on the US if i were you, do USMLES asap. Much much shorter qualification time and faster income to pay off loans.

jenga-jen

Scientist1: you'll see a lot of these fine examples of the 'informative' posts in this thread relating to prospective medical students.

While I have nothing but respect and appreciation for any kind of balanced information both pro and con in relation to studying medicine, I've abandoned this thread in recent months due to, imo, the inordinate amount of scare mongering it contains.

I have to add to what pewpew12 said and while advising you to take everything with a grain of salt, would also add that all of these people could have dropped out and lessened their debt or moved into other careers (especially if they were reasonably debt free due to the free fees) but chose to remain in their chosen careers. There has to be a reason for this beyond a fear/unwillingness to move.

I have literally just let the ink dry on my €100k** loan for graduate medicine and, at 26, will be 31 by the time I've completed my intern year. You need to look at the 100k as an investment for all of the years between your current age and when you retire. When you divide that out it suddenly doesn't seem like so much does it?

I've met people on my course with mortgages, babies, partners. If they can manage then so can we.

I've also met so many students currently in the latter years of the course who just can't say enough about how much they're enjoying the course itself.

Most people in any profession who've been through rigorous training (e.g, law, accountancy, pilots) would have the whole 'are you mad?' response if you said you were following in their footsteps. Purely because they wouldn't want to have to do it again. However, ask most of them if they'd go back and do something else if they could.... the answer's generally 'no'.

And NOBODY knows what state the healthcare system/job market will be in in 5 years time. I'd rather do something I love now rather than wonder 'what if?' when I'm 70. Wouldn't you?

** which it might help you to know, is stepped over the 4 years and you only draw down cash as you need it so that you only pay the interest on what you've taken so far. Also the APR is 3.13% with AIB this year so it's very different to your regular student loans.

tallaght01

It's all very well being not even in 1st year and saying these types of posts are "informative" in the way that was intended.

Med school is great. Final students will always say it's great. Being an intern is easy, it's just long hours.

I'd go back to med school in a heartbeat. Loved it.

I wouldn't touch medicine again, though, except for the existence of public health. I'd do a finance related degree, like economics I reckon, or possibly politics.

I'd hate to be trying to compete for training programmes in my 30s. I'd doubly hate to be doing lots of night shifts aswell into my forties. I think that would actually be the worst of it.

I know the nights and long weekend shifts became a LOT harder once I hit 30. They were tough enough in my 20s. But I don't do them now, and I'm not sure I'd cope all that well with them now.

I'm working in oz now, in fairness, but I doubt the money is much different, and have only just paid off my student loan, which was less money than one year of GEM, and I still don't have much money left at the end of the month. I'm 33 years old.

I have always thought that GEM was a total moneyspinner, and there has been no thought about the implications of churning out older grads, with very few training posts, and even less consultant posts.

I predict a huge amount of people trying to get into GP/public health/rehab etc in the next few years, which are all oversubscribed now as it is.

p_holmz

tallaght01 wrote: »

....I'd do a finance related degree, like economics I reckon, or possibly politics.

I'd hate to be trying to compete for training programmes in my 30s....

As a previous poster noted, it is hard to find that "rosy" career at the moment. I have a quantitative finance degree and I can safely tell you all finance related training posts and (the very few) job roles out there at the moment are super extremely competitive. Even with the best qualifications you are up against hundreds of people with decades of experience. (Before the economic crisis you would have only been up against 30- 40 people with equally good CVs)

Heck I was rejected from a Masters course (finance) this year because my degree was not quantitative enough and 7 years work experience was not "long enough" compared to other candidates. :eek:

Trust me no career is easy. Ppl tend to quote the best lawyers and most successful CEOs (who by the way have spent thousands on MBAs and Actuary exams). Think when comparing careers it is best to take a fair selection of people and then average out thier accomplishments....

tallaght01

p_holmz wrote: »

As a previous poster noted, it is hard to find that "rosy" career at the moment. I have a quantitative finance degree and I can safely tell you all finance related training posts and (the very few) job roles out there at the moment are super extremely competitive. Even with the best qualifications you are up against hundreds of people with decades of experience. (Before the economic crisis you would have only been up against 30- 40 people with equally good CVs)

Heck I was rejected from a Masters course (finance) this year because my degree was not quantitative enough and 7 years work experience was not "long enough" compared to other candidates. :eek:

Trust me no career is easy. Ppl tend to quote the best lawyers and most successful CEOs (who by the way have spent thousands on MBAs and Actuary exams). Think when comparing careers it is best to take a fair selection of people and then average out thier accomplishments....

I've zero interest in a career in finance. I'm doing public health, and as of next year, my career will be in international health.

But I think I might be more use to developing countries as someone who can address the more important determinants of health, such as economic and political issues.

Maybe no career is easy (though I disagree) but there are a lot of easier ways to earn money than being an NCHD.

But I would be a REALLY crap accountant!

jenga-jen

Tallaght01, I think I'm in the perfect position going into medicine to comment on whether these posts are 'informative' given that I had subscribed to/followed this thread for over a year now for the exact purpose of gathering information. I'm not the only one who has commented on the horror stories/scare mongering that has gone on in this thread. IMO if every career had a thread like this on boards then a lot of people would be put off something they might love or be very good at.

I'm in the opposite situation, as many GEM entrants are, of having a Software Engineering degree which led me into a financial sector job for a number of years in which I was expected to train as an accountant, at night, while working a 70hr week. This is not unusual nor does it slow down when you're 30+ since I would be in at 07:30 and leaving at 21:45 to make the last bus 10 months of the year and at that point management would still be on the floor. That's a full college workload in your 'free evenings' and weekends.

I'm not basing my opinion on those of current students either. I know that they haven't yet experienced what being a doctor truly entails.

I have no doubt that paying off the loan will be difficult, I haven't entered into this with blinkers on. The bank has said that it will be structuring repayments based on circumstances and will review the loan due to circumstances along the way after graduation. We'll just have to see what happens when this years graduates go out into the big bad world and the loans are structured for them.

It's a model that has worked (or at least been standard) and had survivors, in the US for a number of years in terms of the level of fees/debt.

And I do take your point about older grads and fewer positions. The question is, were you tired because you'd been doing night shifts etc since your 20s and had become worn out/lost the initial 'out of college' drive OR was it a loss of stamina due to age?

The other question is: if you have a 23yo and a 33yo with equal grades and an equal performance on the job in hospital after a number of years experience and you want to promote someone: do you take the person who has only had any 'real life' experience in the last couple of years or someone who's had a lot more and chosen to go back. I know from my experience in hospitals lately that I'd rather an older graduate with some empathy based on life experience than a fresh faced graduate who's life experience consists of college and being thrust straight into a hospital.

This is an opinion I had held for a number of years even when I didn't realise that graduate medicine was an option. I think 21/22 is very young/inexperienced to be working in this field, regardless of training.

And that's my final point, GEM applicants don't have the luxury (as we will see it no doubt!) of having obtained a medical degree at a young age, for whatever reason. For many it's a lifelong dream or passion that got waylaid along the way. It's my sincere hope that it'll be this drive, the same that sees them excelling in their coursework, that will help them through their training both in college and afterwards and this will hopefully take the sting out of having this loan hanging over them.

tallaght01

jenga-jen wrote: »

Tallaght01, I think I'm in the perfect position going into medicine to comment on whether these posts are 'informative' given that I had subscribed to/followed this thread for over a year now for the exact purpose of gathering information. I'm not the only one who has commented on the horror stories/scare mongering that has gone on in this thread. IMO if every career had a thread like this on boards then a lot of people would be put off something they might love or be very good at.

I'm in the opposite situation, as many GEM entrants are, of having a Software Engineering degree which led me into a financial sector job for a number of years in which I was expected to train as an accountant, at night, while working a 70hr week. This is not unusual nor does it slow down when you're 30+ since I would be in at 07:30 and leaving at 21:45 to make the last bus 10 months of the year and at that point management would still be on the floor. That's a full college workload in your 'free evenings' and weekends.

I'm not basing my opinion on those of current students either. I know that they haven't yet experienced what being a doctor truly entails.

I have no doubt that paying off the loan will be difficult, I haven't entered into this with blinkers on. The bank has said that it will be structuring repayments based on circumstances and will review the loan due to circumstances along the way after graduation. We'll just have to see what happens when this years graduates go out into the big bad world and the loans are structured for them.

It's a model that has worked (or at least been standard) and had survivors, in the US for a number of years in terms of the level of fees/debt.

And I do take your point about older grads and fewer positions. The question is, were you tired because you'd been doing night shifts etc since your 20s and had become worn out/lost the initial 'out of college' drive OR was it a loss of stamina due to age?

The other question is: if you have a 23yo and a 33yo with equal grades and an equal performance on the job in hospital after a number of years experience and you want to promote someone: do you take the person who has only had any 'real life' experience in the last couple of years or someone who's had a lot more and chosen to go back. I know from my experience in hospitals lately that I'd rather an older graduate with some empathy based on life experience than a fresh faced graduate who's life experience consists of college and being thrust straight into a hospital.

This is an opinion I had held for a number of years even when I didn't realise that graduate medicine was an option. I think 21/22 is very young/inexperienced to be working in this field, regardless of training.

And that's my final point, GEM applicants don't have the luxury (as we will see it no doubt!) of having obtained a medical degree at a young age, for whatever reason. For many it's a lifelong dream or passion that got waylaid along the way. It's my sincere hope that it'll be this drive, the same that sees them excelling in their coursework, that will help them through their training both in college and afterwards and this will hopefully take the sting out of having this loan hanging over them.

You're imagining these suer empathetic old people all over the hospital. But that's not what happens. In my experience, older entrants are more tired on nights etc, and are much less pleasant. In fact there was a study published recently that showed GAMSATers to have less empathy than their younger peers. It's a difference that's always been very obvious to me, but that's just an opinion.

"Real world" life experience in't the preserve of those who have 2 degrees either. I have mates from med school who entered from school who have more life experience than I ever will. Makes feck all difference, in reality.

I think by dismissing people's lived opinions in this thread, you're showing the worst characteristic of older entrants to med school...over confidence.

Working til 10pm at night is all very well. But very little compares to the horrors of being on-call at 5am (having been there since the previous morning), and having a kid with diabetic ketoacidosis being rushed in, while a premature baby is just popping out, knowing you're all alone, and you're due in clinic at 9am. The worst I ever did was tying to do that 1 in 3 days. It's soul destroying. I have friends still doing it, and they're wrecks. Just being in your 30s is way to old to be doing that stuff.

I did security for years before med school, and did nights all the time, and it was grand. First few years post grad were fine too.

Luckily I know do paeds A+E shifts when I feel like it.

You may well cope. You may cope better than anyone. But you should be aware of how exhausting it can be, physically and mentally, even for the youngsters.

jenga-jen

tallaght01 wrote: »

You're imagining these suer empathetic old people all over the hospital. But that's not what happens. In my experience, older entrants are more tired on nights etc, and are much less pleasant. In fact there was a study published recently that showed GAMSATers to have less empathy than their younger peers. It's a difference that's always been very obvious to me, but that's just an opinion.

"Real world" life experience in't the preserve of those who have 2 degrees either. I have mates from med school who entered from school who have more life experience than I ever will. Makes feck all difference, in reality.

I think by dismissing people's lived opinions in this thread, you're showing the worst characteristic of older entrants to med school...over confidence.

Working til 10pm at night is all very well. But very little compares to the horrors of being on-call at 5am (having been there since the previous morning), and having a kid with diabetic ketoacidosis being rushed in, while a premature baby is just popping out, knowing you're all alone, and you're due in clinic at 9am. The worst I ever did was tying to do that 1 in 3 days. It's soul destroying. I have friends still doing it, and they're wrecks. Just being in your 30s is way to old to be doing that stuff.

I did security for years before med school, and did nights all the time, and it was grand. First few years post grad were fine too.

Luckily I know do paeds A+E shifts when I feel like it.

You may well cope. You may cope better than anyone. But you should be aware of how exhausting it can be, physically and mentally, even for the youngsters.

I don't know whether to laugh or thank you for calling me over-confident!! One look at my 'deer in headlight' eyes at the minute would dispel that one instantly

I've repeatedly said that I respect and appreciate people's opinions here. I am in no way dismissing them, merely attempting to highlight the large proportion of what could be perceived as scare mongering. Which ime tends to gather pace as people try to out-do each other with horror stories.

Nor was I trying to imply that only GEMs would have life experience. On the whole however, I would imagine that the average level of experience is higher in people going back at ~25 than those starting out at ~18 and in some cases as young as 16.

My posts are not intended to refute any of what has been said here, merely to highlight that this thread was started in order to inform potential students of some of the cons of training/working as a doctor.

Just as it would be unfair of me to ignore the advice shared here, similarly it's unfair of posters to pour scorn/derision on the potential GEM students. This is in no way aimed at you Tallaght01 btw but at, a minority, of other posters.

We come here to see what life as a doctor would be like, good and bad, not to be told how horrible our lives as a whole (including home life, mortgage, partner and children) will be. We've entered into this largely, I would hope, with the knowledge of the commitment we've undertaken and the strain that it will put on us in a financial and personal capacity.

When I come to a thread to hear about the pros and cons of being a doctor, I don't expect my future lifestyle as a whole and apparently inevitable discontent/unhappiness to be mapped out for me. I want someone to tell me about the job, good AND bad; to tell me how hard it is; and, even tell me how much harder older grads find it.

I jst don't expect to be told, no matter how sweetly it's worded, that I'm making the biggest mistake of my life and that I've ruined my personal/professional prospects in one fell swoop. Especially not when it's dressed up as advice.

tallaght01

My feelings about GAMSAT aside, I don't give a mickey who does medicine.

But it's gotta be a horrible life for older people doing it. I don't know how anyone still does nights and on-call in their 30s and 40s!The oldest guy in my class was 33 on graduation. He was a genius who'd worked with NASA. Got bored with being a rocket scientist and decided to become a brain surgeon.

He's one of my best mates in the world, and he's now hitting 40 and is an ICU reg. He's only recently had time to get married, and he has no kids, and probably won't. I phone him regularly, as he's one of my best mates and he's always always exhausted. His wife was getting so frustrated at his working life that it almost ended their marriage as quick as it had begun. Now she's become pretty unwell, and he's working nights and weekends constantly and can't look after her.

Luckily he's a genius, so he got on a training programme straight away. He's the best doc I know, but he's a walking zombie, has a tough home life and there's no consultant jobs when he gets his ticket.

He is one of the most lovely people in the world, and was always the popular guy at med school. But he's a grumpy bastard in work.Same with me. I'd hope the people on this forum who know me in real life would tell you I'm a pretty happy-go-lucky guy. But I can be a real tosser in work. And it's all down to exhaustion. It's got balls all to do with life experience.

I'm in a lovely specialty, and even at that I feel sorry for my bird :P

So it does affect you lifestyle. It's different in America where they run up huge debts, but consultant training is uch shorter, and you earn great money once you're there.

In Ireland, once you reach consultant level there are unlikely to be no consultant jobs, so you still send years as a reg.

Thankfully I have no desire to work for the HSE. so none of this will affect me, and my views won't affect any of you guy

ThatDrGuy

I'm not trying to scare people off or preach doom and gloom. Conditions in medicine in Ireland have gone so far downhill in the last 3 years that they have driven me out. Simply put a hospital medical career in this country is not congruent with life. Im 26 and I know that. Im out and off to NZ. So is practically everyone else I know. Thats fine we can do so. We are relatively young and now fairly debt free. We can start over. I'd hate to think of you guys down the road - trapped in the HSE. Too much debt and life baggage to be able to move on. Being exploited all the time. I mean medicine can be a great job - my electives have shown me this. I hope NZ is everything people say it is. Its just horrible everywhere I have worked in Ireland. If I didnt have the safety valve of being able to move on I would have gone crazy by now. Im sick and tired of being sick and tired to borrow a phrase. Like Tallaght said - medschool is easy, great fun. Intern year too. After that - la deluge. As for training schemes, not only do they not give a damn about life experience, they actively penalise it. I know so many burnt out people terrified to take a year off because it looks badly on their cv. They are not looking for people with lives, they are looking for lifeless uber nerd drones that will work for free and never go home. As for investment - its more of a gamble than investment. Gambling that the HSE will change, that the Irish system will be nicer,better payed, family friendly and roomy at the top. Those Im afraid are long odds.

tallaght01

You're gonna LOVE New Zealand. I worked there before I went to Oz. Best working conditions I've had. Less money than Ireland or the UK, but a great standard of living. Consultants come in a lot, too. So, if you're floundering, you'll be expected to call your boss in from home.

I know consultants who come in to do LPs on babies etc.

I miss New Zealand. Only reason I left was because I had an Oz job lined up before I went to NZ.

Scientist1

I really don't think that we will be completely past it and over the hill when we do qualify - your perspective of "relatively young" will change as you get older!!!
No reason why I can't save up the fees, head back to college, train as a doc and head abroad in my 30's...
And in contrast to Undergrad Meds, we all have a back-up. If everything falls through, I still have a Science degree, Masters and 4 years industry experience.
I'm sure ye are right and that the medical career is hell in Ireland but what you don't seem to get is that a lot of careers at the moment are hell in this country - or worse - non-existent!!!

tallaght01

Scientist1 wrote: »

I really don't think that we will be completely past it and over the hill when we do qualify - your perspective of "relatively young" will change as you get older!!!
No reason why I can't save up the fees, head back to college, train as a doc and head abroad in my 30's...
And in contrast to Undergrad Meds, we all have a back-up. If everything falls through, I still have a Science degree, Masters and 4 years industry experience.
I'm sure ye are right and that the medical career is hell in Ireland but what you don't seem to get is that a lot of careers at the moment are hell in this country - or worse - non-existent!!!

That's a fair enough point of you want to train as a GP abroad. I don't know what age you'll be when you qualify. But if you want to be a surgeon in Oz or NZ, you're still gonna be doing a LOT of nights and weekends on-call for at least 10 years post grad.

Plus if you're a consultant over here you wouldn't believe the stuff you're expected to come in for at night, and work the next day.

But I reckon the states might be a good option. Relatively short residencies, and then you're a consultant of sorts. I don't like the model of care in the states, as it's a very inequitable system. But if you're looking to get training over and done with quickly it may be the way to go.

To be honest I think the govt will love the idea of taking 100k in fees off you, and then not having to make a consultant job for you.

Scientist1

Is it the same story in Psychiatry?

tallaght01

Scientist1 wrote: »

Is it the same story in Psychiatry?

Sam34, the moderator of this forum would be able to tell you.

I think she told me before that their aren't many consultant job, but I couldn't swear on that.

I found psych tough as a med student I have to say. I liked it, but it's really complex. Sam34 is a smart cookie though, and is a psych SpR and very knowledgeable about these things.

Very rewarding job if you're good at it, I'd imagine.

he man rugger

This thread is one hell of an eye opener! Think I'll still give the GAMSAT a bash in March but medicine really doesn't sound like an overly appealing career in terms of the quality of life it gives you.

sam34

Scientist1 wrote: »

Is it the same story in Psychiatry?

tallaght01 wrote: »

Sam34, the moderator of this forum would be able to tell you.

I think she told me before that their aren't many consultant job, but I couldn't swear on that.

I found psych tough as a med student I have to say. I liked it, but it's really complex. Sam34 is a smart cookie though, and is a psych SpR and very knowledgeable about these things.

Very rewarding job if you're good at it, I'd imagine.

thanks for the praise

psych is considered by those outside of it to be one of the softer specialties

in some ways, it is - the hours are generally 9 to 5,on-call not included, rather than teh 10- 12 hour days of surgery etc

but you still do on-call, anything form 1 in 3 to 1 in 14, depending on where you're working.

on-call can be busy. you wont see the same amount of people as the medics/surgeons will see on call, but the ones you see will take waaaay longer to sort out.

beds are another issue - if a medic wants to admit someone and there isnt a bed, the patient waits on a trolley.

psych patients arent given this 'luxury' in many hospitals (mix of politics and policy) and thus if you have someone you want to admit you may actually have to send them home and put them on a waiting list. its utter crap.

in terms of consultant jobs, its tough at the moment. there have been 2 advertised this year. 2. there are about 65 people on the SpR scheme. you do the maths.

theres way more i could say about the job, but am wrecked tired at the moment... if you have any specific questions , ask away

final word- if i knew then what i know now, i'd still do it all again

lctake2

I find this whole thread really confusing. I know lots of people doing med in college, in various years and the all love it. Yes being an intern sucks but it's not forever. My dad is a GP, he works 9-6 weekdays and then a couple of nights every 2nd or 3rd week. He has no horrible boss, his entire focus is on helping patients. I know GP trainees and they aren't having a tough time. It really isn't that bad, if you don't want crazy hours be a GP, a private clinicpsychiatrist or a dermatologist

lctake2

and the odds of getting a place on the GP scheme aren't that horrible. 2/3 applicants per place where I'm from

ThatDrGuy

Medicine in college has nothing to do with real world medicine. Med Students stoll in and out every now and again largely oblivious to the demands of the job. Intern year is by far and away your best year. Short hours (these days) no responsibility and your life hasnt fallen appart yet. The problem is SHO and Reg years. GP or not - there is no escaping being an SHO for 2 years. I wont reiterate the horrors, they are well documented already. I know so many people who wish they were on GP schemes. Do the math, med student numbers up by over 150, GP scheme numbers up by 6. Numbers wanting to leave hospital medicine up by several thousand. Its not so much the hours at the end of the day that got me. It was the abuse, the lack of training, the medical administration, the hypocrisy and feeling trapped in it. Then getting a check of 2,200 euro a month at the end of it (less than minimum wage per hour). Followed closely by a bill of 550 from medical council, 450 royal college, 570 IMO etc etc. Long story short, one of the ****est months of my life I ended up being poorer by a good 400 euro or so. Then they wonder why NCHDs are leaving in droves.

mcdermla

I wanted to be a doctor for years, still do, but I've decided against GAMSAT or any other route to medicine. I'm studying nursing and actually really enjoying it, so the plan now is to do a Masters in Palliative Care and be a CNS instead. Good hours, good wage, honorable job. If I did GAMSAT I'd only wind up being in a lot of debt and that might not be a big issue to some people but it is to me. I want to be able to have a mortgage in a few years' time, not a 100K student loan. I know some people will say I never really wanted medicine but I don't care, because quality of life is important too. I do still envy the interns when I see them on their rounds, but there's no guarantee I'd enjoy that life anyway.

take everything

http://www.medicalindependent.ie/page.aspx?title=something_touched_me_deep_inside

Medical independent article i came accross.

Not exactly poetry but just thought it was apt.

mardybumbum

take everything wrote: »

http://www.medicalindependent.ie/page.aspx?title=something_touched_me_deep_inside

Medical independent article i came accross.

Not exactly poetry but just thought it was apt.

That man is a top class tutor.

RacoonQueen

I've always wanted to do medicine, now strongly considering going back to study it over the next few years. I already work in a hospital so know first hand just how woeful some aspects of our health system is, so it's really put me off medicine.

It's frustrating enough in my line off work in allied health, not sure if I can handle being a doctor in an Irish hospital with the distinct lack of resources. Is it really as bad as I think it is?

Blatter

This thread should be stickied

take everything

ThatDrGuy wrote: »

Medicine in college has nothing to do with real world medicine. Med Students stoll in and out every now and again largely oblivious to the demands of the job.

Without adding to the doom and gloom just wanna say i really agree with this.
Med student: take a couple of histories and go home, usually pretty disorganised (i knew a guy who didn't even turn up for some of his rotations in the early years).
No introduction to the practical stuff, workings of the hospital etc.

Intern/SHO: suddenly manage potentially 10-15 admissions (with a bit of help from a reg) .

Maybe others here would disagree with this but surely a more gradual transition from student to work is better.

briankirby

tallaght01 wrote: »

It's all very well being not even in 1st year and saying these types of posts are "informative" in the way that was intended.

Med school is great. Final students will always say it's great. Being an intern is easy, it's just long hours.

I'd go back to med school in a heartbeat. Loved it.

I wouldn't touch medicine again, though, except for the existence of public health. I'd do a finance related degree, like economics I reckon, or possibly politics.

I'd hate to be trying to compete for training programmes in my 30s. I'd doubly hate to be doing lots of night shifts aswell into my forties. I think that would actually be the worst of it.

I know the nights and long weekend shifts became a LOT harder once I hit 30. They were tough enough in my 20s. But I don't do them now, and I'm not sure I'd cope all that well with them now.

I'm working in oz now, in fairness, but I doubt the money is much different, and have only just paid off my student loan, which was less money than one year of GEM, and I still don't have much money left at the end of the month. I'm 33 years old.

I have always thought that GEM was a total moneyspinner, and there has been no thought about the implications of churning out older grads, with very few training posts, and even less consultant posts.

I predict a huge amount of people trying to get into GP/public health/rehab etc in the next few years, which are all oversubscribed now as it is.

Just a question tallaght.Why is it that the average age graduating from med school in USA/Canada is around 28/29?Surely,they would have changed this if being over 30 has such a detrimental effect on performance??just curious

tallaght01

briankirby wrote: »

Just a question tallaght.Why is it that the average age graduating from med school in USA/Canada is around 28/29?Surely,they would have changed this if being over 30 has such a detrimental effect on performance??just curious

I'm not sure why the average american grad would be 28 or 29, as they only do a 4 year course after their bachelors. But they spend a lot less time gaining attending status, so they have much fewer years, by and large, of doing long hours than Irish grads. Plus they're limited to an 80 hour week.

lonestargirl

briankirby wrote: »

Just a question tallaght.Why is it that the average age graduating from med school in USA/Canada is around 28/29?Surely,they would have changed this if being over 30 has such a detrimental effect on performance??just curious

From those US grads I know 26/27 is a more common age to be graduating. US residencies are generally only 3-5 years long so the nights are much more doable when you can see the end of the line.

briankirby

lonestargirl wrote: »

From those US grads I know 26/27 is a more common age to be graduating. US residencies are generally only 3-5 years long so the nights are much more doable when you can see the end of the line.

Ya id say the 35 year olds in a class would bring up the average age a bit but thats the age my american friends who are doing medicine gave me aswell.
How can they get as much experience in that short time as say an irish grad who does many more years?

opinion guy

briankirby wrote: »

Ya id say the 35 year olds in a class would bring up the average age a bit but thats the age my american friends who are doing medicine gave me aswell.
How can they get as much experience in that short time as say an irish grad who does many more years?

Because most of what an Irish grad does it gopher work. In the US they have other people do that. Also in Ireland training is haphazard, and depends on the whim of consutlants - in the US it is strictly scheduled. Finally in the US there use a model of assuming graduated responsiblity allowing supervised decision based learning to happen. In Ireland increasingly junior doctor roles are restricted to 'doing jobs' whilst decision making is increasingly being taken at a consultant level - in essence juniors are largely becoming information peddlers for the seniors with decreasing understanding of why they are doing what they are doing. This is the net-effect of being more busy and 'doing jobs' to get things done with no time for explanations.

sparagon

So what is the quality of life and pay like in the US?

lonestargirl

sparagon wrote: »

So what is the quality of life and pay like in the US?

Resident: limit of 80 hrs per week, 2-3 weeks holidays per year, $42k-50K.

Attending: work 50-80 hrs per week, better holidays, $150-400k per year.