Before considering medicine as a career READ THIS!

dissed doc

One of the reasons that people get to Consultant/Attending level (basically post-specialisation level) in their 30's in the US is that productivity of specialists is at it;s highest during your 30s - it's when people with high qualifications work hard, probably don't have kids in schools yet and other distractions. This reduces when you are in your 40s, other responsibilities and the enthusiasm drops for working 60hrs+ and pushing out research.

In Ireland, people spend their most productive years abroad and return in late 30s/early 40s if at all.

imported_guy

lonestargirl wrote: »

Resident: limit of 80 hrs per week, 2-3 weeks holidays per year, $42k-50K.

Attending: work 50-80 hrs per week, better holidays, $150-400k per year.

some residencies can pay upto 57-60k depending on cost of living where you go

you can find details here for some of them https://freida.ama-assn.org/Freida/user/viewProgramSearch.do

150-400k is pretty arbitrary, some specialities are pretty lucrative and can earn in like millions (interventional cardiology, GI, plastics, anesthesia/pain management, dermatology.... ofcourse in a good group practice setting that is), and some like FP or paediatrics are pretty crappy even less than 150k in places depending on where/how much you work.

Laydee

I applied for radiography last year & didn't get it, however while on my work experience placement I was shadowing a few radiologists as the radiography students were shadowing the radiographers. I loved it & it has made me think that now I want to do GEM & go into radiology. This thread is a real eye opener though. I am in my first year of nursing now & think that maybe radiology nursing might be another option. My heart is set on radiology at the moment but quality of life would be a huge factor for me, I have a family to think about.

kate.m

I'm doing my leaving cert this year and was set on medicine. I have been since work experience in a hospital, hospice and lab(with a MD)
I don't know if this has put me off the course or not.

Work experience and an interest in LC biology is the only reason I want to do medicine...6th yrs are not going to have a clue what they are signing themselves up for when they pick a course/career.

Is it honestly that bad?! I feel as if I will be in way over my head after reading about some of your descriptions.

ANY advice would be appreciated.

jmn89

kate.m wrote: »

I'm doing my leaving cert this year and was set on medicine. I have been since work experience in a hospital, hospice and lab(with a MD)
I don't know if this has put me off the course or not.

Work experience and an interest in LC biology is the only reason I want to do medicine...6th yrs are not going to have a clue what they are signing themselves up for when they pick a course/career.

Is it honestly that bad?! I feel as if I will be in way over my head after reading about some of your descriptions.

ANY advice would be appreciated.

Hang in there Kate! It's a pretty upsetting thread to read if you don't take it with a pinch of salt!!

I'm in final med in TCD at the minute (finishing up in April - can't wait). Med in TCD is a 5 year course for all now (no option of pre-med, I'm sure you know already), so most of my friends in other courses finished last year and are jobless (many on the verge of indefinite emigration) and largely directionless and the lucky few are in postgrad or working in jobs for which they're grossly overqualified.

I'm sure that the negatives don't need any more attention and they certainly shouldn't be ignored - long hours obviously, many interns and junior doctors literally not being paid a cent for unrostered overtime despite doing 10-20 hours extra per week, the trend towards litigation in times of economic downturn, the occasional difficult colleage or frequent difficult situations...

However, there are so many positives from where I'm standing:
1) The HSE gave our class a talk this week on how they're actually planning to open up some restricted specialties to interns when we're applying for jobs next year and are planning to INCREASE rather than decrease the number of intern jobs. There will be roughly 520 intern jobs available next year for 430 EU graduates from Irish universities (jobs offered preferentially to EU citizens and the remnants are filled by applicants who require work permits, i.e. non-EU). Therefore, I'm actually guaranteed a job next year.
2) There's literally a specialty to suit every type of person. People in my class are planning to work in and have every possibility of successfully specialising in anything from GP to psychiatry to A&E to pathology to surgery to public health... as much or as little patient contact as you like, as much or as little gore/intellectualising as you like...
3) It remains a respectable and respected professional career with great prospects for working abroad, research, postgrad studies, has a natural advancement process.

Not to mention all the positives of studying medicine in uni - getting to know a fantastic bunch of people quite intimately (it's a course that's so heavy on hours and you're so frequently paired with random other students not of your choosing that the comeraderly is very real, through shared experiences both difficult and amazing).

I'm aware of the negatives, possibly more than a little naive but certainly more than a little determined that I won't be defeated by them. A mantra of mine is that anybody can do anything if they're good enough...

Good luck Kate, with whatever you choose to do!

Chuchoter

kate.m wrote: »

I'm doing my leaving cert this year and was set on medicine. I have been since work experience in a hospital, hospice and lab(with a MD)
I don't know if this has put me off the course or not.

Work experience and an interest in LC biology is the only reason I want to do medicine...6th yrs are not going to have a clue what they are signing themselves up for when they pick a course/career.

Is it honestly that bad?! I feel as if I will be in way over my head after reading about some of your descriptions.

ANY advice would be appreciated.

I agree, I read this thread and it is so, unbelievably depressing I'm in 5th year.

opinion guy

jmn89 wrote: »

1) The HSE gave our class a talk this week on how they're actually planning to open up some restricted specialties to interns when we're applying for jobs next year and are planning to INCREASE rather than decrease the number of intern jobs. There will be roughly 520 intern jobs available next year for 430 EU graduates from Irish universities (jobs offered preferentially to EU citizens and the remnants are filled by applicants who require work permits, i.e. non-EU). Therefore, I'm actually guaranteed a job next year.

Interesting. First I heard of this - they must be keeping this one on the down-low. Sorry to bring you guys down again, but don't you see this for what it is ? They can't fill SHO posts cause people are leaving/locuming. So instead they are increasing numbers of interns to fill the gap (having decreased them in the last few years). Because interns are the one group who are a truly captive market and can't easily leave. Its actually rather deviously clever on their part. Instead of reforming working conditions for the SHO's and Reg's just hire a bunch more interns who are a lot cheaper. Its the cheapest short term solution numbers-wise. Its NOT a solution service wise

I shudder to think what this means for a) you guys who will doubtless be thrown into situations you are not prepared for and b) the patients who will have inexperienced interns in place of more experienced shos's and reg's c) the implications for training and the future of the health service

Prime Mover

opinion guy wrote: »

Interesting. First I heard of this - they must be keeping this one on the down-low. Sorry to bring you guys down again, but don't you see this for what it is ? They can't fill SHO posts cause people are leaving/locuming. So instead they are increasing numbers of interns to fill the gap (having decreased them in the last few years). Because interns are the one group who are a truly captive market and can't easily leave. Its actually rather deviously clever on their part. Instead of reforming working conditions for the SHO's and Reg's just hire a bunch more interns who are a lot cheaper. Its the cheapest short term solution numbers-wise. Its NOT a solution service wise

I shudder to think what this means for a) you guys who will doubtless be thrown into situations you are not prepared for and b) the patients who will have inexperienced interns in place of more experienced shos's and reg's c) the implications for training and the future of the health service

I think you might be reading a bit too much into that. The number of interns will have to increase to match the recent increase in medical graduates from the traditional and GEM courses. You have to complete the intern year to be fully registered with the Medical council so if these extra intern places weren't created there would be murder.

opinion guy

Prime Mover wrote: »

I think you might be reading a bit too much into that. The number of interns will have to increase to match the recent increase in medical graduates from the traditional and GEM courses. You have to complete the intern year to be fully registered with the Medical council so if these extra intern places weren't created there would be murder.

Two birds....one stone....

Prime Mover

opinion guy wrote: »

Two birds....one stone....

This is not something they thought up recently. It is part of the Fottrell report from years ago. By assuming this is "rather deviously clever" you are giving them far too much credit.

It actually highlights how incredibly fcuking stupid they are to negotiate a consultant contract that takes NCHD posts out of the system when there is an increased cohort of medical students coming down the tracks.

kate.m

jmn89 wrote: »

Hang in there Kate! It's a pretty upsetting thread to read if you don't take it with a pinch of salt!!

I'm in final med in TCD at the minute (finishing up in April - can't wait). Med in TCD is a 5 year course for all now (no option of pre-med, I'm sure you know already), so most of my friends in other courses finished last year and are jobless (many on the verge of indefinite emigration) and largely directionless and the lucky few are in postgrad or working in jobs for which they're grossly overqualified.

I'm sure that the negatives don't need any more attention and they certainly shouldn't be ignored - long hours obviously, many interns and junior doctors literally not being paid a cent for unrostered overtime despite doing 10-20 hours extra per week, the trend towards litigation in times of economic downturn, the occasional difficult colleage or frequent difficult situations...

However, there are so many positives from where I'm standing:
1) The HSE gave our class a talk this week on how they're actually planning to open up some restricted specialties to interns when we're applying for jobs next year and are planning to INCREASE rather than decrease the number of intern jobs. There will be roughly 520 intern jobs available next year for 430 EU graduates from Irish universities (jobs offered preferentially to EU citizens and the remnants are filled by applicants who require work permits, i.e. non-EU). Therefore, I'm actually guaranteed a job next year.
2) There's literally a specialty to suit every type of person. People in my class are planning to work in and have every possibility of successfully specialising in anything from GP to psychiatry to A&E to pathology to surgery to public health... as much or as little patient contact as you like, as much or as little gore/intellectualising as you like...
3) It remains a respectable and respected professional career with great prospects for working abroad, research, postgrad studies, has a natural advancement process.

Not to mention all the positives of studying medicine in uni - getting to know a fantastic bunch of people quite intimately (it's a course that's so heavy on hours and you're so frequently paired with random other students not of your choosing that the comeraderly is very real, through shared experiences both difficult and amazing).

I'm aware of the negatives, possibly more than a little naive but certainly more than a little determined that I won't be defeated by them. A mantra of mine is that anybody can do anything if they're good enough...

Good luck Kate, with whatever you choose to do!

Thanks so much. A more positive opinion is highly appreciated
.
Whats med. like in Trinity?? I heard that the exams are all at the end of the year and that in general its approached differently compared to UCD,UCC and NUIG.
I don't know how correct my sources are or anything, I'm just curious.

Also would you say that higher level maths is necessary for med.? I have chemistry and biology and like them both, but I heard on work exp. that physics/math is involved during the 1st yr. I know its not a requirement for the CAO. I was just wondering if I would be out of my league....

You have made me way more optimistic about the course. Thanks!

A Neurotic

kate.m wrote: »

Thanks so much. A more positive opinion is highly appreciated
.
Whats med. like in Trinity?? I heard that the exams are all at the end of the year and that in general its approached differently compared to UCD,UCC and NUIG.
I don't know how correct my sources are or anything, I'm just curious.

Also would you say that higher level maths is necessary for med.? I have chemistry and biology and like them both, but I heard on work exp. that physics/math is involved during the 1st yr. I know its not a requirement for the CAO. I was just wondering if I would be out of my league....

You have made me way more optimistic about the course. Thanks!

[2nd year in TCD here]

Our exams (for first and second year anyway) are at the end of each semester, ie one set before Christmas and another in May.

HL Maths is not in any way essential

kate.m

A Neurotic wrote: »

[2nd year in TCD here]

Our exams (for first and second year anyway) are at the end of each semester, ie one set before Christmas and another in May.

HL Maths is not in any way essential

Thanks so much!, thats great news
At least now I can consider dropping it...

WhosUpDocs

kate.m wrote: »

Thanks so much!, thats great news
At least now I can consider dropping it...

Consider keeping it on this year though! Aren't they bringing in that 25 extra points thing? So even if you scrape a pass in it you'll be getting 70 points. More than an A1 in pass.

Blatter

WhosUpDocs wrote: »

Consider keeping it on this year though! Aren't they bringing in that 25 extra points thing? So even if you scrape a pass in it you'll be getting 70 points. More than an A1 in pass.

That's coming into play for LC 2012 afaik.

kate.m

WhosUpDocs wrote: »

Consider keeping it on this year though! Aren't they bringing in that 25 extra points thing? So even if you scrape a pass in it you'll be getting 70 points. More than an A1 in pass.

Sadly, thats next year....along with the introduction of project maths...don't get me started on that....basically I'm missing out on a far easier course and bonus points....at this stage HL math is a lot of work. I get the most homework and tests in it and I hear that ordinary level is just a lot easier. I don't know yet but medicine is all about getting enough points so it might be better to focus on other subjects. But thanks!

QueenOfLeon

I get the feeling that medicine will be excluded from the bonus maths points....just my opinion since it hasn't been mentioned yet!

Chuchoter

QueenOfLeon wrote: »

I get the feeling that medicine will be excluded from the bonus maths points....just my opinion since it hasn't been mentioned yet!

No they've just adjusted the points up to max 565 I think.

QueenOfLeon

crayolastereo wrote: »

No they've just adjusted the points up to max 565 I think.

Oh really? Didn't think they had published that much about it. Not much incentive for keeping it on for med then (if you were going to drop it before) with only 5 points max...

kate.m

QueenOfLeon wrote: »

Oh really? Didn't think they had published that much about it. Not much incentive for keeping it on for med then (if you were going to drop it before) with only 5 points max...

yeah, I think most people fall down with the hpat anyway. The bonus points only cound for next year (as in 5th yrs this year) So I can only get 560 anyway...not that I will get it or anything :-)

briankirby

QueenOfLeon wrote: »

Oh really? Didn't think they had published that much about it. Not much incentive for keeping it on for med then (if you were going to drop it before) with only 5 points max...

Does this HL bonus points thing only count for people who do honour maths next year and not those who did it previous years??Hardly seems fair:o

QueenOfLeon

briankirby wrote: »

Does this HL bonus points thing only count for people who do honour maths next year and not those who did it previous years??Hardly seems fair:o

Its only coming in for more colleges now (its been in UL for a good while but theres no medicine there). It only applies to people in 5th year now, who'll be sitting the LC in 2012.

ORLY?

QueenOfLeon wrote: »

Its only coming in for more colleges now (its been in UL for a good while but theres no medicine there). It only applies to people in 5th year now, who'll be sitting the LC in 2012.

This is a bit weird, surely those who do the LC in 2011 but aren't applying till 2012 will get the bonus points added. There is no way that they could give some candidates higher points than others just because they did the leaving cert in a different year.

QueenOfLeon

ORLY? wrote: »

This is a bit weird, surely those who do the LC in 2011 but aren't applying till 2012 will get the bonus points added. There is no way that they could give some candidates higher points than others just because they did the leaving cert in a different year.

Oh no it'll apply then if people don't apply to the CAO til 2012...when they give their results to the CAO it'll be matched with the system being used that year.

briankirby

QueenOfLeon wrote: »

Oh no it'll apply then if people don't apply to the CAO til 2012...when they give their results to the CAO it'll be matched with the system being used that year.

Ok,that sounds a lot fairer.
And,how many bonus points do u get??
Like,is it 20 for an A1,15 for A2 etc??
Cheers

lctake2

You get the full 25 points no matter what grade you get as long as you pass. Can't decide whether it's fair or not that people that did their LC not knowing about this will be marked this way too. I didn't do honours maths because I knew I'd get an A more easily in another subject but would have kept it on for the points. Luckily I have no interest in applying for another course but if I did I'd be 25 points down compared to most people

briankirby

lctake2 wrote: »

You get the full 25 points no matter what grade you get as long as you pass. Can't decide whether it's fair or not that people that did their LC not knowing about this will be marked this way too. I didn't do honours maths because I knew I'd get an A more easily in another subject but would have kept it on for the points. Luckily I have no interest in applying for another course but if I did I'd be 25 points down compared to most people

So once u pass hons maths,u get 25 leaving cert points for all courses:eek:
Thats the most idiotic system iv ever heard of.What about those who get an A1 compared to a D3??

QueenOfLeon

briankirby wrote: »

So once u pass hons maths,u get 25 leaving cert points for all courses:eek:
Thats the most idiotic system iv ever heard of.What about those who get an A1 compared to a D3??

Its pretty awful, you'd understand them having to raise the points of a D3, D2 and D1 (45, 50, 55) up higher than an ordinary level A1 (60), but it should be a certain percentage of what you get above that, like what UL does.

Biologic

Might warrant a separate thread guys. That's an entire page on the LC in a thread on the disadvantages of medicine.

kellogscoffey

Posting this in the hope that some of the naysayers will get an email notification and rush to my aid :P

Basically, seeing as the HSE is a loada rubbish, would there be any advantages studying in the UK instead and growing up in the NHS, or does where you study matter at all at all at all?

jumpguy

Y'know, after medicine, if you find being a doctor ain't for you, can't you can always to to get into research? Might be worse paid, but at least you'd be happy (if you liked research).

Also, I'm convinced there's a good story for every bad story here. There's a lot of concentrated negativity in this thread, at this point, I'd be almost half-fearful of saying something positive before I'd get my head hacked off by some naysayer...

2Scoops

jumpguy wrote: »

Y'know, after medicine, if you find being a doctor ain't for you, can't you can always to to get into research?

Not exactly. It's true that some doctors do research, but for most it's a side project they do to get promoted. If you actually want to make a career out of it, you probably wouldn't succeed. A medical degree is not designed to give the holder any research skills. Why would anyone hire a medical graduate for a science position ahead of an actual scientist?

Biologic

2Scoops wrote: »

Not exactly. It's true that some doctors do research, but for most it's a side project they do to get promoted. If you actually want to make a career out of it, you probably wouldn't succeed. A medical degree is not designed to give the holder any research skills. Why would anyone hire a medical graduate for a science position ahead of an actual scientist?

I think you're placing too much value on the skills learned in a science degree. From a practical point of view, the BSc will only know some proteomics/genomics/imaging techniques that the medicine graduate doesn't. I've only been studying medicine a few months and have already covered the vast majority of the relevant science which took 4 years to cover during my BSc. In some areas we've gone into detail I only touched on in my MSc. The amount of irrelevant detail in a science degree makes the 4 years a waste of time. I mean, how often would I need to call on knowledge from my applied ecology module if I chose to do an Immunology PhD? And my degree wasn't even non-denominated. A medical degree is also alot more academically demanding and intense than a science one (at least it has been in my case to date).
If I was an employer or PI and was presented with one scientist and one medic, equal in everything bar their undergrad, I'd pick the medic every time. If, on the other hand, you meant that a medical doctor (no PhD) was going for a research position against a science doctor (PhD), then it'd be one unemployed medic. Quite an interresting topic.

2Scoops

Biologic wrote: »

If I was an employer or PI and was presented with one scientist and one medic, equal in everything bar their undergrad, I'd pick the medic every time. If, on the other hand, you meant that a medical doctor (no PhD) was going for a research position against a science doctor (PhD), then it'd be one unemployed medic. Quite an interresting topic.

I was thinking more research science as a career. A medical graduate vs. PhD-level. Although, a medical graduate would also lose if the job was entry-level lab jockey at Big Pharma tbh! :pac:

Now, many doctors do perform research but, by and large, it is part-time and not very worthwhile. Occasionally at the consultant level, you get a good PI, but again, they remain practicing medics throughout.

In terms of what the just-qualified doctor can do that isn't medicine... I imagine the best bet is either medical sales rep, politics, or retrain.

lonestargirl

2Scoops wrote: »

I was thinking more research science as a career. A medical graduate vs. PhD-level. Although, a medical graduate would also lose if the job was entry-level lab jockey at Big Pharma tbh! :pac:

Any research scientist is going to need a PhD at a minimum.

2Scoops wrote: »

Now, many doctors do perform research but, by and large, it is part-time and not very worthwhile. Occasionally at the consultant level, you get a good PI, but again, they remain practicing medics throughout.

I work in a very large, internationally known research hospital. We have a lot of physician scientists on staff. These are MD/PhD graduates who have split commitments, usually 40% clinical, 40% research and 20% teaching. It works well, but again it's not an option for someone who wants to get out of clinical medicine.

2Scoops

lonestargirl wrote: »

I work in a very large, internationally known research hospital. We have a lot of physician scientists on staff. These are MD/PhD graduates who have split commitments, usually 40% clinical, 40% research and 20% teaching. It works well, but again it's not an option for someone who wants to get out of clinical medicine.

I agree, but no such program is in place in Ireland and the quality of the research environment is much poorer than in the US.

lonestargirl

2Scoops wrote: »

I agree, but no such program is in place in Ireland and the quality of the research environment is much poorer than in the US.

Agreed, it's a pity as it's the kind of setup that I would love to work in.

Dr.NickRiviera

Dear DocDaneka,

I read your initial post and most of the posts by other users afterwards. I am totally sympathetic to your ordeal. Just to give you a bit of background. I graduated from an arguably top school in Dublin 2009 (TCD) and spent a year of my life on a waiting list to get an internship in Ireland. As an international graduate who paid close to 30k/year for 6 years we are put on the backburner when it comes to the limited jobs available. I left no stone unturned in Ireland. The reigns were held by a 'intern coordinator' who offered jobs to others with lower marks and qualifications in a shrouded and non-transparent allocation system.

I fell into the most dismal period of my life where I was broke, in debt and had seemingly no options. Yeah sure there were times when I exhibited clinical signs of morbid depression. God knows there were times when I wished I wouldn't wake up. If it were not for the support of my loved ones and surprisingly boards.ie members I would not have got through that ordeal.

Now I have emigrated to New Zealand. There I not only found an absolutely breathtaking country, but I found the opportunity to live my dream. I listen to my old classmates and the quality of lives they lead back home in dublin and I really sympathize with them. Only a few years ago that insane work schedule was well compensated for by the HSE with money. Tonnes of it. I had mates that were pulling 10k/month AFTER taxes. Yeah sure they had no lives but they had the incentive of paying off all their debts and the knowledge that it was only temporary.

Things have changed now. Junior doctors are overworked and no longer just underpaid. They are not paid at all! Already I have spread the word among my old fellow classmates and 15 of us have made the move over to New Zealand. I can't promise you that you won't have delusional nursing staff that try to bully you or consultants that feel the need to unload their issues on you on any given day. It is far rarer over here though I have to say. Unfortunately that is part and parcel of being a junior doctor. It's world wide. Deal with it. What I can promise you though is a certain level of quality of life that cannot be dreamed of in the Irish health system. Work hours are fine. I do about 45-65 hours a week generally and if I do any overtime I am paid diligently for it no questions asked. I actually get trained. My registrar is happy to teach me a procedure or if the consultant is around happier to explain a clinical scenario to me. They have the time to do that here unlike Ireland. I'm less than 6 months in and already I've put in chest drains, central lines, wrist reductions and assisted in appendicectomies, Hemicolectomies and even an Ivor Lewis Esophagectomy! I love my job and I love my career. That's a given over here. The special thing is that I actually have a life. I work and still have time to socialize, play team sports, explore the wonderful nature of New Zealand and would you believe it..surf! I never surfed a day in my life until one weekend decided to try it out. The sun shines most days. The food is to die for. Everything is roughly 50% cheaper than Ireland. I actually can't find ways to spend my wages here. I wake up in the morning with the sun and smile on my face. Need I go on?

As for prospective medical students of the future. Although the HSE is currently in total melt down. I urge you to not let that sway you from your vocation. If you want to become a doctor no hell or high water should sway you. In fact I am certain you will face a magnitude of adversities on your journey to becoming a doctor. It only makes you stronger. As I am sure all you doctors out there recognize. We endure for that one moment when we are able to use our skills and judgement to affect a patients life, to console a family member or to make a child smile or just listen to the ramblings of a 80 year old lady in her last days. A career in medicine is without a shadow of a doubt not for everyone. You will question and wonder your choice often, thats only normal. It is however a lifelong journey full of excitement, sacrifice, hardship but immeasurable satisfaction. You need to think ahead and set a plan. Decide what lifestyle you want to lead and what makes you happy. For some the thought of leaving Ireland is not even on the table. That's fine. If you can though I urge you to take a moment and research what is out there. Word on the street is people are moving to Australia and New Zealand. Find those people and talk to them. Their feedback I am sure will prove inspiring. If you are not happy then you need to rectify the issue. Negativity only breeds more negativity and the day when you find yourself inadvertently unloading on a patient is the day you know its too late. Do not let it get that far. Empower yourself and live your life and career the way YOU want to.

If I'm not mistaken you will be soon applying for a training scheme in Ireland. If you're already there then I wish you the best of luck and strength in enduring. If you still haven't I urge you to contact me for further details about moving and working in New Zealand. I swear to you it will be the best move of your career and life.

As a final note. I have to say I miss Ireland and Dublin every single day. The healthcare system is a joke. We all know that. But the Craic there is unique and Ireland will always be my second home. If things were better I'd head back in a flash even though I may not see the sun for 6 months or pay unrealistic prices for everyday commodities. Ah sure I'd even give up my 3 bedroom villa overlooking the beach to be back in my warm 1 bedroom viewless apartment in Smithfield market taking the Luas to James' every morning...hmmm...or maybe not...:)

Take care people and feel free to message me with any queries.

Dr.NickRiviera
Coninuetur Remedia

bluewall

Thanks for that very interesting post Dr. Nick.

Did you have to sit any qualifying exams to be able to work NZ?

Out of interest - if anyone else happens to know, apart from the USMLE's for the US are there many other countries that require entrance exams to work there if you have Irish/EU medical degree??

Dr.NickRiviera

The New Zealand medical council requires that you complete a year of internship in Ireland in order to be able to practice there. As my particular case was unique I was granted a provisional licence to practice without any need to sit any exams. This loop hole is rare and only granted due to my qualification from TCD (apparently its regarded internationally as a top medical school) and firm backing from the hospital that offered me a post. In reality it meant I pretty much was thrown in the deep end as I started a house officer job as an intern. I won't lie the first 6 weeks was crazy. I laugh about it now but it truly was one hell of a ride. The beauty of medicine is experience trumps everything. The learning curve is phenominal! With dedication and commitment and above all else solid safe practice you'll be surprised the things you will get proficient at and also how fast you learn with the right approach and teaching. Doctors over here LOVE to teach if you are keen. Something I know for a fact is very rare in Ireland.

There is a shortage of junior doctors in New Zealand as the majority of graduates move to Australia. You may move to Australia and do your internship equivalent there but you will probably have to sit entrance exams. NZ has its own entrance exams but they are usually reserved for graduates outside the UK & Ireland. All in all NZ is far easier to get into and work in that Australia. Most start in NZ work for a year or two then move to Oz to work a few more. Fingers crossed if you follow that plan not only would you have lived a first class junior doctor lifestyle but you got to work & travel at the same time!

I applied and got accepted in other countries such as the UK however regardless of your qualification they require you to sit PLAB exams as it goes by passport rather than qualification. I remember my conversation with the PLAB administrator. I asked him politely after 30 minutes of conversation on the phone if he thought I really needed to sit an English proficiency exam. The last thing any graduate wants to do is sit more exams. You need to get working and start learning and earning. Of all the countries that you can do this in, New Zealand is arguably the best.

Hope that helps!

docbroc

As someone moving to NZ in the New Year you have made my day Dr Nick ! Thanks a lot for the post. I also graduated from TCD - unfortunately I got an internship. Wasted 3 years of my life being shafted around Irish Hospitals. Cant wait for a new start. Dreaming away already......................

jumpguy

2Scoops wrote: »

Not exactly. It's true that some doctors do research, but for most it's a side project they do to get promoted. If you actually want to make a career out of it, you probably wouldn't succeed. A medical degree is not designed to give the holder any research skills. Why would anyone hire a medical graduate for a science position ahead of an actual scientist?

Is a doctor not a scientist but with a different purpose and working environment? Diagnosing illnesses, treating illness, injuries, psychological illness, etc surely doctors one of the most capable practitioners of science (ie. a scientist)?

And also, you said you assumed it was med student graduate vs PhD. What are the opportunities for medicine graduates to undertake research solely? Surely medicine would be one of the best courses to do if you wished to undertake medical research? Research (in the beginning anyway) is obviously not as highly paid as working in a hospital, I realise that.

lonestargirl

jumpguy wrote: »

What are the opportunities for medicine graduates to undertake research solely?

Pretty much the same as a science graduate and a PhD would be necessary. People do leave medicine for basic science research, the current registrar of UCD has a medical degree but never practiced and was a lecturer in the physiology department before moving into his current role.

jumpguy wrote: »

Surely medicine would be one of the best courses to do if you wished to undertake medical research? Research (in the beginning anyway) is obviously not as highly paid as working in a hospital, I realise that.

Clinical research is, by and large, carried out by those who also have a clinical practice.

2Scoops

jumpguy wrote: »

Is a doctor not a scientist but with a different purpose and working environment? Diagnosing illnesses, treating illness, injuries, psychological illness, etc surely doctors one of the most capable practitioners of science (ie. a scientist)?

I think we differ on what science actually is. To me, science is the process of finding out new things through observation and experimentation. I don't agree that the practice of medicine itself fits that definition. Also, my comment was a follow up on whether a doctor could leave med to pursue science as a career, i.e. research.

jumpguy wrote: »

And also, you said you assumed it was med student graduate vs PhD. What are the opportunities for medicine graduates to undertake research solely?

Well, as I said before, many doctors perform science to some level. But, by and large, it is either a stepping stone to promotion or a side project to their clinical practice. Research as a career without medicine rarely happens in Ireland... or anywhere else.

jumpguy wrote: »

Surely medicine would be one of the best courses to do if you wished to undertake medical research?

I don't agree. Medicine teaches very little research skills, nor should it. I wouldn't hire a doctor to do a researcher's job.

A Neurotic

2Scoops wrote: »

I don't agree. Medicine teaches very little research skills, nor should it. I wouldn't hire a doctor to do a researcher's job.

As far as I know, most medical schools will offer an intercalated, research-based M.Sc during the med degree. I know in TCD we have the option of taking a year out after 3rd year to study for a M.Sc in Molecular Medicine, Neuroscience, Bioengineering, or Global Health.

Also, to a lesser degree, I've been told my med school has endeavoured to introduce more project- and research- based work in recent years. The main brunt of our last semester in Anatomy was to research, put together, present and teach each other projects on various parts of the head and neck, and next semester research projects will be a pretty large part of pharmacology, so much so that we get two weeks off in the middle of term solely to work on them.

We've also been informed about summer scholarships whereby we can apply to undertake our own research for an 8-week period under supervision.

All in all, obviously not as good as a proper science degree but the research opportunities are there for those of us who are interested!

lonestargirl

A Neurotic wrote: »

All in all, obviously not as good as a proper science degree but the research opportunities are there for those of us who are interested!

The original question posted was regarding going into research if you didn't like practicing medicine, that is very different from engaging in research (usually clinical, outcomes based) as part of your job as a doctor.

For a purely research career a medical degree is not worth any more than a science degree.

2Scoops

A Neurotic wrote: »

As far as I know, most medical schools will offer an intercalated, research-based M.Sc during the med degree. I know in TCD we have the option of taking a year out after 3rd year to study for a M.Sc in Molecular Medicine, Neuroscience, Bioengineering, or Global Health.

Also, to a lesser degree, I've been told my med school has endeavoured to introduce more project- and research- based work in recent years. The main brunt of our last semester in Anatomy was to research, put together, present and teach each other projects on various parts of the head and neck, and next semester research projects will be a pretty large part of pharmacology, so much so that we get two weeks off in the middle of term solely to work on them.

We've also been informed about summer scholarships whereby we can apply to undertake our own research for an 8-week period under supervision.

All in all, obviously not as good as a proper science degree but the research opportunities are there for those of us who are interested!

I'm not comparing a med degree with a basic science degree. I'm saying that full-time research gigs for qualified docs are few and far between. The things you have described are undergraduate projects, at best. If you think they give you any of the necessary research skills to secure full time employment in research, I disagree. The same can be said of basic sci degrees.

HQvhs

2Scoops wrote: »

I'm not comparing a med degree with a basic science degree. I'm saying that full-time research gigs for qualified docs are few and far between. The things you have described are undergraduate projects, at best. If you think they give you any of the necessary research skills to secure full time employment in research, I disagree. The same can be said of basic sci degrees.

I have to agree. While there is a much bigger focus on research in udnergraduate medicine, I think this is to prepare students for a world where doctors will also be carrying out more clinical research on the side (whether for an MD, promotional, or academic reasons). Medicine degrees also do not teach the same lab skills as any science degree, and are not particularly suited for preparing someone for a career in lab-based research. And rightfully so, too; a medicine degree prepares someone for being a clinician, a science degree prepares someone to be a scientist. There may be some overlap, but I think it would be very naive to assume one could simply jump ship to full-time research if medicine didn't work out without extensive retraining and considerable effort and expense. This is not to say it doesn't happen, just that it is very uncommon.

El_Dangeroso

Interesting (and horrifying) thread.

I had a brief flirtation with doing medicine but in my heart of hearts I know I'm not cut out for it. I work with doctors on a daily basis and I just couldn't do what they do. I did notice a trend though, people doing psychiatry and dermatology spr's tend to be a lot more chilled out and happy. Something to do with the specialty or co-incidence?

Also, if you want to get involved with clinical research as a doctor then you must continue clinical practice in order to get funding. Even the real big honcho's of research have to do this, it's seen as keeping your ear tuned to the needs of the patients, for whom research will ultimately benefit. Bench research I'm not so sure, but I don't think many doctors who'd accept the low wages, I know Phd's working for less than 30k!

docbroc

If you're looking for a job in Research a medical degree is definitely not the way to go. Each and every time you will lose out to someone with a Biochem degree and lab experience. To be honest the inter calculated years TCD does are a bit of a waste of time. 8 weeks indepedent research is a joke. These days you need a phd as a basic qualification for research / consultancy. Spending a year doing a msc is wasting a year you could be putting towards your phd. On the other hand it does postpone the time to the hell that is hospital medicine while you have some sort of a life left Medical research in Ireland is generally very low level stuff with job opportunities few and far between.