Before considering medicine as a career READ THIS!

docbroc

Susie-O- wrote: »

whatever about interns, Registrars do NOT spend that many nights in the hospital! Nor are they forced to staff 'rundown country hospitals'. It's a bloody great career, there's no job you can have without having to put in considerable hours before making it to the top...and i dunno what OP's talking about, but most of my classmates will be between 22 and 24 when they qualify! Consultant by early 30s so! and if you don't like hospital hours, go be a GP!

This is delusional. Im a final year SPR. I qualified aged 23.Spent 1 year as an intern. 2 years as an SHO. 3 years as a reg. I am 34 now. Once i qualify I will be surplus to requirements. The IMO estimate that even if the HSE kept up its plan to create all the new consultant posts (which it wont) less than 20% of SPR's could ever hope to have a consultancy post in Ireland in their lifetime. Most specialities have more SPR's than there are consultant posts in the speciality! Consultant 20 years, SPR 5 years, do the math.......
I know there will be no consultant posts coming up any time in the next few years in my speciality and even if there were, there would be at least 50 fully qualified applicants. I am facing having to uproot my family and spend the rest of my life abroad if i want to continue my career.

Regs spend more hours in hospital than interns. Much more. We do on call for A&E and in a lot of hospitals also do on call for wards. Plus there isnt any consultant cover on call so you are by and large the final line. Thats a lot of pressure. I was sent to a certain peripheral hospital in south east (forced) The sooner that dump is demolished - pref with the consultants inside it, the better. Anyway med students (as i assume you are Susie-o) get real. You work very hard to get where you are, im sorry there is no glittering career at the end of it. Just a lot of work, little rewards and emigration at the end.

Brods

Narkius Maximus wrote: »

I'm sorry but if this comes to pass it will truely be the death knell to medical and surgical training in Ireland. We will be a pure service industry clocking in and out, there will be little or no sense of duty or pride in what we do.

I think is the straw that finally broke the camel's back. I really thought I could do my training here (at least years 1-4SpR). I've already invested 5years post graduation in this country, including an research based M.D., but if the HSE gets their way, and there is no provsision for training then I am out. I'm gone. I really believe in a sense of duty, I really want to work here, pay taxes, repay the investment that was put into me, in my medical schooling and subsequent training. I always knew I'd leave for a fellowship, but didn't think I'd be leaving this early (bear in mind if I leave before SpR, my chances of being able to come back to work here are very slim, for reasons that frustrate anyone that has had to do it). So in a nut shell, I will be forced into emigration over the nest year or two.

I don't wish to scare the medical students, or people who wish to study medicine. Study Medicine, it's the best thing I think I could have possibly done, but open your eyes, listen to what is said from those who know.

I really hope this doesn't come to pass.

What you mean? I was under the impression going to train in the states was the easiest (read quickest) way to consultancy? At the moment I've no intention to work in Ireland, still in 3rd year though and haven't actually worked anywhere else so I can imagine the possibity of this changing!

Vorsprung

Brods wrote: »

What you mean? I was under the impression going to train in the states was the easiest (read quickest) way to consultancy? At the moment I've no intention to work in Ireland, still in 3rd year though and haven't actually worked anywhere else so I can imagine the possibity of this changing!

Not sure if it's the easiest - you have to have your USMLEs done to get there in the 1st place. You have to uproot your family to a foregin, distant country (relative to the UK, for example).

The rate-limiting factor to consultancy is the lack of consultant jobs, so if your fully qualified and waiting for a job, employing the services of a hitman to cancel the bosses at home might be your best bet.

dissed doc

Brods wrote: »

What you mean? I was under the impression going to train in the states was the easiest (read quickest) way to consultancy? At the moment I've no intention to work in Ireland, still in 3rd year though and haven't actually worked anywhere else so I can imagine the possibity of this changing!

It used to be, but there are huge discrepancies now between residencies and specialities for training. A residency may count for UEMS-accreditable speciality training, but in many or even most instances it's likely it's regarded as the equivalent of just Basic Specialist Training - i.e., SHO/Registrar years.

An example: to apply for a consultant post in Ireland the minimum is 7 years post grad training, 5 or 6 of those in the speciality field, and on the specialist register of an UEMS-accredited governing council, i.e., anyone on any UEMS specialist register can apply for consultant jobs anywhere in the EU.

But, completing say, an Internal medicine residency is only 4 years, but 1 is an intern year. Your residency is the equivalent of the first few years of SHO or Registrar training. Likely much better training, but not comparable to the requirements for UEMS specialist training, but each speciality decides what is acceptable or not, and that's where your US training centre (e.g., community based, university based and so on) becomes very important.

imported_guy

Brods wrote: »

What you mean? I was under the impression going to train in the states was the easiest (read quickest) way to consultancy? At the moment I've no intention to work in Ireland, still in 3rd year though and haven't actually worked anywhere else so I can imagine the possibity of this changing!

its the quickest (wouldnt say easiest) way if you can get into the programme that you like (and one that actully is good someone mentioned community vs university programmes etc). alot of programmes on NRMP filter out IMGs (international med grads) so they dont have to spend 5k$ for their visa sponsorship, so many programmes from dermatology/plastic/ortho/neuro surgery only accept american medical graduates (usually, but there are exceptions, I.E pulling serious strings, doing clinical rotations in america along with having top USMLE scores, and strong letters of recommendation from good US physicians/deans), after completing a residency you become "board certified" you can then apply for attending physician posts (AKA consultant jobs), if you have zero intention of working in ireland america is the way to go, most docs who go to OZ/NZ/UK tend to come back, most who go to america dont, unless they got into a sub par residency programme and werent able to earn a good living etc

Bluebell55

Have been following this thread for a while now- I have about 17 months left til I *hopefully* qualify- and while I cringe at some of the stories for a millisecond, I still can't wait.
Yeah the money mightn't be all it used to be, maybe the harsh words/colleagues might be tough to put up with, but at the end of the day it makes me tick!!
Having said that, a lot of things are up in the air at the moment with regard to training, EWTD, but at the end of the day, we are all in it together.
I do plan on training in the UK/Oz/NZ at some point, probably both, but ideally I want to come back to Ireland!
At the end of the day, I want a job I'm rewarded and challenged in, a husband/family and to be happy. Not much to ask, I think!

dissed doc

imported_guy wrote: »

if you have zero intention of working in ireland america is the way to go, most docs who go to OZ/NZ/UK tend to come back, most who go to america dont, unless they got into a sub par residency programme and werent able to earn a good living etc

One thing bearing in mind if you are thinking of the US, is to get your name into the Green Card lottery every year. If you go on an exchange visitor (J1) visa, it is an agreement between US and home country that your home country needs people with the training you are getting.

Once finished residency, you can either return to your home country (mandatory) for two years, or else attempt to get an exemption by working in a federally-designated underserved area (i.e., rural Oregan, New Mexico, etc., ) for a period of (AFAIR) 3 or 5 years.

If you get a green card (not as hard as it sounds in the lottery actually, although never bothered using mine) you are sorted and will get a good choice of residencies. H1B I think was the next best choice as you can keep applying for a green card while you are using the H1B. On a J1, you CANNOT transfer to a green card. The ONLY way out is exemption or return to home country for two years.

20 years ago, it was easier, as you pass an exam as a medic and get a green card based on it.

imported_guy

this is all good info and pretty accurate, if you go on a J1 and want to stay after a residency you need a letter from the irish government saying they dont need you, and then you have to work for 2 years in an under served area (dont think its more than 2), or else you can enlist in the military and get a green card immediatly (i have heard military isnt a bad option.), OR you can apply for a fellowship (it will renew your J1 visa, i dont know if you can switch to a H1B, because you might be able to since you would have done your USMLE step 3 at this stage) but getting a green card before applying is the BEST option, since you dont get filtered out of alot of good residency programmes.

lonestargirl

imported_guy wrote: »

this is all good info and pretty accurate, if you go on a J1 and want to stay after a residency you need a letter from the irish government saying they dont need you, and then you have to work for 2 years in an under served area (dont think its more than 2), or else you can enlist in the military and get a green card immediatly (i have heard military isnt a bad option.)

Depending on your speciality you might not be able to get a wavier, seems most common for family medicine and internal medicine, more info here and here.

imported_guy wrote: »

you can apply for a fellowship (it will renew your J1 visa, i dont know if you can switch to a H1B, because you might be able to since you would have done your USMLE step 3 at this stage)

You can't switch to a H1B, you would have to fulfill the 2-year rule before you can get any kind of immigrant visa.

imported_guy wrote: »

but getting a green card before applying is the BEST option, since you dont get filtered out of alot of good residency programmes.

+1, we applied last year but didn't get one in the lottery . With the economic situation in Ireland I suspect the numbers applying to the lottery are increasing.


This whole thread has become about how to get through training as quick as possible, which I think speaks volumes about the quality of training and the quality-of-life during it. It shouldn't be like this. Obviously those in training do more scutwork than the bosses but it shouldn't be so bad that focussing on the consultant post at the end is what gets people through it.

imported_guy

lonestargirl wrote: »

Depending on your speciality you might not be able to get a wavier, seems most common for family medicine and internal medicine, more info here and here.

thanks alot for this

lonestargirl wrote: »

This whole thread has become about how to get through training as quick as possible, which I think speaks volumes about the quality of training and the quality-of-life during it. It shouldn't be like this. Obviously those in training do more scutwork than the bosses but it shouldn't be so bad that focussing on the consultant post at the end is what gets people through it.

well, most people focus on becoming a consultant because that is when all the hard work pays off, and you finally become a physician who is considered competent enough to work on his own and is on top when it comes to the chain of command, in the military if you tell a fresh recruit "you will never become a five star general" all of them know that fact, and like close to a 100% of them will never make it there, but they still do their best to further their career, there is always a light at the end of the tunnel, in america if you tell a resident he will never make attending physician, he'll just go "lol come back to me in 3 years and see where im at", if you tell an irish SHO, he would struggle to make consultant they would probably say yeah thats probably close to the truth... and we havent heard from the OP in a while, i always thought this was sort of a troll post, if you try hard enough you will get where you want to go.

vinnylombardi99

Ha, this thread is funny. the scaremongering going on is laughable. there are a couple of things that spring to mind.

1. to people considering medicine; if you think medicine is a walk in the park as a career, you need to go see a doctor for a head exam.

2. to the folks already in there; if you think that medicine is harder than any other career, you also need to see a doctor.

Sure, some doctors have it bad, but a lot have it good. Same applies across the board. From my own experience, no matter what job it is, if you are at the bottom of the pile, you gotta shovel the most dirt. when you are the top, it's rosey.

I do think you shold know what you are getting yourself into but at the same time, basing any decision on the warning of an annonymous internet message board posting, ffs!
Go find out for yourself by trying it. Maybe you'll enjoy it, maybe you wont. Be ready for hell and take anything better than that as a bonus.

http://drcoxmedschool.blogspot.com/

Brods

Maybe I underestimated the difficulties with going stateside, of course I realised ya had to do USMLEs but didn't consider the visa situation. Does anyone know if I was to get a visa in the diversity (greencard) lottery do you have to be able to take it up straight away?

"HOW LONG DO APPLICANTS WHO ARE SELECTED REMAIN ENTITLED TO APPLY FOR VISAS IN THE DV CATEGORY?
Persons selected in the DV-2011 lottery are entitled to apply for visa issuance only during fiscal year 2011, from October 1, 2010, through September 30, 2011. Applicants must obtain their visa or adjust status by the end of the fiscal year. There is no carry-over of DV benefits into the next year for persons who are selected but who do not obtain visas by September 30, 2010 (the end of the fiscal year.). Also, spouses and children who derive status from a DV-2011 registration can only obtain visas in the DV category between October 2010 and September 2011. Applicants who apply overseas will receive an appointment letter from the KCC four to six weeks before the scheduled appointment."

Question is, do I need to be able to move to the states within the year or can I get the visa and then not actually go and have it if I need it? Only 3rd med now so applying in october would be pretty useless if I had to move there before even starting final year!

wayhey

This is a really interesting thread, and i've a few questions..if anyone in the job can answer, i'd b grateful..
(1) With all the talk of emmigration, when is the best time to go? After intern year? I'd be wondering particularly about the States..
(2) Would/have/will you choose another career? Do you regret it? What's you're alternate career?

(3) With other people, have you lost touch with good friends from school/college? Is it hard to meet people, relationships-wise? Do most end up wit someone from the medical field?

(4)What is your favourite aspect of the job? Or what do you like about your work?

(5)Hospital medicine is soul-crushing and its impossible to get into the GP programme. With that scenario what are your options without returning to college? Is it hard to get into academia/research?

Sorry if any mistakes, done on phone...great thread guys, thank you.

dissed doc

Brods wrote: »

Maybe I underestimated the difficulties with going stateside, of course I realised ya had to do USMLEs but didn't consider the visa situation. Does anyone know if I was to get a visa in the diversity (greencard) lottery do you have to be able to take it up straight away?
.....

Question is, do I need to be able to move to the states within the year or can I get the visa and then not actually go and have it if I need it? Only 3rd med now so applying in october would be pretty useless if I had to move there before even starting final year!

Usually you need to simply use it once to enter the US within a year of getting the interview. You can that by going on holiday for e.g., a week and coming back. BUT, you need to fill out some form to ensure that they know that although you are a permanent resident now, you can get around 1 year abroad. If you repeatedly do not assume residency, they will revoke the green card. To justify them allowing you to keep it > 2 years, you should have money, investments, and so in the US, fill out a yearly IRS form to pay US income taxes (just like George Hook says) (along with your taxes in Ireland BTW, although there are some tax credits).

imported_guy

Brods wrote: »

Maybe I underestimated the difficulties with going stateside, of course I realised ya had to do USMLEs but didn't consider the visa situation. Does anyone know if I was to get a visa in the diversity (greencard) lottery do you have to be able to take it up straight away?

"HOW LONG DO APPLICANTS WHO ARE SELECTED REMAIN ENTITLED TO APPLY FOR VISAS IN THE DV CATEGORY?
Persons selected in the DV-2011 lottery are entitled to apply for visa issuance only during fiscal year 2011, from October 1, 2010, through September 30, 2011. Applicants must obtain their visa or adjust status by the end of the fiscal year. There is no carry-over of DV benefits into the next year for persons who are selected but who do not obtain visas by September 30, 2010 (the end of the fiscal year.). Also, spouses and children who derive status from a DV-2011 registration can only obtain visas in the DV category between October 2010 and September 2011. Applicants who apply overseas will receive an appointment letter from the KCC four to six weeks before the scheduled appointment."

Question is, do I need to be able to move to the states within the year or can I get the visa and then not actually go and have it if I need it? Only 3rd med now so applying in october would be pretty useless if I had to move there before even starting final year!

i dont know but it wont hurt if u win and accept straight away you can do some clinicals over there and your application will stand out more since you will probably have strong letters of reccomendations from US physicians, and also would be an advantage applying to the same hospital you did your rotations at since they will know what you're like they will put you before others granted they dont hate you

dissed doc

wayhey wrote: »

This is a really interesting thread, and i've a few questions..if anyone in the job can answer, i'd b grateful..
(1) With all the talk of emmigration, when is the best time to go? After intern year? I'd be wondering particularly about the States..

Depends on your field and whether it's full on emigration or just training. For emigration, obviously the sooner you get a green card and leave (as soon as you graduate, before ever bothering with internship here) the better. For training, with no green card, many many residencies including some of the best ones will be closed to you as they don't want to spend thosuands processing visas when there may be a local graduate, unless of course you are great and will boost the departments name. In this case, non emigration route, you are better off having some experience, some US electives in the summer, publications, etc., to get in the door.

(2) Would/have/will you choose another career? Do you regret it? What's you're alternate career?

I would like to be a pirate, but failing that, I am pretty happy with medicine.

(3) With other people, have you lost touch with good friends from school/college? Is it hard to meet people, relationships-wise? Do most end up wit someone from the medical field?

The diversity of fields in medicine means some people only ever see their small group of colleagues, others may be working in Africa for MSF. Who you meet and what you spend your time doing, is entirely up to you.

(4)What is your favourite aspect of the job? Or what do you like about your work?

Improving peoples' lives.

(5)Hospital medicine is soul-crushing and its impossible to get into the GP programme. With that scenario what are your options without returning to college? Is it hard to get into academia/research?

There are huge differences in field. The only standard soul crushingness is during internship. After that, your days, working time, etc., are largely something you balance up for yourself. Like someone said above, when you are at the bottom, you have shovel a lot more. A lot of docs think they are special (true, I said it), especially new grads until they normalise a little and adapt to the real world. If you give a nurse of 20 years a hard time as a 1 week old intern, you deserve what you get. At this stage, doctors start to grow up at different paces. 10 years later, you'll see who is a consultant and who is seemingly an eternal registrar.

Academia in Ireland is pretty primitive compared to the UK, US, Aus, Germany and Netherlands, who drive a lot of it. That said, again, your chosen field might be one with the main academia people based in Bangalore. You need to seek out what you want and then find who is doing it. Ireland does not have the money now and certainly will have less and less for any research as the next decade comes and goes.

All IMHO of course.

just-joe

As a prospective med student, I've been following this very interesting thread closely. I have limited knowledge of the medical world but judging from the different opinions that come and go here it seems that its like anything else in life - people have varied experiences, and each individual's experience will contain good and not so good parts.

After being thrown off from reading the negative stories, I'm back on track and think med could still be for me, especially since travelling/living somewhere else would suit me down to the ground!

Now I'm just wondering: after the reading the posts about America, and how hard it is to jump through the loops to get in, do many Irish people actually manage to get over there and get jobs? I assume its alot less than the number that go to Oz/NZ?

And also, do many people head somewhere completely random? South America/Asia/mainland Europe?

dissed doc

just-joe wrote: »

And also, do many people head somewhere completely random? South America/Asia/mainland Europe?

Few do, for the reason that as with people in the UK, most Ireland people lack any real standardised and examined spoken non-English language skills. For example, there are around 1500 jobs advertised for doctors in the EU every month, across all fields and all levels of experience. This excludes private hospitals.

People are going to Aus/NZ or Canada becuase of perceived money and quality of life. I don't understand this myself, as money seems high in western europe countries. Certainly, you will have higher purchasing power in netherlands, germany and united kingdom on a consultants salary there than in Ireland now.

The UEMS equalised all qualifications. A surgeon from Lithuania can work as a surgeon in Ireland, Spain, etc., . In reality, the UK is the main target as salaries are much higher there than elsewhere. Ireland now is quite unattractive as a destination as the low work quality of life is no longer offset by increased compensation.

moncai

I've read this thread over the last while as it has progressed, and one thing seems alarmingly clear from most of the posters. There doesn't seem to be much if any co-ordination among junior doctors regarding their union and attempting to effect some positive change in relation to their working conditions.
It seems that the reportedly punishing working conditions of recently qualified doctors is the cause of this because they have neither the spare energy nor time required to mount any kind of unified complaint or challenge to the HSE.
That and a noble attitude of self sacrifice for the benefit of the patient nearest to hand where you seem to forgoe your own personal concerns in the interest of a sick person looking for your help.
It sounds like a very difficult situation to be in.

If this is the case can there be an option of employing paid representatives to actively seek change on your behalf?
I'm sure someone will point out some already existing union which is supposedly charged with protecting your rights as an employee yes?
Well if they aren't doing thier job adequately can you not politely show them the door and employ others in their place?

I just find it sad that doctors, traditionally reverred as one of the guardians of a society up there with Judges et al. have been reduced to such a state of dejection and cynicism.
You're meant to be healers right? that's the whole idea. The concept of causing damage to your own comrades through bullying or subversion seems anathaema to me for what you're about. That type of behaviour seems more suited to the cutthroat world of business and mercantilism. One explanation for this dramatic change in practice and attitude of doctors could be this:
Traditionally medicine has been the exclusive realm of the most 'intelligent' students in order to ensure the individual concerned has the ability to handle the pressures of the responsibilites given. That's a good approach to recruiting medical students however it seems that those most 'intelligent' went into medicine not to improve the standard of healthcare or advance our knowledge of the human system but to improve their own situation in a field unprepared for their cut-throat tactics. It makes sense really, they saw an opportunity of a field in which no one else was in it for the money and they gained entry and proceeded to feather their nests.
So it seems you have been infiltrated by people with the wrong motives and as a result your profession has crumbled from within over a few short decades. This could nearly explain the bad attitude of the HSE towards doctors... if you found your employees to be selfserving arrogant and disinterested you'd prob be pissed off with them too.
I guess the Hpat requirement and the introduction of the graduate entry programs have gone some way towards refining recruitment.

However now we hear complaints of graduates and young doctors full of enthusiasm and a desire to improve the well-being of their fellow man having their soul destroyed by the consequences due to those that went before them. It really looks like ripe ground for a revolution if you ask me.
No doctor can be expected to bear the responsibility of a patients care having been deprived of sleep for the previous 12 hours let alone 24 or 36. It's grossly irresponsible and immoral for the HSE to expect it.

I mean you commanded high wages before because you were a limited expert resource yes, but also because the work you do is so pressure intensive when someone elses life may depend on you.
Traditionally people paid anything they could to secure your intervention and therefore improve their own chances of living healthily.
People will pay again in the private system.
I reckon that's your best way forward, you can demand your own rates and demand a certain standard of working conditions. I guess the problem is that entry to status as a consultant where you can command and demand is controlled by the HSE and it's bottle-neck system of training.
Trying to repair your relationship with your employer seems to be an important step. If they won't deal with you reasonably then go to the public and petition them to mandate the government to intervene within the HSE? I dunno if that can effectively be done when executives in HSE are on higer wages than ministers... the balance of power is subconsciously tilted in favour of the non-governmental execs.

I know i may have used some langauge in this post which seems to stereotype or pigeonhole certain factions but my intention is more to understand the situation as represented by the op than to support any particular view. Nor do i attempt to solve this puzzling situation for you.
As a prospective GAMSAT testee i certainly hope that;
1. I get in! and
2. That the system has improved when i start working to the extent that yes, i may still get my ass handed to me as an intern but after that i get support as a raw junior doctor rather than punishing conditions in which i try to grow.

As and outsider i have no idea of any practical way of effecting change for you guys but i certainly hope some bright spark among you has it in them to set something in motion. Otherwise i'll try when/if i get there i guess.

danthefan

I was all set on doing the GAMSATs, I knew the early years of medicine would be tough with all the hours and being at the bottom of the foodchain and the likes but I had it in my head this was a) something I'd love to do and b) something I could make a career out of. I've sort of been waiting for something to come along and stop me in my tracks, and I think this thread is it, particularly now b) above seems to be in a fair bit of doubt.

EmmaGEM11

I posted on another thread asking what life was like post GEM. I came across this thread. Wow. I just wanted to say thank you to everyone who contributed, I really think it is a service to potential med students that we get the real facts.

Excellent post.

Zenith23

Good god!

I just read through a few posts and belated this may be I am appalled!
What kind of society condones the restricting and suppressing of hard working people?

Reading through, I was, in truth, exasperated by the sheer volume of claims of corruption in the current Irish health system. Do the HSEs and politicians not realise that there not only driving young doctors away but actually giving them no alternative but to leave this country? Unpaid overtime? "Overlooked" wages? Imminent bullying?!

Suffice to say, this board has indeed opened my eyes on some matters and highlighted the current systems overall incompetence but I still have every intention of practicing medicine....In Ireland however, I'm not too sure :rolleyes:

J_E

If you were to work in another EU country, would there not be a massive language barrier? It's just the one thing that's struck me about emigrating really.

dissed doc

Cydoniac wrote: »

If you were to work in another EU country, would there not be a massive language barrier? It's just the one thing that's struck me about emigrating really.

All things being equal, half the doctors in Ireland don't come from an English speaking country or one where English is taught as a second language from a young age; we don't get huge amounts of applicants from Norway, for example.

The european framework for languages is a good basis, and generally speaking, you need B1 level at a minimum to work in the country (beyond bar or cafe jobs) and C1 at professional level. A 2-3 month course in a country of your choice will see you get at least B2 but more likely C1 if your job depends on it. Sweden, etc., pay for language training.

The main problem you will see is that many countries in europe match trainees to state consultant/attending jobs, so there may be few vacancies (in Ireland, we have loads of training jobs, little else).

Scientist1

Hi, thanks a mill for the info (even though it is quite dis-heartening)...At the moment, I'm saving / studying for the GAMSAT's. I've already done a BSc & MSc in Science. First job: clinical data management - ridiculously low wages, impossible to live in Dublin (39 hour week though) - and a Science degree was a requirement for this job. Then spent 2 years working as a contract technician in a pharmaceutical company, got paid for a 39 hour week and worked 60 - 100 hrs/week, no union, did the hrs in fear of contract not being renewed, etc...Now back to boring 39 hour brain-dead work, most of my colleagues barely have a leaving cert...although I suppose I am lucky to have a job in these times...

If / when I finish Medicine, I will be 33 yrs old and approx. 100,000e in debt...am I absolutely crazy? What are the wages like? Would I be able to pay this loan off within the required 10 years or will I end up the most over-educated bank-rupt person???!!!

Anyone else in this situation???....

pewpew12

Hi Scientist1, i kind of know what you mean, although I do live on the otherside of the world in NZ!

I'm working in a 9-5 public sector job (with a masters degree where most my colleagues generally have nothing) on a moderate wage. I just sat gamsat this year and will aim for 2012 entry in Aus and will graduate at age 30/31. As a warning I find these types of threads can be useful to a point but tend to focus on extremes, usually negative though to enlighten us 'newbies'. So take everything with a grain of salt.

I also have thestudent debt issue, (do you guys have to pay it off in 10 years?) but my main concern since I am recently married (wife studying at the moment with debt) is the 4 years with no income, difficulty on her whilst I study. If you are single then you have a lot more freedom to move around and work long hours, live like a bum.

Although I can only speak from Aus/NZ, you will eventually earn plenty as a doctor - all types incl GP's earn higher than almost every occupation so it will definitely 'pay off' in terms of $$, just not straight away. What other occupations can guarantee such a good income? People always say - a partner in a law firm or a CEO or CFO's make just as much if not more than a doc....ok....but what small % of law grads / finance grads or other professionals get to that stage, its a long road for them even if the do. Med is a secure career where you will make money, with the future situation you may have to move around but its a lot more secure than a lot of professions.

For me I hate the idea of doing a mind dead job / excel spreadsheets for the rest of my working life. Lets just get drunk and play pingpong.

Scientist1

Thanks, you're right - the "perfect" job doesn't exist and most of these people would not do any other profession anyway...I'm trying to save as much as possible now and then hopefully be able to work part-time..
Best of Luck - I hope to start in 2012 as well - at least we know the dead-end job will end - never give up on your dreams!!!

ThatDrGuy

Scientist1 wrote: »

Hi, thanks a mill for the info (even though it is quite dis-heartening)...At the moment, I'm saving / studying for the GAMSAT's. I've already done a BSc & MSc in Science. First job: clinical data management - ridiculously low wages, impossible to live in Dublin (39 hour week though) - and a Science degree was a requirement for this job. Then spent 2 years working as a contract technician in a pharmaceutical company, got paid for a 39 hour week and worked 60 - 100 hrs/week, no union, did the hrs in fear of contract not being renewed, etc...Now back to boring 39 hour brain-dead work, most of my colleagues barely have a leaving cert...although I suppose I am lucky to have a job in these times...

If / when I finish Medicine, I will be 33 yrs old and approx. 100,000e in debt...am I absolutely crazy? What are the wages like? Would I be able to pay this loan off within the required 10 years or will I end up the most over-educated bank-rupt person???!!!

Anyone else in this situation???....

You sir will be neck deep in the big muddy. Cant say what things will be like when you qualify (we may be back to exorcisms and trepenation at that stage) but if you qualified tomorrow you would be in trouble. It will take you at least 5 years to become a GP (if you are lucky enough to get on scheme ) and several more to get set up enough to earn anything. You will find it practically impossible to persue a career in hospital medicine at that age because the training schemes will go to the 20 somethings. Besides do you really want to spend 1 in 6 nights on call aged 35+ ? With that level of debt you wont be able to afford a house or family, unless your significant other is very well off. I had 15,000 euro student debt and i had a lot of trouble paying it off over 3 years. Might seem daft but you have so many ancillary expenses for being a doctor - moving house every few months, insurance, exams, courses etc that you can literally come out with nothing saved after a year. Plus I have a modest lifestyle, no mortgage, family, holidays etc. Id be very focused on the US if i were you, do USMLES asap. Much much shorter qualification time and faster income to pay off loans.

jenga-jen

Scientist1: you'll see a lot of these fine examples of the 'informative' posts in this thread relating to prospective medical students.

While I have nothing but respect and appreciation for any kind of balanced information both pro and con in relation to studying medicine, I've abandoned this thread in recent months due to, imo, the inordinate amount of scare mongering it contains.

I have to add to what pewpew12 said and while advising you to take everything with a grain of salt, would also add that all of these people could have dropped out and lessened their debt or moved into other careers (especially if they were reasonably debt free due to the free fees) but chose to remain in their chosen careers. There has to be a reason for this beyond a fear/unwillingness to move.

I have literally just let the ink dry on my €100k** loan for graduate medicine and, at 26, will be 31 by the time I've completed my intern year. You need to look at the 100k as an investment for all of the years between your current age and when you retire. When you divide that out it suddenly doesn't seem like so much does it?

I've met people on my course with mortgages, babies, partners. If they can manage then so can we.

I've also met so many students currently in the latter years of the course who just can't say enough about how much they're enjoying the course itself.

Most people in any profession who've been through rigorous training (e.g, law, accountancy, pilots) would have the whole 'are you mad?' response if you said you were following in their footsteps. Purely because they wouldn't want to have to do it again. However, ask most of them if they'd go back and do something else if they could.... the answer's generally 'no'.

And NOBODY knows what state the healthcare system/job market will be in in 5 years time. I'd rather do something I love now rather than wonder 'what if?' when I'm 70. Wouldn't you?

** which it might help you to know, is stepped over the 4 years and you only draw down cash as you need it so that you only pay the interest on what you've taken so far. Also the APR is 3.13% with AIB this year so it's very different to your regular student loans.

tallaght01

It's all very well being not even in 1st year and saying these types of posts are "informative" in the way that was intended.

Med school is great. Final students will always say it's great. Being an intern is easy, it's just long hours.

I'd go back to med school in a heartbeat. Loved it.

I wouldn't touch medicine again, though, except for the existence of public health. I'd do a finance related degree, like economics I reckon, or possibly politics.

I'd hate to be trying to compete for training programmes in my 30s. I'd doubly hate to be doing lots of night shifts aswell into my forties. I think that would actually be the worst of it.

I know the nights and long weekend shifts became a LOT harder once I hit 30. They were tough enough in my 20s. But I don't do them now, and I'm not sure I'd cope all that well with them now.

I'm working in oz now, in fairness, but I doubt the money is much different, and have only just paid off my student loan, which was less money than one year of GEM, and I still don't have much money left at the end of the month. I'm 33 years old.

I have always thought that GEM was a total moneyspinner, and there has been no thought about the implications of churning out older grads, with very few training posts, and even less consultant posts.

I predict a huge amount of people trying to get into GP/public health/rehab etc in the next few years, which are all oversubscribed now as it is.