Before considering medicine as a career READ THIS!

dissed doc

One of the reasons that people get to Consultant/Attending level (basically post-specialisation level) in their 30's in the US is that productivity of specialists is at it;s highest during your 30s - it's when people with high qualifications work hard, probably don't have kids in schools yet and other distractions. This reduces when you are in your 40s, other responsibilities and the enthusiasm drops for working 60hrs+ and pushing out research.

In Ireland, people spend their most productive years abroad and return in late 30s/early 40s if at all.

imported_guy

lonestargirl wrote: »

Resident: limit of 80 hrs per week, 2-3 weeks holidays per year, $42k-50K.

Attending: work 50-80 hrs per week, better holidays, $150-400k per year.

some residencies can pay upto 57-60k depending on cost of living where you go

you can find details here for some of them https://freida.ama-assn.org/Freida/user/viewProgramSearch.do

150-400k is pretty arbitrary, some specialities are pretty lucrative and can earn in like millions (interventional cardiology, GI, plastics, anesthesia/pain management, dermatology.... ofcourse in a good group practice setting that is), and some like FP or paediatrics are pretty crappy even less than 150k in places depending on where/how much you work.

Laydee

I applied for radiography last year & didn't get it, however while on my work experience placement I was shadowing a few radiologists as the radiography students were shadowing the radiographers. I loved it & it has made me think that now I want to do GEM & go into radiology. This thread is a real eye opener though. I am in my first year of nursing now & think that maybe radiology nursing might be another option. My heart is set on radiology at the moment but quality of life would be a huge factor for me, I have a family to think about.

kate.m

I'm doing my leaving cert this year and was set on medicine. I have been since work experience in a hospital, hospice and lab(with a MD)
I don't know if this has put me off the course or not.

Work experience and an interest in LC biology is the only reason I want to do medicine...6th yrs are not going to have a clue what they are signing themselves up for when they pick a course/career.

Is it honestly that bad?! I feel as if I will be in way over my head after reading about some of your descriptions.

ANY advice would be appreciated.

jmn89

kate.m wrote: »

I'm doing my leaving cert this year and was set on medicine. I have been since work experience in a hospital, hospice and lab(with a MD)
I don't know if this has put me off the course or not.

Work experience and an interest in LC biology is the only reason I want to do medicine...6th yrs are not going to have a clue what they are signing themselves up for when they pick a course/career.

Is it honestly that bad?! I feel as if I will be in way over my head after reading about some of your descriptions.

ANY advice would be appreciated.

Hang in there Kate! It's a pretty upsetting thread to read if you don't take it with a pinch of salt!!

I'm in final med in TCD at the minute (finishing up in April - can't wait). Med in TCD is a 5 year course for all now (no option of pre-med, I'm sure you know already), so most of my friends in other courses finished last year and are jobless (many on the verge of indefinite emigration) and largely directionless and the lucky few are in postgrad or working in jobs for which they're grossly overqualified.

I'm sure that the negatives don't need any more attention and they certainly shouldn't be ignored - long hours obviously, many interns and junior doctors literally not being paid a cent for unrostered overtime despite doing 10-20 hours extra per week, the trend towards litigation in times of economic downturn, the occasional difficult colleage or frequent difficult situations...

However, there are so many positives from where I'm standing:
1) The HSE gave our class a talk this week on how they're actually planning to open up some restricted specialties to interns when we're applying for jobs next year and are planning to INCREASE rather than decrease the number of intern jobs. There will be roughly 520 intern jobs available next year for 430 EU graduates from Irish universities (jobs offered preferentially to EU citizens and the remnants are filled by applicants who require work permits, i.e. non-EU). Therefore, I'm actually guaranteed a job next year.
2) There's literally a specialty to suit every type of person. People in my class are planning to work in and have every possibility of successfully specialising in anything from GP to psychiatry to A&E to pathology to surgery to public health... as much or as little patient contact as you like, as much or as little gore/intellectualising as you like...
3) It remains a respectable and respected professional career with great prospects for working abroad, research, postgrad studies, has a natural advancement process.

Not to mention all the positives of studying medicine in uni - getting to know a fantastic bunch of people quite intimately (it's a course that's so heavy on hours and you're so frequently paired with random other students not of your choosing that the comeraderly is very real, through shared experiences both difficult and amazing).

I'm aware of the negatives, possibly more than a little naive but certainly more than a little determined that I won't be defeated by them. A mantra of mine is that anybody can do anything if they're good enough...

Good luck Kate, with whatever you choose to do!

Chuchoter

kate.m wrote: »

I'm doing my leaving cert this year and was set on medicine. I have been since work experience in a hospital, hospice and lab(with a MD)
I don't know if this has put me off the course or not.

Work experience and an interest in LC biology is the only reason I want to do medicine...6th yrs are not going to have a clue what they are signing themselves up for when they pick a course/career.

Is it honestly that bad?! I feel as if I will be in way over my head after reading about some of your descriptions.

ANY advice would be appreciated.

I agree, I read this thread and it is so, unbelievably depressing I'm in 5th year.

opinion guy

jmn89 wrote: »

1) The HSE gave our class a talk this week on how they're actually planning to open up some restricted specialties to interns when we're applying for jobs next year and are planning to INCREASE rather than decrease the number of intern jobs. There will be roughly 520 intern jobs available next year for 430 EU graduates from Irish universities (jobs offered preferentially to EU citizens and the remnants are filled by applicants who require work permits, i.e. non-EU). Therefore, I'm actually guaranteed a job next year.

Interesting. First I heard of this - they must be keeping this one on the down-low. Sorry to bring you guys down again, but don't you see this for what it is ? They can't fill SHO posts cause people are leaving/locuming. So instead they are increasing numbers of interns to fill the gap (having decreased them in the last few years). Because interns are the one group who are a truly captive market and can't easily leave. Its actually rather deviously clever on their part. Instead of reforming working conditions for the SHO's and Reg's just hire a bunch more interns who are a lot cheaper. Its the cheapest short term solution numbers-wise. Its NOT a solution service wise

I shudder to think what this means for a) you guys who will doubtless be thrown into situations you are not prepared for and b) the patients who will have inexperienced interns in place of more experienced shos's and reg's c) the implications for training and the future of the health service

Prime Mover

opinion guy wrote: »

Interesting. First I heard of this - they must be keeping this one on the down-low. Sorry to bring you guys down again, but don't you see this for what it is ? They can't fill SHO posts cause people are leaving/locuming. So instead they are increasing numbers of interns to fill the gap (having decreased them in the last few years). Because interns are the one group who are a truly captive market and can't easily leave. Its actually rather deviously clever on their part. Instead of reforming working conditions for the SHO's and Reg's just hire a bunch more interns who are a lot cheaper. Its the cheapest short term solution numbers-wise. Its NOT a solution service wise

I shudder to think what this means for a) you guys who will doubtless be thrown into situations you are not prepared for and b) the patients who will have inexperienced interns in place of more experienced shos's and reg's c) the implications for training and the future of the health service

I think you might be reading a bit too much into that. The number of interns will have to increase to match the recent increase in medical graduates from the traditional and GEM courses. You have to complete the intern year to be fully registered with the Medical council so if these extra intern places weren't created there would be murder.

opinion guy

Prime Mover wrote: »

I think you might be reading a bit too much into that. The number of interns will have to increase to match the recent increase in medical graduates from the traditional and GEM courses. You have to complete the intern year to be fully registered with the Medical council so if these extra intern places weren't created there would be murder.

Two birds....one stone....

Prime Mover

opinion guy wrote: »

Two birds....one stone....

This is not something they thought up recently. It is part of the Fottrell report from years ago. By assuming this is "rather deviously clever" you are giving them far too much credit.

It actually highlights how incredibly fcuking stupid they are to negotiate a consultant contract that takes NCHD posts out of the system when there is an increased cohort of medical students coming down the tracks.

kate.m

jmn89 wrote: »

Hang in there Kate! It's a pretty upsetting thread to read if you don't take it with a pinch of salt!!

I'm in final med in TCD at the minute (finishing up in April - can't wait). Med in TCD is a 5 year course for all now (no option of pre-med, I'm sure you know already), so most of my friends in other courses finished last year and are jobless (many on the verge of indefinite emigration) and largely directionless and the lucky few are in postgrad or working in jobs for which they're grossly overqualified.

I'm sure that the negatives don't need any more attention and they certainly shouldn't be ignored - long hours obviously, many interns and junior doctors literally not being paid a cent for unrostered overtime despite doing 10-20 hours extra per week, the trend towards litigation in times of economic downturn, the occasional difficult colleage or frequent difficult situations...

However, there are so many positives from where I'm standing:
1) The HSE gave our class a talk this week on how they're actually planning to open up some restricted specialties to interns when we're applying for jobs next year and are planning to INCREASE rather than decrease the number of intern jobs. There will be roughly 520 intern jobs available next year for 430 EU graduates from Irish universities (jobs offered preferentially to EU citizens and the remnants are filled by applicants who require work permits, i.e. non-EU). Therefore, I'm actually guaranteed a job next year.
2) There's literally a specialty to suit every type of person. People in my class are planning to work in and have every possibility of successfully specialising in anything from GP to psychiatry to A&E to pathology to surgery to public health... as much or as little patient contact as you like, as much or as little gore/intellectualising as you like...
3) It remains a respectable and respected professional career with great prospects for working abroad, research, postgrad studies, has a natural advancement process.

Not to mention all the positives of studying medicine in uni - getting to know a fantastic bunch of people quite intimately (it's a course that's so heavy on hours and you're so frequently paired with random other students not of your choosing that the comeraderly is very real, through shared experiences both difficult and amazing).

I'm aware of the negatives, possibly more than a little naive but certainly more than a little determined that I won't be defeated by them. A mantra of mine is that anybody can do anything if they're good enough...

Good luck Kate, with whatever you choose to do!

Thanks so much. A more positive opinion is highly appreciated
.
Whats med. like in Trinity?? I heard that the exams are all at the end of the year and that in general its approached differently compared to UCD,UCC and NUIG.
I don't know how correct my sources are or anything, I'm just curious.

Also would you say that higher level maths is necessary for med.? I have chemistry and biology and like them both, but I heard on work exp. that physics/math is involved during the 1st yr. I know its not a requirement for the CAO. I was just wondering if I would be out of my league....

You have made me way more optimistic about the course. Thanks!

A Neurotic

kate.m wrote: »

Thanks so much. A more positive opinion is highly appreciated
.
Whats med. like in Trinity?? I heard that the exams are all at the end of the year and that in general its approached differently compared to UCD,UCC and NUIG.
I don't know how correct my sources are or anything, I'm just curious.

Also would you say that higher level maths is necessary for med.? I have chemistry and biology and like them both, but I heard on work exp. that physics/math is involved during the 1st yr. I know its not a requirement for the CAO. I was just wondering if I would be out of my league....

You have made me way more optimistic about the course. Thanks!

[2nd year in TCD here]

Our exams (for first and second year anyway) are at the end of each semester, ie one set before Christmas and another in May.

HL Maths is not in any way essential

kate.m

A Neurotic wrote: »

[2nd year in TCD here]

Our exams (for first and second year anyway) are at the end of each semester, ie one set before Christmas and another in May.

HL Maths is not in any way essential

Thanks so much!, thats great news
At least now I can consider dropping it...

WhosUpDocs

kate.m wrote: »

Thanks so much!, thats great news
At least now I can consider dropping it...

Consider keeping it on this year though! Aren't they bringing in that 25 extra points thing? So even if you scrape a pass in it you'll be getting 70 points. More than an A1 in pass.

Blatter

WhosUpDocs wrote: »

Consider keeping it on this year though! Aren't they bringing in that 25 extra points thing? So even if you scrape a pass in it you'll be getting 70 points. More than an A1 in pass.

That's coming into play for LC 2012 afaik.

kate.m

WhosUpDocs wrote: »

Consider keeping it on this year though! Aren't they bringing in that 25 extra points thing? So even if you scrape a pass in it you'll be getting 70 points. More than an A1 in pass.

Sadly, thats next year....along with the introduction of project maths...don't get me started on that....basically I'm missing out on a far easier course and bonus points....at this stage HL math is a lot of work. I get the most homework and tests in it and I hear that ordinary level is just a lot easier. I don't know yet but medicine is all about getting enough points so it might be better to focus on other subjects. But thanks!

QueenOfLeon

I get the feeling that medicine will be excluded from the bonus maths points....just my opinion since it hasn't been mentioned yet!

Chuchoter

QueenOfLeon wrote: »

I get the feeling that medicine will be excluded from the bonus maths points....just my opinion since it hasn't been mentioned yet!

No they've just adjusted the points up to max 565 I think.

QueenOfLeon

crayolastereo wrote: »

No they've just adjusted the points up to max 565 I think.

Oh really? Didn't think they had published that much about it. Not much incentive for keeping it on for med then (if you were going to drop it before) with only 5 points max...

kate.m

QueenOfLeon wrote: »

Oh really? Didn't think they had published that much about it. Not much incentive for keeping it on for med then (if you were going to drop it before) with only 5 points max...

yeah, I think most people fall down with the hpat anyway. The bonus points only cound for next year (as in 5th yrs this year) So I can only get 560 anyway...not that I will get it or anything :-)

briankirby

QueenOfLeon wrote: »

Oh really? Didn't think they had published that much about it. Not much incentive for keeping it on for med then (if you were going to drop it before) with only 5 points max...

Does this HL bonus points thing only count for people who do honour maths next year and not those who did it previous years??Hardly seems fair:o

QueenOfLeon

briankirby wrote: »

Does this HL bonus points thing only count for people who do honour maths next year and not those who did it previous years??Hardly seems fair:o

Its only coming in for more colleges now (its been in UL for a good while but theres no medicine there). It only applies to people in 5th year now, who'll be sitting the LC in 2012.

ORLY?

QueenOfLeon wrote: »

Its only coming in for more colleges now (its been in UL for a good while but theres no medicine there). It only applies to people in 5th year now, who'll be sitting the LC in 2012.

This is a bit weird, surely those who do the LC in 2011 but aren't applying till 2012 will get the bonus points added. There is no way that they could give some candidates higher points than others just because they did the leaving cert in a different year.

QueenOfLeon

ORLY? wrote: »

This is a bit weird, surely those who do the LC in 2011 but aren't applying till 2012 will get the bonus points added. There is no way that they could give some candidates higher points than others just because they did the leaving cert in a different year.

Oh no it'll apply then if people don't apply to the CAO til 2012...when they give their results to the CAO it'll be matched with the system being used that year.

briankirby

QueenOfLeon wrote: »

Oh no it'll apply then if people don't apply to the CAO til 2012...when they give their results to the CAO it'll be matched with the system being used that year.

Ok,that sounds a lot fairer.
And,how many bonus points do u get??
Like,is it 20 for an A1,15 for A2 etc??
Cheers

lctake2

You get the full 25 points no matter what grade you get as long as you pass. Can't decide whether it's fair or not that people that did their LC not knowing about this will be marked this way too. I didn't do honours maths because I knew I'd get an A more easily in another subject but would have kept it on for the points. Luckily I have no interest in applying for another course but if I did I'd be 25 points down compared to most people

briankirby

lctake2 wrote: »

You get the full 25 points no matter what grade you get as long as you pass. Can't decide whether it's fair or not that people that did their LC not knowing about this will be marked this way too. I didn't do honours maths because I knew I'd get an A more easily in another subject but would have kept it on for the points. Luckily I have no interest in applying for another course but if I did I'd be 25 points down compared to most people

So once u pass hons maths,u get 25 leaving cert points for all courses:eek:
Thats the most idiotic system iv ever heard of.What about those who get an A1 compared to a D3??

QueenOfLeon

briankirby wrote: »

So once u pass hons maths,u get 25 leaving cert points for all courses:eek:
Thats the most idiotic system iv ever heard of.What about those who get an A1 compared to a D3??

Its pretty awful, you'd understand them having to raise the points of a D3, D2 and D1 (45, 50, 55) up higher than an ordinary level A1 (60), but it should be a certain percentage of what you get above that, like what UL does.

Biologic

Might warrant a separate thread guys. That's an entire page on the LC in a thread on the disadvantages of medicine.

kellogscoffey

Posting this in the hope that some of the naysayers will get an email notification and rush to my aid :P

Basically, seeing as the HSE is a loada rubbish, would there be any advantages studying in the UK instead and growing up in the NHS, or does where you study matter at all at all at all?