The Rafa Thread (READ THE OP CAREFULLY)

Iago

Right, with the exception of the whole Portsmouth saga the issues surrounding Rafa Benitez are probably the biggest talking point of the EPL season so far. It's obvious that a place is needed to discuss these issues, and also abundantly clear that if it's not managed carefully the forum has the potential to go into meltdown.

The solution, for now, is this thread. All discussion of Rafas current and future issues or movements is to be kept to this thread. Note that while obviously linked to Liverpool, this thread is not going to be a bashing exercise for either the club or Rafa himself.

As this is such a contentious topic moderation is going to be very strict so there are some ground rules

The first rule is simple, any perceived wumming or trolling of this thread carries a minimum 1 week ban at the discretion of the moderators. Debate the points, without being abusive or trolling and there won't be any issues.

The second rule is that this is a discussion about Rafa, posts that go off-topic will be deleted and may lead to a ban.

The third rule is that while discussions of Liverpools results and progress are inevitable any posts that are simply taking pot-shots without adding to the debate will be deleted and the poster will likely face a ban from the forum

Ignorance of the above rules will not be an excuse, don't expect any sympathy for a "I didn't read the OP" defence.


So to start it off here's my opinion. Up to the start of this season I thought Rafa had done a fantastic job at Liverpool, in a lot of ways he had them punching above their weight in relation to their ability to spend and the overall strength of their squad. I did have, and continue to have, reservations about his dealings in the transfer market and I think it's a black mark against his overall ability. That being said he has also had some considerable success with some of his buys and picked up trophies along the way.

I've also been of the opinion that realistically for Liverpool at the moment, however hard it may be to stomach, a top 4 finish, decent run in the champions and maybe a domestic cup is about the height of their realistic ambitions in any given season as things stand. Obviously you would want development from the team over time and be in a position where small tweaks would allow consistent challenging for major honours across all competitions. Liverpool aren't there yet, but they should be getting there given the time Rafa has had to make the squad and club his own.

Looking at Liverpools results this season though it's clear that something has gone very wrong. While the players must take some significant blame, it's clear that either they don't want to play for Rafa anymore, or he has lost the ability to motivate them out of a bad patch of form. I think his position is fast becoming untenable and if it wasn't for the 5 year contract he signed he would have been sacked already. That obviously leads to the question "at what point does the £15-£20m hit become palatable?" If results and performances continue as they are a top 4 finish could be out of reach inside the next 4-6 weeks. At that point it could be a double hit in terms of cost with a pay-off to Rafa and the cost of missed qualification for the Champions League.

I believe the Liverpool squad is more than good enough to finish in the top 4,so much so that I backed them in a number of accumulators to finish in the top 3 before the season started! Their performance and attitude to date belies that statement though and they are in danger of getting out of touch if they don't improve rapidly. This will obviously be difficult given the new injury problems, but that doesn't change the need for vast improvement.

So, I'll open it to the floor. Is Rafa the man to turn the season around, or should he fall on his sword for the greater good of the club, and if he won't fall on his sword should Liverpool take the hit on the pay-off before a Top 4 finish isn't possible?

SlickRic

i just don't trust him anymore with the team.

i don't know anyone, apart from maybe Hiddink, who would do a better job, short term until the end of the season though.

bottom line.

Racing Flat

I think the latest injuries might be the straw that breaks the camel's back. Unfortunately. I'll be very sad to see him go. Granted things haven't gone well this year, but I'd love to see us winning a League with him there. A bit like you'd rather win a local Cup with your own friends rather than the manager bringing ringers in. For that reason I'd stick with him, but that's maybe just sentimentality. Fingers crossed it will all come good Rafa.

kida

its a catch 22 situation, they can't afford to sack him and conversely they can't afford not to sack him, losing 4th would have disatrous consequences.

IMO he has lost the dressing room and the players are not playing for him, why this has happened I don't know, but it needs to be fixed. Murmuring of discontent with Gerrard. If he can't turn around the dressing room IMO he has to go.

The next 2 games are crucial, if they don't win both then I think they can kiss goodbye to 4th. Minimum of 4 points needed. If this was not got then there woulld still be time to bring in a new manager and allow him to make a few loan signings before the end of Jan.

Fuhrer

kida wrote: »

its a catch 22 situation, they can't afford to sack him and conversely they can't afford not to sack him, losing 4th would have disatrous consequences.

IMO he has lost the dressing room and the players are not playing for him, why this has happened I don't know, but it needs to be fixed. Murmuring of discontent with Gerrard. If he can't turn around the dressing room IMO he has to go.

Why cant they afford to sack him?

Presumably the loss of finishing outside the top 4 would be far greater then any compensation package they would have to pay him.

SlickRic

kida wrote: »

Murmuring of discontent with Gerrard. If he can't turn around the dressing room IMO he has to go.

this is the problem.

Gerrard's not playing, and looks unhappy. he's showing very little fight or leadership, and he doesn't seem to trust many players around him, having a moan at them quite frequently; not in a gee-ing them up kind of way either. they all look depressed rather than desperate to turn it round.

as you say, if things keep on like this, we can't afford to sack Rafa or keep him.

jaykay74

I think he should be given the opportunity to get 4th spot. If he fails then he should go. not now.

ctrl-alt-delete

If Liverpool fail to finish in the top 4 this season well then Rafa and all those under his leadership have failed. For a club of Liverpools stature that is the equivalent of getting relegated.

I think he has done a great job at Liverpool so far, but this season has seen an unvbelievable fall in form, if someone had suggested such a season in the build up on a thread anywhere they would have been castrated and banned!

Im not so sure on the whole money debate, Like the OP i believe Rafa has not been great in the transfer market. Obviously Torres has been sensational and it will go down as one of the greatest Premier League signings for any club.

The whole Barry/Keane thing cast a huge shadow for me over the clubs transfer dealings, i cannot for the life of me understand why Keane was signed when that money could have bought Barry.

If Liverpool had have made 3 or 4 signings similar to the Torres one, considering the money they may have spent on a lot of players that are simply not good enough, things could have been so different.

Everything is a guess though, and nobody knows how it is going to pan out, i don't believe he will be sacked, maybe mutual termination could happen for the good of the club, but if they pull through this season and finish top 4 i see no reason why Rafa can't take them on into next season.

ctrl-alt-delete

Fuhrer wrote: »

Why cant they afford to sack him?

Presumably the loss of finishing outside the top 4 would be far greater then any compensation package they would have to pay him.

What if both happen though? If they sacked him today say, and if nothing was turned around by the time they replaced him, and after that if the new manager failed to make it into the top four you have the burden of both.

It is a very tricky one, i myself like the OP think he would have been gone now but for that extension.

kida

Fuhrer wrote: »

Why cant they afford to sack him?

Presumably the loss of finishing outside the top 4 would be far greater then any compensation package they would have to pay him.

Would impact transfer funds, a lot of the backroom staff are his so its not just him to go. Financially they need him to turn it around, any other outcome costs big money.

Fuhrer

kida wrote: »

Would impact transfer funds, a lot of the backroom staff are his so its not just him to go. Financially they need him to turn it around, any other outcome costs big money.

Any manager coming in would likely bring in his own backroom staff anyway.

kippy

Shamlessly copied from a post in the LFC thread:

Whats gone wrong compared to last year?

1. Alonso being replaced by a player who was injured for the first half of the season causing.....
2. More game time for players of a poorer quality.
3. Injuries to key players in September. Namely in defense, hadnt a settled defence ( and still havent at the moment as far as I know)
4. A couple of pieces of bad luck.
5. Rafas squad depth and quality finally being shown up for its poorness despite five years at the club.
6. A few players not performing, a few key players at that.
7. Severly restrictive tactics althought this is probably because of personnel available. See 1 2 and 3.
8. A complete loss of confidence and hope in the club, not just the players but even the backroom staff seem resigned to the fact that this is going to be a disaster of a season.

Let not forget the behind the scenes financial issues as well.

It going to be a tough couple of seasons for Liverpool on and off the pitch, but lets hope (as a neutral) that the success will be all the more sweeter when it does arrive.

They are too big a club to completely implode, but they need new owners (back to PLC), new management and a new stadium.



In my opinion Rafa up till this season done okay with Liverpool however his tactics seem a bit too rigid for a 38 game season.

I do think that a new manager at this stage of the season would be far better for the clubs chances of getting into the CL than if they kept Rafa. The players or the majority of them dont seem to care too much any more under him and there is defo agro behind the scenes from what subtle hints there are.

astrofool

The funniest thing is, with the other top 4 teams being so inconsistent, this chould really have been "next season" for Liverpool.

kida

Good piece from Oliver Kay - new take on things

In his turbulent first season as Liverpool manager, Rafael Benítez used to experience what those around him would call “black Mondays”. They were the days when he would arrive at work looking agitated, having barely slept since a bad result on the Saturday, and go home in much the same mood, having seen little on the training ground to raise his spirits.

They were the days that were supposed to have been consigned to the past, but in his sixth season at Anfield, darkness has engulfed Benítez and Liverpool. Wednesday’s pitiful FA Cup third-round elimination at home to Reading, 21st in the Coca-Cola Championship, appeared to represent rock bottom, but if there is one thing that this season has taught Liverpool’s supporters, players and most certainly their manager, it is that the abyss they have entered seems to be bottomless.

These are dark times for Liverpool and Benítez. Whenever it seems there is light at the end of the tunnel, it turns out to be the headlights of an approaching juggernaut. Yesterday’s bulletin on the injuries to Steven Gerrard and Fernando Torres, ruled out of action for a fortnight and six weeks respectively, was typical of their season — not least because it was an accident waiting to happen, given previous prognoses — and typical of the manner in which the foundations of the team have crumbled over the course of the campaign.

The Benítez regime has begun to look doomed: doomed in the sense of persistent misfortune, which should have been guarded against, and doomed in that it is becoming hard to see any way out of this predicament. There have been new dawns in recent months, most notably the victories over Manchester United and Everton in the Barclays Premier League, but they have proved to be false. The days of being permanently one defeat from crisis are remembered with misty-eyed fondness; Liverpool have been on the critical list for some time.
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The worst thing about Liverpool at present — and it is possibly the worst thing that you can say about any team — is that they seem to have lost all faith, all hope, all spirit. The sense of belief that propelled them on a magnificent run last spring, when they thrashed Manchester United and Real Madrid during a two-month sequence that took them to within touching distance of that elusive Premier League title, has been replaced by a sense of gloom. They look like a team that have begun to fear the worst.

Benítez has many qualities as a manager — far more than his detractors will acknowledge — but he is not the man you would choose to drag a team out of the grip of a full-scale psychological crisis, which this has become. He has encountered such depressions on more occasions than he would like to recall during his tenure on Merseyside — even last season, before that surge towards the finishing line, where they were pipped by United — but never this deep or as sustained.

The mention of United is apposite. Sir Alex Ferguson’s team, with the memories of countless title triumphs to draw on, do not endure periods such as this. Their miserable runs might last weeks, but never months. Their defeats are shrugged off as they prepare to give their next opponents the backlash. Liverpool, the failures of the past two decades playing on the minds of even their newest signings, have no such backlash mechanism. Defeats knock the stuffing out of Liverpool; anxiety overcomes them.

One Liverpool player observed in a private conversation two seasons ago that a team unbeaten in the Premier League until early December suddenly lost all belief after an ignominious 3-1 defeat away to Reading. The realisation had come that they were not unbeatable and not, in all likelihood, title challengers. It hit them harder than they could have imagined. A few weeks after that, another player suggested that the spirit at the training ground had become so bad that “the place needs fumigating”.

The stale smell of depression was certainly not in evidence towards the end of last season, when Liverpool finished with a commendable total of 86 points, but, again, the failure hit the players hard. So did the loss of Xabi Alonso to Real Madrid — Gerrard said it left him “devastated” — and, as it became clear that Benítez would not be given the financial backing to strengthen his squad, depression set in again.

By the time they lost 3-0 to Espanyol in a pre-season friendly in August, with the unsettled Javier Mascherano agitating to follow Alonso to Spain, the mood had become unaccountably bleak once more.

There are 101 reasons why this season has been a calamity for Liverpool. The sale of Alonso is a factor, as have been the persistent injuries that have restricted Torres to flurries of brilliance and left Gerrard in pain almost from the start. But just about all the other factors — the litany of defensive errors late in games, the lack of flair, the loss of form of players such as Martin Skrtel and Dirk Kuyt — have their roots in that deep-seated psychological malaise.

If it were a simple technical or tactical issue, Benítez would be quick to identify and resolve it. But as the darkness takes hold over Anfield — and over Melwood, the training ground — the worry among even his most ardent supporters is that, for the first time, he is running out of answers.

gucci

Plain ultra simplistic view, for the last 4-5 seasons regardless of injuries and who played and what quality or alleged quality they were, the team were never beaten and never lay down, and never stopped playing til the very end.

Granted there were occasions where they fell down flat and didn't play, but this was maybe 2-3 times a season, which happens to every team.

However this season, with the exception of the Man United match, I don't think the players have given it their all for a full 90-95 mins. Sloppiness, effortless, casualness, and lack of inspiration when its been needed most.

Ultimately something has changed when the same core players that were never beaten, now stroll through games almost lethargically. If they wanted to play to save Rafa, they have had umpteen opportunities this season, but they are not all pulling in the one direction.

I dont think sacking Rafa now is necessarily the best choice, but regardless of if he stays or goes, the position in the top 4 is gone in my opinion. Its too flat for Rafa to turn it around, and it would be unfair on any new manager to expect them to turn it around in such a short space of time.

I suspect the most thing that is keeping Rafa from being shown the door, is not the pay off, but the fact a viable replacement of the level required is just not available.

Spiritoftheseventies

Seems to growing evidence of growing evidence of a a fall out between rafa and gerrard see last par in link below.
Have not seen much from Stevie G in terms of interviews so maybe its time for Gerrard to come out and clear up any confusion about his relationship with Rafa.

200motels

ctrl-alt-delete wrote: »

If Liverpool fail to finish in the top 4 this season well then Rafa and all those under his leadership have failed. For a club of Liverpools stature that is the equivalent of getting relegated.

I think he has done a great job at Liverpool so far, but this season has seen an unvbelievable fall in form, if someone had suggested such a season in the build up on a thread anywhere they would have been castrated and banned!

Im not so sure on the whole money debate, Like the OP i believe Rafa has not been great in the transfer market. Obviously Torres has been sensational and it will go down as one of the greatest Premier League signings for any club.

The whole Barry/Keane thing cast a huge shadow for me over the clubs transfer dealings, i cannot for the life of me understand why Keane was signed when that money could have bought Barry.

If Liverpool had have made 3 or 4 signings similar to the Torres one, considering the money they may have spent on a lot of players that are simply not good enough, things could have been so different.

Everything is a guess though, and nobody knows how it is going to pan out, i don't believe he will be sacked, maybe mutual termination could happen for the good of the club, but if they pull through this season and finish top 4 i see no reason why Rafa can't take them on into next season.

I don't think he's done a great job, a good job maybe, but he's no better than Houllier in the overall scheme of things, his style of football is boring to say the least, he's more worried about the opposition than letting the opposition worry about us, his interviews after games are bordering on crazy, blaming everyone but himself, it's simple the sooner he's gone the better, and take most of the dross he's bought with him.

ziggy

This post has been deleted.

Spiritoftheseventies

ziggy wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Well its seems Gerrard may be running through brick walls if he was made to play with that injury. What I am picking up from that alleged bust up at half time is that there was a question from some camp over the extent of Gerrards hamstring.

flanzer

People say that we cn't afford to get rid of Rafa. If results keep going poorly, the fans will run him out of town and he'll be forced to resign I'm afraid

Spiritoftheseventies

flanzer wrote: »

People say that we cn't afford to get rid of Rafa. If results keep going poorly, the fans will run him out of town and he'll be forced to resign I'm afraid

Dont think it will ever come down to fans running him out of town. He has done exceptionally well to bring this club to being a top four outfit and his record in champions league for most part has been terrific. Think fans were booing the players on Wednesday not Rafa. Players do the talking on the pitch. They are on good wages. Time for them to realize that they are being rewarded for an honour that most people would kill for. To put on a red shirt would be most school kids dream.

ziggy

This post has been deleted.

leninbenjamin

Here's my opinion of Rafa:

• An excellent, if somewhat conservative tactician.
• An decent motivator but someone whose distance from the players let's him down.
• Weak in the transfer market.

All in all, I think Rafa's a great coach but he's not someone suitable for the 'total control' management paradigm of England. In Spain he won the league with a team that was bought for him, In England his best success has come in the cups where's he's get the best out of limited resources, but his purchases have let him down over the season. At the end of the day the Liverpool squad has the same weaknesses today as it had when he came into the job.

However, as i said in the other thread, the current situation has nothing to do with his ability, it's all about relationships. Signs are for over 2 years now that he doesn't get on with the owners. Whatever you think of the yanks, they are the owners, they are Rafa's boss and Rafa has to fall in line with them. All the best manager's recognise and accept this. Rafa afaik didn't get on with the owner of Valencia at the time, and he doesn't get on with the American's. I know it's weak circumstancial evidence at best, but it definitely raises the possibility of Rafa being the weak point, something I think is reinforced by the lack of commitment shown by the players.

At the end of the day, no matter who's side you are on, the situation is untenable and there can only be one loser.

Mitch Connor

bayviewclose wrote: »

Dont think it will ever come down to fans running him out of town. He has done exceptionally well to bring this club to being a top four outfit and his record in champions league for most part has been terrific. Think fans were booing the players on Wednesday not Rafa. Players do the talking on the pitch. They are on good wages. Time for them to realize that they are being rewarded for an honour that most people would kill for. To put on a red shirt would be most school kids dream.

Bring this club to being a top 4 outfit?

2003/04 - 4th
2002/03 - 5th by 3 points, lost out on final day after losing to chelsea.
2001/02 - 2nd
2000/01 - 3rd
1999/00 - 4th

Yeah - he really turned things around with making them a top 4 club. having not been one for all but 1 season in the previous 5. 2 in the previous 10.

Spiritoftheseventies

Mitch Connor wrote: »

Bring this club to being a top 4 outfit?

2003/04 - 4th
2002/03 - 5th by 3 points, lost out on final day after losing to chelsea.
2001/02 - 2nd
2000/01 - 3rd
1999/00 - 4th

Yeah - he really turned things around with making them a top 4 club. having not been one for all but 1 season in the previous 5. 2 in the previous 10.

Think if you followed pool you would know that the last two years with Houllier were bad. And our record in champions league under him was pretty poor. We have become much stronger under Rafa. Ask most pool fans and they will tell you that Rafa has been our best manager since Dalglish. Dont think anyone would dispute that.

Mitch Connor

bayviewclose wrote: »

Think if you followed pool you would know that the last two years with Houllier were bad. And our record in champions league under him was pretty poor. We have become much stronger under Rafa. Ask most pool fans and they will tell you that Rafa has been our best manager since Dalglish. Dont think anyone would dispute that.

I think if you read my post you would realise that only twice in the 10 seasons previous to Rafa taking over had Liverpool not finished in the top 4 places. To say Rafa has done "exceptionally well to bring this club to being a top four outfit" is balls. You are saying he has done exceptionally well in doing basically exactly what they had been doing for the previous 10 years. If Liverpool failed to finish top 4 this season, it would be twice in his 6 years they had failed to do so, WORSE than the record in the previous 10 years.

He has done very well with liverpool in Europe, but to say he has done exceptionally well to make them a top 4 side is just ignorant of the fact they were a top 4 side consistently before he arrived.

Y2J_MUFC

bayviewclose wrote: »

What I am picking up from that alleged bust up at half time is that there was a question from some camp over the extent of Gerrards hamstring.

Source?

Dublin_Gunner

Fuhrer wrote: »

Why cant they afford to sack him?

Presumably the loss of finishing outside the top 4 would be far greater then any compensation package they would have to pay him.

Its not only Rafa's pay off, but the contract fee for a new manager / staff also - without guarantee they'd do any better.

We cannot afford to sack him right now.

While I do agree that a lot of this blame MUST be down to the manager / backroon staff, I'll happily put 80% of the blame on the players.

They just are not performing like they did last year. Nearly every player looks like a completely different player this year.

Is this due to training? Fitness? Lack of enthusiasm? I don't know, but performances on the pitch are down to the players, if its their fitness, its down to the coaches, motivation is down to the manager/players.

I just don't know. Its far to easy to pin the blame on one person / entity, when in truth, its probably a combination of all of the above.

leninbenjamin

Dublin_Gunner wrote: »

I just don't know. Its far to easy to pin the blame on one person / entity, when in truth, its probably a combination of all of the above.

At the end of the day you're talking about people signed by Rafa though. It's his job to hire/fire the club, the players, the backroom staff.

mailblaney

leninbenjamin wrote: »

Here's my opinion of Rafa:

• An excellent, if somewhat conservative tactician.
• An decent motivator but someone whose distance from the players let's him down.
• Weak in the transfer market.

All in all, I think Rafa's a great coach but he's not someone suitable for the 'total control' management paradigm of England. In Spain he won the league with a team that was bought for him, In England his best success has come in the cups where's he's get the best out of limited resources, but his purchases have let him down over the season. At the end of the day the Liverpool squad has the same weaknesses today as it had when he came into the job.

However, as i said in the other thread, the current situation has nothing to do with his ability, it's all about relationships. Signs are for over 2 years now that he doesn't get on with the owners. Whatever you think of the yanks, they are the owners, they are Rafa's boss and Rafa has to fall in line with them. All the best manager's recognise and accept this. Rafa afaik didn't get on with the owner of Valencia at the time, and he doesn't get on with the American's. I know it's weak circumstancial evidence at best, but it definitely raises the possibility of Rafa being the weak point, something I think is reinforced by the lack of commitment shown by the players.

At the end of the day, no matter who's side you are on, the situation is untenable and there can only be one loser.

I think this point can't be underestimated. Many players have came out and mentioned this about rafa. This is his style of managment. Some might say that this was Houllier's strong point. He had an ability to put his arm around someone's shoulder, tell them good things and thereby motivate them. Rafa has no personal connect with the players. When everything was going well on the pitch last year, this wasn't evident and didn't really matter. But when the chips are down, players need to be motivated. Rafa can no longer get the best out of his players. Man management is such an important aspect of management, whether its in the business world or in the football world. I still think he's a master tactician, but I don't think that will help Liverpool out of this.

Dublin_Gunner

leninbenjamin wrote: »

At the end of the day you're talking about people signed by Rafa though. It's his job to hire/fire the club, the players, the backroom staff.

Well I certainly was't trying to absolve him of all blame, but in fairness he hasn't had the funds to compete with the top clubs either....

leninbenjamin

Dublin_Gunner wrote: »

Well I certainly was't trying to absolve him of all blame, but in fairness he hasn't had the funds to compete with the top clubs either....

Tbh, this has very little to do with the current problems.

When it comes to the backroom staff, I believe he had no financial constraints firing and hiring?

When it comes to the squad he's had enough to sign nearly 100 players over his 5 year stint. He's averaged a net spend of between £15-20m (depending on who's figures you believe), It doesn't allow him to buy the league, but still that's not to be sniffed at tbh. He's not made the most out of his money. For example the two best full backs in the league cost less than what he's had to spend a year, Sagna cost £7m. Evra cost £5.5.

Finally, when he arrived at the club, LB, LW, RW and ST were the main problem positions. 5 years on they still are. That's a long time and a lot of money wasted to try and fix it. He's going nowhere with them.

TheSpecialOne

Dublin_Gunner wrote: »

Well I certainly was't trying to absolve him of all blame, but in fairness he hasn't had the funds to compete with the top clubs either....

As An Arsenal Fan who constantly hears this from Pool fans i have to say i think its a myth.This man has spend some ridiculous amounts of money Keane,Johnson,Babel,Lucas and Dossena for 7 million each.The blame Falls with Rafa but he got away with it because he blames Rick Parry but then once in full Control of Tranfers he spends 20 Million on an injured player who has so far looked inept in his games for Liverpool.Arsenal have spend Nothing compared to Liverpool yet they have always remained in the Top 4 and We have withnessed some Great European nights.The Difference is in the Managers and thats something Liverpool should Deal with sooner rather than later.

kida

Dublin_Gunner wrote: »

Well I certainly was't trying to absolve him of all blame, but in fairness he hasn't had the funds to compete with the top clubs either....

FFS don't start that again - please delete or edit that for the sake of this thread - its been debated many times - even has its own thread

Dublin_Gunner

kida wrote: »

FFS don't start that again - please delete or edit that for the sake of this thread - its been debated many times - even has its own thread

This thread is about Rafa, that post was about Rafa. leave the modding to the mods.

Spiritoftheseventies

Mitch Connor wrote: »

I think if you read my post you would realise that only twice in the 10 seasons previous to Rafa taking over had Liverpool not finished in the top 4 places. To say Rafa has done "exceptionally well to bring this club to being a top four outfit" is balls. You are saying he has done exceptionally well in doing basically exactly what they had been doing for the previous 10 years. If Liverpool failed to finish top 4 this season, it would be twice in his 6 years they had failed to do so, WORSE than the record in the previous 10 years.

He has done very well with liverpool in Europe, but to say he has done exceptionally well to make them a top 4 side is just ignorant of the fact they were a top 4 side consistently before he arrived.

They may have been top four material under Houllier initially but we were not doing well in Europe (bar the UEFA cup final). Again look at our record under Rafa in Europe. Two champions league finals and another semi final. Yeah I would Rafa to take us to the next level (and that isn't looking likely at the moment0 but again Ill say that when you combine our record in Europe along with top four finishes he has been our most successful manager since Dalglish

flanzer

bayviewclose wrote: »

They may have been top four material under Houllier initially but we were not doing well in Europe (bar the UEFA cup final). Again look at our record under Rafa in Europe. Two champions league finals and another semi final. Yeah I would Rafa to take us to the next level (and that isn't looking likely at the moment0 but again Ill say that when you combine our record in Europe along with top four finishes he has been our most successful manager since Dalglish

I posted this back in November in the Liverpool thread and I havent changed my mind. Rafa hasn't brought us on that far really and here's the evidence:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=63188117&postcount=10437

ROCKMAN

In my opinion . Rafa and more so the players are suffering a bit of backlash from last year,
Last season for the last few months the players put their heart and soul into the title race, They played some great football and showed passion and commitment every time they pull on the shirt. And when this effort was not rewarded with the title it must have hit them very hard , left them both physically and mentally drained. Now you add Alonso's departure ,lack of reinforcements and behind the scenes drama . And I think they started the season as a deflated team which has been reflected fairly quickly in their results .

deisedevil

bayviewclose wrote: »

They may have been top four material under Houllier initially but we were not doing well in Europe (bar the UEFA cup final). Again look at our record under Rafa in Europe. Two champions league finals and another semi final. Yeah I would Rafa to take us to the next level (and that isn't looking likely at the moment0 but again Ill say that when you combine our record in Europe along with top four finishes he has been our most successful manager since Dalglish

Are you not understanding what Mitch has been saying or are you deliberatly dodging it?

You stated that Rafa had done exceptionally well to turn Pool into a top four team. Mitch has stated that Pool were already a top four team for 8 of the ten seasons before rafa took over, so no change there.

So you think he has done exceptionally well in the EPL to do the exact same as his predeccessor.

Y2J_MUFC

bayviewclose wrote: »

What I am picking up from that alleged bust up at half time is that there was a question from some camp over the extent of Gerrards hamstring.

Y2J_MUFC wrote: »

Source?

bayview, can i take it that you have no reliable source for that, and the above is just idle speculation?

Mitch Connor

deisedevil wrote: »

Are you not understanding what Mitch has been saying or are you deliberatly dodging it?

You stated that Rafa had done exceptionally well to turn Pool into a top four team. Mitch has stated that Pool were already a top four team for 8 of the ten seasons before rafa took over, so no change there.

So you think he has done exceptionally well in the EPL to do the exact same as his predeccessor.

Dodging it, or he has created a loophole in what he said that means he is right:D

everdead.ie

Even if the board sacked Rafa they could never attract or pay a top quality replacement.
No one will come in when they have no Transfer Budget and Can't make the team there own realistically Sami Lee could end up taking over untill you got Investment in to attract a better calibre of Manager.

I think That Its been his Transfer Dealings which have let him down most.
For instance arbelo should of been kept at all costs and they could of brought in Kranjcar a goal scoring midfielder that can play anywhere across the midfield.
Rafa on SSn with a new list of facts by the way

Roar

just caught sky sports news, did he whip out another "facht" sheet?

in fairness he's not reacting to the leading questions of the journo, he's dealign with the questions very well I think

SlickRic

bayviewclose wrote: »

They may have been top four material under Houllier initially but we were not doing well in Europe (bar the UEFA cup final). Again look at our record under Rafa in Europe. Two champions league finals and another semi final. Yeah I would Rafa to take us to the next level (and that isn't looking likely at the moment0 but again Ill say that when you combine our record in Europe along with top four finishes he has been our most successful manager since Dalglish

i'm sorry bayview, i hate saying this to well meaning liverpool supporters.

but you're talking through your a*se and ignoring simply put questions.

domestically, there is patently not the marked improvement in position in the league. points totals are higher, so he has that in his favour and well done to him. but there is an argument to be made that rafa hasn't done brilliantly looking at the overall picture.

he had us consistent, and after a bad year under houllier (we forget the precious pretty decent years domestically under him) he steadied us and had us steadily improve over his 5 years domestically. but the overall picture in terms of the league is quite similar to Houllier. our players have been generally of better quality around the park under rafa, but the respective league positions aren't entirely different. that is what was put to you.

i do think he's a better manager than houllier, and i greatly admire his European record for us. it's awesome, and i'm thankful. but that's not what was put to you. we're talking domestically, which is our Holy Grail.

Mitch Connor

Roar wrote: »

just caught sky sports news, did he whip out another "facht" sheet?

in fairness he's not reacting to the leading questions of the journo, he's dealign with the questions very well I think

what are his facts this time?

Roar

Mitch Connor wrote: »

what are his facts this time?

Dunno, just turned it on as he put them away!

SlickRic

Roar wrote: »

just caught sky sports news, did he whip out another "facht" sheet?

in fairness he's not reacting to the leading questions of the journo, he's dealign with the questions very well I think

the media are being very unfair to him, as badly as he generally handles them, they really won't just leave it.

they know his stance, but ask him over and over anyway the same things.

everdead.ie

Roar wrote: »

just caught sky sports news, did he whip out another "facht" sheet?

in fairness he's not reacting to the leading questions of the journo, he's dealign with the questions very well I think

Ya he did
Said Fact we aren't playing well, we feel bad for the fans
Fact football changes instantly and He hoped to start the change in the next match
Fact they knew what was wrong and how to fix it

Roar

SlickRic wrote: »

the media are being very unfair to him, as badly as he generally handles them, they really won't just leave it.

they know his stance, but ask him over and over anyway the same things.

and it's to his tremendous credit that he never reacts to them IMO

Chardee MacDennis

200motels wrote: »

I don't think he's done a great job, a good job maybe, but he's no better than Houllier in the overall scheme of things, his style of football is boring to say the least, he's more worried about the opposition than letting the opposition worry about us, his interviews after games are bordering on crazy, blaming everyone but himself, it's simple the sooner he's gone the better, and take most of the dross he's bought with him.

this shows you know nothing about what rafa has done for the club, and the state of the club when houllier left and how it is now. how can you comment when you don't even know the facts?

Jimmyboss

Benitez is really only holding onto his job by virtue of his European record, but let's have a look at that.......2005 Champions League Final, Milan going in at half time 3-0 up, thinking game over, didn't come out to play in the second half, fair enough Liverpool took advantage, but let's be fair, there was a huge amount of luck involved.
This is a manager who deemed Traore and Kewell good enough to start the game???:rolleyes:

Admittedly unlucky in the next final, but this in a period when English clubs were in the ascendancy in Europe, Serie A having gone into decline, and Barca not yet the finished article.

Perhaps his style of man-management is conducive to the situation Liverpool find themselves in.......evidenced by Gerrard's and Carragher's comments in their books, and Alonso's quote that he wouldn't be rushing to invite Benitez to his wedding.
His reign does seem to echo that of Houllier's, success early on, a '5-year plan' slowly disintegrating into the downward spiral that Liverpool are now in - allied to his calamitous transfer record, and lack of fresh talent through the Academy, it does seem that the writing is finally on the wall.