Okay so a bit of a tutorial

chordtype

This is an awesome thread. I've just started using Logic and this has been really helpful.

ICN

Neurojazz wrote: »

...With delays... a piece of information i forgot... is that you can adjust the delayed signal in a few ways to avoid phasing, modulation of the pitch slightly and push or pull the timing a few ms so that phasing is avoided.

So are you saying - for example - delay one channel with a delay insert & then to avoid phasing add or subtract a few ms with the channel delay?

Could you recommend some ballpark delay settings for use on these toms?

Is it just a case of adding a tiny % of wet to the dry signal?

You're getting quizzed out of it from all sides Neuro!

Neurojazz

ICN wrote: »

So are you saying - for example - delay one channel with a delay insert & then to avoid phasing add or subtract a few ms with the channel delay?

Could you recommend some ballpark delay settings for use on these toms?

Is it just a case of adding a tiny % of wet to the dry signal?

You're getting quizzed out of it from all sides Neuro!

There are too many ways to do this really, it's going to be down to taste - my personal settings for any ping-pong / stereo delay would be either 1/8th dotted (or 1/8th D) one side and 1/4 or 1/8 the other side with hardly any feedback - if phasing becomes an issue then you'd have to manually work the settings and just add or subtract ms until is sounds ok...

BUT, there are so many ways you can mess with effects (i've spent 20 years solid on the subject - way to much time) - experimentation is the key after learning the basics pretty much...

for toms... here's an example... make a send a delay as per the settings above... make sure the mix is 100% so is 'wet' and then put a plate reverb over it at 100% mix then slide that fader up with your original dry source... then try different things over the delay.

ICN

Neurojazz wrote: »

There are too many ways to do this really, it's going to be down to taste - my personal settings for any ping-pong / stereo delay would be either 1/8th dotted (or 1/8th D) one side and 1/4 or 1/8 the other side with hardly any feedback - if phasing becomes an issue then you'd have to manually work the settings and just add or subtract ms until is sounds ok...

BUT, there are so many ways you can mess with effects (i've spent 20 years solid on the subject - way to much time) - experimentation is the key after learning the basics pretty much...

for toms... here's an example... make a send a delay as per the settings above... make sure the mix is 100% so is 'wet' and then put a plate reverb over it at 100% mix then slide that fader up with your original dry source... then try different things over the delay.

So - A single track of toms - send a bit to a delay & reverb. Would you pan the toms a bit to one side & the delay to the other - or have the toms as they are with the delay adding the extra width?

Should the delay send be getting compressed as well?


I know it sounds cool to sidechain a reverb for a special effect.. but D'Toms probably are just going to get a subtle treatment if any..

If you were to use the Logic preset channel strips, they come with compressors before or after the fx.. be interested to hear what you think?

seannash

Neurojazz wrote: »

Delay happens after the sound, whereas to duplicate makes the sound essentially mono.... in 'normal' band music you could have 2 different guitar performers playing the same parts and pan those (as they would be slightly different sounds) - but to put identical sounds left and right will just make it sound louder and become a mono signal if i remember correctly.

With delays... a piece of information i forgot... is that you can adjust the delayed signal in a few ways to avoid phasing, modulation of the pitch slightly and push or pull the timing a few ms so that phasing is avoided.

Depends on the situation and sound though... this is where you end up with 857389457348957 ways of getting around problems... sticking flangers on the delayed effect... etc.... ad-infinitum.

It's going to depend a lot on the sound and it's effect on the others around it.

good to know man,cheers.i guess just putting a delay on the actual channel settings would suffice instead of using an effect.Just so they hit at different times.

Pic:

gsparx

You can always duplicate, pan one extreme left and one extreme right and shift one of them forward/ backward a few ticks/ samples.
This way the sound hits each ear at a different time, essentially the same as a delay.
The benefit to this is you can then edit one of them for a bit of added variation.
Another way of doing it is duplicate, spread them and have them play at the same time with different eq (or other effect) on each. This also separates because your ear detects the differences in the sound.
The best results might be a combination of the two above methods.

krd

Sean, I liked the track. Though you should use a lighter kick on the first section. Or at least the first 8 bars. If a dj is trying to mix the track, having an outro kick overlapping a strong kick on the intro is not going to sound right.

Also it just sounds good to have as slight weak kick at the start, then have a heavier one come in.

splitrmx

Good thread. Seannash, maybe you could just zip the track folder in Logic and post it up, so other people with Logic could just import it without downloading all the bits separately.

seannash

splitrmx wrote: »

Good thread. Seannash, maybe you could just zip the track folder in Logic and post it up, so other people with Logic could just import it without downloading all the bits separately.

i just figured that most people wont have the exact same synths/effects as me and so wont get all the parts.
ill throw it up regardless and see if its compatible for some people

seannash

krd wrote: »

Sean, I liked the track. Though you should use a lighter kick on the first section. Or at least the first 8 bars. If a dj is trying to mix the track, having an outro kick overlapping a strong kick on the intro is not going to sound right.

Also it just sounds good to have as slight weak kick at the start, then have a heavier one come in.

cheers dude.
to be honest ive never heard of using a different kick in the begining of a track then switching it to a bigger sounding one.
i know some tracks do a cut on the kick in the begining and then introduce it fully a bit into the intro(probably what you mean)

i normally just think about how i dj.i normally just eq out the bass end of the incoming track and do a swap at some point.i never have the two low ends of a track playing full together when i mix so ive never really had that problem.

krd

seannash wrote: »

cheers dude.
to be honest ive never heard of using a different kick in the begining of a track then switching it to a bigger sounding one.
i know some tracks do a cut on the kick in the begining and then introduce it fully a bit into the intro(probably what you mean)

i normally just think about how i dj.i normally just eq out the bass end of the incoming track and do a swap at some point.i never have the two low ends of a track playing full together when i mix so ive never really had that problem.

I have two friends who DJ - who had their gear set up at my house(not where I'm living now) - so I got to see them practice; an old skool vinyl jockey, who'll spend weeks practising and building up his set. Selecting the bits he wants, and knowing what he has to do, to get the eq right on bringing in the different parts, without sounding like a noob - or worse...A complete Dick. (It's pretty horrible when someone brings the bits in wrong on a high volume) - when he practices, he phucks up a lot. And really has to get it down, or he has to abandon his mixing strategy.

The other guy, is an MP3 maestro, with his pioneer MP3 decks. His main thing is minimal. He'll practice/build his set by getting tracks together that he likes and try playing them leading into each other. If he can't get it to work, he abandons the idea. (these people don't eq sh1t). Two fat bassy kicks, mixed on top of each other, coming through a PA, sounds really bad. So, the tracks have to smoothly flow into each other - otherwise your track is not on the set list...And is not coming in.

So, ideally, if you're working on a track. Take a commercial track you like. Overlap you're intro on it's outro. And it's outro on something else. It should be relatively smooth and seamless. If it blends well, it means it will probably blend well with anything you put it with. An MP3 maestro won't have difficulty mixing it.

The bass kick is central to most dance music. A problem with listening to it at low volumes is you don't have a feel for what it will feel like at a high volume. (sounds obvious - but it's a major factor - small changes in eq at a lower volume will make no difference - at a high volume, you really feel it). I've really noticed this with minimal - that the kick really changes over time.

Making slight changes to the kick over segments, has a really great effect. A sound I love, is a subtle change in the kick sound from one 8 bar verse to another.

A really important thing though - you may already know. For musical reasons. The first kick in the bar should be slightly louder than the rest - Something like a Roland 909 will automatically do this - but if you're using sample kicks you should do it yourself. Otherwise your kick will sound like IDM - and nobody dances to IDM.


Layered kicks can sound great at high volume - but a percussive kick on top of a bassy kick, not a bassy kick on top of a bassy kick. But some great stuff I've heard, has just been subtle variations of the kick over tunes with not much else going on.

seannash

krd wrote: »

I have two friends who DJ - who had their gear set up at my house(not where I'm living now) - so I got to see them practice; an old skool vinyl jockey, who'll spend weeks practising and building up his set. Selecting the bits he wants, and knowing what he has to do, to get the eq right on bringing in the different parts, without sounding like a noob - or worse...A complete Dick. (It's pretty horrible when someone brings the bits in wrong on a high volume) - when he practices, he phucks up a lot. And really has to get it down, or he has to abandon his mixing strategy.

The other guy, is an MP3 maestro, with his pioneer MP3 decks. His main thing is minimal. He'll practice/build his set by getting tracks together that he likes and try playing them leading into each other. If he can't get it to work, he abandons the idea. (these people don't eq sh1t). Two fat bassy kicks, mixed on top of each other, coming through a PA, sounds really bad. So, the tracks have to smoothly flow into each other - otherwise your track is not on the set list...And is not coming in.

So, ideally, if you're working on a track. Take a commercial track you like. Overlap you're intro on it's outro. And it's outro on something else. It should be relatively smooth and seamless. If it blends well, it means it will probably blend well with anything you put it with. An MP3 maestro won't have difficulty mixing it.

The bass kick is central to most dance music. A problem with listening to it at low volumes is you don't have a feel for what it will feel like at a high volume. (sounds obvious - but it's a major factor - small changes in eq at a lower volume will make no difference - at a high volume, you really feel it). I've really noticed this with minimal - that the kick really changes over time.

Making slight changes to the kick over segments, has a really great effect. A sound I love, is a subtle change in the kick sound from one 8 bar verse to another.

A really important thing though - you may already know. For musical reasons. The first kick in the bar should be slightly louder than the rest - Something like a Roland 909 will automatically do this - but if you're using sample kicks you should do it yourself. Otherwise your kick will sound like IDM - and nobody dances to IDM.


Layered kicks can sound great at high volume - but a percussive kick on top of a bassy kick, not a bassy kick on top of a bassy kick. But some great stuff I've heard, has just been subtle variations of the kick over tunes with not much else going on.

cool man,just to give my point of view some context.ive been djing for 10 years and suffice to say if someone cant deal with two kick drums they need a bit more practice.(not trying to sound like a dickhead.)
its kinda just a case of trimming the bass on the eq on the mixer.

of course every dj is different but i cant say ive had problems with kicks before.
But then again ive never really considered using a different kick. might try it out and see how i get on.

also be interested to hear other opinions on this and if this is common practice

seannash

krd wrote: »

A really important thing though - you may already know. For musical reasons. The first kick in the bar should be slightly louder than the rest - Something like a Roland 909 will automatically do this - but if you're using sample kicks you should do it yourself. Otherwise your kick will sound like IDM - and nobody dances to IDM.

ha ha,poor old IDM
interesting,i didnt actually know this.ive never heard of this to be honest.

Again id like to ask is this common.

jtsuited

never heard of it, and i've never noticed it. normally if the first kick of the bar seems louder it's because of the arrangement and then the mastering compression.

krd

seannash wrote: »

ha ha,poor old IDM
interesting,i didnt actually know this.ive never heard of this to be honest.

Again id like to ask is this common.

It is actually really common.

In music theory there's a general rule. That the first beat in a bar should be slightly louder than the rest. This is the same for a Strauss waltz, Irish ceil music, as for any other kind of music.

Sometimes it's more noticeable than other times.

So Roland on their TR 909 or the 808. Or any thing else they've ever made. The first beat - the downbeat is slightly louder than the rest. (well sometimes you have to figure it out for yourself )

Watch this guy build a pattern on a TR909 - you'll here the first kick is slightly louder than the rest of the kicks. This is the TR 909, not him.

krd

seannash wrote: »

cool man,just to give my point of view some context.ive been djing for 10 years and suffice to say if someone cant deal with two kick drums they need a bit more practice.(not trying to sound like a dickhead.)
its kinda just a case of trimming the bass on the eq on the mixer.

of course every dj is different but i cant say ive had problems with kicks before.
But then again ive never really considered using a different kick. might try it out and see how i get on.

also be interested to hear other opinions on this and if this is common practice

No, I know your point. Some DJs can do great stuff with eq'ing. And it used to be a necessary skill.

I just to mailed a friend to ask him, did he eq much stuff matching - and he says he does a little (I would say very little) - He's got Technics for vinyl and Pioneer for mp3. But maybe he doesn't need to eq or trim much, because the tracks he's using, don't crowd each other with the kick at the start or ends.

krd

krd wrote: »

It is actually really common.

In music theory there's a general rule. That the first beat in a bar should be slightly louder than the rest. This is the same for a Strauss waltz, Irish ceil music, as for any other kind of music.

Sometimes it's more noticeable than other times.

So Roland on their TR 909 or the 808. Or any thing else they've ever made. The first beat - the downbeat is slightly louder than the rest. (well sometimes you have to figure it out for yourself )

Watch this guy build a pattern on a TR909 - you'll here the first kick is slightly louder than the rest of the kicks. This is the TR 909, not him.

Something went wrong with that you tube post - here's the tr 909 link http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xbfemTj8Rqs