The Next Presidential Election

Liam Byrne

wicklowwonder wrote: »

You cannot and do not compare the man to a murderer!

I didn't, but if it suits your spin to claim that I did, then work away.

Mind you, your reaction just 100% confirmed what I was getting at; you CANNOT simply say "leave the past in the past". If you believed this you wouldn't object to the murderer.

wicklowwonder wrote: »

You agreed he could do alot of good so let him!

Actually, no, I didn't. So stop misrepresenting me. There's a huge difference between "doing good" and "could do a lot to right some of his wrongs" - which was actually your own phrase; and considering that Ahern doesn't accept the fact that he did wrong (he even joked on TV about signing blank cheques for Haughey, ffs) there's no way he could right those wrongs, let alone do actual good.

wicklowwonder wrote: »

Who would you rather see as president gerry adams or bertie ahern?

Neither. I'd emigrate.

wicklowwonder wrote: »

Every leader has given jobs to friends and i agree we have to stop this behaviour, draw a line under the past learn from our mistakes and move on.......

Why now ? Why not after Haughey ? Why not after Burke ? Why not after Lawlor ? Why does everything have to centre around forgiving FF their many, many, many corruptions and f-ups without saying "feck off into the doldrums until you've learnt your lesson, you corrupt shower of ....." ?

And who are you to say what I or anyone else disgusted by Ahern "should" do ? We're entitled to react to his corruption and monumental errors in whatever way we see fit, and it's no-one's fault but his.

wicklowwonder wrote: »

..... and i feel bertie could help us move on and regain prosperity and economic stability.

LMAO! He couldn't even maintain economic stability when the country was rolling in it, let alone create it from scratch!

Anyway, how do you propose that a president do this, considering it's primarily a non-political role ?

wicklowwonder wrote: »

Finally do not be so narrowminded to think other counties really care that much about Ireland. How many other nations even know about his financial investigations, when you mention his name people think immediately of the man who brought europe together to agree on a constitution, of a man who not only held his own but out performed alot of the world's biggest leaders. Every other country is doing everything they can to pull themselves out of recession we have a man who can help but we have people in the media and on boards like this who feel they know better because he hadnt a bank account when he was going through a rough period

Absolutely sob-story bull**** of the highest order! Those are not the reasons he disgusts us, and you know it.

Whether or not he had a bank account or was going through a rough patch is an irrelevant red herring. He bolloxed up an economy, told people who warned him to f**k off, signed blank cheques for Haughey,

wicklowwonder wrote: »

I know alot of people will not agree with me but this is my opinion.

Well at least you got one thing right! And you're perfectly entitled to your opinion, but please acknowledge all of the facts and stop trying to skim over the ones that you'd prefer to ignore in attempts to justify or give credence to your opinion.

Ahern may not* have done anything illegal, but he was dodgy, irresponsible, corrupt (at the very least in terms of nepotism); and while you could be right in that others have done similar things, the impact of Ahern's actions have crippled the country for years, so he'll obviously be judged more harshly.

Fairly and factually (by some of us at least), but harshly.

*Not necessarily my personal opinion/suspicion, but we'll let the tribunal come to its own conclusion based on the fact that he had 5 contradictory explanations

Red_Marauder

Laminations wrote: »

As for the president issue, Shane Ross would be an excellent candidate and its a terrible state of affairs when homophobes are not given warnings on here for their bile.

With you on both counts, I think Shane Ross would be a fine president.
But ever since itsonlywords gave us the images of people dancing merrily around the lawns of the Aras in silly fairy costumes, I must say I've been won over by the prospect.

It might be just what this country needs to get rid of some of the gloom. If we really must have a President, they might as well show us some benefit.

Laminations

Yeah i think an eccentric would be good for the presidency. Once its not the type of eccentric that laughably calls himself a socialist and mumbles his fanciful way through a tribunal.

alejandro1977

cm2000 wrote: »

Crowley would be in with a good shout. Having been in Europe all these years he will be somewhat insulated from the Fianna Fáil backlash. As well as this, people will be drawn to him for his life story, courage and general positive disposition.

I don't understand all the love for Crowley; he's done nothing in Europe except tend to his seat in the most parochial fashion, if memory serves me correctly he missed more votes than any other Irish MEP. He makes a point of not putting himself forward as a spokesman for people with disability (as is his right) - he wants to be judged on merit so therefore I don't understand why people want him to be president on the basis that he's a nice enough fella and is in a wheelchair. (I have never heard him confront the corruption/economic incompetence within FF either)

That said I'd vote for him before the preening loud mouth poser David Norris (and that was before he stood up for Cathal O Searcaigh).

Is it possible to pick someone who has actually achieved something in politics/life rather than a representative of a minority? John Water's phrase from the last Pres. Election comes to mind, when he described the political parties as trawling for a one legged vegetarian lesbian.


Given the courage he showed the last time the country was up sh1t creek economically, how about Alan Dukes ? - just throwing it out there. (though he does speak Irish fluently without the Michael D pretensions)

trapsagenius

alejandro1977 wrote: »

Given the courage he showed the last time the economy was up sh1t creek economically, how about Alan Dukes ? - just throwing it out there. (though he does speak Irish fluently without the Michael D pretensions)

Actually, that IS a good suggestion.He showed himself to be a great statesman as leader of FG, when he put country before party. I'd go for either him or Bertie (as i previously said).

Liam Byrne

alejandro1977 wrote: »

Given the courage he showed the last time the economy was up sh1t creek economically, how about Alan Dukes ? - just throwing it out

In the past, I might have agreed with this, but I saw one of the Oireachtas Report bank hearings and he seemed to defend the banks' position far too much for my liking.

That said, the presidency doesn't have any political function, so maybe the above wouldn't be an issue.

Sleepy

Dukes is an excellent suggestion imho. Would certainly get my vote.

alejandro1977

Liam Byrne wrote: »

In the past, I might have agreed with this, but I saw one of the Oireachtas Report bank hearings and he seemed to defend the banks' position far too much for my liking.

That said, the presidency doesn't have any political function, so maybe the above wouldn't be an issue.

I wasn't really watching that TBH.

I think he probably wouldn't be keen though, he seems like he has a low BS threshold; unlike Mary I and II who could (and did) literally waffle for Ireland.

Am I alone in feeling that both of them over stepped the boundaries of the role?
they seemed unable to stay within the steady/"behind the scene" role that (for example) Paddy Hillary carried out. (Large egos?)

wicklowwonder

Liam Byrne wrote: »

I didn't, but if it suits your spin to claim that I did, then work away.

Mind you, your reaction just 100% confirmed what I was getting at; you CANNOT simply say "leave the past in the past". If you believed this you wouldn't object to the murderer.



Actually, no, I didn't. So stop misrepresenting me. There's a huge difference between "doing good" and "could do a lot to right some of his wrongs" - which was actually your own phrase; and considering that Ahern doesn't accept the fact that he did wrong (he even joked on TV about signing blank cheques for Haughey, ffs) there's no way he could right those wrongs, let alone do actual good.



Neither. I'd emigrate.



Why now ? Why not after Haughey ? Why not after Burke ? Why not after Lawlor ? Why does everything have to centre around forgiving FF their many, many, many corruptions and f-ups without saying "feck off into the doldrums until you've learnt your lesson, you corrupt shower of ....." ?

And who are you to say what I or anyone else disgusted by Ahern "should" do ? We're entitled to react to his corruption and monumental errors in whatever way we see fit, and it's no-one's fault but his.



LMAO! He couldn't even maintain economic stability when the country was rolling in it, let alone create it from scratch!

Anyway, how do you propose that a president do this, considering it's primarily a non-political role ?



Absolutely sob-story bull**** of the highest order! Those are not the reasons he disgusts us, and you know it.

Whether or not he had a bank account or was going through a rough patch is an irrelevant red herring. He bolloxed up an economy, told people who warned him to f**k off, signed blank cheques for Haughey,



Well at least you got one thing right! And you're perfectly entitled to your opinion, but please acknowledge all of the facts and stop trying to skim over the ones that you'd prefer to ignore in attempts to justify or give credence to your opinion.

Ahern may not* have done anything illegal, but he was dodgy, irresponsible, corrupt (at the very least in terms of nepotism); and while you could be right in that others have done similar things, the impact of Ahern's actions have crippled the country for years, so he'll obviously be judged more harshly.

Fairly and factually (by some of us at least), but harshly.

*Not necessarily my personal opinion/suspicion, but we'll let the tribunal come to its own conclusion based on the fact that he had 5 contradictory explanations

Listen Liam you are reeling out all the same arguments about Bertie we have heard over and over again. I said in the context of this debate I feel he could help rebuild this country through his reputation abroad etc. that is my opinion you feel he wont fair enough there is no need to lecture to anyone on this thread about what bertie has and has not done or his failings etc. feel free to open a new thread to discuss this topic and we can debate it until night falls!! Also I agree bertie can not and will not be elected to any position of power until his has been cleared of any wrong doing but i suspect the tribunal to clear him of any wrong, now feel free to set up a thread to discuss bertie further. This thread is to discuss the likely outcome of the presidential election in 2011. Bertie name came you disagreed, point made move on….

In terms of your one relevant comment towards this debate you and alot others seem to be opting for the immigration card when given a choice between ahern and gerry adams, guys this could be what it comes down to, if bertie gets cleared, decides to run the only party likely to be able to afford to put a candidate in sinn Fein. Aer Lingus could see profit skyrocket in 2011...............

wicklowwonder

Laminations wrote: »

Well Bertie was educated in the London School of Economics..... oh wait

Exactly my point are these people we are talking about experienced enough or qualified enough to uphold the constitution?

Liam Byrne

wicklowwonder wrote: »

Listen Liam you are reeling out all the same arguments about Bertie we have heard over and over again.

Facts, rather than arguments, but point taken. I did notice that you didn't retract your misrepresentation, or admit your double-standards about forgetting what someone has done in the past.

wicklowwonder wrote: »

Also I agree bertie can not and will not be elected to any position of power until his has been cleared of any wrong doing but i suspect the tribunal to clear him of any wrong

Within its relevant terms of reference, maybe. But he has done wrong.

wicklowwonder wrote: »

In terms of your one relevant comment towards this debate you and alot others seem to be opting for the immigration card when given a choice between ahern and gerry adams, guys this could be what it comes down to, if bertie gets cleared, decides to run the only party likely to be able to afford to put a candidate in sinn Fein. Aer Lingus could see profit skyrocket in 2011

"One relevant comment" :rolleyes: I might have been repetitive, but EVERYTHING I said was relevant.

And nice scaremongering - "Bu-bu-but look who'll get in if you don't vote for Ahern".

It'll be a sad day for Ireland if the only two running are one who condones corruption and one who condones murder. Then again, maybe it'll reflect Ireland in 2010 perfectly.

FFS, I'll look into running for it myself if those are the only two going for it. Or maybe suggest Biggins, who talks a lot of sense on these boards.

wicklowwonder

Liam Byrne wrote: »

And nice scaremongering - "Bu-bu-but look who'll get in if you don't vote for Ahern".

It'll be a sad day for Ireland if the only two running are one who condones corruption and one who condones murder. Then again, maybe it'll reflect Ireland in 2010 perfectly.

FFS, I'll look into running for it myself if those are the only two going for it. Or maybe suggest Biggins, who talks a lot of sense on these boards.

The fact is Fine Gael, Labour, Greens will all have their eye on the upcoming General Election. Fine Gael know if they are lucky enough to get power and the economy turns they could be in power for the next decade, Labour the same, the Greens will have to invest every single penny they have to ensure they are not wiped off the Irish political playing field totally, that only leaves us with Fianna Fail and Sinn Fein.

Sinn Fein have said they will run a candidate, Fianna Fail will also run a candidate. Crowley will not the FF nomination I can guarantee that no, I can see the party voting in a man like Crowley they will look to someone closer to the power base of the party. Cowen might try get someone like Martin, Hanafin (for fear of a leadership row) or even Lenihen might fancy the job to help hm recuperate or else we come back to Bertie question (once the tribunal clears him of any wrong doing).

Sinn Fein will test the waters with Adams, don’t think they could run Mary Lou as she hasn’t the charisma or vote getting ability for the post as she has proven time and time again.

I really can see a straight two man contest between a FF candidate and Gerry Adams. All joking aside with you and Biggins becoming the Irish answer to Obama this is a very likely scenario.

At least we have an election not like the last time our highest office was up for grabs.

Could we see a General Election and a Presidential election on the same day? Now that could be very interesting

Shea O'Meara

I would feel ashamed (more so) if Ireland voted Bertie Ahearn in as the President. You need to be able to have some respect for the office holder. He is at best a very suspect and cagey individual, not of suitable character to represent my country.
Lenihan, any Lenihan would be another insult.

itsonlywords

Sleepy wrote: »

Dukes is an excellent suggestion imho. Would certainly get my vote.

John Hume would be a good choice also.

wicklowwonder

itsonlywords wrote: »

John Hume would be a good choice also.

did hume not turn the job down last time around due to health reasons? Would be a great choice and a fantastic face for ireland north and south!

Laminations

wicklowwonder wrote: »

Fine Gael know if they are lucky enough to get power and the economy turns they could be in power for the next decade

,..or else we come back to Bertie question (once the tribunal clears him of any wrong doing).

One of the above you belittle and ascribe to 'luck' while the other you proclam is a certainty with 'once'. Think you got them backwards.

On the plus side John Hume is a great suggestion someone else mentioned

wicklowwonder

Laminations wrote: »

One of the above you belittle and ascribe to 'luck' while the other you proclam is a certainty with 'once'. Think you got them backwards.

On the plus side John Hume is a great suggestion someone else mentioned

i quoted itsonlywords who suggested hume! Think he would be a candidate all parties bar sinn fein who i think will run someone can agree on. I do think fine gael will be lucky to gain power in next election, ff are on rise now and economy is hopefully going to start climbing, ff will take credit for leading us through down turn, turn tables on fg win election! I know it wont be that easy but could happen! Fg have been a disgrace in opposition should hold over 50% of popularity in polls but that is a topic for another thread!

Liam Byrne

wicklowwonder wrote: »

.......once if the tribunal clears him of any wrong doing

FYP.

And again, I have to remind you of the fact that the tribunal is one investigating specific "favours done in return for payments", and so is not an overall judgement on said individual's actions, character or suitability.

Red_Marauder

wicklowwonder wrote: »

ff will take credit for leading us through down turn

Yes that's true but I wonder how willing they will be to take credit for leading us into it.

Laminations

wicklowwonder wrote: »

i quoted itsonlywords who suggested hume! Think he would be a candidate all parties bar sinn fein who i think will run someone can agree on. I do think fine gael will be lucky to gain power in next election, ff are on rise now and economy is hopefully going to start climbing, ff will take credit for leading us through down turn, turn tables on fg win election! I know it wont be that easy but could happen! Fg have been a disgrace in opposition should hold over 50% of popularity in polls but that is a topic for another thread!

After all FF have done you still hope they'll win the next election? They're the ones who'll be lucky to win. You knock FG for not having over 50% of the electorate but with 25 odd percent of people like you who still want FF its easy to understand why they haven't jumped miles ahead. They may not deserve it but FF deserve to be miles behind

Liam Byrne

Red_Marauder wrote: »

Yes that's true but I wonder how willing they will be to take credit for leading us into it.

Ah now, Red_Marauder.......don't you know that that was "global influences" and besides, you can't judge people on "the past" (known in the real world as "their track record", but not in FF circles) :rolleyes:

Laminations

Answer me this- if i did a great job wiping sh!t off your face would you forgive me for dumping on it in the first place? Would you applaud my skill at cleaning up the mess?

walshb

Scrap the ****ing job.

No, seriously, we need someone that we all cam relate to, someone engaging, fun, exciting and articulate. Stay way from the boring politicians, jobs for the boys, failed politicians etc. They have been riding this gravy train for far too long.

I wonder if Roddy Molloy or the Bull or Bertie are in the hunt?

Me, I'd go with Jedward if they were only a bit older.

Red_Marauder

wicklowwonder wrote: »

if elected bertie could do alot to right some of his wrongs he commited while in power......... He could help rebuild our country through his reputation abroad!

Ben Dunne was on RTE Radio recently and he made the very valid point that, if someone takes your business to the very edge, and almost annhilates everything that has been built up over generations, and almost destroys everything you have put into that business - you don't hire them back.

You show them the door and be glad to be rid of them.

In Bertie Ahern's case I would have thought that was pretty much taken for granted.

jmayo

wicklowwonder wrote: »

Firstly my tax situation is none of your business but if you must know i still am paying tax to our government through renting out a house and holding a bank account and numerous other ways. Numerous people in ireland didnt have accounts no laws broken there. Its not against the law to carry cash. Ahern did explain to the best of his abilities the cash if the tribunal or a court of law proves otherwise i will be the first man to condone him trust me. Secondly ahern was not leader of the country when nama was introduced but you make feel annoyed and rightly so but you can not blame one man for the ills of this country! Do you feel he has ever done anything good? As far as going to far this is a debate about presidental election and you have turned it into your own personal "i hate bertie" thread. More candidates mentioned move on set up a thread about slaging ahern and you can continue your bashing there while we continue with the debate this thread was set up to talk about.

Why am I not surprised you are landlord.

Yeah numerous people didn't have bank accounts and probably a few still don't, but the minister of finance :eek:
Jeeze you must believe in fairies if you believe his explanations for his wads of cash.
First they didn't exist, then they were gifts, but then after consulting tax lawyer supremo they became digouts for tax loophole or was it the other way around.
Then the loan his girlfirend got only became a loan and was only repaid when it became public.
Oh best of all he won it on the nags.
It almost ranks up there with the dog ate me homework sir.

BTW why shouldn't I debate a man (could think of more apt descriptions) who quiet a few posters including yourself want to represent us as president.
And when we do raise his questionable past we are all meant to move quietly along and forget the past.


Oh and on topic of president, we don't need one since they cost too much and has been retirement home or reward for connected few.
Doesn't matter if we had some saint as president it won't matter a sh** to the economy except suck taxes and resources from places that could benefit people a lot more.

wicklowwonder wrote: »

i quoted itsonlywords who suggested hume! Think he would be a candidate all parties bar sinn fein who i think will run someone can agree on. I do think fine gael will be lucky to gain power in next election, ff are on rise now and economy is hopefully going to start climbing, ff will take credit for leading us through down turn, turn tables on fg win election! I know it wont be that easy but could happen! Fg have been a disgrace in opposition should hold over 50% of popularity in polls but that is a topic for another thread!

Jeeze of course they always take the creit for the good things but not little piddly things like huge mortgages round people's necks for their lifetimes, sh**e healthcare system, loss of jobs, spiralling crime, crap planning or completly wasting the huge shortterm windfalls they actually did create through getting their buddies rich.

So it is FG that are the disgrace and not ff. :rolleyes:
Classic.

anymore wrote: »

wicklowwonder produces a very powerful arguement for not allowing Irish citizens abroad to have postal votes for Irish elections.

anymore,
he got very annoyed when I suggested the same thing in post #62.

Once a soldier of dysentery always one, no matter if they are 10,000 miles away in a country where politicans actually resign or are fired for misdemanours that would be seen as par for the course in ff land.

anymore

Apologisies for repeating point already made.
Bertie Ahern has of course had very lucrative support from Irish people living abroad. Some of this support was of course examined at the Mahon Tribunal, notably the infamous Manchester dinner where the ludicrous question of whether a dinner was eaten or not was brought up by Ahern. .

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/hounded-by-the-lawyers-harried-by-the-media-1891563.html

There was the "dig out" money from a group of "friends", to pay the legal bills for his difficult separation settlement from his wife, Miriam.
He then revealed details of the Manchester dinner, the eight grand "whip-round", and Micheal Wall, the bus driver who "didn't eat the dinner".
This was followed by the strange deal where the very same bus driver sold a modest suburban home in the Beresford estate in Drumcondra to the Taoiseach.

Reading through the sections of the Mahon Tribunal dealing with Ahern, leaves no doubt as to whether Ahern is a suitable person to hold the office of President or not : his colleagues clearly gave theie opinion, when they forced him to resign as Taioseach. The people of .Dublin remphasised that decision when they refused to elect his brother to the Council.
Ahern is an embarassment to Fianna Fail !

Shea O'Meara

anymore wrote: »

Ahern is an embarassment to Fianna Fail !

As thief number 37 is to Ali Baba and the other 39?

Liam Byrne

wicklowwonder wrote: »

Ahern did explain to the best of his abilities the cash.....

5 completely contradictory explanations, if I remember correctly ?

If it were a few quid, then fair enough, but a year's salary ? I'm pretty sure I'd remember someone who gave me that!

wicklowwonder wrote: »

..... if the tribunal or a court of law proves otherwise i will be the first man to condone him trust me.

Truth or typo ?

hallelujajordan

jmayo wrote: »

anymore wrote:

wicklowwonder produces a very powerful arguement for not allowing Irish citizens abroad to have postal votes for Irish elections.

anymore,
he got very annoyed when I suggested the same thing in post #62.

Actually he didn't get annoyed at all . . he refused to be drawn by a silly off-topic comment. . . but he ought to have been.

The thing that frustrates me most about this forum at the moment is that it is a perfect reflection of Irish politics. Instead of coming up with real alternatives, debating real ideas or real solutions there is a group on here (much like the current opposition) who prefer to just throw sh*t at Fianna Fail and you are dragging every single thread in the same direction . . . culminating in making inane antidemocratic comments like this suggesting that those of us who support FF are somehow less entitled to a vote that the rest of you . . .

Enda Kenny is learning the hard way after the recent opinion poll results that the Irish public want something more than just an attack on FF . . .

Iwasfrozen

I'm still going for David Norris, the guy is great and we would be the first country in the world to have a gay President.