The Next Presidential Election

hallelujajordan

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

I'm still going for David Norris, the guy is great and we would be the first country in the world to have a gay President.

Looks like we might be the second. . .

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Buchanan

. . and I'm sure there are others

Liam Byrne

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

I'm still going for David Norris, the guy is great and we would be the first country in the world to have a gay President.

Who cares ? If a gay person is equal then it makes no difference - it's irrelevant to whether or not they can do a job.

trapsagenius

jmayo wrote: »

.

BTW why shouldn't I debate a man (could think of more apt descriptions) who quiet a few posters including yourself want to represent us as president.

Thats really mature of you to imply Bertie Ahern is something less than a man because he MIGHT have unethically accepted cash gifts[


Jeeze of course they always take the creit for the good things but not little piddly things like huge mortgages round people's necks for their lifetimes, sh**e healthcare system, loss of jobs, spiralling crime, crap planning or completly wasting the huge shortterm windfalls they actually did create through getting their buddies rich.

So it is FG that are the disgrace and not ff. :rolleyes:
Classic.

One thing i always wondered was that because if FG gave FF no credit for the economic growth,shouldn't they not blame them for the recession?


anymore,
he got very annoyed when I suggested the same thing in post #62.

Once a soldier of dysentery always one, no matter if they are 10,000 miles away in a country where politicans actually resign or are fired for misdemanours that would be seen as par for the course in ff land.

Again, very mature.:rolleyes:

Underlined parts are my comments

grezz

david norris is the man for the aras

Shea O'Meara

hallelujajordan wrote: »

Enda Kenny is learning the hard way after the recent opinion poll results that the Irish public want something more than just an attack on FF . . .

I agree. The opposition are being seen as spending more time trying to get one up rather than showing as a strong alternative.
That said, I am not simply a member of any anti-FF brigade, or on salary to act as such. That label, like most knee-jerk defensive FF comments belittle genuine and well thought out conclusions which lead to a dislike and distrust of the party. As a person not affiliated to any party Bertie Ahern and his party have a lot to answer for and in time, in my view, he will be shown to be as corrupt as all the other bright lights of Fianna Fail's past. Believe me, I would love nothing better than Fianna Fail, as they are the ruling party, to make a complete turn around on our current crisis. I still would be hard pressed to trust them as a collective body, but would respect a job well done.
But time and time again, since the party's inception they have been shown up as a collection of self serving sneak thieves. Bertie Ahern is a poster boy for old and current Fianna Fail, that being a rotten party. And therefore I believe a very poor choice for President. Defending them for the sake of association is on your own head. I really don't understand any persons need to fight their corner. How anyone can blindly support them in the face of generational misdeeds is beyond me but that's your privilage to choose.
Of those mentioned, I'd probably vote Norris.

hallelujajordan

Shea O'Meara wrote: »

I agree. The opposition are being seen as spending more time trying to get one up rather than showing as a strong alternative.
That said, I am not simply a member of any anti-FF brigade, or on salary to act as such. That label, like most knee-jerk defensive FF comments belittle genuine and well thought out conclusions which lead to a dislike and distrust of the party. As a person not affiliated to any party Bertie Ahern and his party have a lot to answer for and in time, in my view, he will be shown to be as corrupt as all the other bright lights of Fianna Fail's past. Believe me, I would love nothing better than Fianna Fail, as they are the ruling party, to make a complete turn around on our current crisis. I still would be hard pressed to trust them as a collective body, but would respect a job well done.
But time and time again, since the party's inception they have been shown up as a collection of self serving sneak thieves. Bertie Ahern is a poster boy for old and current Fianna Fail, that being a rotten party. And therefore I believe a very poor choice for President. Defending them for the sake of association is on your own head. I really don't understand any persons need to fight their corner. How anyone can blindly support them in the face of generational misdeeds is beyond me but that's your privilage to choose.
Of those mentioned, I'd probably vote Norris.

It's a choice, not a need and I'm not blind . . I just see things differently to you . .

. . but thank you for recognising my privilege to choose . . If we can all do that and debate the future with real thoughts and ideas instead of competing to come up with the wittiest FF put-down, this will be a more interesting forum

Liam Byrne

hallelujajordan wrote: »

.....the wittiest FF put-down

Can I be the one to administer the lethal injection, please ?

All jokes aside, if everyone avoided that, and if conversely the FF supporters avoided labelling facts and honest, informed opinions and concerns as "bashing", it would be an improvement.

anymore

hallelujajordan wrote: »

Actually he didn't get annoyed at all . . he refused to be drawn by a silly off-topic comment. . . but he ought to have been.

The thing that frustrates me most about this forum at the moment is that it is a perfect reflection of Irish politics. Instead of coming up with real alternatives, debating real ideas or real solutions there is a group on here (much like the current opposition) who prefer to just throw sh*t at Fianna Fail and you are dragging every single thread in the same direction . . . culminating in making inane antidemocratic comments like this suggesting that those of us who support FF are somehow less entitled to a vote that the rest of you . . .

Enda Kenny is learning the hard way after the recent opinion poll results that the Irish public want something more than just an attack on FF . . .

And how do you proprose debating a poteNtial Presidential bid by Bertie Ahern without discusssing either the man and his party and his record ?

Jim236

wicklowwonder wrote: »

Sinn Fein would love to have Gerry Adams or anyone of their members in the Aras for 2016 celebrations to turn the event into a farce!! Sinn Fein of today is no way related to the party which played an integral part in our freedom and I hope the Irish people do not have to go through the humilation of Sinn Fein hijacking what should be a celebration of our country's fore fathers.

And what, Fianna Fáil are? Dunno about you but I voted SF in the last local elections, and I'd glady vote for them come 2011!

wicklowwonder wrote: »

Personally I would like to see Bertie get the job as I feel he could play an integral part in trade missions and is loved and very respected abroad as we all saw during our last presidency of the EU. Ireland should use this man to help regain our financial, political and economic standing we had and have the potential to regain. I do not think anyone else on the Irish political playing field holds the same respect abroad as Bertie and despite his ratings at home I feel it could be the country's best interest to let him help in regaining our place at the top table in world econmics!!

How exactly can someone do any of what you just listed when our President has no power? I mean you can credit Mary McAleese with building relations between Nationalists and Loyalists, and indeed the North and South during her time as President, but other than that she's done nothing for the country and doesn't deserve the salary she's on, even after her recent paycuts. And thats the reality of Oifig an Uachtarain na hÉireann, it has no power. So anyone running for President next year can't say they'll help regain our financial and economic standing, they can't say they'll change healthcare policy, they can't say they'll make sure education isn't cut, they can't say they'll increase jobs. All they'll be able to do is say you should vote for them because they're just better than the other joe soap running for President.

Fine Gael go on about scrapping the Seanad because it has no purpose, our feckin President has no purpose! At least the Seanad actually have some powers, and have an actual legislative role. And its not just the fact our President has no role, they can't even do anything without approval from the government of the day. Everything they say, every speech they make must be approved by government. We all saw what happened when President McAleese said there should be a swift devolvement of policing and justice powers to the North, because that comment wasn't approved by government she pissed the whole cabinet off.

Really, wtf is the point in being President of Ireland? Either give it a role or scrap it, because its a waste of money that could be spent now on saving special needs assistants for schools around the country, or bringing down the cost of hospital visits or even buying new hospital beds. And I know people say that about everything, but of all things, this is actually a waste of money, because it has no role in Irish politics. Dublin's new Mayor in June will have more power than our President...

Éamon de Valera said himself the function of the President was "to guard the people's rights and mainly to guard the constitution". This isn't 1937, so we should either give our President a practical role for the 21st century Ireland, or scrap the office altogether.

Rant over.

hallelujajordan

anymore wrote: »

And how do you proprose debating a poteNtial Presidential bid by Bertie Ahern without discusssing either the man and his party and his record ?

Understood and accepted . . but do we have to have the same debate, with the same level of detail and the same level of hatred on every single thread ? . . Do we have to continue to throw out inappropriate analogies to prove a point ? Do we have to get personal and attack anyone who shares a contradictory opinion ? Do we really have to question peoples right to have a vote ?

Comments about wicklowonder's viewpoint being a good reason to not allow the Irish abroad have a vote add nothing to the debate.

anymore

Jim236 wrote: »

And what, Fianna Fáil are? Dunno about you but I voted SF in the last local elections, and I'd glady vote for them come 2011!



How exactly can someone do any of what you just listed when our President has no power? I mean you can credit Mary McAleese with building relations between Nationalists and Loyalists, and indeed the North and South during her time as President, but other than that she's done nothing for the country and doesn't deserve the salary she's on, even after her recent paycuts. And thats the reality of Oifig an Uachtarain na hÉireann, it has no power. So anyone running for President next year can't say they'll help regain our financial and economic standing, they can't say they'll change healthcare policy, they can't say they'll make sure education isn't cut, they can't say they'll increase jobs. All they'll be able to do is say you should vote for them because they're just better than the other joe soap running for President.

.Very good point ... perhaps we should continue to elect non politicians which would enure that the position would remain free of the taint of unwanted politicians running for it !

Liam Byrne

hallelujajordan wrote: »

Understood and accepted . . but do we have to have the same debate, with the same level of detail and the same level of hatred on every single thread ? . . Do we have to continue to throw out inappropriate analogies to prove a point ? Do we have to get personal and attack anyone who shares a contradictory opinion ?

Conversely, why do we repeatedly have to suffer valid concerns and opinions being expressed as "Bertie-bashing", or listen to "the past is the past", as if we were somehow supposed to or required to forget all of the corruption and incompetence.

I will admit to getting dragged into this a few times, but when someone says "when he's found innocent" as if that was a given and somehow means he was a great man - despite both (a) the "when" being conjecture and (b) that "innocence" being no reflection on his actual activities, because that's a specific term of reference - then it's understandable to want to state the facts.

Similarly, any discussion of FF involves "forgetting the past" (i.e. their track record).

If both sides would agree to avoid these tactics, then fair enough, but I will not accept that it's all one-sided, and gloss-overs and half-truths need to be challenged.

wicklowwonder

jmayo wrote: »

Why am I not surprised you are landlord.

Firstly what does this point have to do with anything?

This thread is about the future president of Ireland which Bertie Ahern has been named as a candidate and I understand people airing their grievances but he is still an innocent man at time of writing and thus deserves to be backed, if, or when as some of you might like to think, he is prove guilty I will be the first to condemn him (sorry about the typo earlier in thread). I do not understand how this thread has been turned into a row over FF – FG and Bertie Ahern, there are on threads on this site to debate these issues. And I know I have partook in this row but please can we just go about discussing the future president and we can all row about FF-FG and economic leadership or lack or slate or defend the opposition in different thread all ready established on this site for that purpose.

The fact is people have also brought John Hume, Brian Crowley, Alan Dukes and numerous other names to this debate and these people have not received half as much debate or discussion as FF and FG. So can we move on and talk about the election and leave the party bashing to other threads.

Also I would like to point out during my period in Australia I missed two votes last years local and European elections and the Lisbon 2, which I was very disappointed to miss that referendum and was delighted to hear it passed, I did not apply for a postal vote as I was travelling at the time and did not have a permanent address, however I would have if I was settled in Brisbane like I am now. I intend very much to return to Ireland later this year so hopefully I will not miss any more votes as I take my constitutional right to vote very serious and I do not like people saying I do not deserve to vote because I am currently over seas.

Liam Byrne

wicklowwonder wrote: »

he is still an innocent man at time of writing and thus deserves to be backed

That is not a given (and yet again, broad statements like that need to be challenged, because otherwise the result of the enquiry would be touted as an excuse to absolve him of everything that he ever did).

Whether or not he is "guilty" within the very narrow terms of reference of the enquiry has no bearing on the fact that his mismanagement of the economy means that he should never hold office again.

wicklowwonder

Liam Byrne wrote: »

That is not a given (and yet again, broad statements like that need to be challenged, because otherwise the result of the enquiry would be touted as an excuse to absolve him of everything that he ever did).

Whether or not he is "guilty" within the very narrow terms of reference of the enquiry has no bearing on the fact that his mismanagement of the economy means that he should never hold office again.

Ok you feel he should not hold office again we have established that, I feel if these allegations are hollow he could take the presidential office up a step through trade missions his reputation abroad etc. Again this has been established earlier in thread

Have you any opinions on the other candidates? Who would you like to see in the office? Do you feel Brian Crowley would even get the Fianna Fail nominee? How do you feel of a FF candidate against Sinn Fein Candidate? Let’s move on with the debate and not go around in circles debating Bertie Ahern........

LiberalUtopia

Bertie Ahern over Norris any day of the week.

Bertie has the Catholic vote sewn up.

Liam Byrne

LiberalUtopia wrote: »

Bertie has the Catholic vote sewn up.

What does that mean ?

Apart from my seriously considering the CountMeOut option, I'm a (lapsed) Catholic.

Liam Byrne

In the interests of moving the discussion along, I'll ignore the fact that you again focussed on "these allegations", instead of his overall actions.

wicklowwonder wrote: »

Have you any opinions on the other candidates?

I don't actually know of any potential candidates, other than Adams and Ahern. And neither of those represent an Ireland I'd want to be a part of.

So if there are any other candidates that emerge that I feel represent me and my country, I'll post here with my opinion.

wicklowwonder wrote: »

Who would you like to see in the office?

Someone who represents my ethics and morals. I'll get back to you on it, but it probably wouldn't even be a politician....although Garret Fitzgerald tends to talk sense, seems like a fair and honest man, got Ireland out of its last recession, started the peace process rolling, and tells things like they are. Maybe he deserves the position.

wicklowwonder wrote: »

Do you feel Brian Crowley would even get the Fianna Fail nominee?

As a member of FF, he supports/condones a party whose actions and goals disgust me, so I don't care whether or not they nominate him as long as he doesn't get it.

wicklowwonder wrote: »

How do you feel of a FF candidate against Sinn Fein Candidate?

Already answered earlier. If those are the only options I'll either emigrate or run myself.

LiberalUtopia

Liam Byrne wrote: »

What does that mean ?

Apart from my seriously considering the CountMeOut option, I'm a (lapsed) Catholic.

Bertie has stood up in the Dail and defended the Church from snide remarks from the Labour Party with regard to All Hallows, Drumcondra.

http://debates.oireachtas.ie/DDebate.aspx?F=DAL20090612.xml&Ex=All&Page=2

...
The religious superiors were confident in their power. Senior politicians and senior civil servants were submissive or worse. As former Deputy Liz O’Donnell told this House: “The phone calls between All Hallows and Government Buildings must stop.” Deputy Ahern, for his part, made plain, in an untypically sharp response to Liz O’Donnell that, as far as he was concerned, the calls would continue.
...

Fair play to him for standing up for what he (and his constituents) believe in.

wicklowwonder

LiberalUtopia wrote: »

Bertie Ahern over Norris any day of the week.

Bertie has the Catholic vote sewn up.

I couldn't see the Catholic vote accounting for that much of the population. Who in this day and age still listens to an organisation which does not agree with condoms, does not let there priests get married and that is before we talk about their other scandals. IMO if the Catholic Church came out in support of Bertie or any other candidate in this matter it would be more of hinderance than a help.

Liam Byrne

LiberalUtopia wrote: »

Fair play to him for standing up for what he (and his constituents) believe in.

More parish pump politics, and that's not even going into the disgraceful burden that was placed on the taxpayer when the FF Government limited that church's exposure to compensation to the victims of the scum that the church failed to weed out and submit to the same criminal prosecution that anyone outside that organisation would deservedly be subjected to.

Yes, we're all paying extra tax to bail them out, too.

Liam Byrne

wicklowwonder wrote: »

Who in this day and age still listens to an organisation which does not ........ and that is before we talk about their other scandals.

Ah but all those scandals are in the past; we must forget about their track record and look to the future!!!! You can't hold someone's - or an organisation's - past actions against them ! :rolleyes:

wicklowwonder

Liam Byrne wrote: »

In the interests of moving the discussion along, I'll ignore the fact that you again focussed on "these allegations", instead of his overall actions.



I don't actually know of any potential candidates, other than Adams and Ahern. And neither of those represent an Ireland I'd want to be a part of.

So if there are any other candidates that emerge that I feel represent me and my country, I'll post here with my opinion.



Someone who represents my ethics and morals. I'll get back to you on it, but it probably wouldn't even be a politician....although Garret Fitzgerald tends to talk sense, seems like a fair and honest man, got Ireland out of its last recession, started the peace process rolling, and tells things like they are. Maybe he deserves the position.



As a member of FF, he supports/condones a party whose actions and goals disgust me, so I don't care whether or not they nominate him as long as he doesn't get it.



Already answered earlier. If those are the only options I'll either emigrate or run myself.

Great well at least we are moving on the debate and we can discuss allegations, Bertie and FF Government elsewhere on this website.

All candidates at the minute are just speculation other than Mary White who has said she will seek the FF nomination, Crowley would consider running he said when asked. Mairead McGuinness also said she would consider running for FG she said when asked.

Sinn Fein have declared they will run a candidate and hinted that it would be Gerry Adams.

As far as I know these are the only people other than Dave Norris of course who have spoken on the issue. We all know Dana will try, hopefully unsuccesfully as it is an awful waste of ink printing her name on the ballot card, get a nomination throught he county councils.

Can't see Crowley getting the FF nomination personally.

John Hume has been mentioned here I think personally he would be good choice.

Fitzgerald however is getting oldd and I don't know if his health would last the full term.

Full list of Paddy Power odds can be found here http://www.paddypower.com/bet/politics/other-politics/next-irish-president?ev_oc_grp_ids=33552

John Bruton at 8/1 is an outside bet, I wouldnt favour him but know people who would!

LiberalUtopia

wicklowwonder wrote: »

I couldn't see the Catholic vote accounting for that much of the population. Who in this day and age still listens to an organisation which does not agree with condoms, does not let there priests get married and that is before we talk about their other scandals. IMO if the Catholic Church came out in support of Bertie or any other candidate in this matter it would be more of hinderance than a help.

Church says sex fornication is wrong: *shock horror* Priests must devote their lives to the vocation of priestly life (as opposed to married, or single life): *shock horror*

People outside the boards.ie demographic think very differently to what you might like.

LiberalUtopia

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Ah but all those scandals are in the past; we must forget about their track record and look to the future!!!! You can't hold someone's - or an organisation's - past actions against them ! :rolleyes:

Of course the society that you subscribe to (and pay taxes towards) never laid a hand on a child. Sure the prisons are empty too.

wicklowwonder

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Ah but all those scandals are in the past; we must forget about their track record and look to the future!!!! You can't hold someone's - or an organisation's - past actions against them ! :rolleyes:

These priest have been found guilty in a court of law and the organisation - The Catholic Church - know about these actions and choose to hide them for years............. totally different situation, their is no proof FF know of any of the allegations and again Berie Ahern has not been found guilty of anything.

wicklowwonder

LiberalUtopia wrote: »

Church says sex fornication is wrong: *shock horror* Priests must devote their lives to the vocation of priestly life (as opposed to married, or single life): *shock horror*

People outside the boards.ie demographic think very differently to what you might like.

Sorry I am stuck at my PC every Sunday morning I didn't realise the Churchs are over flowing, my apologies.

LiberalUtopia

Liam Byrne wrote: »

More parish pump politics, and that's not even going into the disgraceful burden that was placed on the taxpayer when the FF Government limited that church's exposure to compensation to the victims of the scum that the church failed to weed out and submit to the same criminal prosecution that anyone outside that organisation would deservedly be subjected to.

Yes, we're all paying extra tax to bail them out, too.

I'd be more worried about toll roads, water charges and government waste to be quite honest. I don't begrudge any victim just compensation to go some way towards healing their pain (the State were, let's not forget, also found liable for the damage and neglect).

We paid €300 million last January on servicing debt. I can't see how anybody would mind paying up for the victims of child abuse.

LiberalUtopia

wicklowwonder wrote: »

Sorry I am stuck at my PC every Sunday morning I didn't realise the Churchs are over flowing, my apologies.

They come out of the woodwork when they need a funeral, or a wedding, or want that warm consumer-like "spiritual feeling" at Christmas and Easter.

Frankly, I prefer it when they stay at home in their beds while the cheap booze (amongst other fluids) oozes from their bodies.

wicklowwonder

LiberalUtopia wrote: »

They come out of the woodwork when they need a funeral, or a wedding, or want that warm consumer-like "spiritual feeling" at Christmas and Easter.

Frankly, I prefer it when they stay at home in their beds while the cheap booze (amongst other fluids) oozes from their bodies.

Funeral and Weddings are out of respect to dead and help couple celbrate their marraige and personally I usually ditch the OH at the door of the church and leg it to the pub for the Weddings quite boring and long winded occasions. However funerals I attend out respect for the dead and respect for what they believed and the choice they or their family made for their departure from life. Both occasions I believe are paid for by the family through a quite sizeable donation, do you pay tax on that by the way?

The most important words you used in your post was "comsumer-like". The Catholic Church is a business, I was brought up a Catholic, I believe in God and an after life, sometimes I wonder why, but I don't believe I have to listen to a guy tell me to live my life for an hour every sunday, but some people do and pay for the spectacle through your collections. Fair play to them they are entiltled to but not for me and alot of my generation, thank you.

Finally let get back to the 2011 presidental election please? Any sign of a bishop running? A few of them are at a loose end these days....