The Next Presidential Election

LiberalUtopia

wicklowwonder wrote: »

Funeral and Weddings are out of respect to dead and help couple celbrate their marraige...

Half-truths. (even quarter truth is being generous).

anymore

wicklowwonder wrote: »

These priest have been found guilty in a court of law and the organisation - The Catholic Church - know about these actions and choose to hide them for years............. totally different situation, their is no proof FF know of any of the allegations and again Berie Ahern has not been found guilty of anything.

There is proof that as early as the late 1930's the conditions of cruelty at the religious run institutions were brought to the attention of the then Government. From my memory, Diarmaid Ferriter's Treansformation of Ireland 1900 - 2000 dealt briefly with various isssues relating to the cruelty and abuse of children during the first fifty years or so of the State.

Laminations

Sorry Wicklow, I cant let you keep ignoring the question. Allegations ASIDE, do you think Berties behaviour at the tribunal was admirable? Do you think his explanations at the tribunal were credible? You must have an opinion yourself, not just say you'll wait for the tribunal to report. Finally do you think Berties running of the country was successful or could it be viewed as mismanagement? We dont need to engage in party bashing, we are debating the mans suitability. Your answers to the questions will help me understand your support.

wicklowwonder

I look at it from a personal point of view could you or me explain every penny that went through accounts over ten-twenty years ago? I know i couldnt. I think if he was trying to hide something he would of came up with more believable excuses.... I do believe he was naive and he should of made public at the time the manchester dig out definitly but maybe he was protecting his young family. I hope he is not lying because his family and estranged wife do not deserved to be dragged through that. I also cant see what payments represented the sequence of events i believe has him recieving the money when he was minister for labour and finance so thus he wasnt a member of council so it wasnt for a land rezoning vote? He could make representations on behalf of a developer and i know a minister might help sway a vote but surely there was so many corrupt members of dublin county council at the time just pay off the councillor. But i do await the findings and if found guilty my attitude will change i can guarantee you that! He lead our country through the best of times, he helped majorly bring peace to the north and he represented us admiraly abroad. You can see mismanagement but at the time the opposition where saying ff where not spending enough money and that is on record in the dail so imagine the mess we would be in now if that was the case. I have a few faults with his time of leader, firstly mccreevy should never of been moved to europe i feel he was excellent minister for finance and would not let the banking crisis develop as it did. I also felt he stood up to bertie and bertie listened cowen was to much of a yes man and now he is paying the price. Mccreevy once said he would love to be leader of ireland but would never be able to lead ff, i would personally feel more secure if he was leading us now. 2nd fault is going into government with greens, bertie and his team should of convinced labour to come into coalition if this he had to step down after the election so be it.

wicklowwonder

Sorry my phone only lets me enter a certain number of letters per post. In the labour issue I was talking bout i feel bertie won the election got a little cocky, he should of swalloded his pride stepped down as leader after election go into power with labour my alas hindsight twenty twenty vision! I hope this gives you a quick snap shot of my train of thought. I also believe a man is innocent until proven guilty, some people may say i have to much faith in human beings but so be it. Sorry for spelling etc and disjointed posts i am on my mobile so can read a little like a text

Liam Byrne

wicklowwonder wrote: »

I look at it from a personal point of view could you or me explain every penny that went through accounts over ten-twenty years ago? I know i couldnt.

That's the Bertie-speak "normalisation" - "ah sure who could remember that" - as if it were €50 or €100.

HOWEVER the key difference is that if someone gave you the equivalent of a year's wages, there's absolutely no way you'd forget about it.

wicklowwonder

Liam Byrne wrote: »

That's the Bertie-speak "normalisation" - "ah sure who could remember that" - as if it were €50 or €100.

HOWEVER the key difference is that if someone gave you the equivalent of a year's wages, there's absolutely no way you'd forget about it.

I understand your view but he didnt just forget about the money he claims the money is made up of pay checks been cashed the dig out money and sterling from wall, horses and manchester. Truthfully the man bertie is as popular and as likeable as he was at the time if he had anything to hide i really feel he could have developed a much better story. That is my view. You or i could of came up with a better story i feel. Also what do you think bribes where for if he did recieve them?

hallelujajordan

wicklowwonder wrote: »

I understand your view but he didnt just forget about the money he claims the money is made up of pay checks been cashed the dig out money and sterling from wall, horses and manchester. Truthfully the man bertie is as popular and as likeable as he was at the time if he had anything to hide i really feel he could have developed a much better story. That is my view. You or i could of came up with a better story i feel. Also what do you think bribes where for if he did recieve them?

This is a critical point for me . . If Bertie was clearly living beyond his taoiseach / minister salary or if there was a significant smoking gun that indicated that he was influencing government decisions for the benefit of others then I would be more critical . .

But there is no such evidence. . .

wicklowwonder

hallelujajordan wrote: »

This is a critical point for me . . If Bertie was clearly living beyond his taoiseach / minister salary or if there was a significant smoking gun that indicated that he was influencing government decisions for the benefit of others then I would be more critical . .

But there is no such evidence. . .

exactly my point loads of people are throwing accusations around that the man took bungs but yet noone can say what he did in return even when tom gilmartin i think it was was asked in the tribunal what bertie did for the money he paused thought then replied something along the lines that bertie always looked for money for favours but never delivered on the favours, if that is the case why APPARENTLY did so many people bribe him, i believe he was naive at a very rough part of his life, he mad mistakes like we all do but they where honest mistakes. My views i know others dont share them.....

Red_Marauder

wicklowwonder wrote: »

Truthfully the man bertie is as popular and as likeable as he was at the time

Where? In Australia? Maybe he should run in Brisbane then.
I think the above statement is quite glaringly incorrect.

wicklowwonder

Red_Marauder wrote: »

Where? In Australia? Maybe he should run in Brisbane then.
I think the above statement is quite glaringly incorrect.

read the statement in the full context of the post! I will rephrase it for you. He was the height of his popularity when allegations came to light he could of used his position to come up with a much more convincing story if had something to hide. Also why do people keep bringing up the fact i am in australia, just because i am over seas does not mean i do not have my finger on the pulse of feelings in ireland, i am fully aware of everything going on. It doesnt take 3 months for letters to be exchanged with all the news nowadays, internet skype etc help! Get over my position in the globe

Laminations

wicklowwonder wrote: »

...he could of used his position to come up with a much more convincing story

So you agree his version of events was entirely unconvincing?

Liam Byrne

wicklowwonder wrote: »

I will rephrase it for you. He was the height of his popularity when allegations came to light he could of used his position to come up with a much more convincing story if had something to hide.

I have two points to make on this:

1) Whether or not he took bribes is not the issue either; even if the only thing that he did was screw up the economy (as Minister for Finance and as Taoiseach) he'd be a liability. And that's even ignoring the blank cheques that he wrote for Haughey.

2) Bertie's whole "appeal" tactic was to appear a bumbling, likeable idiot; behind the scenes, he's a much shrewder and unlikeable character - have you forgotten Haughey's quote : "the most cunning and devious of them all" ?

In for a photo shoot as his "beloved" Man United match in 3D at the weekend, exiting ten minutes later.

He made an art out of waffling and appearing to promise everything with so much caveats that he had committed to, and delivered, nothing.

He also managed to laugh off corruption when asked about it on The Late Late - getting the gullible audience to laugh along that he "didn't like Haughey's shirts" when asked one of the few direct questions : after claiming that Haughey asked him to do nothing wrong, Tubridy asked why he wrote cheques for Haughey, and Ahern laughed it off........that is not acceptable behaviour or an acceptable answer when asked about corruption and misappropriation of funds, but the "loveable Bertie" got away with it, because ah, sure, isn't he just a likeable auld rogue.

I wouldn't put it past him to have deliberately and tactically planned to make up excuses precisely so that people would take the view that you have expressed.

To me, his election posters where the same pic of him was Photoshopped onto a canvas alongside various old couples, young couples, etc - not actual photos taken as he was nowhere near them - summed him up perfectly : wanting to look like a "man of the ordinary people" while not wanting to be anywhere near them.

wicklowwonder

Laminations wrote: »

So you agree his version of events was entirely unconvincing?

i believe he is telling the truth. I believe he genuinely got dig outs from friends and felt ashamed like alot of men would so didnt want to reveal this. If he had something to hide i believe he would used his influence to come but with a more elbarate (sic) story. In all fairness he could easily have?

Red_Marauder

wicklowwonder wrote: »

read the statement in the full context of the post! I will rephrase it for you. He was the height of his popularity when allegations came to light he could of used his position to come up with a much more convincing story if had something to hide.

Everbody is aware of that, but this statement

Truthfully the man bertie is as popular and as likeable as he was at the time if he had anything to hide i really feel he could have developed a much better story.

Now if you have worded that badly, or don't mean it is it is written, OK.

But if you think that he retains the kind of popularity as he did pre 2007, then I actually do think you are way out of touch with the mood of the people.

anymore

wicklowwonder wrote: »

I look at it from a personal point of view could you or me explain every penny that went through accounts over ten-twenty years ago? I know i couldnt. I think if he was trying to hide something he would of came up with more believable excuses.... I do believe he was naive and he should of made public at the time the manchester dig out definitly but maybe he was protecting his young family. I hope he is not lying because his family and estranged wife do not deserved to be dragged through that. I also cant see what payments represented the sequence of events i believe has him recieving the money when he was minister for labour and finance so thus he wasnt a member of council so it wasnt for a land rezoning vote? He could make representations on behalf of a developer and i know a minister might help sway a vote but surely there was so many corrupt members of dublin county council at the time just pay off the councillor. But i do await the findings and if found guilty my attitude will change i can guarantee you that! He lead our country through the best of times, he helped majorly bring peace to the north and he represented us admiraly abroad. You can see mismanagement but at the time the opposition where saying ff where not spending enough money and that is on record in the dail so imagine the mess we would be in now if that was the case. I have a few faults with his time of leader, firstly mccreevy should never of been moved to europe i feel he was excellent minister for finance and would not let the banking crisis develop as it did. I also felt he stood up to bertie and bertie listened cowen was to much of a yes man and now he is paying the price. Mccreevy once said he would love to be leader of ireland but would never be able to lead ff, i would personally feel more secure if he was leading us now. 2nd fault is going into government with greens, bertie and his team should of convinced labour to come into coalition if this he had to step down after the election so be it.

When time allows I will go throught some of the more bizzare revalations to emerge from the Mahon Tribunal, for now I will say can any of imagine a situation where we were Minister for Finance and saying that we spent several years as Minister and did not have a bank account and that we were in the habit of letting tousands in cash lying around drawers in our office/house ? This is at a time when the Government were trying to persuade the Public to accept payment of wages in cheque or direct debits rather than in the traditional cash !
As for trying to hide things, he made repeated attempts to try to prevent the Tribunal from looking in to his financial accounts.
His memory of events years ago was extraordianarily precise when he was able to tell the Tribunal that he couldnt have gone to a certian bank/banks on certain occassions in Dec !

wicklowwonder

firstly do you even know how the haughey quote came about? Bertie had just succeed in gaining a breakthrough in a very very bitter strike the esb 1 thing. It was the 3rd or 4th strike bertie had brokered a deal for. Haughey was trilled bertie was in the middle of a news confernce haughey through his head in to congradulate bertie, journos all looking on he pulled out that line with a big smile and joke it was typical haughey. Secondly the haughey leadership i feel in hindsight was not a good time for ff party alot of things occured that shouldnt have. Leaders since have done there best to right the wrongs but i agree the legacy still lives, however at the time bertie had no reason not to trust haughey and i believe he would now regret this even if he hasnt said it. I have meet the man numerous times and he always is willing to engage in conversation, he has shaken hands and met more voters than any td i do not know what posters u are talking about but i do not for a second think he would not bother having a real photo taken as one of his human faults is that he tends to be a bit vain as you proved by your reference to his ten minutes at fagans for a photo alot of people cant help smile for a photo.... I think at this stage you are trying to just through enough sh1t and hope some of it sticks like come on election posters next you will be saying he was a bad leader because he didnt buy his own boxers. I have already addressed my feelings towards his management of the country a few posts up

Liam Byrne

wicklowwonder wrote: »

I think at this stage you are trying to just through enough sh1t and hope some of it sticks like come on election posters next you will be saying he was a bad leader because he didnt buy his own boxers.

Think what you like - you're wrong. :rolleyes:

And I'm not throwing any sh1t; I'm stating the facts and saying what opinion of him those facts have resulted in.

You've seen the same facts, and you choose to gloss over the nasty bits and give him the benefit of the doubt on everything.

That's your choice.

But if you want me to claim that I think you're just throwing enough soap in the hope that some of it will wash out the ****, then I will.

The election posters weren't an issue in themselves; I said that when I saw them I thought they summed him up perfectly. So please avoid further red herrings.

What makes your opinion valid, while causing you to consider mine as throwing sh1t ?


And do you think that laughing about signing blank cheques to facilitate misappropriation of charity funds is acceptable for a future president ?

wicklowwonder

Red_Marauder wrote: »

Everbody is aware of that, but this statement


Now if you have worded that badly, or don't mean it is it is written, OK.

But if you think that he retains the kind of popularity as he did pre 2007, then I actually do think you are way out of touch with the mood of the people.

sorry as i said i am on my mobile posting and it can be quiet awkward to reread posts for mistakes i have worded this wrongly and the rewrite is a more accurate sentence of what i was trying to say my apologies. if i claimed he is still as popular as in 2007 i hope you would know i was talking through my arse and thus ignore my whole arguement. I know well he is not......

Red_Marauder

hallelujajordan wrote:

If Bertie was clearly living beyond his taoiseach / minister salary

Lodgements to his bank account were larger than his salary by a factor of two from 1993 - 95 when he was a Minister. for Finance.

Official financial records do not back up his explanations for this. That's one smoking gun.

or if there was a significant smoking gun that indicated that he was influencing government decisions for the benefit of others then I would be more critical . .

The allegation by Owen O Callaghan is that Bertie Ahern received IR£50, 000 to help secure the development of Quarryvale at that time when he had a position to do so

That's another smoking gun.

anymore

I met him once : he was standing on his own outside a hall being used as an election hall. I went over with a small kid, shook his hand and I think I wished him well - he barely spoke a word, not even to the kid. It left a sour taste and I walked away vowing not to vote FF at that election - :mad:
Everything I have learned about the him since confirms the wisdom of that resolution.

Laminations

Wicklowwonder I've opened a thread on Bertie and I'd be happy for you to come and debate there. In truth I am also getting fed up with every thread getting sidelined by this debate, but the debate is an important one to have

Iwasfrozen

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Who cares ? If a gay person is equal then it makes no difference - it's irrelevant to whether or not they can do a job.

I never said it would affect his ability to be President, I said it would be cool.

Liam Byrne

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

I never said it would affect his ability to be President, I said it would be cool.

Why ? It's still a person.

Laminations

I agree with Liam, it only attests to our backwards-ness that sexual orientation is even being mentioned.

Now if we had a dragon or demigod (not a demagogue) for president....that would be cool. There is nothing special about a gay person, its a legitimate point to say Norris's personality makes him special

Iwasfrozen

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Why ? It's still a person.

As was Barack Obama, but it was still pretty cool when he was elected.

Laminations wrote:

I agree with Liam, it only attests to our backwards-ness that sexual orientation is even being mentioned.

So your saying America was backword when they elected Obama and people made a huge deal about his race ?

Liam Byrne

Laminations wrote: »

Now if we had a dragon or demigod (not a demagogue) for president....that would be cool.

...as long as it's not someone who's deluded enough to think he's a demigod and is worshipped!

Liam Byrne

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

As was Barack Obama, but it was still pretty cool when he was elected.

Only because he was (viewed as) a change from the warmonger, and a Democrat.

Other than that, I saw nothing "cool" about it.

Iwasfrozen

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Only because he was (viewed as) a change from the warmonger, and a Democrat.

Other than that, I saw nothing "cool" about it.

You didn't, but alot of people did.
Are those people backword ?

Liam Byrne

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

You didn't, but alot of people did.
Are those people backword ?

I didn't say that, and since Obama is an American president, it's not particularly relevant - start another thread and we'll discuss it there.

But briefly, I do think that someone's colour, orientation, race, sex, etc is irrelevant; they'd be no-go areas in most job interviews, or as a basis for refusing a job, so why should they be "cool" or acceptable, or even relevant ?

If someone is the most qualified, they get it. If not, they don't.

And while I accept that the world doesn't always work that way, I certainly see no reason to regard what should be normal as "cool".