Clamped by Euro Car Parks,worth appealing to The Independent Parking Appeals Service?

Gregsor

Hi folks,

Looking for a general opinion on whether to take this further with the independent appeal office now as our first appeal was declined.

I was visiting my Grandmother mid December in the respite center at the back of Blanchardstown hospital which i had done umpteen times during her long stay there and i was literally in for 15 minutes when the head nurse came in the door saying the clamper was outside looking at a jeep and was it ours,it was and we didn`t understand,clamping here?when this start?
So we were straight out to confront the clamper and it was no use he had clamped it and he wasn`t budging,but gave us an office number to ring and drove off.

We rang the number,they said ring such and such division then,so we did,then we were told to explain to the clamper and inform him we were in the 30 minute grace period(which is instructed by the hospital),that we had been unaware of the changes of the free parking (which is disgraceful)and how long we had been in the hospital and no we had not noticed the pay parking signs(obviously if we had we would have paid)and the meter was in between the 2 units further on up the road almost out of sight with trees and all in obstruction of it!

Now my arguement is we had sought to get change for the meter to pay and display upon realizing the changes which is when we informed he was going up to our car and it was still in the grace period of 30 mins.

My partner had pointed out on the appeal that we had only been in the building 15 mins or so and they have taken it up now that we had gone in with no intention of pay and displaying for our entire stay which we had sought to and get change for it once we realised thus our appeal was rejected.


We feel they were waiting for us that day and had no empathy to the situation and the way they keep putting us on to another person,disappearing for some time then reappears just waiting for us to pay to remove the clamp as we were told nothing could be done until we paid up and appeal after payment in writing.


So in the end it is E80 they have off me and the appeal is another E20.

Has anyone gone through the Independent Parking Appeals Service and got a turnaround?

As you can tell it was my first time been clamped and i don`t feel i was in the wrong,even more so with the grace period allowed and it is our word against theirs on wether we intended paying or not within that time.

We also have a witness who works there and will vouch for our duration inside.

Tipsy Mac

As far as I know theres no appeals process in Ireland for private clampers as they are unregulated.

Berty

Of course they were waiting for you.

Business is business and they are in the business of making money.

You didn't see the sign. You cannot claim you didn't see the sign. Its no excuse. It would be very unlikely anybody would refund your clamping fee.

Just to clarify, is there a grace period of 30 minutes still or has that been removed. I know the Regional Hospital in Limerick still has this 20 minute period outside the main entrance which can fit around 3 cars but is this STILL the case in Blanch?

If not and it has been removed completely then you have no leg to stand on.

Gregsor

Tipsy Mac wrote: »

As far as I know theres no appeals process in Ireland for private clampers as they are unregulated.

This is details forwarded by EuroCarparks-
Independent Appeals Service:

All appeals must be submitted to,

Independent Parking Appeals Service,
P.O. Box 11649,
Blackrock,
Co. Dublin.

and enclose the IPAS form duly completed and signed, copies of all relevant evidence and a clear statement of the grounds of the appeal. You must include a cheque or a postal order for €20 made payable to:

Independent Parking Appeals Service

Berty wrote: »

Of course they were waiting for you.

Business is business and they are in the business of making money.

You didn't see the sign. You cannot claim you didn't see the sign. Its no excuse. It would be very unlikely anybody would refund your clamping fee.

Just to clarify, is there a grace period of 30 minutes still or has that been removed. I know the Regional Hospital in Limerick still has this 20 minute period outside the main entrance which can fit around 3 cars but is this STILL the case in Blanch?

If not and it has been removed completely then you have no leg to stand on.

Yes EuroCarparks acknowledged the 30 minute grace period in their respnonse.

Berty

Gregsor wrote: »

Yes EuroCarparks acknowledged the 30 minute grace period in their respnonse.

Go for it. Your word against theirs mind you about how long you were there but If you KNOW you are in the right then you should be obliged by your own principles to go for it.

Del2005

Gregsor wrote: »

This is details forwarded by EuroCarparks-
Independent Appeals Service:

All appeals must be submitted to,

Independent Parking Appeals Service,
P.O. Box 11649,
Blackrock,
Co. Dublin.

and enclose the IPAS form duly completed and signed, copies of all relevant evidence and a clear statement of the grounds of the appeal. You must include a cheque or a postal order for €20 made payable to:

Independent Parking Appeals Service


Yes EuroCarparks acknowledged the 30 minute grace period in their respnonse.

That sounds like a scam to get another €20 off you. How do you know they aren't just pocketing the money and saying your appeal failed. As Tipsy Mac said they are a private company and there is no regulation.

I'd spend the €20 on a grinder then an appeal, you're bound to win the next case:D

Muckie

Could you try the Smal Claims Court, think it only cost €20 to
try, plus you could drag them in and get them much unwanted
media attention.

Bandara

Your wasting your time and you won't win.

They are well used to people appealing and claiming they should not have been clamped for whatever reason, be it valid or otherwise.

They will not back down and i'd be amazed if after your case was already rejected that the same result doesn't happen again.

They could not care a jot about publicity etc, everyone 'hates' clampers anyway so things like this will not bother them.

Victor

Gregsor wrote: »

I was visiting my Grandmother mid December in the respite center at the back of Blanchardstown hospital which i had done umpteen times during her long stay there and i was literally in for 15 minutes

My partner had pointed out on the appeal that we had only been in the building 15 mins or so

How certain are you of this. Many people grossly understate times.

We rang the number,they said ring such and such division then,so we did,then we were told to explain to the clamper and inform him we were in the 30 minute grace period(which is instructed by the hospital)

You have no right to a grace period. grace periods are about priritising the clamping, not about giving you free parking.

that we had been unaware of the changes of the free parking

Is it free parking or not?

(which is disgraceful)

Hospitals are there to provide medical services, not parking.

no we had not noticed the pay parking signs

Were the pay parking signs clear? If they were, you have little case.

Now my arguement is we had sought to get change for the meter to pay and display upon realizing the changes which is when we informed he was going up to our car and it was still in the grace period of 30 mins.

Do you want to rephrase that?

We feel they were waiting for us that day

How did they know you were coming?

galwaytt

Victor wrote: »

You have no right to a grace period. grace periods are about priritising the clamping,

Proof, please, or it's BS.

Victor wrote: »

... Hospitals are there to provide medical services.

....well, unless they're going to build the things floating in mid-air, and provide teleporters for people to get there, parking is exaclty what they have to provide.

Victor wrote: »

How did they know you were coming?

...by the same token I reckon you're a smart ****. They weren't visiting a Hospital for a session on the sunbed.

si_guru

I'm with Victor.. sorry.

Sounds like you chanced your arm and got caught.

http://www.connollyhospital.ie/en/PatientsVisitors/Parking/

MojoMaker

Gregsor wrote: »

Hi folks,

we had not noticed the pay parking signs(obviously if we had we would have paid).

This is so f*cking wrong.

Obviously I would have disclosed the sterling "gifts" my buddies gave me if it wasn't for the Moriarty tribunal forcing my hand.

Bertie.

Obviously = ****e.

Our man in Havana

There is no such thing as the independent parking appeals service. It is a different desk in the clampers office that sends out form letters saying your appeal has been rejected.

These guys are totally unregulated and are often of questionable character. An angle grinder is your best bet.

Victor

galwaytt wrote: »

Proof, please, or it's BS.

Surely its on you to prove that there is a right to a grace period? Different types of nuisance parking get different priority. You are going to give a taxi in a loading bay outside a hotel more grace than some randomer in a wheelchair space.

....well, unless they're going to build the things floating in mid-air, and provide teleporters for people to get there, parking is exaclty what they have to provide.

Several bus routes go right by the hospital, including the 220, 38 and 38c which go through the grounds. Castleknock train station is nearby.

...by the same token I reckon you're a smart ****. They weren't visiting a Hospital for a session on the sunbed.

And the clamper knows this how?

Absurdum

Victor wrote: »

Surely its on you to prove that there is a right to a grace period? Different types of nuisance parking get different priority. You are going to give a taxi in a loading bay outside a hotel more grace than some randomer in a wheelchair space.

I'm not sure what the definition of "nuisance parking" is (if indeed there is one) but parking in a parking space in a car park should not be one, especially when there is a "grace period", according to the clampers themselves. Loading bays and wheelchair spaces are irrelevant.

Several bus routes go right by the hospital, including the 220, 38 and 38c which go through the grounds. Castleknock train station is nearby.
And the clamper knows this how?

Newbridge - Heuston - Connolly - Castleknock on trains & Luas Vs Driving....no brainer there, and again is irrelevant to the OP.

x in the city

you should have just got a grinder on it, tell them you are a private person with no regulation

fob all they can do

Victor

Absurdum wrote: »

I'm not sure what the definition of "nuisance parking" is (if indeed there is one)

Are you saying you can't understand how some randomer parking in a wheelchair space isn't a nuisance? Or two people parking opposite each other on a narrow road, when everyone else is parked to one side?

but parking in a parking space in a car park should not be one,

Mere non payment is the lowest in the pecking order for parkign enforcement. It is the last thing that is attended to.

Absurdum

Victor wrote: »

Are you saying you can't understand how some randomer parking in a wheelchair space isn't a nuisance? Or two people parking opposite each other on a narrow road, when everyone else is parked to one side?

Not what I was saying at all, you took that line out of context. Of course parking in a wheelchair space is a nuisance, as is causing an obstruction, but we are talking about a car park with questionable signage as to whether or not it is free, and an apparent grace period!

Mere non payment is the lowest in the pecking order for parkign enforcement. It is the last thing that is attended to.

In theory, probably.
In practice, I doubt the unregulated clampers give a damn about pecking orders!

Victor

Absurdum wrote: »

In practice, I doubt the unregulated clampers give a damn about pecking orders!

They aren't getting the money from the car parking charges, why would they care?

Mc Love

If these companies are not regulated, is it perfectly acceptable to remove a clamp?

Del2005

Mc Love wrote: »

If these companies are not regulated, is it perfectly acceptable to remove a clamp?

If you can remove the clamp without damage then you're free and clear, you may never be allowed back into the place you parked though. If you damage it there is a chance they can come after you for criminal damage.

the_barfly1

Del2005 wrote: »

If you can remove the clamp without damage then you're free and clear, you may never be allowed back into the place you parked though. If you damage it there is a chance they can come after you for criminal damage.

Sure couldnt the act of attaching the clamp to the car be deemed as criminal damage? As it renders the vehicle immobile

OP- you have the clampers address, why not just burn the place down?

Elessar

Afaik the law on clamping on private grounds is a bit of a gray area.

Clamping your car would technically be obstructing and interfering with it, which would not be legal. If you could get the clamp off without damaging it (or repair it after you get it off) then you would be fine, as the private clampers would have little to no power to take any action against you.

Of course I'm open to correction on all this but I haven't read any definitive answer on private clamping.

Del2005

Elessar wrote: »

Afaik the law on clamping on private grounds is a bit of a gray area.

Clamping your car would technically be obstructing and interfering with it, which would not be legal. If you could get the clamp off without damaging it (or repair it after you get it off) then you would be fine, as the private clampers would have little to no power to take any action against you.

Of course I'm open to correction on all this but I haven't read any definitive answer on private clamping.

That's the law as far as I know, not too sure if you can get away with repairing the clamp. Unless they have CCTV or witness you doing it, it will be next to impossible for them to prove you cut the clamp off if you keep quite.

You can technically call the Gardaí if you've been clamped by a private clamper as they have infringed on your property which is a criminal act, but I'd be very surprised if they actually turned up.

Our man in Havana

"That would be a civil matter sir" would be your typical Garda response.

maidhc

Victor wrote: »

Were the pay parking signs clear? If they were, you have little case.Do you want to rephrase that?

Seeing as clamping is regulated by contract in this context, then the terms of the car park, including the fact clamping was in operation would need to be abundantly clear prior to the fact. Every law student knows this by November in their first year. It is not enough just to have pay parking signs.

If anyone clamped me and I felt it was unjustified I'd cut it off to be honest.

Our man in Havana

maidhc wrote: »

Seeing as clamping is regulated by contract in this context, then the terms of the car park, including the fact clamping was in operation would need to be abundantly clear prior to the fact. Every law student knows this by November in their first year. It is not enough just to have pay parking signs.

If anyone clamped me and I felt it was unjustified I'd cut it off to be honest.

The relevant authority is VINE v WALTHAM FOREST LONDON BC. [2000]4 All ER 169 (CA).

Queen One

The grace period in Blanchardstown Hospital is ten minutes, not 30 !

Cutting off a clamp will result in a criminal prosection for criminal damage.

Removing a clamp without damaging it will result in criminal prosecution for theft of clamping fee.

Plenty of case law already in Ireland in this one.

The clampers are well versed legally and would not be in business if it was just cowboyism.

Maybe best policy is to abide by the rules ? I dont mind paying in Blanch as the hospital gets the mone any way.

maidhc

Queen One wrote: »

Removing a clamp without damaging it will result in criminal prosecution for theft of clamping fee.

Whatever about criminal damage for destroying a clamp (maybe) that bit about theft of a clamping fee won't work. At most you owe a debt which they can seek to recover, but won't get.

I wouldn't hold out much hope for the hospital getting a clamping fee by the time the clamping co are done.

Queen One

I know this to be correct as I am involved legally. There have been plenty of lay people thinking they can get away with it and now have been proven wrong. Search the legal pages for examples.

Tipsy Mac

Queen One wrote: »

The grace period in Blanchardstown Hospital is ten minutes, not 30 !

Cutting off a clamp will result in a criminal prosection for criminal damage.

Removing a clamp without damaging it will result in criminal prosecution for theft of clamping fee.

Plenty of case law already in Ireland in this one.

The clampers are well versed legally and would not be in business if it was just cowboyism.

Maybe best policy is to abide by the rules ? I dont mind paying in Blanch as the hospital gets the mone any way.

No case ever brought like this in Ireland as private clamping is 100% unregulated, only cost could ever be pursued legally is the cost of damaging a clamp and this without photographic evidence would be impossible to prove.

Our man in Havana

@Queen One: Give it a rest. You are clearly a clamper who likes to put the frighteners on people.

Would you care to quote some judgements?

maidhc

Queen One wrote: »

I know this to be correct as I am involved legally. There have been plenty of lay people thinking they can get away with it and now have been proven wrong. Search the legal pages for examples.

I'm also "involved legally".I disagree with you, and call on you back up your claims.

Queen One

No not a clamper now nor would I like to be. Dont know the names but know the law as that is my involvement.

Queen One

Try Custom House Docks Development Co Vs Harbourmaster Bar around 10 years ago.

Off out now for Saturday night sados !

Our man in Havana

Not a case in a court of record. Means nothing.

Gregsor

Interesting mixed views there,just enclosing some of the response i got after the letter of appeal with rejected-




"""We have been retained by the hospital to specifically clamp those parkers not displaying a valid pay and display ticket or parking without displaying a valid permit.

Prior to purchasing a parking ticket we allow 30 minutes grace time in order for people to obtain change to feed the meter, which has been agreed with the hospital is sufficient time to obtain change.

In this case, unfortunately by your own admission, you were not displaying a valid Parking Ticket which is an absolute requirement of the Hospital and is highly displayed on the signage in situ.

I am afraid in these circumstances I am unwilling to make a refund in this case as we were carrying out exactly what we had been instructed to do. You should appreciate that there is a cost to us each time we apply a clamp and then return the officer to declamp.

You may refer your appeal to our Independent Appeals Officer who is a third party with no commercial relationship with Euro Car Parks. Details of this service are below : """"





And so thats it really,as you can see we had admitted at the time of event unbeknowingly to us of the changes not paid and displayed but upon realising we had proceeded to do so but were not allowed even though we were within the time allowed as admitted by EuroCarparks before putting a sticker on the window.

For those who are not familiar with the Hospital grounds,the units are way up the back far from the main hospital and resemble an old state nursing home with around 15 spaces for cars to park which on any occassion i have visited were less than 50% full and the staff park there too.

Might i add one of the staff nurses had her clamped the previous week and goes to prove how bad it is,wasn`t she informed,pure badness.

And it`s great the Hospital get the money true,but my grans pension goes to them too.

I can`t fully remember how visible the signs are but there was 3 people in the car and we parked near the end of the row so we had a good few yards to walk and not one of us saw the signs in that time,i do remember them to be higher than i would expect but thats all i can recollect about them.

Keep your thoughts coming i`m still not sure what to do,but the appeal department is lets say looking less appealing.

si_guru

Bond-007 wrote: »

Not a case in a court of record. Means nothing.

Are you suggestng it is okay to break a law as long as nobody has been prosecuted fo that law?

Our man in Havana

What law?

Mr. Presentable

"we allow 30 minutes grace time in order for people to obtain change to feed the meter"

OP, this means you must return within 30 minutes to feed the meter. You returned within 15 but did not feed the meter. You have misunderstood the quote and the clampers are right in their action according to the terms you refer.

squod

Could OP have stood in front of the van 'till the clamp was removed? Really can't see a reason why destroying the clamp would be be criminal. It's the choice of the clamper to put in on your vehicle.
Unless there was proof of contract between the OP and the clamper, there is no case to answer.

Our man in Havana

Unless there was proof of contract between the OP and the clamper, there is no case to answer.

And the clampers are not too keen to have this tested in the courts as a negative result would destroy their entire business. Also any alleged contract would between the landowner and the driver not the clampers and the driver.

squod

Bond-007 wrote: »

And the clampers are not too keen to have this tested in the courts as a negative result would destroy their entire business. Also any alleged contract would between the landowner and the driver not the clampers and the driver.

I'm suggesting the exchange of money for piracy clamping would have to be agreed to by the owner and the clamper. Any exchange of money between the landowner and the clamper would be a seperate issue.

maidhc

squod wrote: »

Could OP have stood in front of the van 'till the clamp was removed? Really can't see a reason why destroying the clamp would be be criminal.

I would imagine that if you first asked the clamp be removed, and your request was denied you would be entitled to use such force as necessary to remove the clamp. I am not quoting any law here, just extrapolating from how law deals with property in general.

I did a search for that case alluded to above. It doesn't seem to show up on any databases, a reference would be great.