Stoke City Vs Liverpool

flahavaj

Kess73 wrote: »

That's all he has played in, so as a Liverpool supporter those are the games that I will judge him on. Would be stupid of me to call him a poor or substandard player based on how he was in Scotland years ago.

Now fair enough if a Ranger's fan came out and said that he was crap for Rangers based on the games he played for Rangers. That's fine as it is judging a player on what he did at that club, but judging him as a Liverpool player based on what he did in Scotland is a bit silly, especially as it totally ignores the fact that he was well regarded for how he did at Frankfurt and at AEK Athens, which was after his time in Scotland.

The way I see it people can regard him as they like based on how he was four clubs ago. It is up to them if that is how they judge the player whilst disregarding how he was rated at his two clubs after Rangers.

As for me, well I will continue judging a Liverpool player based on how he performs in his games for Liverpool, and nowhere else.

So you have to support Rangers to have a view on his form for them? You lads are in flying form today.

How many of those Frankfurt or AEK Athens games did you see btw? "Well regarded" by whom? Thought you only cared about his performances for liverpool anyway?

Kess73

flahavaj wrote: »

Ridiculous statement tbf.

You're saying that his poor performances in the SPL a mickey mouse league have ni bearing on his ability to perform in an elite league like the Prem? Just bacsue you "don't care" doesn't mean it isn't relevant.

I never said hes been terrible, but nor has he done anything that great and has looked shaky for ye anytime I've seen him.

I never said he was great either, I just argued that his games at Rangers mean nothing in the context of him being judged as a Liverpool player, nothing at all. His Liverpool games will decide how he is judged as a Liverpool player, nothing else will.

The only thing that his games at Rangers can be used for is for judging how he was for them.

As for using the time at Rangers as a means to evaluate him as a player, well that method is also worthless unless his games since then at Frankfurt and AEK Athens are also taken into consideration.

noodler

flahavaj wrote: »

And hes already dropped a monumental clanger in one of those, one that effectively put ye out of Europe. Ya, hes been savage.:rolleyes:

Jesus you sound like a serious fairweather Liverpool fan there. There were 5 other games that cost us our CL place and, as already pointed out, there were a comedy of errors leading to the Lyon goal - not just him.

flahavaj wrote: »

Not really, just going on what I've seen, as oppposed to trawling wiki and trying to bring Celtic into it for some bizarre reason.

When did I trawl Wiki? Go look for the quote.

Bizarre statement altogether. Basically one Liverpool performance against Lyon and a couple for Rnagers years ago are the sum of 'what you've seen'.

flahavaj

noodler wrote: »

Jesus you sound like a serious fairweather Liverpool fan there. There were 5 other games that cost us our CL place and, as already pointed out, there were a comedy of errors leading to the Lyon goal - not just him.

First a Celtic fan , now a Liverpool fan. You really have a low opinion of me noodler.:pac:

When did I trawl Wiki? Go look for the quote.

Bizarre statement altogether. Basically one Liverpool performance against Lyon and a couple for Rnagers years ago are the sum of 'what you've seen'.

The wiki comment was tongue in cheek.

I've seen all his pool performances, several of his games in Scotland. Certainly more than enough to form an opinion of him.

Give it time, you'll soon agree with me, believe me.

applehunter

Good point made by Tony Cascarino in the Racing Post today.

Maybe it is time to sell the "crown jewels" while Liverpool have a chance.

£25 for Gerrard
£50 + for Torres

and build the team from the proceeds because the longer the time passes the power will be in the players hands.

Barcelona, Man. Utd., Juventus all are noted for selling their senior stars for the right price so why not Liverpool.

One way of solving the cash crisis.

Kess73

noodler wrote: »

Jesus you sound like a serious fairweather Liverpool fan there. There were 5 other games that cost us our CL place and, as already pointed out, there were a comedy of errors leading to the Lyon goal - not just him.



When did I trawl Wiki? Go look for the quote.

Bizarre statement altogether. Basically one Liverpool performance against Lyon and a couple for Rnagers years ago are the sum of 'what you've seen'.

Noodler, it is a waste of time talking with him, all he is doing is trying to get a reaction.

He is back to his tactic of trying to make out the other person made a durect statement about him or acting obtuse on some of what was said to him. Hence him being obtuse in how he took my comment about a Ranger's fan judging a Rangers player.

Best leave him to what he tries to do, because it is not worth a ban reacting to his type.

Glico Man

applehunter wrote: »

Good point made by Tony Cascarino in the Racing Post today.

Maybe it is time to sell the "crown jewels" while Liverpool have a chance.

£25 for Gerrard
£50 + for Torres

and build the team from the proceeds because the longer the time passes the power will be in the players hands.

Barcelona, Man. Utd., Juventus all are noted for selling their senior stars for the right price so why not Liverpool.

One way of solving the cash crisis.

Cascarino never makes a good point.

While they still can? I'm pretty sure Torres is only 26, and hasn't even reached his peak years yet. There will be plenty of teams interested in Torres, no matter how bad the team are playing.

applehunter

Time is inexorable.

His contract will run out.

Isn't the problem that there is no cash at the club?

flahavaj

Kess73 wrote: »

Noodler, it is a waste of time talking with him, all he is doing is trying to get a reaction.

He is back to his tactic of trying to make out the other person made a durect statement about him or acting obtuse on some of what was said to him. Hence him being obtuse in how he took my comment about a Ranger's fan judging a Rangers player.

Best leave him to what he tries to do, because it is not worth a ban reacting to his type.

I'm not looking for a reaction, I just disagree with you and the rather flimsy argument you're using to make your point. It is a discussion board after all.

jesus_thats_gre

Selling Gerrard for 30m can be justified. Selling Torres for 50m would be lunacy. Selling him for 100+m could be justified.

Kess73

jesus_thats_gre wrote: »

Selling Gerrard for 30m can be justified. Selling Torres for 50m would be lunacy. Selling him for 100+m could be justified.

Would totally agree with that.

The Muppet

Much as i rate Torres thats a totally unrealistic valuation. who's going to pay £100 million for an injury prone player?

Spiritoftheseventies

jesus_thats_gre wrote: »

Selling Gerrard for 30m can be justified. Selling Torres for 50m would be lunacy. Selling him for 100+m could be justified.

I would be loathe to sell either and especially torres. As mentioned before It took us ages to find a player as good as Torres. Those who followed before him were nowhere near his quality. and Just look at Robinho. Has struggled to adapt despite the huge price tag on his head.

NukaCola

Didn't see the game today...
Just seen the line up though.
Did Rafa play 6 Defenders 2 Defensive Midfielders and 2 Strikers in a 4-5-1 formation? Holy f uck!!

Kess73

BumbleBee123 wrote: »

Didn't see the game today...
Just seen the line up though.
Did Rafa play 6 Defenders 2 Defensive Midfielders and 2 Strikers in a 4-5-1 formation? Holy f uck!!

Was more 4-4-2 with Degan and Aurelio as the wide men, although it went to 3-5-2 at times during the game

Mental Mickey

Jaysus, that was complete s***e today. It just shows how reliant the team, and Benitez, are on Gerrard & a visibly knackered Torres.

There are a lot of players that played today that simply are not good enough..and they're all Benitez signings.

I think he needs to be replaced at the end of the season, and he should take a lot of those players with him.

Guus Hiddink to replace him imo.

flahavaj

The Muppet wrote: »

Much as i rate Torres thats a totally unrealistic valuation. who's going to pay £100 million for an injury prone player?

100% agreed, the injuries seem to hav been getting more and more frequent the last 2 years and would be a definite worry for someone looking to fork out upwards of 60 million for a player.

NukaCola

Kess73 wrote: »

Was more 4-4-2 with Degan and Aurelio as the wide men, although it went to 3-5-2 at times during the game

Sounds horrible...

Mental Mickey

BumbleBee123 wrote: »

Sounds horrible...

It was.

SantryRed

The Muppet wrote: »

Much as i rate Torres thats a totally unrealistic valuation. who's going to pay £100 million for an injury prone player?

City obviously... They'll probably give you an extra 20 for the laugh.

noodler

Jesus, it was the most heart weve shown in a while IMO!

Mr Alan

i actually didnt think today was a bad performance from such a depleted side tbh & we should have won.

guess i'm the exception.

noodler

Mr Alan wrote: »

i actually didnt think today was a bad performance from such a depleted side tbh & we should have won.

guess i'm the exception.

Much the better team to be frank. Stoke didn't come into it until the last 10 or 15.

Mr Alan

that ref is fast becoming one of my "most hated" as well.

Spiritoftheseventies

Yeah watching the highlights now. Skrtel struggled but Degen another decent game down the right. Desperately unlucky from Kuyt at the end.

flahavaj

bayviewclose wrote: »

Yeah watching the highlights now. Skrtel struggled but Degen another decent game down the right. Desperately unlucky from Kuyt at the end.

He really should hav eburied it from there, open goal.

The cross was absolutely brilliant though.

Spiritoftheseventies

flahavaj wrote: »

He really should hav eburied it from there, open goal.

The cross was absolutely brilliant though.

Yes one of those days. Skrtel just doesnt look secure at the back at all.

flahavaj

bayviewclose wrote: »

Yes one of those days. Skrtel just doesnt look secure at the back at all.

Then you're agreed he wasn't unlucky?

PHB

jesus_thats_gre wrote: »

Selling Gerrard for 30m can be justified. Selling Torres for 50m would be lunacy. Selling him for 100+m could be justified.

That only applies if he is willing to renew his contract again and again.

Spiritoftheseventies

flahavaj wrote: »

Then you're agreed he wasn't unlucky?

No one of those days overall. As for Kuyt he was unlucky. Ball could have gone either side of the post.

flahavaj

bayviewclose wrote: »

No one of those days overall. As for Kuyt he was unlucky. Ball could have gone either side of the post.

He basically missed an open goal with a free header. Thats not bad luck for a professional footballer in fairness.

jesus_thats_gre

The Muppet wrote: »

Much as i rate Torres thats a totally unrealistic valuation. who's going to pay £100 million for an injury prone player?

I didn't say that I valued him at 100m. I said that it would only make sense to let him move to competitor if that sort of figure was involved.

jesus_thats_gre

PHB wrote: »

That only applies if he is willing to renew his contract again and again.

I didn't exactly put more than 30 seconds into thinking about it but you get my point I am sure.

Mr.Nice Guy

Really dismal game of football up until the last 10 minutes but no real quality on offer. Liverpool were a tad unfortunate but still should have put Stoke away. They just don't seem to have anyone there to step up to the plate when Gerrard and Torres or out. Think it was Lawrenson who said if they didn't have those two players they'd struggle to be top half and on today's evidence it's hard to argue otherwise.

mormank

noodler wrote: »

Take the CAPS elsewhere kid. The team battled exceptionally well today.

Maybe you want it pretty at the Britannia but not even Arsenal manage that, much less with their best three front players out.

im sorry dude but the caps were to get across just how shocked i was that anyone was very happy with that performance. ok perhaps you (and i mean you, not people in general) cannot fault the players put out for effort, however at the very least you have to agree that rafa got his tactics worng for this match and his substitutions were too little too late

kida

to actually see how bad pool were take a look at the guardian chalkboards - fantastic tool.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/blog/2010/jan/17/premier-league-chalkboards

Did the absence of Steven Gerrard in midfield prompt Liverpool to try and imitate Stoke's long-ball game? Neither side brought an immaculate passing display to the Britannia Stadium, but the away side misplaced almost twice as many passes from open play as their more 'agricultural' hosts.

when was the last time Liverpool didn't win a corner in a game?

Mitch Connor

flahavaj wrote: »

He basically missed an open goal with a free header. Thats not bad luck for a professional footballer in fairness.

IIRC it wasn't free - he had the defender on top of him didn't he?

SWAR

kida wrote: »

to actually see how bad pool were take a look at the guardian chalkboards - fantastic tool.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/blog/2010/jan/17/premier-league-chalkboards


when was the last time Liverpool didn't win a corner in a game?

Stoke (A) last Saturday

Spiritoftheseventies

kida wrote: »

to actually see how bad pool were take a look at the guardian chalkboards - fantastic tool.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/blog/2010/jan/17/premier-league-chalkboards

My head hurts

kida

Spiritoftheseventies wrote: »

My head hurts

Can be a bit daunting at first but you can look at what individual players do in a game.

Spiritoftheseventies

kida wrote: »

Can be a bit daunting at first but you can look at what individual players do in a game.

agreed. But i think what is clear is that Pool players are just not getting into their head what Rafa is telling them. have you seen the amount of notes he takes during the games.
Something is obviously being lost in translation.

Columbia

Didn't see the game as I was on my way to Goodison, but it seems like even Liverpool should have hung on against Stoke City

I really do fear Man City offering silly money for Torres. The people in charge over there really are just that stupid that they'd give their, and our, rivals for next season £120-odd million to throw around.

Do people here think Torres would even go to City? Do people trust Rafa to be able to replace Torres if he went? Straight swap, Torres for Robinho?

SlickRic

Mr Alan wrote: »

that ref is fast becoming one of my "most hated" as well.

yeah. he seems to have some sort of problem with us alright.

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

Really dismal game of football up until the last 10 minutes but no real quality on offer. Liverpool were a tad unfortunate but still should have put Stoke away. They just don't seem to have anyone there to step up to the plate when Gerrard and Torres or out. Think it was Lawrenson who said if they didn't have those two players they'd struggle to be top half and on today's evidence it's hard to argue otherwise.

to be fair, we haven't been great with them either.

Torres has had a decent season, injuries aside.

Gerrard has been appalling.

terrible game of football alright though. nobody had an interest in keeping the ball besides Masch, Lucas and surprisingly Kuyt. this is the main problem again with us; no compsure whatsoever on the ball apart from a select few. and dirk's not normally one of them.

Spiritoftheseventies

Spiritoftheseventies wrote: »

My head hurts

Why did they show all the unsuccessful passes pool made when the count was 196 passes made as to 76 passes that weren't. Agreed it would have been more difficult to graph but a bit of balance there. Can tell you for most part where we are going wrong. People not reading crosses properly. At this stage is it too much to ask a player to make proper contact with ball when it is played in to the box.

SlickRic

Spiritoftheseventies wrote: »

Why did they show all the unsuccessful passes pool made when the count was 196 passes made as to 76 passes that weren't.

i would have thought 76 misplaced passes is pretty f*cking horrendous though.

Prufrock

SlickRic wrote: »

terrible game of football alright though. nobody had an interest in keeping the ball besides Masch, Lucas and surprisingly Kuyt. this is the main problem again with us; no compsure whatsoever on the ball apart from a select few. and dirk's not normally one of them.

Masch tried but it's not his game keeping the ball. There was one instance where Liverpool had a free kick at half way and he just knocked a long ball into the arms of the Stoke keeper. Awful.

Also Liverpool created very few chances. Aside from Kuyt hitting the post on 94 mins when did Liverpool put stoke under pressure? Even the goal came from nothing. Sure Liverpool tried but it's still not good enough by their own standards.

noodler

Prufrock wrote: »

Masch tried but it's not his game keeping the ball. There was one instance where Liverpool had a free kick at half way and he just knocked a long ball into the arms of the Stoke keeper. Awful.

Also Liverpool created very few chances. Aside from Kuyt hitting the post on 94 mins when did Liverpool put stoke under pressure? Even the goal came from nothing. Sure Liverpool tried but it's still not good enough by their own standards.

On instance of an overhit pass in a game is hardly something to beat him with, is it? I take your point though. This team does go long far too often in general.

We controlled the vast majority of the game on Saturday to be perfectly honest. Chances were extremely few and far between I openly admit but, and I know I am repeating myself here, I never ever thought we were going to go to the Britannia with that team and ripe Stoke a new one.

I was pleased with the overall performance, was disappointed we couldn't get hold of the ball in the last 10 minutes but was even more disappointed ewith the ref. I don't believe he hates Liverpool but maybe he is just a homer (Craven Cottage, Fratton Park and now the Britannia).

More of the fight shown on Saturday in future game when we have a bit more craft back in the side and I believe we will get fourth.

Prufrock

noodler wrote: »

One instance of an overhit pass in a game is hardly something to beat him with, is it? I take your point though. This team does go long far too often in general.

Masch did play well in general. He broke up Stokes play well. Just the long ball option was used too often by both teams. Stoke were just as bad. Every time they got the ball they lumped it up to the tall fella.

kida

noodler wrote: »

We controlled the vast majority of the game on Saturday to be perfectly honest. Chances were extremely few and far between I openly admit but, and I know I am repeating myself here, I never ever thought we were going to go to the Britannia with that team and ripe Stoke a new one.

controlling the game is not generally a problem - especially with 2 sitting midfielders - unfortunately that also leads to a lot of passing from them to CB'S and FB'S and back to CM's again - Saturday was even worse than usual as the wingers were FBs also

noodler

kida wrote: »

controlling the game is not generally a problem

Its been a problem this season!

kida wrote: »

-Saturday was even worse than usual as the wingers were FBs also

Never have any qualms about Aurelio at LMF or LB and Degen did okay.