Ireland, united and free!

blinding

We should send up all the unemployed and just take over the place.

A sort of a reverse plantation if you like.

If they did it to us why can't we do it to them.

It would'nt even be real emmigration;)

And the British might even let them claim the dole and housing benefit as well.

It would keep loads of people busy. I think I would go into the Undertaker and coffin making business.

walrusgumble

blinding wrote: »

We should send up all the unemployed and just take over the place.

A sort of a reverse plantation if you like.

If they did it to us why can't we do it to them.

It would'nt even be real emmigration;)

And the British might even let them claim the dole and housing benefit as well.

It would keep loads of people busy. I think I would go into the Undertaker and coffin making business.

Respectively, with ignorant comments like that, you might be your first customer.

getz

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Create a united and get the English to pay for it, at a time when the English are already pissed off at having to foot the bill for Scotland, Wales and NI? It would be political suicide for whoever agrees it and would be soon changed at the next election.

Ireland's best hope is even more money from the EU, although hopefully that won't be squandered next time.

yes but dont forget the british tax payer paid for that as well.

Sleepy

My daughter will be paying enough in tax due to NAMA, don't ask me to even countenance adding NI to her future financial woes.

getz

Sleepy wrote: »

My daughter will be paying enough in tax due to NAMA, don't ask me to even countenance adding NI to her future financial woes.

just think how we feel in the UK, for every man woman and child we are paying[this year] into the EU £1,000,to prop up other states ,no wonder we are in a mess.

DublinWriter

junder wrote: »

Well this is one loyalist that does not see a united ireland as inevitabul, I certianly don't believe i will ever see a united ireland in my life time, and i am not an old man. Moreover there is nothing that will convince me to want to be part of a united ireland. As somebody has already pointed out on this thread or another is that the biggest mistake those of you that live in the republic of ireland make in realtionship to northern ireland is trying to apply rational normal every day politics to life in northern ireland

I don't see a united Ireland as inevitable either myself.

For the record, what do you consider yourself to be, nationality wise?

Sleepy

getz wrote: »

just think how we feel in the UK, for every man woman and child we are paying[this year] into the EU £1,000,to prop up other states ,no wonder we are in a mess.

Take a look at the French sometime and you'll feel better. They pump billions into their former colonies which are now regarded as being no different to mainland France.

junder

DublinWriter wrote: »

I don't see a united Ireland as inevitable either myself.

For the record, what do you consider yourself to be, nationality wise?

I see myself as British

DublinWriter

junder wrote: »

I see myself as British

Do you see yourself as being Irish/Northern Irish at all?

The reason I ask is that I always find it a bit curious how most Unionists deny that they are Irish as all, a bit like someone being born in Wales stating that
they're not Welsh but British, or a bit like me saying I'm not Irish, but European.

LordSutch

DublinWriter wrote: »

Do you see yourself as being Irish/Northern Irish at all? The reason I ask is that I always find it a bit curious how most Unionists deny that they are Irish as all, a bit like someone being born in Wales stating that they're not Welsh but British, or a bit like me saying I'm not Irish, but European.

I think you'll find that most Irish Unionists are Irish (but in a British context)! in the same way as the majority of Scots & Welsh are also British whilst being distinctly proud of their own Countries/regions within. Personally I see the 'British badge' as meaing a 'belonging to' a larger family & cultural identity, (which includes the English, Scots, Welsh & many Irish people too). Ian Paisley has said in the past that he is a proud Irish man, needless to say if anyone told him that he was not British he would strongly protest

P.S. Ireland is free, and free to do what it likes!

junder

DublinWriter wrote: »

Do you see yourself as being Irish/Northern Irish at all?

The reason I ask is that I always find it a bit curious how most Unionists deny that they are Irish as all, a bit like someone being born in Wales stating that
they're not Welsh but British, or a bit like me saying I'm not Irish, but European.

My identy is a little more complex as i am half English, I do regard myself as Northern Irish, and i do not deny that i have a irish dimension to my identy but i do not see myself as irish. I see myself as Ulster-scot because i have a family history that goes back to scotland from the time of the plantations, my family being one of the more famous reiver clans exiled from scotland by king james.

http://www.borderreivers.co.uk/

http://www.sorbie.net/border_reivers.htm

oppenheimer1

lugha wrote: »

The majority (or even a sizable minority for that matter) of Unionist will never. ever agree to a UI. That has about the same chance of happening as a majority of Nationalists agreeing to being ruled by Britain again. It simply will not happen, nor is it required to happen. It is only necessary for a majority in NI to vote yes. Every single Unionist could conceivably say no, but a UI could still happen if a sufficient number of Nationalists said yes. If Unionists could be persuaded to partake in a UI it would be a different matter, but they can't be persuaded and never will be.

The majority of the unionist population will never agree, but in years to come, I hope people won't define themselves as either. We are a good bit away from it yet but I'm hoping the secularisation of society will in general break down those barriers.

As for what shape a united Ireland would take, well there would have to be wholesale changes in the political structures,probably looking at some sort of federal country based on the provinces in order that the unionists will have a substantial say in how their corner is run. We may have to rejoin the commonwealth or perhaps give up our president as head of state. A united Ireland wouldn't be an overnight thing either, when the mood seems right I would expect the UK government to start the process of convergence, possibly 10 years before a vote, and have a total withdrawl over a possible further 5 to 7 years. I'm guessing the hand-over of Hong Kong would be an example of how it would be handled.

A united Ireland could happen sooner than we think though as the Union itself will be in big trouble if Scotland secedes. Considering that the tories are looking likely to win the next election, a referendum on the question certainly isn't out of the question. Without Scotland, England would probably like to be on its own, and you may end up with a loose federation of nations, with the possibility of the only link being common foreign and security policy (if even that). In that situation I don't think the english would like to have NI being an expensive leech. Having looked at some unionist forums it seemse to be something they are worried about.

I'm guessing it may be 20 years before the first plebiscite, as the current crop of bigots (all sides) will have to be replaced by moderates before progress can be made. All we can hope for is that something doesn't happen in the mean time to radicalise the young people or we will be back to the start again.

Dr. Baltar

A United Ireland - that is an Ireland entirely ruled from Dublin will not happen in our lifetime, nor in the lifetime of our great-grandchildren.
Unionists will not agree to become apart of that state.

The closest one could hope for is a united Ireland with devolved status for the North.

Jim236

lugha wrote: »

For example, in reference to the thread title, “free” from what? Who will acquire a freedom to do something in a UI that would be impossible to attain through Stormont?

Free from British rule, how is that not obvious?

lugha wrote: »

How will the massive public sector pay bill in the North be paid?

It'd obviously have to be cut, but you also have to take into account that people in the North would be paying tax like everyone else in the other 26 counties. Also a huge amount of money(billions) would be saved by eliminating the duplication of public services that exists atm, which would be one of many economic benefits of a United Ireland.

If Sinn Féin had any sense though they'd be trying to reduce Stormont's reliance on British subventions, instead they're agreeing to increases in it, which will only hinder their chances of winning the economic debate on any United Ireland.

lugha wrote: »

Will we retain our PR system with just a clutter of extra constituencies for NI? Isn't it probable that substantial political concessions will be made to Unionists which they might subsequently use to frustrate the workings of the new state?

Doesn't the North already use the same PR system as us?

Regarding Unionist concessions, I doubt they'll get many. The time for concessions is now, because by the time any referendum is held on a United Ireland there'd have to be a realistic chance of achieving a YES vote. When that happens, Unionists will have missed the boat on getting any concessions and won't be in any position to be calling the shots.

lugha wrote: »

On what basis is the claim made that a UI will put an end to tribal politics?

Has any serious thought gone into how to deal with the threat of a Loyalist backlash, other than to say we won't be dictated to by terrorists?

I doubt it'll truely end all tribal politics in the North. But the Irish Army is the one of the best trained armies in the world, and has direct experience in outside conflicts such as Kosovo, Lebanon and Liberia. But if another troubles breaks out in the North over the issue, then I hope the Irish government will not make the same mistake the British government made in 1969, and will call in UN peacekeepers to deal with the situation.

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

In my opinion, most people south of the border want nothing to do with the North.

Thats your opinion but its clearly not fact because according to a Sunday Business Post poll in 2006, 80% want a United Ireland.

http://archives.tcm.ie/businesspost/2006/04/02/story13121.asp

Also According to a 2001 Guardian poll, 41% of people in Britain also support a United Ireland.

http://www.4ni.co.uk/northern_ireland_news.asp?id=13422

DublinWriter wrote: »

More interesting still is the planned ballot in Scotland this year to be held by the SNP to determine if the Scottish people want to break from the Union and become a Republic. Should Scotland leave the Union, how feasible is a potentially fractious Union of just England, Wales and Northern Ireland?

There won't be a referendum as the Unionist parties blocked the referendum bill, so unless the SNP can get a majaority in the next Scottish elections, they'll still be in the UK for the next few years at least.

DublinWriter

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

The majority of the unionist population will never agree, but in years to come, I hope people won't define themselves as either. We are a good bit away from it yet but I'm hoping the secularisation of society will in general break down those barriers.

Man is inherently tribal by nature, I don't see that changing anytime soon.

I personally dislike the tricolour as a national flag and prefer the older Fenian gold harp on a plain blue or green background.

Unionists do not want any hand, act or part in this state, so why we insist on representing their culture via one-third of our flag is beyond me.

The most we can hope for after hundreds of years of dysfunctional history is to live as good neighbours, remove violence from politics and respect the civil rights of our respective minority citizens and subjects.

Jim236

Btw some people might be interested in this: http://www.londonirishunityconference.org/

Sinn Féin will be hosting a conference on Irish Unity in London on 20th February. Speakers to include:

Sinn Féin President, Gerry Adams
Former Mayor of London, Ken Livingston
British Labour MP, Diane Abbott
British Labour MP, Jeremy Corbyn
British Cllr and anti-war activist, Salma Yaqoob
Unite union Ireland Secretary, Jimmy Kelly
Irish Times columnist, David Adams
GAA member, Jarlath Burns
National Industrial Secretary of SIPTU, Mick Halpenny
Historian, Prof Christine Kinealy
Unison official, Patricia McKeown

Jim236

DublinWriter wrote: »

I personally dislike the tricolour as a national flag and prefer the older Fenian gold harp on a plain blue or green background.

How can you dislike a flag that clearly stands for peace between Catholics and Protestants? Surely thats more representative of the orange tradition than a blue flag with a gold harp, which btw is already used by the President.

Happy Monday

Jim236 wrote: »

Btw some people might be interested in this: http://www.londonirishunityconference.org/

Sinn Féin will be hosting a conference on Irish Unity in London on 20th February. Speakers to include:

Sinn Féin President, Gerry Adams
Former Mayor of London, Ken Livingston
British Labour MP, Diane Abbott
British Labour MP, Jeremy Corbyn
British Cllr and anti-war activist, Salma Yaqoob
Unite union Ireland Secretary, Jimmy Kelly
Irish Times columnist, David Adams
GAA member, Jarlath Burns
National Industrial Secretary of SIPTU, Mick Halpenny
Historian, Prof Christine Kinealy
Unison official, Patricia McKeown

These speakers demonstrate why Irish unity is still so far away.
The topic remains the preserve of the radical, the leftists and extreme once physical force republicans.

This has to change and maybe in time it will.
The people listed above would in many cases want Ireland to leave the EU as well.

Ain't going to happen - until people from the great majority in both parts of the island are involved in this discussion and persuaded of its benefits a United Ireland will not happen.

lugha

DublinWriter wrote: »

Man is inherently tribal by nature, I don't see that changing anytime soon.

Absolutely. It is strange that you would risk being assaulted if you suggested to even a mild mannered nationalist that we might rejoin the commonwealth or in some other way, restore any political links with Britain. But the same people seem to think that Unionist is some kind of a phase that them up there are going through, and eventually they will grow out of it. :rolleyes:

DublinWriter wrote: »

I personally dislike the tricolour as a national flag and prefer the older Fenian gold harp on a plain blue or green background.

I agree. Apart from the fact that the tricolor has been hijacked by physical (ok formerly :P) physical force republicanism, the symbolism of the flag is a nonsense. Unionists clearly want no truck with a united Ireland and the tripe that Nationalists wheel out, that they would welcome Unionists playing a role in a UI is clearly a blatant lie.
Perhaps we should paint a "peace" wall on to the white part? :P
I like the idea of a harp on a green background I must say? (Why would you suggest blue? )

Sleepy

Because Blue is actually our national colour.

Zambia

junder wrote: »

I see myself as British

So is like, you here on holiday http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eCNG5UeKMZw&feature=related? :rolleyes:

Sorry mate I will tell you what I tell the wife you cant make up nationality's you are Irish. Just like a person who is from Wales is welsh not British, they may be a British citizen but they are not British.

Case in piont when you go to England and someone says "Your Irish arent you" do you say "No I'm British".

Saying your Irish does not make you disloyal to Britain.

Even though on your Passport and your Profile note that its the Kingdom of great Britain and Northern Ireland. So even her Majesty does not see Northern Ireland as Britain.

Exile 1798

lugha wrote: »

I agree. Apart from the fact that the tricolor has been hijacked by physical (ok formerly :P) physical force republicanism, the symbolism of the flag is a nonsense. Unionists clearly want no truck with a united Ireland and the tripe that Nationalists wheel out, that they would welcome Unionists playing a role in a UI is clearly a blatant lie.
Perhaps we should paint a "peace" wall on to the white part? :P
I like the idea of a harp on a green background I must say? (Why would you suggest blue? )

How is it possible that physical force Republicanism has "hijacked" the flag when the flag itself was created, brought to Ireland and popularised by physical force Republicans?

Wouldn't it be more accurate to say it's been co-opted by constitutional Nationalism?

junder

Zambia232 wrote: »

So is like, you here on holiday http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eCNG5UeKMZw&feature=related? :rolleyes:

Sorry mate I will tell you what I tell the wife you cant make up nationality's you are Irish. Just like a person who is from Wales is welsh not British, they may be a British citizen but they are not British.

Case in piont when you go to England and someone says "Your Irish arent you" do you say "No I'm British".

Saying your Irish does not make you disloyal to Britain.

Even though on your Passport and your Profile note that its the Kingdom of great Britain and Northern Ireland. So even her Majesty does not see Northern Ireland as Britain.

Don't come from Ireland so how can i be Irish? A point that has been gone over and over and over and over again, i am well aware that i don't live in Great Britain, i do however, as you have already pointed out live in the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland tha nationality of which is British er and since i am a citizen (and yes it is citizen and not subject) of the UK er go i am British

lugha

Exile 1798 wrote: »

How is it possible that physical force Republicanism has "hijacked" the flag when the flag itself was created, brought to Ireland and popularised by physical force Republicans?

Wouldn't it be more accurate to say it's been co-opted by constitutional Nationalism?

I'm sure you know what I mean. Whatever about its history, the tricolor was adopted as the Irish flag by the Irish people. Most people would be proclaiming their nationality when they wave their national flag. In Ireland, for the last couple of decades, you would be proclaiming an association with Sinn Fein or the IRA.

rovert

Lads it is 2010

Nationalism is such an outdated concept. It shouldnt be a primary driver for a major decision such as this. Like it or not the Brits are doing us a favour by bank rolling N.I.

Zambia

junder wrote: »

Don't come from Ireland so how can i be Irish? A point that has been gone over and over and over and over again, i am well aware that i don't live in Great Britain, i do however, as you have already pointed out live in the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland tha nationality of which is British er and since i am a citizen (and yes it is citizen and not subject) of the UK er go i am British

Before Irish Independence people in the north where Irish in the united kingdom when partition occured did they suddenly stop being Irish.

Are we that horrible that you want to distance yourself from us?

I am entitled to a British passport, if I took it would I stop being Irish of course not I would be a British Passport holder.

junder

Zambia232 wrote: »

Before Irish Independence people in the north where Irish in the united kingdom when partition occured did they suddenly stop being Irish.

Are we that horrible that you want to distance yourself from us?

I am entitled to a British passport, if I took it would I stop being Irish of course not I would be a British Passport holder.

Yes before independence many unionists may indeed have referred to themselves as irish, but since 1921 most northern irish unionists do not see themselves as irish any longer espically those of us born after 1921. Personly i don't have any problem with the irish, live and let live i say, it just annoys me when they try and force thier identy on to me.

DoireNod

lugha wrote: »

I'm sure you know what I mean. Whatever about its history, the tricolor was adopted as the Irish flag by the Irish people. Most people would be proclaiming their nationality when they wave their national flag. In Ireland, for the last couple of decades, you would be proclaiming an association with Sinn Fein or the IRA.

So when I go to an Ireland match and wave a tricolour I'm proclaiming an association with the IRA? What about all those kids on St Patrick's Day who paint their faces green, white and orange? Are they all in association with the IRA? You can't be serious surely?

lugha

DoireNod wrote: »

So when I go to an Ireland match and wave a tricolour I'm proclaiming an association with the IRA? What about all those kids on St Patrick's Day who paint their faces green, white and orange? Are they all in association with the IRA? You can't be serious surely?

Well of course it isn’t universal. There are undoubtedly many people who are unaware that we have lost our flag to Sinn Fein, or who don’t care, or who perhaps have taken the advice of John A. Murphy who has argued that we reclaim it. But there are plenty of people like me who have seen our flag become more an emblem for modern republicans that for our state, and have consequently shied away from embracing it.
Anyway, I wouldn’t get too attached to it. When your glorious united Ireland comes, surely you know that the flag (and the national anthem) will go?

RiverWilde

Why on earth would the 6 counties want to leave the UK? For what? To join a country that is badly run, corrupt to the core and practically bankrupt both economically and morally?

Ah no I can't see it happening anytime soon.

Riv