A Sickening State Farce - Fianna Fail's last Laugh At The Public.

Biggins

Yet again we are it appears going to be treated to a state farce.
As I called to attention on another thread, the joke that will be called the "Irish Banks Inquiry" is going to be undermined, controlled and it scope conveniently limited from the very start.

Fianna Fail (in my opinion) is attempting (and more than likely succeed with) a whitewash of what happened.
It been stated this morning that Brian Cowen will be avoiding questioning over his supervision of the banking sector as Finance Minister while the whole farce was going on.
A man that was DIRECTLY at the heart of the matter will not be questioned - how fcukin' crazy an inquiry from the get-go can you get!
To make matters worse, FF want the damn thing held in secret - behind closed doors!
To many, this comes as no surprise - as its already been shown that many members of FF have their dirty hands buried in the whole mess and are up to their necks involved.
RTE's "Primetime" a number of weeks ago showed this alone. Some of those from Fianna Fail involved include Councillor Sean McCarthy, Senator Francie O'Brien, Senator Don Lydon, Charlie McCreevy and even Bertie Ahern's then other half!
(Follow-up example newspaper story HERE)

Fianna Fail before they get their asses kicked in the next election, are having one final big laugh and once again treating the public with the same disregarding contempt that they now are renowned for.
Its a state organised cover-up - and we deserve it, for we are letting them get away with it.
Those that sit around the top table of FF know broadly who is involved. What have they come up with?
Probably an inquiry that will limit the range of areas that can be looked into, who can be looked into and areas that are off limits. Convenient eh?

Personally I think its a fcuking disgrace! :mad:

Cowen to escape grilling - story HERE

Example report of secret inquiry: HERE and HERE

P.S.
Don't forget, YOU as a tax payer will be paying for this waste of an inquiry.
It will be your tax money that is going to be uselessly thrown away.
Two of the involved DEVELOPERS have already or this in this week, doing a runner to countries that have little or no extradition treaties!
(one has moved to Marbella and another one has moved to Africa!)
Flight of the developers - story HERE

Welcome to the Irish way of doing things - or should I say Fianna Fails way of doing things?

hallelujajordan

Enough with the tabloidism . .

No proposals have been agreed at cabinet level so you are a little premature with your "sickening farce" comment. And your comment that Cowen will avoid questioning altogether is just not accurate.

Here's what is currently in the public domain . .

• The government are proposing a private commission with full powers of compellabillity and discovery
• The private commission will have the power to hold hearings in public
• The commission will be overseen by independent experts from outside the state.
• The full report of the commission will be published on completion.
• Brian Cowen will have to attend and answer questions the same as anyone else who is called

The rationale for maintaining the privacy of the commission, at least initially is to ensure that ongoing criminal investigation into several banks are not jeopardised.

Biggins

hallelujajordan wrote: »

Here's what is currently in the public domain . .

• The government are proposing a private commission with full powers of compellabillity and discovery
• The private commission will have the power to hold hearings in public
• The commission will be overseen by independent experts from outside the state.
• The full report of the commission will be published on completion.
• Brian Cowen will have to attend and answer questions the same as anyone else who is called.

Amazing that you know all this detail when even the Green party by their own comments in the last 24 hours, don't know as much - besides the media from the Independent to the Irish Times and The Sunday Business Post!
Care to back up the bolded points with actual sources please?

So far the excuse that is banded around they are using for curtailing (which they are hinting at) certain parts/people from an inquiry (that can be limited in scope) is that "it would be a very serious mistake to do anything that would jeopardise the steps taken in the last 16 months to restore stability to the banking system" Source (not a tabloid!): Irish Times (- and thats just one source, there has been others over the last few days stating the same thing which is convenient again as a state created loophole, "in the greater national interests...", etc. :rolleyes: Very handy of them to pull that one out when needed ain't it?)

Feel free to inform us how you can state the above bolded and underlined when FF themselves haven't announced any exact details of any inquiry before an official statement coming shortly, supposed to be approved by a FF cabinet tomorrow.
I'm sure the Greens would love to know - besides the opposition, the independents and the rest of us all.

hallelujajordan

Biggins wrote: »

[/list]Amazing that you know all this detail when even the Green party by their own comments in the last 24 hours, don't know as much - besides the media from the Independent to the Irish Times and The Sunday Business Post!
Care to back up the bolded points with actual sources please?

So far the excuse that is banded around they are using for curtailing certain parts/people from an inquiry (that can be limited in scope) is that "it would be a very serious mistake to do anything that would jeopardise the steps taken in the last 16 months to restore stability to the banking system" Source (not a tabloid!): Irish Times (- and thats just one source, there has been others over the last few days stating the same thing which is convenient again as a state created loophole, "in the greater national interests...", etc. :rolleyes: Very handy of them to pull that one out when needed ain't it?)

Feel free to inform us how you can state the above when FF themselves haven't announced any exact details of any inquiry before an official statement coming shortly, supposed to be approved by a FF cabinet tomorrow.
I'm sure the Greens would love to know - besides the opposition, the independents and the rest of us all.

I don't know any of the detail ! . . That is my point, none of us do ! I didn't state anything as fact, just pointed to what is in the public domain . .

. . But yet you are ready to declare it a sickening farce and publish a ridiculous statement that indicates that Cowen might in some way be protected from the inquiry. Amongst lots of other ridiculous assertions about an inquiry that hasn't even been discussed at cabinet yet !

BTW, Everything I have summarised here, I took from the links in your original post !

"The commission will then have full powers of compellability and discovery." . . Is taken from the SBP article

I've no quote to indicate that Cowen will be forced to take part but equally I can find nothing to indicate that he won't and there no is reason the Taoiseach should be excluded from any inquiry !

Biggins

hallelujajordan wrote: »

I don't know any of the detail ! . . That is my point, none of us do ! I didn't state anything as fact, just pointed to what is in the public domain.

"The commission will then have full powers of compellability and discovery." . . Is taken from the SBP article

I've no quote to indicate that Cowen will be forced to take part but equally I can find nothing to indicate that he won't and there is reason the Taoiseach should be excluded from any inquiry !

I accept without hesitation the two middle of your list points. I read them myself in the SBP.
You stated that B.Cowen will be made to answer without a shadow of a doubt without sources but according to current media reports (some of which I have posted sources) state the opposite.
I hope you can understand my questioning your posted "certainty".
I would be delighted to hear that your indeed right.

The range and scope that an inquiry is going to be allowed is just as worrying at present by the way and so far (either way) no range has been given but only the worrying repeated statements that "it would be a very serious mistake to do anything that would jeopardise the steps taken in the last 16 months to restore stability to the banking system"
- anything less than independent inquiry with carte-blanch to investigate where it needs to go, is unhelpful by maybe indirectly aiding and abetting a possible hiding of the full facts and possibly those responsible slip away, their actions unaccounted for.
I've stated this much this morning when I emailed a number of TD's.
(Any replies from them I get I shall post.)

jmayo

hallelujajordan wrote: »

. . But yet you are ready to declare it a sickening farce and publish a ridiculous statement that indicates that Cowen might in some way be protected from the inquiry. Amongst lots of other ridiculous assertions about an inquiry that hasn't even been discussed at cabinet yet !

BTW, Everything I have summarised here, I took from the links in your original post !

"The commission will then have full powers of compellability and discovery." . . Is taken from the SBP article

I've no quote to indicate that Cowen will be forced to take part but equally I can find nothing to indicate that he won't and there is reason the Taoiseach should be excluded from any inquiry !

Pray tell us why the taoiseach should be excluded from an enquiry into how the Irish banking sector was allowed to flout normal company laws, mislead investors, puclish incorrect and misleading accounts, disregard prudent lending practices and engage in backdoor loan swaps between each other ?
After all this same taoiseach was the minister of finance during the time most of this took place.

Or do you want the old ff excuse of blaming it on a quango.
After all it must all be the fault of the CB and IFSRA :rolleyes:

Perhaps you would like the Berlusconi favoured system where the prime minister is immune form the laws of the land ?

Darsad

Biggins wrote: »

Two of the involved bankers have already or this in this week, doing a runner to countries that have little or no extradition treaties!
(one has moved to Marbella and another one has moved to Africa!)
Flight of the developers - story HERE

Welcome to the Irish way of doing things - or should I say Fianna Fails way of doing things?

I assume you mean developers and not bankers !
Personally i think Bernard Mcnamara is a decent man whos company has given many many years of employment to many many people. The guy has not done a runner he is taking a break or holiday and probably trying to sell his spanish properties while there and after what he has been through I dont begrudge the man a week or two away from this mess of a country.
Developers got caught up in greed yes and they will suffer , but other than the bankers there is two individuals who were in my opinion criminally neglient and will walk away unscathed with massive state pensions ! messers Neary and Cowen !

Biggins

Darsad wrote: »

I assume you mean developers and not bankers !

Developers indeed. Corrected and thanks for pointing it out.
Those developers as stated in the article above linked, need to come back and explain the deep relationship, money transfers and lack of paperwork.
All of which is related to the bankers.

I hope indeed they come back to help with any investigations.
Fear though of personal repercussions is a strong thing when it come to setting foot again on a flight back our direction. We can only hope.
I suspect there are people out there that hope they do indeed stay out of the country for good.
Hard questions need to be asked and if they are not around to answer them, a few people still within our borders will breathe a lot easier.

Riskymove

jmayo wrote: »

Perhaps you would like the Berlusconi favoured system where the prime minister is immune form the laws of the land ?

perhaps you need to re-read his Post

I dont see him saying Cowen should be excluded!

jmayo

hallelujajordan wrote: »

I've no quote to indicate that Cowen will be forced to take part but equally I can find nothing to indicate that he won't and there is reason the Taoiseach should be excluded from any inquiry !

Riskymove wrote: »

perhaps you need to re-read his Post

I dont see him saying Cowen should be excluded!

See above...
To me that reads there is reason the Taoiseach should be excluded.

Riskymove

jmayo wrote: »

See above...
To me that reads there is reason the Taoiseach should be excluded.

well i think you are mis-reading him.... if you read the whole sentence..

I've no quote to indicate that Cowen will be forced to take part but equally I can find nothing to indicate that he won't and there is reason the Taoiseach should be excluded from any inquiry !

I read the above as meaning he has found no quotes about

a) that Cowen will be forced to take part

b) that Cowen wont be forced to take part

or

c) that there is any reason he should be excluded

i.e. he sees no qoutes setting out any reasons that cowen should be excluded

hallelujajordan

Riskymove wrote: »

well i think you are mis-reading him.... if you read the whole sentence..



I read the above as meaning he has found no quotes about

a) that Cowen will be forced to take part

b) that Cowen wont be forced to take part

or

c) that there is any reason he should be excluded

i.e. he sees no qoutes setting out any reasons that cowen should be excluded

Thank you for clarifying and yes, this is exactly what I meant. . I have edited my post to (hopefully) limit the potential for misinterpretation. .

To be uber-clear, I don't see any reason why Cowen should be excluded from an inquiry. . . nor do I see any media quotes indicating that he will be . . . nor am I aware of any precedent to exclude the Taoiseach . . He is as accountable as anyone else in the state and I am sure he knows that !

Biggins

hallelujajordan wrote: »

...nor do I see any media quotes indicating that he will be...

TAOISEACH Brian Cowen would avoid a public grilling over his supervision of the banking sector as Finance Minister under government proposals for a secret inquiry.

If the Government was to set up a private inquiry, the Taoiseach would not have to appear in public to answer questions. Mr Cowen would, in effect, be the star witness at any public hearings if the demands for an Oireachtas inquiry were agreed.

I note the "in public" added to the second quote and I can understand why possibly due to Gardi follow up, but if there is to be full accountability, his own actions while Finance minister and why he didn't bring about the much needed and reported banking reforms - should be put to him in public and not let him slip away.

Source today: http://www.independent.ie/national-news/cowen-to-escape-public-grilling-over-bank-crisis-2018315.html

hallelujajordan

Biggins wrote: »

I accept without hesitation the two middle of your list points. I read them myself in the SBP.
You stated that B.Cowen will be made to answer without a shadow of a doubt without sources but according to current media reports (some of which I have posted sources) state the opposite.
I hope you can understand my questioning your posted "certainty".
I would be delighted to hear that your indeed right.

I never posted anything with certainty and nor should you . . yet you have ! The reality is that no proposals have been agreed at cabinet (this is my third time posting this) so nothing is certain. Nor do any of your links support your assertion that Cowen will not be called before an inquiry (or even hint at that). The indo report talks about how he won't have to face a public inquiry, but not because he is excluded. . simply because the proposal is to hold the inquiry in private. Your assertion that Cowen will be excluded is completely without foundation.

Biggins

hallelujajordan wrote: »

Your assertion that Cowen will be excluded is completely without foundation.

My previous post.

hallelujajordan

Biggins wrote: »

I note the "in public" added to the second quote and I can understand why possibly due to Gardi follow up, but if there is to be full accountability, his own actions while Finance minister and why he didn't bring about the much needed and reported banking reforms - should be put to him in public and not let him slip away.

Source today: http://www.independent.ie/national-news/cowen-to-escape-public-grilling-over-bank-crisis-2018315.html

That's just daft . . you make it sound like Cowen will be excluded. . the reality is that Cowen will be treated the same as everyone else and if the inquiry is held in private, then he will be included .. in private !!!!

Riskymove

Biggins wrote: »

My previous post.

your previous post simply outlines a view that Cowen would avoid a "public" grilling if the hearing was secret.............it does not say he would avoid attending the hearing only that we would not know what was said at the time....although a final report would issue

Obviously we would prefer to know what he was saying in response to questioning...but dont forget the Indo (and other media) would be hoping to sell a lot of paper based on public hearings and obviously have an agenda there

Biggins

hallelujajordan wrote: »

That's just daft . . you make it sound like Cowen will be excluded...

I don't, the media does and reports so. The FF press office so far has not bothered to deny the story.
So far there is a stony silence. All it takes is a simple "yes" or "no" from them.

hallelujajordan wrote: »

...the reality is that Cowen will be treated the same as everyone else and if the inquiry is held in private, then he will be included .. in private !!!!

But if they actually manage to get him there, why in FULL private?
He actions or lack of them effected public money, surely he must answer some questions to the public in return?

Riskymove

Biggins wrote: »

the media does and reports so. .

again...no it doesn't

But if they actually manage to get him there, why in FULL private?
He actions or lack of them effected public money, surely he must answer some questions to the public in return?

I dont think any of us are arguing against that

Biggins

Riskymove wrote: »

again...no it doesn't
I dont think any of us are arguing against that

I suppose it's down to interpretation and I'm open to be wrong (wouldn't be the first time).
I honestly hope for the sake of justice and for it seen to be done, if only to quell any aspects that anyone is slipping away, getting off light - or completely!

hallelujajordan

Biggins wrote: »

I don't, the media does and reports so. The FF press office so far has not bothered to deny the story.
So far there is a stony silence. All it takes is a simple "yes" or "no" from them.

The only story is the one in your head ! The headline writers chose to use the headline "Cowen to excape public grilling". . when you quoted this in your original post you deliberately dropped the word public and misrepresented the story. There is no hint or story that Cowen will be excluded.

Biggins wrote:

But if they actually manage to get him there, why in FULL private?
He actions or lack of them effected public money, surely he must answer some questions to the public in return?

I have no dispute that Cowen has questions to answer . . whether they be done in public or private makes little difference to me as the final report will be published. If holding the inquiry in Private means that criminal investigations are not impeded and bankers go to jail as a result then Happy Days !

Biggins

hallelujajordan wrote: »

...when you quoted this in your original post you deliberately dropped the word public and misrepresented the story...

Actually it was left out by stupid mistake on my part, not deliberately and your right to call me on it.
The rest I still worry about. Lord knows FF are professionals at knowing how to slip through the legal cracks.

jmayo

hallelujajordan wrote: »

Thank you for clarifying and yes, this is exactly what I meant. . I have edited my post to (hopefully) limit the potential for misinterpretation. .

To be uber-clear, I don't see any reason why Cowen should be excluded from an inquiry. . . nor do I see any media quotes indicating that he will be . . . nor am I aware of any precedent to exclude the Taoiseach . . He is as accountable as anyone else in the state and I am sure he knows that !

Fair enough.
As I read it originally the last part of sentence appeared to state that taoiseach should not attend.

Good to know we agree the taoiseach is not above the law and should not be allowed hide behind his office.

oppenheimer1

The one thing that everyone seems to be forgetting is the liklihood of FF losing the next election. Assuming they lose, I'm guessing the first act of a new government would be to set up an open enquiry if even only out of political motives.

If the report is a whitewash as you suggest it will be Biggins?I have no reason to doubt a second report into the matter will be commissioned. The other parties will go for the jugular and try and wipe FF out if they can, an I can assure you of that.

Barname

cowen need not worry about a grilling

he is one of 2 men (either himself or Ahern) vying for the record of being

• worst Minister for Finance - ever
• worst Taoiseach - ever

a grilling? If this country was to get motivated its a hanging he should be worried about...

there are some nice oak trees across from Anglo Irish banks Stephen Green offices...

Faithless

Well, it's a pure insult from the get-go.

The fact remains, depressing as it is, that no matter what party is in Government, nothing will change. The Irish Free state was founded on corruption and personal greed, so why should it stop now?

Who in their right mind, would live an honest life doing whats best for this country when decades of underhanded, deceptive actions can let a man live a better life as history has shown. When someone comes to power, they make their personal wealth and move on.

Mr.Micro

You could grill Cowen and Ahern and get nothing, because they know nothing about much, least of all finance. The latter anorak cannot even add up. No it would be too painful to listen to the incompetents trying to justify their actions.

yoshytoshy

Fianna fail have probably written the script for this enquiry already ,down to the very end.
Maybe when they defunkt as a government ,they could go into movie production.

nesf

Barname wrote: »

a grilling? If this country was to get motivated its a hanging he should be worried about...

there are some nice oak trees across from Anglo Irish banks Stephen Green offices...

Anymore crap like this and you're gone from here.

Barname

nesf wrote: »

Anymore crap like this and you're gone from here.

you are not for the Banking Inquiry I take it?

nesf

Barname wrote: »

you are not for the Banking Inquiry I take it?

Gone for a week.