Why are Irish roads so potholed and bumpy?

Zoney

dubhthach wrote: »

The major problem in both Limerick and Cork is boundaries. Limerick has reduced the population within the city boundary every census since 1991. The sooner the boundary is extended the better. Likewise with Cork, there was a proposal couple years ago from Cork City to expand boundary. I think the end result would have been a city population of over 200k.

The latest proposal is to have one authority for Limerick city and county, including administration of bits of the city in Co. Clare. However, although painted as a positive thing in newspaper reports, this would be nothing less than our third city (CSO, by total urban area) having no city-level authority.

ManofMunster

how on earth can a cyclist come on and complain about the proliferation of chippings on our roads and in the same breath argue that all of ireland's smallest roads be covered in gravel?

as someone who grew up down one of these boreens (where the last few hundred yards was privately maintained - but most of it council), i cycled 22 miles round trip to school, twelve miles round trip to my part time job, ten miles round trip to my local village for sports training / mass etc. Is he seriously suggesting that I should've been forced to make these bike trips on gravel?

Or perhaps it's more important that those who cycle for recreation/sport are entitled to a better road surface than those for whom it serves as the only viable means of transport?

dubhthach

Zoney wrote: »

The latest proposal is to have one authority for Limerick city and county, including administration of bits of the city in Co. Clare. However, although painted as a positive thing in newspaper reports, this would be nothing less than our third city (CSO, by total urban area) having no city-level authority.

Indeed, if anything it would result in rates that raised within the current Limerick city boundary been spent by county councillors on flowerpots in some little picturesque village etc.

Often the argument put against city boundary extensions is that the local county council will loose a huge percentage of their rates. TBH that's their fault for piggy back off the local city council. They would have been better off developing the towns within the county council area.

I've noticed there is a certain amount of this going on the east side of Galway city. Areas just outside city boundary been developed for office parks etc. TBH all that area should be green belt.

As for Irish roads. We have double the distance of road in this country per head of population. I wouldn't be surprised if a huge number exist because they were built for famine relief etc. Basically "Road's to nowhere". Of course all that roads open up huge areas of the countryside for one off development. So not only do we have too much road to maintain it results in further suburbanisation of the countryside

fitman

ManofMunster wrote: »

how on earth can a cyclist come on and complain about the proliferation of chippings on our roads and in the same breath argue that all of ireland's smallest roads be covered in gravel?

as someone who grew up down one of these boreens (where the last few hundred yards was privately maintained - but most of it council), i cycled 22 miles round trip to school, twelve miles round trip to my part time job, ten miles round trip to my local village for sports training / mass etc. Is he seriously suggesting that I should've been forced to make these bike trips on gravel?

Or perhaps it's more important that those who cycle for recreation/sport are entitled to a better road surface than those for whom it serves as the only viable means of transport?

I didnt say all the smallest roads should be covered in gravel,but having alot of the small less used ones,yes,such as Local Tertiary roads (cul-de-sacs and other minor roads). Repairing and maintaining these kind of roads must cost when putting down a cheaper compact gravel road could be a better alternative. These gravel roads might even be more ideal during snow and hard frost,keeping the road from freezing over. If I had my way then Id have every road covered in nice black Tarmacadem,but its hard enough just to get secondary roads covered. But I must say its a long,long time since someone cycled 22 miles to school and Im betting it was a good 30 years ago,and I doubt it would happen today.

Brian CivilEng

fitman wrote: »

I didnt say all the smallest roads should be covered in gravel,but having alot of the small less used ones,yes,such as Local Tertiary roads (cul-de-sacs and other minor roads). Repairing and maintaining these kind of roads must cost when putting down a cheaper compact gravel road could be a better alternative. These gravel roads might even be more ideal during snow and hard frost,keeping the road from freezing over. If I had my way then Id have every road covered in nice black Tarmacadem,but its hard enough just to get secondary roads covered. But I must say its a long,long time since someone cycled 22 miles to school and Im betting it was a good 30 years ago,and I doubt it would happen today.

Just to be a bit of a pedant here, tarmacadam hasn't been used on roads for many use. The wearing course is usually asphalt which is what people call tarmac, it is made in a similar way to macadam except using concrete aggregate bound together using bitumen. No tar

Bullseye1

NRA.

Solair

I once saw Cork City Council filling a pothole by pouring Tarmac from the back of a truck in moving traffic!!!
They basically chucked a few shovels in to the hole & 30 seconds later rush hour traffic was driving over it!

Things have definitely improved a bit in the last few years but in general there is no logic and no standards!

The local authorities are just generally completely unaccountable and incompetent.

ICE HOUSE

There is no excuse for it.
Nevermind rural backroads. Even here in the capital and all around Dublin city is an absolute disgrace. Seriously shocking state when considering our motor tax is one of the highest in europe. So bloody dangerous too and sick to death buying new and repairing alloy wheels buckled into s**t. :mad:

Solair

There's a big issue in suburban and urban areas where utility companies don't share ducts or coridinate road opening. Eg why aren't UPC and eircom sharing ducts?!

Likewise if there's a major road project eg resurfacing ducts should be put in as part of it, even if nor currently needed.

fitman

abitofacomedian wrote: »

Just to be a bit of a pedant here, tarmacadam hasn't been used on roads for many use. The wearing course is usually asphalt which is what people call tarmac, it is made in a similar way to macadam except using concrete aggregate bound together using bitumen. No tar

What he said,hahaha...

Empire o de Sun

It's the "band aid" policy of the local authorities.

They don't want to set the precedence of rebuilding local and regional roads.

Most roads, are just the same construction as they were since they were first laid out over 150 years ago and have just had a bitumen surface placed on top. There is very little structural strength in these roads, poor drainage, and as someone said before most service are placed in roads leading to multiple trenches in the road. This leads to an inconsistency in the strength of the road, as if can't all flex at the same time. This it true for roads that haven't been built to modern standards.

There needs to be a policy of rebuilding roads and streets to modern standards, cos once they are done properly, it is a investment that will last 100's of years.

But local authorities can't see beyond the next budget/election

Hoof Hearted

Solair wrote: »

I once saw Cork City Council filling a pothole by pouring Tarmac from the back of a truck in moving traffic!!!
They basically chucked a few shovels in to the hole & 30 seconds later rush hour traffic was driving over it!

Things have definitely improved a bit in the last few years but in general there is no logic and no standards!

The local authorities are just generally completely unaccountable and incompetent.

The council lads may as well form a scrum and crouch over the hole and squeeze a couple of big hard "brown logs" in it, the workmanship is that sh*tty.

Sheldons Brain

But local authorities can't see beyond the next budget/election

That might be because those who vote in these elections don't see any benefit in paying for long term improvements.

Hoof Hearted

It would be interesting to know the thickness and consistency of the road base underneath the "surface dressing". Is it 20 layers of surface dressing and dirt as the base?

Actually I don't know if there is any info on the history of road building techniques in Ireland on roads built in the 17th, 18th and early 19th Centuries, because it's likely the foundations laid then are the same foundations we're driving on today and one of the root causes of our bad local/regional roads. I'm sure the councils have this info, if one of them would like to chime in.

Also surface dressing wearS tires at almost 3 times the rate of asphalt, so surface dressing takes more money out of peoples pockets overall in tire replacement costs (not to mention shocks, wheel rim costs), money that otherwise could be used towards longer lasting, smooth beautiful asphalt or "tar". Actually asphalt lasts a lot longer in Ireland than most states in the US and Europe with the more extreme climate in those locations. Asphalt roads also makes Ireland feel less like a 3rd world country to tourists and residents alike.

NOTE TO COUNCILS: SURFACE DRESSING HAS NO PLACE IN MODERN IRELAND. QUIT USING IT. STOP USING REDUCED SKID RESISTANCE AS AN EXCUSE, THE REST OF THE MODERN WORLD "SURVIVES" WITH ASPHALT AND IT IS INTERNATIONAL BEST PRACTICE ROAD MATERIAL.

ONCE AGAIN STOP USING SURFACE DRESSING, IT'S AWFUL, NOISY, CHEAP, MORE COSTLY IN THE LONG RUN.

Middle Man

In light of the very bad weather we've been having and the resultant damage to roads and piers etc nationwide, I'd suggest stopping most traffic calming projects (especially those surplus to requirements) earmarked for 2014 and divert the funding towards the repair and strengthening of damaged infrastructure instead. We need to get our priorities right!

The "potholers" were out on our road last week and did the usual "dump & stomp" repair, less than a week later half of the holes are back! :rolleyes:

Even if the they just scooped out the loose stuff (& water) before dumping & stomping it would made a huge improvement!

monument

Middle Man wrote: »

In light of the very bad weather we've been having and the resultant damage to roads and piers etc nationwide, I'd suggest stopping most traffic calming projects (especially those surplus to requirements) earmarked for 2014 and divert the funding towards the repair and strengthening of damaged infrastructure instead. We need to get our priorities right!

Maybe, rather than furthering an agenda against traffic calming projects, we should start following best practice in other EU countries as already mentioned (ducting in roads or more so under paths and stop digging roads up, stop higher standards, higher quality control, over time rebuild roads to higher standards, questioning the funding of fully paving so many local back roads etc).

And before you try to make out otherwise, I'm not a traffic calming fanatic and I'm on record questioning the safety and usefulness of some of the schemes on national routes in recent years.

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

The "potholers" were out on our road last week and did the usual "dump & stomp" repair, less than a week later half of the holes are back! :rolleyes:

Even if the they just scooped out the loose stuff (& water) before dumping & stomping it would made a huge improvement!

They were back again earlier this week to refill all the holes they filled in the last time, if they did a half decent job they wouldn't need to come back a few weeks later.

May they're preserving their jobs... :rolleyes:

Sheldons Brain

A country that prefers spending money on obstructing roads and ridiculous cyclepaths, rather than basic maintenance, has lost its way completely.

niloc1951

Hoof Hearted wrote: »

It would be interesting to know the thickness and consistency of the road base underneath the "surface dressing". Is it 20 layers of surface dressing and dirt as the base?

Actually I don't know if there is any info on the history of road building techniques in Ireland on roads built in the 17th, 18th and early 19th Centuries, because it's likely the foundations laid then are the same foundations we're driving on today and one of the root causes of our bad local/regional roads. I'm sure the councils have this info, if one of them would like to chime in.

Also surface dressing wearS tires at almost 3 times the rate of asphalt, so surface dressing takes more money out of peoples pockets overall in tire replacement costs (not to mention shocks, wheel rim costs), money that otherwise could be used towards longer lasting, smooth beautiful asphalt or "tar". Actually asphalt lasts a lot longer in Ireland than most states in the US and Europe with the more extreme climate in those locations. Asphalt roads also makes Ireland feel less like a 3rd world country to tourists and residents alike.

NOTE TO COUNCILS: SURFACE DRESSING HAS NO PLACE IN MODERN IRELAND. QUIT USING IT. STOP USING REDUCED SKID RESISTANCE AS AN EXCUSE, THE REST OF THE MODERN WORLD "SURVIVES" WITH ASPHALT AND IT IS INTERNATIONAL BEST PRACTICE ROAD MATERIAL.

ONCE AGAIN STOP USING SURFACE DRESSING, IT'S AWFUL, NOISY, CHEAP, MORE COSTLY IN THE LONG RUN.

I drive a motorhome quite a lot in Europe.
When I get off the ferry in Rosslare and take to the N25 the road noise inside the vehicle is significantly louder to that which I had become accustomed to on European roads, also the mysterious corrugation effect on sections of our 'new' roads can be really felt with 5.5 bar tyre pressures and heavily loaded suspensions :mad:
However I tend to get used to the noise when driving here in Ireland but when I return to Europe it feels like I'm driving a Roll Royce, While I can't hear the clock I can enjoy my music at a comfortable volume .

A related issue is the very poor or broken surfaces between the islands at traffic calming measures, no account seems to have been taken of the fact that such structures concentrate the weight and wear from HGV's into very defined areas, which appear not to have received any relevant strengthening of the pavement.

Hoof Hearted

Hoof Hearted wrote: »

It would be interesting to know the thickness and consistency of the road base underneath the "surface dressing". Is it 20 layers of surface dressing and dirt as the base?

Actually I don't know if there is any info on the history of road building techniques in Ireland on roads built in the 17th, 18th and early 19th Centuries, because it's likely the foundations laid then are the same foundations we're driving on today and one of the root causes of our bad local/regional roads. I'm sure the councils have this info, if one of them would like to chime in.
.

I can't be sure about most roads as their current course and width bears little resemblance to what was there in the days BC (before cars), but I would imagine that all roads have a course stone foundation of (very) variable thickness followed by fine stone & dirt then several layers of surface dressing & dirt.

The real problems occur when a road has been widened by traffic eating into the verge and then the holes are filled with "tarmac" and surfaced dressed later, this new section now has a very thin foundation which is often separate from the main road foundation and this liable to fail and forever need patching.

Zoney

Buttevant is getting more and more like the surface of the moon! Even slowing right down it felt like I would lose a wheel - that's with trying my best not to hit the worst holes - a harder job still at night and with all the people/traffic in the town to watch out for too.

It's such a sequence of dire bits of road really between Limerick and Cork!

At least the crazy winding bit after Buttevant is perfectly smooth (as are some of the bends after Croom).

Even where the roads are bad, it does make some difference where they're properly paved!

Zoney

Zoney wrote: »

Even where the roads are bad, it does make some difference where they're properly paved!

True, there's nothing worse than hitting a big dip/hole or bump half the way around a sharp bend. It can cause a vehicle to skip badly and easily create a crash!

Hoof Hearted

Deleted User wrote: »

True, there's nothing worse than hitting a big dip/hole or bump half the way around a sharp bend. It can cause a vehicle to skip badly and easily create a crash!

Yes, but they'll tell you surface dressing has better skid resistance. The fact that it falls apart where you need grip the most (in a bend) doesn't seem to be part of the council thought process or the fact that your tyres wear out 3 times faster (because of surface dressing), meaning worn out thread or bald tyres, in a country where the roads are wet for more time than most places on earth. You can shove your extra skid resistance argument.

For the say 150,000 mile life of a car on surface dressed roads, 6 sets of tires @ 500 Euro per set of four would cost 3000 Euro. The same tyres lasting 3 times longer on tarmac roads (requiring only 2 sets) would cost 1000 Euro for the same 150,000 miles. Costing 2000 Euro extra per car (due to surface dressing) over a 10 year period. Multiply that by the 2.5 million vehicles on the road it adds up to 5 billion Euro extra in tyre costs every 10 years due to (you got it) extra wear due to surface dressing. I didn't include the following in the costs: Higher truck tyre wear costs. The extra suspension replacement costs. The higher rolling resistance friction of surface dressed roads causing 5% worse fuel economy (might be another few billion Euro there). These factors would add to the cost perhaps another billion or two, however on the other hand, a portion of driving is also done on newer tarmac road with less wear which offsets the tire, suspension and rolling resistance cost by perhaps a few billion Euro.

So not factoring in inflation I feel comfortable in saying 5 billion overall is wasted every 10 years due to wear and tear costs alone that could better be invested in making surface dressed roads history in Ireland. Of course there would also be other benefits of having smooth roads, more throughput efficiency due to cars not having to slow down in bumpy and potholed sections. Better safety due to not having drivers swerving to avoid potholes as much.

@hoof

@hoof hearted
I wasn't really commenting on the type of surface just the fact that a new smooth complete surface is far better than a rough old one pitted with holes and lumps of "filling".

aujopimur

One problem is temporary or overnight repair by contractors, the LA take the contractors money but will not spend it on permanent repair. Another is the bitumen grouting on new surfaces or repair joints, this is often undertaken when the surface is wet leading to the ingress of moisture and the later failure of the joint.

Road building contractors need to be held responsible for their work for a longer and more reasonable period

Zoney

Òne thing I've never seen here, that seems to be regular practice abroad (maybe not UK) is preventative maintanance, where after/before winter, cracks (not yet potholes) are coated with strips of tar.

niloc1951

Zoney wrote: »

Òne thing I've never seen here, that seems to be regular practice abroad (maybe not UK) is preventative maintanance, where after/before winter, cracks (not yet potholes) are coated with strips of tar.

You mean Like This or This in Northern France