Exam Results - Delayed (Mod Warning: Post #383 & #420)

sparkling sea

Sully wrote: »

A suggestion which would cost a large sum of money and should not be exactly spent on such an issue so soon.

No it wouldn't, any student could contact the Citizens Advice Service and get free legal advice, it is way to soon to spend money on this. Also if you contact a solictor first you cannot avail of the free service.

Alternatively there are quite alot of legal studies students on the College Street Campus who not only study employment law but also study contract law. Now I know I said the WIT has some useless lecturers, however there are also some brillant lecturers employed there who have thought there students well.

I know I am stating the obivious but I wouldn't recommend asking Kathleen for advice on this particular issue

2brnot2b

CheesedOff wrote: »

How can you assure me of that? What part are you playing in this? I choose not to believe it, the students are no part of this, so using us as a 'last resort' still does not make it acceptable. There is no excuse. They should have figured out another way to deal with this. Go to a higher power for example.

I can assure of it, because I've witnessed it.

I never said that dragging students into this debacle was acceptable at all - I've yet to speak to a colleague who does.

As for going to a higher power for a resolution - the LRC won't intervene in this process until the internal grievance procedure is exhausted. WIT won't engage in the process. If it refferred at this point it'll just be sent back to WIT and the TUI. So unless you are suggesting divine intervention, I don't really see where else there is to go.

Thankfully, both sides met yesterday morning and seem close to resolution.

2brnot2b

sparkling sea wrote: »

Alternatively there are quite alot of legal studies students on the College Street Campus who not only study employment law but also study contract law. Now I know I said the WIT has some useless lecturers, however there are also some brillant lecturers employed there who have thought there students well.
[/QUOTE

Exactly - there are lots of legal experts floating round the hallowed halls of WIT that could advise on this matter, and plenty of WIT alumni are practising solicitors that I'm sure could be prevailed upon for some advice.
Use the resources that are abundant on campus.

sparkling sea

Glad to hear a resolution is in sight - or an exhuastion of the grievance procedure.

However the SU needs to keep on top of this and get the advice needed, just in case everything goes belly up.

sparkling sea

[QUOTE=thejanitor;643
The exam results are not even a week late as of yet and already people are in panic. It is fact that this delay in results will not impact anyone as there will be mitigating circumstances in effect for anyone depending on them for employers and other colleges.

Very few employers need and can allow for mitigating circumstances
in the current economic climate, there to busy trying to keep there businesses afloat, they don't need the hassle when there are some many people looking for a job. In reality they will pick someone else because its the easiest option.

[QUOTE=thejanitor;643
If something can be done to speed things up between TUI and WIT I assume a commercial law solicitor or barrister would be a great advantage.

Why do you assume this, they would have no part to play in the TUI WIT dispute - its a crazy assumption.
Any third or fourth year law student could point the SU in the right direction and there are plenty other resources that the SU could easily access for free.

thejanitor

sparkling sea wrote: »

[QUOTE=thejanitor;643
The exam results are not even a week late as of yet and already people are in panic. It is fact that this delay in results will not impact anyone as there will be mitigating circumstances in effect for anyone depending on them for employers and other colleges.

Very few employers need and can allow for mitigating circumstances
in the current economic climate, there to busy trying to keep there businesses afloat, they don't need the hassle when there are some many people looking for a job. In reality they will pick someone else because its the easiest option.

And in what scenario would an employer require such urgent results for Christmas exams?

[QUOTE=thejanitor;643
If something can be done to speed things up between TUI and WIT I assume a commercial law solicitor or barrister would be a great advantage.

Why do you assume this, they would have no part to play in the TUI WIT dispute - its a crazy assumption.
Any third or fourth year law student could point the SU in the right direction and there are plenty other resources that the SU could easily access for free.

They would have every part to play as they would have more field experience than any 3rd or 4th year law student in WIT.

Sully

Would prefer the union asked a legal professional rather then a student.

You cant just start giving advise after a few years in college for god sake.

seanyroche

i cant be bothered to read these comments

alpha2zulu

One of our lecturers has mentioned that the TUI and WIT have come to some sort of an agreement today. The TUI has called a meeting for this evening for their members. If their previous votes are anything to go by their is a fair chance the dispute will be effectively over come tonight in my opinion.

jonsey

seanyroche wrote: »

i cant be bothered to read these comments

Well don't bother then. Nobody asked you to, but thanks for letting us know.

jonsey

alpha 2 zulu wrote: »

One of our lecturers has mentioned that the TUI and WIT have come to some sort of an agreement today. The TUI has called a meeting for this evening for their members. If their previous votes are anything to go by their is a fair chance the dispute will be effectively over come tonight in my opinion.

Hopefully it will come to an end alright. It'd take a couple of days for the exam results to be processed I'm sure but at least we'd know when they were coming out.

alpha2zulu

jonsey wrote: »

Hopefully it will come to an end alright. It'd take a couple of days for the exam results to be processed I'm sure but at least we'd know when they were coming out.

I'm sure it could be up to 3 weeks before the official results but at least the TUI ban on unofficial results will be gone.

jonsey

alpha 2 zulu wrote: »

I'm sure it could be up to 3 weeks before the official results but at least the TUI ban on unofficial results will be gone.

I doubt it'd take that long tbh. The TUI don't have a ban on unofficial results - the college (management) do! The college have always had and always will have a ban on giving out unofficial results.

alpha2zulu

jonsey wrote: »

I doubt it'd take that long tbh. The TUI don't have a ban on unofficial results - the college (management) do! The college have always had and always will have a ban on giving out unofficial results.

But there is the practice of the unofficial results being unoffically available...;) Its even been going on this week from some lecturers despite the TUI only allowing 'general feedback' to students on the results.

jonsey

alpha 2 zulu wrote: »

But there is the practice of the unofficial results being unoffically available...;) Its even been going on this week from some lecturers despite the TUI only allowing 'general feedback' to students on the results.

Well it shouldn't have been going on but I take your point in that respect. However, not giving the results this time is a mangement directive afaik.

beegirl

alpha 2 zulu wrote: »

I'm sure it could be up to 3 weeks before the official results but at least the TUI ban on unofficial results will be gone.

Yes it probably would take a few weeks because as well as the lecturers submitting results, exam boards will have to be held and so on.

Clano

beegirl wrote: »

Yes it probably would take a few weeks because as well as the lecturers submitting results, exam boards will have to be held and so on.

We were told by head of engineering it would take about 2 and a half weeks

shapez

Clano wrote: »

We were told by head of engineering it would take about 2 and a half weeks

That's interesting as there is no Head of Engineering anymore. He's retired. Are you sure it wasn't your Head of Dept.?

Clano

shapez wrote: »

That's interesting as there is no Head of Engineering anymore. He's retired. Are you sure it wasn't your Head of Dept.?

Think hes head of engineering technology actually,

Sully

seanyroche wrote: »

i cant be bothered to read these comments

Ill make it even easier for you so. Adios.

sparkling sea

Very few employers need and can allow for mitigating circumstances
in the current economic climate, there to busy trying to keep there businesses afloat, they don't need the hassle when there are some many people looking for a job. In reality they will pick someone else because its the easiest option.

And in what scenario would an employer require such urgent results for Christmas exams? [/I]

You would have to ask someone in this scenario, I think it was discussed a few pages back.


They would have every part to play as they would have more field experience than any 3rd or 4th year law student in WIT.[/QUOTE]

No they wouldn't legal. Industrial relations practice only allows for the parties in dispute to be involved in the dispute resolutions. The TUI and the WIT.
Further anyone who claims to have experience in this field is pulling your leg. There haven't really been any industrial disputes for years and it is only recently (past year or so that they have arisen). Anyones there have been have been dealt with by the unions and whether or not they know what they are doing is very subjective.


Again the SU would be as well to get their info from a legal student who is as likely and should have a full understanding of the issues.

thejanitor

One of our lecturers has mentioned that the TUI and WIT have come to some sort of an agreement today.

The exam results will not be long around the corner. Talks are going well between both parties and good news is expected next week.

As I said yesterday, talks are in process and we should expect good news soon on the matter.

As for:

No they wouldn't legal. Industrial relations practice only allows for the parties in dispute to be involved in the dispute resolutions. The TUI and the WIT.
Further anyone who claims to have experience in this field is pulling your leg. There haven't really been any industrial disputes for years and it is only recently (past year or so that they have arisen). Anyones there have been have been dealt with by the unions and whether or not they know what they are doing is very subjective.

There are plenty of experts out there that have mediated two or more groups in dispute. You seem to be under the impression that the current dispute is unlike any other. Its not, in fact its the exact same, its all about money.

What you are trying to say is that nobody else has any further experience than WIT 3rd year law students. Please engage your brain here for a moment. Most law students have never been inside a courtroom or attended official union meetings/labour court hearings. There are legal secretarys out there that have more field experience than some law students (no offence to any law student out there - just making a point). Same goes for any profession, engineers, accountants, lecturers etc.. College qualification is only 50% of your study, the other 50% is made up of experience, hence the person with the most relevant experience will most likely get the job en the end.

Law students dont work from a low salary to a high salary on graduation for no reason. Increases are based on performance/experience. You will see this when you graduate.

sparkling sea

Sully wrote: »

Would prefer the union asked a legal professional rather then a student.

You cant just start giving advise after a few years in college for god sake.

Don't know why you have such little faith there are always a couple of students in any class how can give every nuance needed on any given topic and its easy to find out who they are. They usually get at leat 70% in everything.

After a few years in college any student worth their salt should be able to give the information needed by the SU but if you'd perfer to pay to find out this information so be it.

sparkling sea

thejanitor wrote: »

As I said yesterday, talks are in process and we should expect good news soon on the matter.

As for:

There are plenty of experts out there that have mediated two or more groups in dispute. You seem to be under the impression that the current dispute is unlike any other. Its not, in fact its the exact same, its all about money.

What you are trying to say is that nobody else has any further experience than WIT 3rd year law students. Please engage your brain here for a moment. Most law students have never been inside a courtroom or attended official union meetings/labour court hearings. There are legal secretarys out there that have more field experience than some law students (no offence to any law student out there - just making a point). Same goes for any profession, engineers, accountants, lecturers etc.. College qualification is only 50% of your study, the other 50% is made up of experience, hence the person with the most relevant experience will most likely get the job en the end.

Law students dont work from a low salary to a high salary on graduation for no reason. Increases are based on performance/experience. You will see this when you graduate.

You presume too much again.
I studied law quite some time ago and I promise you that before the Celtic Tiger you needed to be good, during the boom you were just needed and that goes for accountants, engineers, etc.

The reason I did something else was because I was ill and needed something to do to stop me getting bored. Financially I was in a position to so. Fortunately I am still employed and will not be looking for employment and I know that I did well, I don't need anyone to clarify this for me

I hate to be this rude (its so immature but) maybe its time you engaged your brain a bit, industrial resolutions rarely take place in court, very few disputes every get to court to begin with, most resolutions happen in house, following specific in house procedures. Further there are many legal secretaries out there who could give much better legal advice then there bosses. It would be any idea to drop the attitude and learn to heed good advice, this and brown nosing is the best way to climb the ladder in any profession, even lecturing - just ask any of the lecturers.

Any chance you would humour me by letting me in on who and where these experts are in Ireland. I'm sure they'd like to know themselves.

I suppose you can bring a horse to water

Sully

Just to add before I give this topic another clean up (its painful, trust me. This has been a nightmare to mod, ye feckers ). One of the sabbatical officers has an honors degree in Legal Studies with 4 years work experience with a solicitor who also specialized in arbitration. I think going to undergraduates and graduates with no experience would be very foolish.

sparkling sea

Sully wrote: »

Just to add before I give this topic another clean up (its painful, trust me. This has been a nightmare to mod, ye feckers ). One of the sabbatical officers has an honors degree in Legal Studies with 4 years work experience with a solicitor who also specialized in arbitration. I think going to undergraduates and graduates with no experience would be very foolish.

Foolish in your opinion it may be, but it will be the same information that you get if you pay for it.

Arbitration by the way is not something the students will need, they are not employees.

I bid this thread farewell and will leave you guys to your surmizing.

thejanitor

sparkling sea wrote: »

You presume too much again.
I studied law quite some time ago and I promise you that before the Celtic Tiger you needed to be good, during the boom you were just needed and that goes for accountants, engineers, etc.

The reason I did something else was because I was ill and needed something to do to stop me getting bored. Financially I was in a position to so. Fortunately I am still employed and will not be looking for employment and I know that I did well, I don't need anyone to clarify this for me

I hate to be this rude (its so immature but) maybe its time you engaged your brain a bit, industrial resolutions rarely take place in court, very few disputes every get to court to begin with, most resolutions happen in house, following specific in house procedures. Further there are many legal secretaries out there who could give much better legal advice then there bosses. It would be any idea to drop the attitude and learn to heed good advice, this and brown nosing is the best way to climb the ladder in any profession, even lecturing - just ask any of the lecturers.

Any chance you would humour me by letting me in on who and where these experts are in Ireland. I'm sure they'd like to know themselves.

I suppose you can bring a horse to water

OH MY GOD ITS LIKE TALKING TO A PLANK OF WOOD!

Sully

sparkling sea wrote: »

Foolish in your opinion it may be, but it will be the same information that you get if you pay for it.

I very, very much doubt it.

Arbitration by the way is not something the students will need, they are not employees.

Its what this dispute has been needing, apart from a local agreed deal. So, it helps to know the inner workings from it.

I bid this thread farewell and will leave you guys to your surmizing.

Cheereo

Sully

Mod Note

Closing this topic while I go through it, clean up whatever needs cleaning and post a decent summary of events. The topic is moving at a very fast rate so we need a short while to sort it out before the next onslaught of comments.

Thanks for your patience folks.

Temp Closed

Sully

Mod Note
Topic re-opened. May I remind everybody of the new [url=]forum charter[/url] which everybody should have read by now. In particular the following point comes into play:-

Please don't:

- Attack any individual forum poster or WIT Staff Member (including lecturers and union members)

WITSU is a small enough body in terms of sabbatical officers (just the three) compared with various departments in WIT and other unions in WIT such as the TUI. Therefore, the relaxed approach towards attacking groups does not apply the same way here. Constructive and civil comments are welcome but if your just going to attack and abuse the WITSU sabbatical officers then action will be taken from the moderators.

As for the larger body that is WITSU - well, the relaxed approach will be taken here and the general charter use applies.

We felt the need to address this as it is becoming a common problem in this topic.

If you are acting out of what could be considered 'normal behaviour', don't be surprised if you get a holiday from the forum.

Thanks for your co-operation folks.

beegirl

There is good news folks! I'm sure you will probably hear this today anyway, but the dispute has been resolved at a meeting last night - so no more industrial action and lecturers will be submitting results ASAP.

By the way, the offer made by WIT was the EXACT same as the one TUI rejected a couple of weeks ago - the only difference is that WIT has now agreed to negotiate further on the issue and get back within the grievance procedure. People were willing to accept any offer that got things back into proper negotiations, and many expressed concern about what not accepting the offer (i.e. dragging things out further) would mean for students. So I hope that may put paid to the comments that it was all about the money and that lecturers didn't care about student welfare.

If these negotiations don't work out, now that the proper grievance procedure is being adhered to, the issue would be taken to the LRC - rather than resulting in any more industrial action. That might put some students' minds at ease, knowing that this debacle won't be reoccuring anytime soon :eek:

Sully

beegirl wrote: »

There is good news folks! I'm sure you will probably hear this today anyway, but the dispute has been resolved at a meeting last night - so no more industrial action and lecturers will be submitting results ASAP.

By the way, the offer made by WIT was the EXACT same as the one TUI rejected a couple of weeks ago - the only difference is that WIT has now agreed to negotiate further on the issue and get back within the grievance procedure. People were willing to accept any offer that got things back into proper negotiations, and many expressed concern about what not accepting the offer (i.e. dragging things out further) would mean for students. So I hope that may put paid to the comments that it was all about the money and that lecturers didn't care about student welfare.

If that was the case, why did ye not accept the deal before? :P

If these negotiations don't work out, now that the proper grievance procedure is being adhered to, the issue would be taken to the LRC - rather than resulting in any more industrial action. That might put some students' minds at ease, knowing that this debacle won't be reoccuring anytime soon :eek:

True that, if the TUI allow it. Just seems a flaw in the procedure that they decide when to go but fingers crossed it wont come to that

dlofnep

Sully wrote: »

If that was the case, why did ye not accept the deal before? :P

Because WIT did not follow protocol and did not adhere to the grievance procedure. It wasn't an issue about money, and I highlighted this about 10 pages back. It was the WIT's management's fault for not adhering to basic procedures.

beegirl

Sully wrote: »

If that was the case, why did ye not accept the deal before? :P

I just said, because the first time there was no negotiation - this time they have still cut the rate, but are willing to negotiate and see if they can come to an agreement. If they eventually agree on a higher rate (or if the LRC agrees it for them!) lecturers would get back the difference. I don't really give a monkeys though, and I would say I am the lowest paid person in the whole college lol! The whole thing was ridiculous :rolleyes:

beegirl

Sully wrote: »

True that, if the TUI allow it. Just seems a flaw in the procedure that they decide when to go but fingers crossed it wont come to that

I don't get what you mean by this part? The TUI would be the ones pushing for this to go to the LRC, if it doesn't get agreed soon...

Sully

dlofnep wrote: »

Because WIT did not follow protocol and did not adhere to the grievance procedure. It wasn't an issue about money, and I highlighted this about 10 pages back. It was the WIT's management's fault for not adhering to basic procedures.

beegirl wrote: »

I don't get what you mean by this part? The TUI would be the ones pushing for this to go to the LRC, if it doesn't get agreed soon...

I would have assumed the TUI could continue negotiating and getting full pay during the negotiating stages under the procedure, without the LRC assistance (as the TUI lodged the dispute, they need to call on the LRC).

Sully

jonsey wrote: »

When the mod of a forum makes comments that are so out of touch with the facts of a case then you know a thread is screwed.

So your telling me that is not how the grievance procedure actually works?

beegirl

Sully wrote: »

I would have assumed the TUI could continue negotiating and getting full pay during the negotiating stages under the procedure, without the LRC assistance (as the TUI lodged the dispute, they need to call on the LRC).

No, lecturers will be getting the 50% rate until such a time that a higher rate is agreed on (if it ever is!). That is the deal that was accepted so that we could end the industrial action. The whole point was to get back inside the grievance procedure so that TUI would be able to take this to the LRC, if it cannot be agreed on locally.

jonsey

Sully wrote: »

So your telling me that is not how the grievance procedure actually works?

I was referring to your earlier points on why the TUI didn't accept the deal before when there was no such deal before. Not a very clever comment to make. As for the grievance procedure, what is your point on that? Are you suggesting that the TUI should have dug their heels in and get full pay! Even if you were suggesting this as an option (not sure why you would) then it wouldn't work like that at all.

beegirl

---Quote (Originally by jonsey)---
When the mod of a forum makes comments that are so out of touch with the facts of a case then you know a thread is screwed.
---End Quote---


What happened to this post? Do any posts that you don't like just get deleted??? This isn't a forum it's a dictatorship :rolleyes:

jonsey

beegirl wrote: »

---Quote (Originally by jonsey)---
When the mod of a forum makes comments that are so out of touch with the facts of a case then you know a thread is screwed.
---End Quote---


What happened to this post? Do any posts that you don't like just get deleted??? This isn't a forum it's a dictatorship :rolleyes:

I had deleted the post myself beegirl as I was going to re-phrase it and add to it but it got quoted before I could so no conspiracy theory on that front!

beegirl

jonsey wrote: »

I had deleted the post myself beegirl as I was going to re-phrase it and add to it but it got quoted before I could so no conspiracy theory on that front!

Oops!!! Sorry Sully, jumped to conclusions a bit quick there

Sully

jonsey wrote: »

I was referring to your earlier points on why the TUI didn't accept the deal before when there was no such deal before. Not a very clever comment to make. As for the grievance procedure, what is your point on that? Are you suggesting that the TUI should have dug their heels in and get full pay! Even if you were suggesting this as an option (not sure why you would) then it wouldn't work like that at all.

There was a deal - the exact same without using the procedure but going through LRC instead. If the Grievance Procedure was fully used to the point, then the lecturers get paid 100% until its resolved and technically speaking it could go on for another 5 years. The TUI lodged the dispute, they decided when to go to the LRC. Just one fault I see with this procedure

beegirl wrote: »

No, lecturers will be getting the 50% rate until such a time that a higher rate is agreed on (if it ever is!). That is the deal that was accepted so that we could end the industrial action. The whole point was to get back inside the grievance procedure so that TUI would be able to take this to the LRC, if it cannot be agreed on locally.

That works better for the college so, and I suppose students in respect. At least the TUI are getting some of their procedures respected.

jonsey

Sully wrote: »

There was a deal - the exact same without using the procedure but going through LRC instead. If the Grievance Procedure was fully used to the point, then the lecturers get paid 100% until its resolved and technically speaking it could go on for another 5 years. The TUI lodged the dispute, they decided when to go to the LRC. Just one fault I see with this procedure

Just to clarify - are you saying that the deal accepted yesterday is the same deal that was offered a few weeks ago? In a dispute like this you can't just decide to go to the LRC. If that was the case every union in Ireland would lodge complaints to the LRC when pay is cut in the hope of it dragging on for years. It simply does not work like that. As someone pointed out previously the LRC is a court of last resort. If the TUI had referred it then it would simply have been referred back to the two parties to try to come to an agreement locally so 100% would not have been paid.

Sully wrote: »

That works better for the college so, and I suppose students in respect. At least the TUI are getting some of their procedures respected.

It sure does work better for the college. That's spot on and it keeps us out of it.

thejanitor

Results have been submitted to the college and boards are due to take place over the next 2 week.

I would imagine results can be expected in late Feb.

alpha2zulu

beegirl wrote: »

There is good news folks! I'm sure you will probably hear this today anyway, but the dispute has been resolved at a meeting last night - so no more industrial action and lecturers will be submitting results ASAP.

Well we heard that yesterday, the meeting was always going to be a fore gone conclusion once the TUI heads were happy. Democracy-Iranian style...

By the way, the offer made by WIT was the EXACT same as the one TUI rejected a couple of weeks ago

Now on face value it really makes the whole episode look like a TUI power trip. The way I'm reading it is through it going back to the grievance procedure, albeit on the 50% exam pay rate, the TUI wanted something from the WIT that in someway vaguely resembles a carrot so that they can go back to their members and proclaim 'peace in our time'.

People were willing to accept any offer that got things back into proper negotiations

Hold on, which side actually brought the dispute outside proper negotiations in the first place. Did the WIT work outside the grievance procedure...yes, but they weren’t the ones that walked away with the green n' whites.

many expressed concern about what not accepting the offer (i.e. dragging things out further) would mean for students. So I hope that may put paid to the comments that it was all about the money and that lecturers didn't care about student welfare.

Nonsense,
Its worse than that, students werent held to ransom because of money, it was because of some almighty grievance procedure!!

I would never say our lecturers at any rate didn’t care about students welfare, but in my opinion the TUI shop stewards and negotiators blatantly showed no consideration for students welfare by forcing the rank and files members into this type of action. Anecdotal evidence suggests this form of action actually had very little support and it was the fear of the unions wrath that allowed the thing voted through in the first place. They had no right to use us effectively as a human shield in their internal dispute!

jonsey

alpha 2 zulu wrote: »

Now on face value it really makes the whole episode look like a TUI power trip. The way I'm reading it is through it going back to the grievance procedure, albeit on the 50% exam pay rate, the TUI wanted something from the WIT that in someway vaguely resembles a carrot so that they can go back to their members and proclaim 'peace in our time'.

On this face of it it would. However, you are ignoring a key fact - and you selectively only posted half of beegirl's point which was:

beegirl wrote: »

By the way, the offer made by WIT was the EXACT same as the one TUI rejected a couple of weeks ago - the only difference is that WIT has now agreed to negotiate further on the issue and get back within the grievance procedure.

The part in bold is what you have quoted but the second part is more important. The first offer was that WIT would pay 100% for exams already corrected but would not negotiate on future exams. The more recent offer was 100% for past exams and they would be willing to negotiate. The college are now willing to abide by the grievance procedure, whereas before they wouldn't. Can you not see the difference? It's quite an important one.

homolumo

the whole dispute became more than exam payments/money. lets face it no one is going to get rich on exam payments when tax, income levy etc are deducted. it was about respecting proper industrial relations and not taking unilateral action.

lugha

alpha 2 zulu wrote: »

They had no right to use us effectively as a human shield in their internal dispute!

Interesting question as to whether this kind of action is morally justified and of course it is not unique to this dispute. Usually when workers engage in industrial action, people who have no part in the quarrel are the ones who have to pay the price, be they patients, commuters, electricity customers, or in this case students or whoever. You could argue that workers should only target their adversaries (i.e. management) but unfortunately, frequently the only option open to them is to withdraw/restrict their labour.
Rightly or wrongly, the consensus has emerged amongst workers that they do have a right to withdraw their labour. Those of you who seek, and hopefully find, rewarding employment will find that they have all sort of entitlements as workers (sick/maternity leave, minimum wage, holidays entitlements etc.) that the might not have if workers in the past had not fought for them.

alpha 2 zulu wrote: »

it was because of some almighty grievance procedure!!

Of course the bad old days of regular strikes wasn't satisfactory for anybody and we have devised a more sensible way of dealing with the inevitable and perpetual conflict of interests between workers and their bosses. The grievance procedure that you dismiss with such disdain is part of this more civilized approach.
If both sides are not compelled to adhere to what they agree to (unless they have very good reason not to) then how can there even be a basis for any agreement? Surely it is an immutable rule of negotiation between any parties, no matter how much their views differ, that you abide by what you agree to? How can there be agreement unless there is mutual expectation that such agreement will be honoured?

alpha2zulu

jonsey wrote: »

The part in bold is what you have quoted but the second part is more important.

Well it depends on your perspective of course. The fact remains practically the same deal was on the table before. Whether it was the TUI national rep felt the joke had run its course or the local TUI heads were getting nerves about members breaking ranks I guess we'll never know.
The fact remains:

beegirl wrote: »

lecturers will be getting the 50% rate until such a time that a higher rate is agreed on (if it ever is!).

Peace in our time indeed!

lugha wrote: »

You could argue that workers should only target their adversaries (i.e. management) but unfortunately, frequently the only option open to them is to withdraw/restrict their labour.

Of course they should have targeted management. How dare they stick the students in the middle of it. Its just pure laziness on the part of the TUI that between the lot of them they couldent find a way of targeting management without stressing out and worrying innocent students. It was totally pathetic. The phrase more money than sense comes to mind....