Truth about creches.

mia1

we'llallhavetea wrote: »

if the op has "instilled fear" or worries into parents who use creches, why are they putting their children somewhere that is not 100% trustworthy? tbh the op shouldn't be able to upset you, because you should be completely sure your child is being cared for in an appropriate manner.

The thing is I think a lot of parents believe the creche they use is "100% trustworthy" and that's why they have taken such a dim view of the OP.
As a childcare worker I will say this..I don't think any parent should view ANY setting as 100% trustworthy.
No matter what the situation...creches, hospitals, schools, farms...people have to be open to the fact that things are not always perfect, people are not all perfect otherwise abuse, negligence etc would never be discovered.
Now as I said I am not trying to scaremonger, thankfully I have never come across a situation where a child was put in serious danger/abused etc (thankfully) and many settings I have been in have been wonderful but there have been practices/situations I did not agree with which parents were not aware of!

mia1

axel rose wrote: »

This person has the cheek to happily give substandard care and collect a wage and then brag about it!!! THB in 10 years in childcare (teenagers) I have never seen the crap shes banging on about. .

Okay axel rose so just because you've only witnessed perfect care of children then it means it couldn't happen anywhere else?

axel rose

If I remember correctly when the OP posted on rollercoaster, it transpired that they were a childminder...........maybe I'm wrong? (This is literally a verbatim post and reminds me of times when I reread a book!!!)

Anyway Op please explain why you worked in numerous creches and chose not to follow set guidelines and report the negligent behaviour of your workmates.


Its too easy to criticise when you are prepared to do nothing OP. You have and had the power to adequately protect children and chose to do nothing.

axel rose

mia1 wrote: »

Okay axel rose so just because you've only witnessed perfect care of children then it means it couldn't happen anywhere else?

I claim absolutely nothing of the sort Mia1. However in my field when we see anything that we are concerned about we dont take to our keyboards and let it continue.

I have ( and probably will in future) report any concerns to the appropiate peoples to ensure that standards remain high.

I have also assisted both parents and children to do the same. Its very standard in my field.

mia1

axel rose wrote: »

Its too easy to criticise when you are prepared to do nothing OP. You have and had the power to adequately protect children and chose to do nothing.

From my own experience and from hearing that of others, a situation has to be pretty major to be taken notice of.

"you" I take it you mean all childcare workers have the power to protect children? Am I right?
Because in my opinion "you" should refer to parents aswell and if you want to acuse the OP of doing nothing then I'm sure you won't mind me saying that you coming on a public forum an reassuring parents that this type of thing does not happen is not exactly proctecting children either now is it?

mia1

axel rose wrote: »

I claim absolutely nothing of the sort Mia1.

Why did you refer to it as "crap" if you believe it does happen?

leesmom

i dont even know why so many people have replied to the op when clearly she was just having a bad day . she hasnt even posted since. if she really cared about the children in her care she would complain.
mia that is the way things are these days. but if people like the op actually had a genuine concern they should report the creche.
i checked 6 or 7 creches before putting my son into one. we brought him into one, had a look around while he toddled around the place only to find him picking up a really sharp knife one of the teachers had left on the table after cutting up food. its one of the bigger chains so obviously we decided against that one. parents do their best, why else would people search so much to try and find a creche they believe is good for their child.

lalalulu

I think any of us here who have worked in creches can relate to some of what celsey has said. I think it is the way you worded your post celsy it seemed you were saying parents don't care where they send their children.
I will never put my child into a creche in ireland only because they are not regulated properly and the hse do not carry out proper inspections. There are great creches and some awful one's, unfortunately it's hard to know as a parent which is which...

mia1

axel rose wrote: »

Its very standard in my field.

And what is your "field"?
You may find that reporting procedures are much more co-ordinated in other "fields" than in an private creche for example.

mia1

leesmom wrote: »

mia that is the way things are these days. but if people like the op actually had a genuine concern they should report the creche.

But this is my point. Things are the way they are because people do nothing about it!!
However it came across in many of the first replies to this thread that the OP was making up that things like that happened. Many of you took her post to be an attack on your parenting rather than addressing the very real issues the OP raised. It seemed as if youse didn't believe these things happen in creches or do realise it but decide to accept/ignore it

Of course childcare workers have a responsibility to report concerns but so do parents or anyone else who comes in contact with the setting for that matter.

mia1

leesmom wrote: »

i dont even know why so many people have replied to the op when clearly she was just having a bad day . she hasnt even posted since. .

But this is the thing, I see that post as more than "just having a bad day"
I see real issues being raised.
And yes she has(unless she has deleted it since)

mia1

lalalulu wrote: »

they are not regulated properly and the hse do not carry out proper inspections. There are great creches and some awful one's, unfortunately it's hard to know as a parent which is which...

Exactly!!
Thats why a discussion on the subject rather than dismissing the OPs claims may give parents an idea of what to look out for/what they need to be aware of

mia1

steps_3314 wrote: »

Why not keep those thoughts to yourself.

Many of us including myself have no choice but to use Creche facilities so i do not welcome you trying to ruin my day with bad thoughts.

This just pissed me off as im in work and my little girl is in creche at present. Dont see why you are trying to worry parents.

TBH maybe if you can't deal with the issue you shouldn't read the post rather than advising someone not to post it.

lalalulu

Mia1 clearly these issues have to dealt with and of course they should be out in the open i personally don't think boards is the place.. I wouldn't think twice about reporting abuse, neglect etc in a creche. I think th op should report any concerns she has rather than ranting on the internet...

axel rose

Mia, do you have a particular reason to overuse your """""""" when asking anything of me?

Anyhoo, Im a social care worker with the HSE. I have a lot of experience. I think its difficult to believe that this is commonplace. Any one with an interest in working with children should not ignore substandard care and policies.



Of course there are bad managers out there, there are also bad parents and bad workers. Is it commonplace? No

What I find ridiculus is the assumption is that substandard childcare practices is the fault of the parent!!!!!

you wrote:

I take it you mean all childcare workers have the power to protect children? Am I right?
Because in my opinion "you" should refer to parents aswell

Its also interesting to note that this post was origionally on rollercoaster many months ago!!! So I would really query her actual concern.

Nevyn

mia1 wrote: »

Okay you're a mod so maybe you have proof that the OP is a troll but I have reread that post a few times and I honestly do not see how everyone is viewing it as an attack on working parents! But we all view things differently i suppose depending on which side of the fence we're standing.

I have never had either of my two children in a creche so you are making assumptions. The post looked like a hit and run, I am glad now to see that it is not the case the celsy has posted again.

celsy wrote: »

Im sorry to all those offended by my opening post, this is pretty much the point i wanted to make, not to attack anyone as i know most just want the best.
To those who say why not go to the authorities and complain, I have made my views heard but to no avail.

* What am I now called - a troll, yeah it was my first post cause i just joined, what do you expect.

I am glad you came back and posted the above it pretty much means you are not a person trying to upset people. To what extent did you report what was happening?

Nevyn

axel rose wrote: »

Its also interesting to note that this post was origionally on rollercoaster many months ago!!! So I would really query her actual concern.

ok if anyone has any links they wish to forward to me on this, they would be greatly apericated.

axel rose

Unfortunately I have no idea how to do a search for a topic on that site. Its a really basic site but I remember it distinctly as it looks like she copied and pasted the OP.

Nevyn

Functionality wise it is an awful site I couldn't stand to use it and thats one of the reasons I lobbied for this one to be setup.

mia1

Thaedydal wrote: »

I have never had either of my two children in a creche so you are making assumptions.

I was not assuming anything about anyone Thaedydal.

If you are referring to my "other side of the fence" comment I meant I do not have children and therefore I can appreciate that those who do may read the OPs post differently to what I did.

mia1

axel rose wrote: »

Mia, do you have a particular reason to overuse your """""""" when asking anything of me?

No, they are used to denote your speech. What my writing style has to do with anything I don't know! But anywhoo...

axel rose wrote: »

I think its difficult to believe that this is commonplace.
Of course there are bad managers out there, there are also bad parents and bad workers. Is it commonplace? No

You seem to be contradicting yourself there. Going from thinking it's not commonplace to a definite No.
I don't see how anyone could know for sure whether it's commonplace or not. Also what extent of malpractice are you referring to. As far as I can see the OP is referring to things like practitioners having too much paperwork etc. to give the child their full attention

axel rose wrote: »

What I find ridiculus is the assumption is that substandard childcare practices is the fault of the parent!!!!!

axel rose, someone earlier in this thread said they knew their child was not being cleaned/fed properly but they choose to turn a blind eye. Other parents who replied to this thread said they did not want it discussed as it upset them too much.
The reality of the situation is in some creches, profit is the main priority not the childs welfare. If parents are aware of problems in the setting and sit back and ignore/accept it then I think it is more than fair to say that they are contributing to allowing substandard childcare practices to continue.

Now I've noticed Thaedydal has edited a few of your posts in this thread so I'm guessing you have said things that were not appropriate so I'm not going to discuss this further with you.

Anyway, as I have said I have never witnessed a child being subjected to abuse or anything to that degree in an early years setting. I have however witnessed things like the OP pointed out such as the increase in paperwork etc which takes away from the level of interaction and supervision given to the children.
I was just horrifed by the response the OP got, it seemed as if everyone wanted it swept under the carpet which is not a healthy way to deal with any issue.
The point I was making was that parents must be open to the possiblity that everything is not perfect in the child's setting, that's all!

axel rose

Mia1 this is turning into a tit for tat thing that Ive waning interest in but just to respond......
Im very glad to hear that you would report unprofessional and negligent behaviour. I believe that most people who work in creches would be like you.

As for my "Contradiction" (see we can both do it :P), I fail to see it. I stated that I hadnt seen that behaviour in 10 years, I never stated that it never ever happens. OP was suggesting that such behaviour was commonplace. It kind of reminds me of venn diagrams..........

Do you think that THE MAJORITY of parents would happily leave their children in negligent care and pay through the nose for it!!! As for the children being dropped in dirty and soiled- Is it so hard to mention it to the parents? Or is it its too much effort to do so? As for the poster who knowingly left their child in a negligent situation- I was as dumbfounded as you! Why?

Thaedyal edited one word mia. I didnt think it abusive as its a word I would use in a tongue in cheek manner but I accept that it may have been percieved as disrespectful.


I agree Mia with you that profit is the main aim of creches. We all have bills to pay. I work with children. I do it for money. I cant afford to do it for nothing. However if I feel that a child is being treated unfairly, cruely, has issues etc then hear me bloody roar!!!! Money pays me for what I do but I stay in this field because I have genuine interest, concern and really enjoy it. And I hope that it shows in how I do my job.

Lets agree not to do tit for tat mia. We cool?:cool:

Nevyn

mia1 wrote: »

If you are referring to my "other side of the fence" comment I meant I do not have children and therefore I can appreciate that those who do may read the OPs post differently to what I did.

Thank you for clarifying and posts get edited for a varity of reasons both your and axls were edited by me
I fixed the quotation tags I didn't removed anything I merely added a /

IF you have an issues with someone's post report them please rather then dismissing them and dragging the thread off topic. Thank you.

celsy

The things I have made complaints about are 'paperwork' and lack of interaction etc. Thankfully I have never witnessed or been aware of any abuse. The response I got was that that was what the HSE wants, so tough. Obviously this is not what the HSE wants, but I don't think they realise when they set out procedures, they dont think about the time constraints of the childcarers. I'm not saying now a lot of the paperwork isn't important, it is.
I appreciate if I set out my opening post in the wrong manner and again it was not an attack on parents, i really just wanted to gage if indeed there were some parents who had suspected this or was it something they even thought about.
As for making a post on rollercoaster, I have no idea about that, I get to my computer if I have the time, so sorry in my delay to some posts.

Patrick2008

I have tried to read through all the posts and any conversation about creches is always an interesting one. I understand that everyones situations are different and parents have no choice but to put there kids into childcare. We had our now 2 1/2 yr old in a creche from the age of 1 to 2 and we took him out 6 months ago as my wife went out on maternity leave with baby no.2. It is amazing how happier he is since been taken out. I dot buy it whne people say such and such a child is still friends with the kids they met at creche. How is a child from birth to 3 yrs old exptected to form relationships with other kids? It always amazed me from speaking with other parents in the creche how they had no choice but to put their kids into a creche after which they hop into their SUV etc. Wh cant parents be honest and say "I want to have kids but I dont want to mae any sacrifices. I still want to drive the nice car and go on 2 holidays a year". I also think parents have to be responsible and make harsh decisions about one of the parents staying at home to look after their kids until pre school or school going age.

It has been proven again and again throughout the world that creches are not a healthy environment for any child from birth to 3 years. Parents have a choice. A stork did not just arrive one day and drop a baby on the front door.

I think it will be interesting to see the social consequences in years to come for putting kids under the age of 3 into an environment such as a creche. I do hope that there are universities across the country preparing such a report. I was brought up on a farm and I have to say there are alot of similarities in rearing calves in a shed and having children from birth to 3 years old in a creche. In fact, the calves probably have a better lifestyle as the farmer will have better animal husbandry skills (aiming for a profit of course) and the calves will have more freedom to run around fields in the Spring, SUmmer ad Autumn.

I do think a creche would be a better enviroment if there was more open green space, less so called structured learning and less controls in place. There are some great people out there working in creches who genuinely love kids but then there are others that are just working in a creche while they "find themselves". An of course, there should be more men working in a creche. I could go on and on about this but sadly parents still have only 3 choices. (1) parent stay at home (2) child minder (3) Creche. I do believe a creche should be the VERY last choice and parents should look at pre school after the child is 3.

Patrick2008

"good quality creche setting is really positive for a child's social development". A lot of previous posters have used this statement or something similar. I hate to burst anyones bubble but it has been found in report after report in the USA that this has not been the case. Creches have been widely used inthe USA since the 1950's and 1960's and various US universities have done numerous studies carried out over 30 years. I wont go into the detai but the reports found that kids that went to creches had a higher risk of been obese, committing a crime, anti social behaviour etc. Of course, there are exceptions to the rule. Any child pschologist will tell you that the most important years of a childs life is from birth to 3 in terms of forming relationships etc. A child can best form these relationships in a small setting preferably with its parents. How it can fomr these relationships in a room with 5-10 other kids and a creche worker is beyond me.

I am not trying to be sensationalist but these are the facts. I have a Danish friend of mine and she always gets irritated when she compares Irish creches to Scandinavian creches. I know that Scandanavian creches are heavily state funded but Irish creches still charge anywhere between €800-€1200/month. In Denmark all the kids go to the forest, farms outside the city etc mor than once a week. They spend most of their time outdoors regardless of the weather. Parents just have to bring in wet suits for their kids and let them out.

axel rose

It always amazed me from speaking with other parents in the creche how they had no choice but to put their kids into a creche after which they hop into their SUV etc. Wh cant parents be honest and say "I want to have kids but I dont want to mae any sacrifices. I still want to drive the nice car and go on 2 holidays a year". I also think parents have to be responsible and make harsh decisions about one of the parents staying at home to look after their kids until pre school or school going age.

Stereotype much Patrick? :rolleyes: I guess it was selfish of my husband to drop dead instead of going to work. Sweetie not every woman is happy staying at home, not every child has two parents who are in the luxurious position to make that choice..........(Now did I leave the holiday brouchure in the SUV?)

It has been proven again and again throughout the world that creches are not a healthy environment for any child from birth to 3 years. Parents have a choice. A stork did not just arrive one day and drop a baby on the front door

Source? ( and I dont mean your scandanavian mate.)

I do think a creche would be a better enviroment if there was more open green space, less so called structured learning and less controls in place

Source? Apart from having children do you have any other experience in child development?

there should be more men working in a creche

On this I agree.

parents still have only 3 choices. (1) parent stay at home (2) child minder (3) Creche.

Eh what else do you suggest? Pappose like on my back? Dammit I have an SUV dont you know?

Nevyn

Patrick2008 could you link to those studies please.

eviltwin

Oh Patrick what a simple little world you live in. Its not as simple as "having" to work to pay for your 2 holidays a year or your designer clothes.

What about single parents? I usually find the ones who complain about kids in child care usually have issues with lone parents claiming SW..bit of a contradiction.

My daughter was in full time child care from 3 months of age ( she's almost 13 now ). I had no choice as I was claiming single parents allowance and wanted to try and get out of a cycle of poverty so I had to leave her so I could continue my education.

I then had no option but to continue to work full time so I could put a roof over my head. I bought my house during the boom years so paid well over the odds for it. What would you prefer? Taking your taxes to put us up in social housing?

Your wife is obviously very lucky that she can stay home and be the full time carer while you go out and earn enough to keep you. Its not an option for a lot of people though.

Patrick2008

I do not mean to offend anyone. You can google the following:

http://imfcanada.org/article_files/ArnheimChildCareChapter.pdf

Dr Aric Sigman. The Spoilt Generation.This is a good read.

Professor Cary Cooper, head of psychology and health at Lancaster University

National Institute of Child Health and Human Development (NICHD)
1991
"Questioning Child Care: A Government-funded Study Has Provoked Controversy about the Effects of Day Care on Children." Harvard Mental Health Letter 19 (December 2002): 6.

Everstadt, Mary. Home-Alone America: The Hidden Toll of Day Care, Behavioral Drugs, and Other Parent Substitutes. East Rutherford, NJ: Penguin Group, 2005.

Robertson, Brian C. Day Care Deception: What the Child Care Establishment Isn't Telling Us. San Francisco, CA: Encounter Books, 2004.
Greenspan, Stanley I. "Child Care Research: A Clinical Perspective." Child Development 74 (July-August 2003): 4, 1064–9.

Axel Rose. Firstly, sorry to hear about your husband. Secondly, I never said it was women I was talking to in the creche. I said "parents" and the last time I checked, parents mean a man and a woman so therefore I was referring to men and women. Thankfully I believe in equality and I am not sexist. So I think it is you that is sterotyping as you immeditely thought I was talking about women.

Evil twin. I dont live in a simple world. I am married with 2 kids and thatis far from simple.However, I am an adult and make choices. All I am doing is offering my opinion on creches. I have no problem with single parents and I dont disciminate against anyone regardess of their backgrounds. Yes, you are correct in saying that there are many single parents that are abusing the system. My sister is a single parent and she had to juggle her teaching job with her child. she was lucky as she is a teacher and her hours of work are short.

I accept that all parents have a different set of circumstances. However, I don't believe it is good enough for any parent or parents to say they had to put their child into a creche because of x,y or z. I do think this country is in the state it is in because people/parents have not been responsible in every walk of life and these same people/parents are now blaming bankers, politicans, developers for all the wrongs in the country. Sometimes the blame lies closer to home!!!

Dont get me wrong. Children in creches where caregivers respond to the children's questions, ask kids questions, read, teach, or simply talk to them will benefit in terms of intellectual and language tests than kids in settings with less language stimulation. Of course kids who spend more time watching TV may have smaller vocabularies, and more behavior issues. In both cases this will depend on the creche or the parents at home.

See I think parents blame outside sourses like creches etc if their kid is havig problems when in fact it is most probably the parent and the family set up that is the problem. Commuting 4 hours a day and putting a kid in a car at 7am ni the morning and picking them up at 6pm cannot be god.