Truth about creches.

mia1

axel rose wrote: »

Mia1 this is turning into a tit for tat thing that Ive waning interest in but just to respond......

Not on my behalf but I felt that aswell which is why I said I didn't want to discuss it further.

axel rose wrote: »

"Contradiction" (see we can both do it :P)

You also brought up my writting style in another post

axel rose wrote: »

Lets agree not to do tit for tat mia. We cool?

See point above I think this "tit for tat" you speak of is all a bit one sided. So unless you point out what I did I can't stop it
But otherwise, yea were're cool:p
[quote=axel rose;64093699Do you think that THE MAJORITY of parents would happily leave their children in negligent care and pay through the nose for it!!![/quote]

I honestly didn't believe ANY parent would knowingly leave their child in negligent care but this is my point and I think the point the OP was trying to make.
The amount of paperwork/record keeping in early years settings is increasing to make practitioners more accountable i.e to reassure parents that everything is above board.
Many parents in many of the settings I worked in, on top of these records ask for like a daily diary of the child's day to be written up. Now obviously recording what the child ate/their toilet patterns etc. are vital to record and share with the parent but having to describe activities each individual child partook in and who they played with etc. takes up a lot of time I believe could be more beneficially spent with the child. I'm sure if parents considered what their child was doing while practitioners time is taken up writing these up they may not ask insist on them.

mia1

Thaedydal wrote: »

IF you have an issues with someone's post report them please rather then dismissing them and dragging the thread off topic. Thank you.

Yeah because I'm the only one who dimissed anyones post in this thread??
At least I did so with a bit of respect, I felt no need to report the post, I just simply did not want to get into a discussion with someone who nitpicks my posts and questions my use of quotations...is that not dragging a thread off topic no?

Sleepy

While lots of parents have no choice in the matter (particularly single mothers), I believe most two parent families can survive on one income for the first four years of their children's lives but choose not to.

It's easy to get caught up in the materialism of modern life but a ten year old car is still safe for your children to be driven around in, a rented house may not offer you the chance to do the children's rooms up like princess palaces (though it's remarkable what a few posters and soft furnishings can do to transform a normal bedroom into a child's 'den') and holidays abroad are luxuries that a child will value more if they only have them occasionaly.

It is very difficult to take some parents seriously when they claim they both have to be working, most don't and tbh, I honestly think it's a failure on the part of a parent who choses material objects over rearing their children.

[begin slating]

axel rose

It is very difficult to take some parents seriously when they claim they both have to be working, most don't and tbh, I honestly think it's a failure on the part of a parent who chooses material objects over rearing their children.

Sleepy, have you considered that some parents work because they want to? m not working at the moment for reasons that I explained earlier but its bloody hard staying at home! I don't get a break, the constant need to be patient not to mention the loneliness.

I recognise that some parents want to be stay at home full time.......but its not for me. A frustrated and unhappy parent does not make a happy child.

Mia,
I can see that the amount of paperwork in creches can be frustrating, ( and TBH I don't know if its more or less than the levels in my job)- However I doubt that children set up to engage in non guided play for a period of time can be too damaging. After all I don't spend entire day actively playing with my son. (Am I a really crap parent? Maybe hes better off in the creche!)

D rog

Previous years aside...
Unless one parent of a two parent unit has a fairly bullet-proof job, I'd say a lot of people would not like to give up the safety of being a two income household at the moment.

Herbal Deity

I have always thought that two parents in full time work serve as excellent role models for children in terms of giving them an appreciation for a dedication to one's job, more of an appreciation for their parents as opposed to taking them for granted and not inducing any notions of gender stereotypes upon them, and I don't see this point of view represented enough.

mia1

axel rose wrote: »

Mia,
I can see that the amount of paperwork in creches can be frustrating, ( and TBH I don't know if its more or less than the levels in my job)- However I doubt that children set up to engage in non guided play for a period of time can be too damaging. After all I don't spend entire day actively playing with my son. (Am I a really crap parent? Maybe hes better off in the creche!)

No of course not, periods of free play's really important for children.
However in my experience, the amount of paperwork does impact on the level of supervision and puts added stress on a practitioner in what is already a stressful job which in turn will affect how they deal with the children.

axel rose

mia baby-you strike me as a person who is good at their job.

Out of a typical working day- lets say 8am to 5 pm, how much time would you spend on paperwork? Is there anyway the paperwork can be adapted so it can take less time? or is it supplied by the HSE?

In my job I can spend a minimum of 25 minutes per client per 24hr shift (or thereabouts), If there is an incident- lets say I once rushed it so I could beat the morning traffic to get to my bed!!!!! We routinely adjust parts of our paperwork so we can be more efficient with our time. Is that something you can do?

Patrick2008

axel rose wrote: »

Sleepy, have you considered that some parents work because they want to? m not working at the moment for reasons that I explained earlier but its bloody hard staying at home! I don't get a break, the constant need to be patient not to mention the loneliness.

Axel rose. Then why have kids in the first place if the parents will make a conscious decision to put their kids in the care of others. Your stattement proves my arguement that most parents treat their kids as some sort of accessory in the same way they treat other "must haves". Rememebr what our parents told us about pets not only been for Xmas etc!!!

I'll even go one better. Friends of mine who cannot have kids, decided to adpot a baby from Vietnam. They now have her in a creche. How irnonic is that. The spend over €50k to adopt a child and now they are paying €1k/month to have it in a creche.

Patrick2008

By the way did anyone bother to read the links I posted yesterday in relation to studies carried out on Creches in the USA?

I'm also surprised I did not get an apology from axel rose and evil twin for assuming I was stereotyping & living in a "simple world".

Axel Rose. Can I assume you work in the Healthcare industry?

Sleepy

axel rose wrote: »

Sleepy, have you considered that some parents work because they want to? m not working at the moment for reasons that I explained earlier but its bloody hard staying at home! I don't get a break, the constant need to be patient not to mention the loneliness.

I recognise that some parents want to be stay at home full time.......but its not for me. A frustrated and unhappy parent does not make a happy child.

TBH, I think that's why most dual-income families with children in Ireland do it. I believe that's prioritising oneself over one's children.

Yes, it's difficult being a stay at home parent. I in no way see it as being an easier option than working, in fact, I'd generally consider it to be more difficult than most jobs. However, becoming a parent brings lots of difficulties with it, it's part and parcel of having children.

I don't look down on anyone for working to provide for their children - hell, I'm currently only seeing mine for a day and a half a week because it's the only way I can put a roof over their heads - but choosing to work because you'd rather not endure the hardships of being a stay at home parent until the children are of school-going age is just selfish imho.

axel rose

EH no Patrick-you'll be getting no apology from me. Your posts are narrowminded and judgemental. So I think Ill stick to what I said, but thanks for the offer.
Its wonderful that although YOU head out to work, while your wife stays at home, you can lecture sorry wax lyrical about how selfish it is for parents to work.!!! Yes I can certainly see how your children benefit from spending time with you. :rolleyes:


I work for the department for children and families patrick.

Anyway patrick, what do you suggest (in your ideal world) I do? resign from my job and care for my son full time? So my son will never learn that money is earned- because it comes from the lady(childless of course) in the post office. Obviously I will be on SW- so thanks for paying all that tax!! Thanks to the HSE recriutment freeze, my job wont exist so its gone forever!!! Stay at home cosiness may be important to you patrick, however I feel that its important to teach my son the benefits of independance, confidence and responsibility. I also want him to mix with other children his age on a regular basis as this is important to his social development.

Quality

I have kids and work a two day week.

I am very happy with my choice of creche. My two boys are very happy in it and well cared for.

Any parent who would give up a permanent job in these times would need to get their head examined, Yes I do think it is important to spend quality time with your children.
But I also think that setting example and working and providing for our children is virtuous and setting a good example to our children.

I am sure a lot of women out there would love not to have to go to work every day.. I feel guilty leaving my boys in and I only leave them the two day. But in this day and age most young families need to have two parents working in order to pay the bills.

Patrick2008

I dont want to get into a slagging match with you axel rose. If you read any of my previous posts on this subject you will see I am not been narrow minded or judgemental. You are obviously only glancing over my posts as you have already said I was stereotyping by referring to talking to women in creches when in fact I said I was talking to parents. I dont know how you can say I am been narrow minded or judgemental. All of my statements are backed up with researched evidence carried out over the last 30 years. See previous posts.

Have you read the following report?

http://www.imfcanada.org/article_files/ArnheimChildCareChapter.pdf

go to www.imfcanada.org and go to the childcare section and you will find loads of reports on childcare. Granted, this organisation is a bit conservative in its views but by all means read any of the other studies and books I have previously highlighted. I am not trying to be sensationalist. I am trying to be as factual as possible.

If you dont have time to read the full report at least read the summary or conclusions. It is an interesting read and it reinforces what I have been saying.

Also, read the folowing article taken from the Irish Independent in 2007 if you get a chance. http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/children-now-go-to-therapy-to-help-end-creche-stress-668048.html

The title of this thread is "Truth about Creches". I am trying to stick to the theme of the thread and not get side tracked by making false or immature remarks and try and remain as objective as possible. I hope others do the same.

I find it unbelieveable when anyone speaks negetatively about creches in Ireland they get abuse thrown at them usually by guilty parents and those with vested interests in the childcare industry. I know of some Irish parental websites, forums and discussion boards whereby if someone speaks negatively about Irish creches or make complaints about certain creches or creche workers the posts are taking off the website. The website administrator will usually say it is for "legal reasons". And who pays for advertising to these websites? You guessed it. Creches. Anyway people can decide for themselves. The childcare industry is still very unregulated in Ireland and people are not getting value for money in most creches. I have only ever come across one creche in Ireland that I found to be a bit different to the usual creches in Ireland. Funnily enough it is owned and operated by a man!!!! Sorry that was not meant to be sexist. Anyway I wont mention the creche but I will say it is based in Gorey, Wexford.

axel rose

If you read any of my previous posts on this subject you will see I am not been narrow minded or judgemental. You are obviously only glancing over my posts

Your stattement proves my arguement that most parents treat their kids as some sort of accessory in the same way they treat other "must haves".

It always amazed me from speaking with other parents in the creche how they had no choice but to put their kids into a creche after which they hop into their SUV etc. Wh cant parents be honest and say "I want to have kids but I dont want to mae any sacrifices. I still want to drive the nice car and go on 2 holidays a year". I also think parents have to be responsible and make harsh decisions about one of the parents staying at home to look after their kids until pre school or school going age.

I'll even go one better. Friends of mine who cannot have kids, decided to adpot a baby from Vietnam. They now have her in a creche. How irnonic is that. The spend over €50k to adopt a child and now they are paying €1k/month to have it in a creche

Yea Patrick, you're so open minded you are practically a hippy.:rolleyes:

LittleBook

Patrick2008 wrote: »

I dot buy it whne people say such and such a child is still friends with the kids they met at creche. How is a child from birth to 3 yrs old exptected to form relationships with other kids?

I beg your pardon?

For every report or research that has reached certain conclusions (on any subject) there is another which disagrees completely. Your site is not accessible to me here as it is listed as a "Political/Activist" site.

While it's true that longitudinal studies conducted in the US since the 60's (when the business of childcare was in it's infancy) have drawn attention to problems in the childcare system there, most of these concerns have been addressed through legislation.

Furthermore, even the studies which concluded that childcare could have negative effects showed that the quality of childcare was the principal factor in this not the fact of childcare itself. The amount of time spent in childcare (and the age at which it starts) is only one of the factors which influence a child's behavioural development.

My mother often wonders at people who complain that a child which is not cared for at home by it's own parents will have problems later. "Do people seriously think that we spent all our time with our kids back in the good old days? No, we farmed them out to neigbours and relations and everyone got on with what they had to do."

The reasons why people have children and then need other people to help take care of them are many, but they are not the subject of this thread.

The testimony of every parent I know (including myself) with children who have gone through a high-quality childcare system is more valuable to me than any study you can dig up on the internet, even if you "don't buy it".

Sleepy

Quality wrote: »

I have kids and work a two day week.

I am very happy with my choice of creche. My two boys are very happy in it and well cared for.

Any parent who would give up a permanent job in these times would need to get their head examined, Yes I do think it is important to spend quality time with your children. But I also think that setting example and working and providing for our children is virtuous and setting a good example to our children.

I am sure a lot of women out there would love not to have to go to work every day.. I feel guilty leaving my boys in and I only leave them the two day. But in this day and age most young families need to have two parents working in order to pay the bills.

It sounds like you've found quite a good balance between your desire to work and your children's need to have a stay-at-home parent so please don't take my next sentence as a criticism of your parenting.

I think your last sentence is entirely wrong. When you subtract the cost of full-time childcare from the lower-earning partner's take-home pay is there really a difference significant enough to justify working a full time job for most of these families? I think not.

Taking the case of a family of two working parents a baby and a second child over the age of 1, the lower-earning parent would need to be earning a minimum of 35k a year gross to take home an extra thousand euro a month to their family. (Deducting childcare costs from an individual tax assesed salary based on figures here: http://www.consumerassociation.ie/images/childcare.pdf and using the tax calculator here: http://www.hookhead.com/Tools/tax2010.jsp).

That figure doesn't account for the extra costs of going to work - apropriate clothing, transport, luches etc. nor does it account for the loss of tax credits to the main earner in the case of a married couple, so the benefits of a second earner on 35k would actually be lower than 1k per month or the second earner would have to be earning closer to 40k p.a. to bring this level of extra income in.

So, that puts us in the position where the main income earner in this family has to be earning over 40k p.a. for it to be worth the second partner's time going to work at all in terms of a meaningful contribution to the family.

I'd contend that a family where one partner's earning over 40k p.a. (especially where the couple are married and can avail of the relevant tax incentives) should be able to support themselves and two children on that income level without too much hardship.

One of the major problems facing Irish society is that many of our generation feel that we should all have the lives of the wealthy, regardless of the cost in terms of parenting our children receive or the levels of debt they take on to attempt to fund a 'lifestyle'.

Quality, again I'd disagree with your statement that both parents working sets a good example for children. I think it's sets the example for them that working hard is more important than raising them. In a family where the mother goes out to work while the father stays at home with the kids, the children are given the good example of working for a living by their mammy and the good example that children are important from their father (I've reversed the gender roles of traditional Irish society to try and avoid dragging this into a "woman's place is in the home" debate because I look at the decision as to which parent should stay at home of one of utility to the couple - i.e. which arrangement will result in a happier / more financially stable life for them).


(btw: I'm aware of the fact that I fairly arbitrarily picked the figure of 1k per month as the level at which a second salary becomes a 'meaningful contribution' to the family. Possibly more related to personal circumstances than anything else but if there's anyone out there brave enough to suggest a full-time parent / home-maker contribution to the family is worth less than 1k per month by all means try and make the argument, I'd disagree with you politely but others might, and perhaps not without justification, lynch you for it )

Sleepy

LittleBook wrote: »

The testimony of every parent I know (including myself) with children who have gone through a high-quality childcare system is more valuable to me than any study you can dig up on the internet, even if you "don't buy it".

Annecdotal evidence given by someone with a motivation* to have a positive take on something isn't the most reliable source of information.

* I'm not suggesting the motivation is one of self-interest or an attempt to deceive but most parents will try to convince themselves that they've done the best they can for their children.

Quality

It sounds like you've found quite a good balance between your desire to work and your children's need to have a stay-at-home parent so please don't take my next sentence as a criticism of your parenting.

Thanks Sleepy, I must say your post reads very well and I dont feel any criticism, as stated in my previous post, I do feel guilty leaving my boys but it is in my best interests to stay employed.

I think your last sentence is entirely wrong. When you subtract the cost of full-time childcare from the lower-earning partner's take-home pay is there really a difference significant enough to justify working a full time job for most of these families? I think not.

I think that having two parents work can be very well justified. There are no guarantees in a job anymore, What if only one parent worked and they lost there job, that would mean there would be two parents unemployed.

Also in cases where young parents are not in the position to be able to afford to get a mortgage ona house and are renting. You would want to be earning a very high salary as a one income household in order for the banks to take a chance on you.

Taking the case of a family of two working parents a baby and a second child over the age of 1, the lower-earning parent would need to be earning a minimum of 35k a year gross to take home an extra thousand euro a month to their family. (Deducting childcare costs from an individual tax assesed salary based on figures here: http://www.consumerassociation.ie/images/childcare.pdf and using the tax calculator here: http://www.hookhead.com/Tools/tax2010.jsp).

That figure doesn't account for the extra costs of going to work - apropriate clothing, transport, luches etc. nor does it account for the loss of tax credits to the main earner in the case of a married couple, so the benefits of a second earner on 35k would actually be lower than 1k per month or the second earner would have to be earning closer to 40k p.a. to bring this level of extra income in.

I know there are a lot of costs incurred in travelling to work and raising kids, but you have to also take into account the extra costs incurred by stay at home parents. Gas, electricity bills increased. Food and lunches still have to be paid for, and when a child begins playschool/montessori, the money will have to come from somewhere.

One of the major problems facing Irish society is that many of our generation feel that we should all have the lives of the wealthy, regardless of the cost in terms of parenting our children receive or the levels of debt they take on to attempt to fund a 'lifestyle'.

I dont think that all people attempt to fund a "lifestyle". Some people work a job in order to pay bills and just survive.

Quality, again I'd disagree with your statement that both parents working sets a good example for children. I think it's sets the example for them that working hard is more important than raising them. In a family where the mother goes out to work while the father stays at home with the kids, the children are given the good example of working for a living by their mammy and the good example that children are important from their father (I've reversed the gender roles of traditional Irish society to try and avoid dragging this into a "woman's place is in the home" debate because I look at the decision as to which parent should stay at home of one of utility to the couple - i.e. which arrangement will result in a happier / more financially stable life for them).

I still disagree, Ireland is a changed place, my mam gave up work the day she was married, she stayed at home and raised us. And we still managed to have a lifestyle.

However, Had I not worked after I had children, I would not have a mortgage, a secure place to raise my children, never mind a lifestyle.

Sleepy

Quality, I think that's where we disagree and I alluded to it in my first post on this thread - to my mind owning one's own home in Ireland is buying into a lifestyle. Houses still aren't at anything like an affordable level, and won't be until they can be afforded on a reasonable single salary.

How many people do you know that didn't have their first home fully "kitted out" within a couple of weeks of getting the keys? In our parents day you got the house and spent the first few years trying to do it up, buying things when you could afford them according to the priority to they were needed. Somewhere along the way we all seemed to forget this.

Quality

Sleepy wrote: »

Quality, I think that's where we disagree and I alluded to it in my first post on this thread - to my mind owning one's own home in Ireland is buying into a lifestyle. Houses still aren't at anything like an affordable level, and won't be until they can be afforded on a reasonable single salary.

How many people do you know that didn't have their first home fully "kitted out" within a couple of weeks of getting the keys? In our parents day you got the house and spent the first few years trying to do it up, buying things when you could afford them according to the priority to they were needed. Somewhere along the way we all seemed to forget this.

Well I think that having a stable home for a child is important, It is not buying into lifestyle. It is providing for your child.

I didnt have my first home kitted out within a few weeks, I had no floors down stairs for a good 15 months.

But seriously where is this thread going? Creches are a neccessity, If people are not happy with the service they are getting, or the way things are being handled or the way their child is being treated. They should talk with their feet.

There are plenty of Creches out there that run professional services and have professional staff out there working in them.

If I was unhappy with my childs care, I would have them out in an instant. NO second chance.

celsy

I think childcare is indeed a vocation, but it's also a low-paid job where owners employ usually people just out of school with no childcare qualifications (this is changing now with the introduction of the ECCE). Obviously before people start jumping on the band-wagon, this is not always the case with many childcarers having outstanding qualifications and sufficient pay.
I think a total-overhaul is needed in the childcare sector in regard to child-ratio's, particulary for children aged from 1-3 years where the ratio is 6 children to 1 adult, usually in a creche there would be at least 12 children with 2 adults and i have worked in a creche with 18 children in this age group to 3 staff members. Surely this environment cannot be beneficial.

Sleepy

We'll have to agree to disagree vis a vis home ownership being a requirement to the provision of a stable home.

Where creches are a necessity, I'd agree entirely Quality. However:

There's a structural problem that makes the industry have a very high cost base though so good care, unless state-subsidized, will always be very expensive and demographics may ensure a lack of competition in certain areas (mainly rural / regional towns).

As far as I remember from doing research to write a business plan on setting up a creched as part of my undergrad the insurance is handled by a not-for-profit association which the créches can sign up to but is still expensive (probably due to the levels of compensation which could potentially be paid out - total guess though), though wages are actually very low staffing levels have to be high so payroll is expensive and the cost of fitting out and maintaing a premises is high (never mind rent or land and the build cost of the building itself). Our conclusion for the business plan was that the location we'd chosen etc. all worked out to a profitable business but the profit levels were in the region of 10% before tax so not exactly high. (Take all of that with the liberal dose of salt required for a business plan written by a bunch of students).

Some sort of intervention may be required to try and reduce the cost base (the obvious is to find a way of reducing the insurance costs) in order to make the industry one with high profit levels available for well run, affordable creches to encourage more entrants into the market and foster competition to drive higher standards and more choice.

I think I'll always consider a creche to be a poor substitute for a full-time parent but where they're necessary they should certainly be of the absolute highest standard, strictly regulated and checked (a whistleblower financial incentive for staff to report problems to the relevant authorities would probably work wonders given how low most of their pay is).

Herbal Deity

Sleepy wrote: »

I think I'll always consider a creche to be a poor substitute for a full-time parent

Are there many studies showing this though? Or is this simply an opinion?

I have always put my high ambition and drive in life down to the fact that my parents were both equally hard workers who succeeded in their respective careers and were a terrific influence on me.

I don't see it to be essential that a parent be around a child 24/7. I was in a creche from about 8 until 3/4 5 days a week until I was 4, and I'm perfectly psychologically stable and whatever.

I think those who are against creches probably had a stay home parent, and lean towards thinking that when both parents in a family are working, the children spend all their time in a creche and the parents never spend time with their kids.

Honestly, I have much less respect for stay at home parents than people generally seem to have. This is probably due to my personal life experiences, similar to the reasons I imagine those who had a stay at home parent look down on families where both parents worked.

themysteriouson

On a bit of a more positive note!
I have a 2 year old who is in creche Monday to Friday as myself and my Partner work full time and so do our family so no free babysitters
I have found the creche that she is in to be one of the best things I've ever decided on.
She has a great time when she goes, they teach them so much and has never come home with any suspicous marks or dirty or hungry. I have to say the girls do a great job and will ring me to let me know if anything happens. They are so great with the kids and work really hard. All the kids absolutely love them and I would never think there would be any lack of care there.

Patrick2008

Does anyone have any views on outdoor creches or if they exist in Ireland?

metrovelvet

Patrick2008 wrote: »

Does anyone have any views on outdoor creches or if they exist in Ireland?

My son is in creche for a couple of mornings.I enrolled him so he could have exposure to other people as it was just me and him on our own for a long time.

Personally I would not like to have a child in a creche for 9 hours a day and rushed out the door every morning and then at home an hour for a bath, dinner and then bed. If I had to, my ideal would be part time creche and part time child minder in our home in his space, with his garden, and his stuff.

However, what I really like about the creche he goes to is the outdoor space. They not only have a playground but a sheltered area where they can play outside when its raining. Outside time is crucial.

Boo!!!

lalalulu wrote: »

Kosmo, surely turning a blind eye isn't the way to deal with it? There are plenty of great creches and childminders out there and not all are expensive..

This is to the writer of the thread and to KOSMO. I am a childcare worker and agree the paper work is too much and takes up time you could be spending with the children however, with the right amount of staff per room (ie correct ratios) and caring patient staff, a creche can be a warm loving place for children. Children get dirty especially young children but the food thing is definitley a concern so I would complain about that KOSMO.

Orion

2 years ago that would have been relevant. Necro thread closed.