Irish Times article - The Route of the Problem

antoinolachtnai

Conor Pope/Pricewatch

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/pricewatch/2010/0118/1224262561518.html

Complicated and not user-friendly, our public transport system needs to put the consumer, not the provider, first

EVEN FIRST-TIME visitors arriving in most European capitals can quite easily work out the best way to get around the cities within a few minutes of arriving at the airport, with tickets designed to work across all modes of public transport easy to find and easy to understand.

It’s not so simple in Ireland, however, and even regular bus users who have lived in Dublin for more than a decade struggle to identify the pre-paid tickets that might best suit their needs, or even if such tickets exists.

The Siemens European Green Cities Index, compiled by the Economist Intelligence Unit and published last month, ranked Dublin 21st out of 30 in a list of the greenest cities in Europe and described it as the worst city in Europe in terms of its transport infrastructure.

It showed that just one in five people use public transport, compared to 42 per cent across Europe, and found that the length of the capital’s public transport network and its cycle lanes were well below the 30-city average. It also criticised the lack of a fully integrated ticketing system for public transport.

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spank_inferno

ok article.

There are so many reasons why public transport fails in dublin but it all "chicken & eggs" back to the fact that those that make the decisions dont use the service.

serfboard

spank_inferno wrote: »

those that make the decisions dont use the service.

1000% agree with this and have said so many times. But I'm going to repeat it again.

No-one in the Department of Transport, from the Minister down, should be allowed to take private transport to work.

kpbdublin

The information provided by Dublin bus including route maps and web site is shockingly uninformative. Take a look at this. It doesn't even show where routes like the 46 A go.
http://www.dublintourist.com/maps/dublin_bus.shtml

I have lived in Dublin for three decades and most of Dublin's bus routes remain a mystery. Bus routes need to be redrawn to take account of schools and movement within suburbs. Everything fans out from the city centre. There is little account taken for example that people might go from A to B without wanting to go near the city centre.

They are so flat-footed. Perhaps if all government ministers had their limos taken away for a fortnight, we'd see some coherence.

Cookie_Monster

kpbdublin wrote: »

The information provided by Dublin bus including route maps and web site is shockingly uninformative. Take a look at this. It doesn't even show where routes like the 46 A go.
http://www.dublintourist.com/maps/dublin_bus.shtml

I have lived in Dublin for three decades and most of Dublin's bus routes remain a mystery. Bus routes need to be redrawn to take account of schools and movement within suburbs. Everything fans out from the city centre. There is little account taken for example that people might go from A to B without wanting to go near the city centre.

They are so flat-footed. Perhaps if all government ministers had their limos taken away for a fortnight, we'd see some coherence.

I agree with you point but that map clearly shows 46a in DL, Kill o the Grange, Foxrock, Stillorgan, Mount Merrion and Donnybrook

noelfirl

kpbdublin wrote: »

The information provided by Dublin bus including route maps and web site is shockingly uninformative. Take a look at this. It doesn't even show where routes like the 46 A go.
http://www.dublintourist.com/maps/dublin_bus.shtml

Small steps being made in changing this:
http://www.dublinbus.ie/en/News-Centre/Travel-News/Route-Network-Diagram/

I have lived in Dublin for three decades and most of Dublin's bus routes remain a mystery. Bus routes need to be redrawn to take account of schools and movement within suburbs. Everything fans out from the city centre. There is little account taken for example that people might go from A to B without wanting to go near the city centre.

A network review is also in progress, which is likely to lead to some changes to the network, including simplification and removal of overlapping routes.

edanto

That route map looks promising! I mean that must have been produced because somebody somewhere is looking at improving the routes or the service. Unfortunately, like many Dublin Bus projects, it looks good, but it's rather useless for most people.

I thought the article was pretty good. It's central point is that the public transport systems in Dublin don't put the commuter first. You can't argue with that!

The delay over integrated ticketing is a great example of just how disorganised the sector is. As far as I understand it, they haven't been able to agree revenue sharing. Is it not blatantly clear that they all stand to gain? If it were three private companies, I'm sure that they would have found a solution at this stage, or at least tried something and then improved it.

The problem is something peculiar to the semi-states, to they way they are managed. The blame for the difficulty in using Dublin's public transport system is shared by those at the top of all the semi states involved, and the senior government staff.

They should all be required to travel by public transport, perhaps a resourceful investigative journalist would call them all up and ask how often they use the services that they manage?

KC61

kpbdublin wrote: »

The information provided by Dublin bus including route maps and web site is shockingly uninformative. Take a look at this. It doesn't even show where routes like the 46 A go.
http://www.dublintourist.com/maps/dublin_bus.shtml

I have lived in Dublin for three decades and most of Dublin's bus routes remain a mystery. Bus routes need to be redrawn to take account of schools and movement within suburbs. Everything fans out from the city centre. There is little account taken for example that people might go from A to B without wanting to go near the city centre.

They are so flat-footed. Perhaps if all government ministers had their limos taken away for a fortnight, we'd see some coherence.

On both fronts there has been movement.

There is now a full network map of Dublin Bus routes.
http://www.dublinbus.ie/PageFiles/2814/NetworkDiagram.pdf

There is a full network review ongoing within Dublin Bus, the results of which will be implemented in 2010 - this involves implementing the recommendations of the Deloitte report which include:
- Redesigning the route network and the timetables to have a core route that operates directly along each QBC backed up with other routes that serve housing estates/villages
- Co-ordinating timetables along each corridor where possible
- Redesigning the timetable information to provide information relevant to each stop

There is still a problem with orbital routes. Unlike routes operating along QBCs to/from the city, most people's individual journeys are not the same. This makes planning bus routes very difficult as they need to maximise the passenger numbers using the routes to make them viable. Hence the routes (such as the 17 and 75) take the routes they do, serving major conurbations/shopping centres along the way.

KC61

edanto wrote: »

That route map looks promising! I mean that must have been produced because somebody somewhere is looking at improving the routes or the service. Unfortunately, like many Dublin Bus projects, it looks good, but it's rather useless for most people.

I thought the article was pretty good. It's central point is that the public transport systems in Dublin don't put the commuter first. You can't argue with that!

The delay over integrated ticketing is a great example of just how disorganised the sector is. As far as I understand it, they haven't been able to agree revenue sharing. Is it not blatantly clear that they all stand to gain? If it were three private companies, I'm sure that they would have found a solution at this stage, or at least tried something and then improved it.

The problem is something peculiar to the semi-states, to they way they are managed. The blame for the difficulty in using Dublin's public transport system is shared by those at the top of all the semi states involved, and the senior government staff.

They should all be required to travel by public transport, perhaps a resourceful investigative journalist would call them all up and ask how often they use the services that they manage?

You sum the mess that is public transport up quite well in that much of it does not have a customer focus. However I think that you need to realise that the problem is not just Dublin Bus related. It is Department of Transport and Government related too.

The amount of delays and obfuscation by the Department relating to route licensing is simply shocking and takes no account of the customer whatsoever, but rather is governed by their fear of potentially being sued by other operators. It has deprived people of a decent service from both Dublin Bus and private operators and one would hope that the new National Transport Agency will take a more customer focussed approach.

As far as integrated ticketing is concerned, I'll again reiterate my thoughts on this.

The principal reason that we don’t have integrated tickets like (for example the Oyster Card in London) is because the Dept of Transport (through the RPA) is trying to build an unholy monster of an integrated ticketing system, rather than keeping it simple.

In London, there is a flat fare on all bus routes, and the fare structure offered by Oyster encourages pre-purchase by rewarding regular users with large discounts. Secondly, in London the money collected is kept by the regulator (TfL), and the bus companies are then paid a fixed amount for running the bus service by TfL, so the operator gets the same money if the bus is full or empty.

In Dublin they want to share the money between all of the different bus companies for every journey made. They also want to have different fares for different journeys (or indeed bus companies), and to have most people still paying single fares. Trying to do this with an integrated ticketing system is too complex and bureaucratic, and is costing an absolute fortune to develop.

In order to have simple (London style) integrated ticketing, people need to start lobbying for a city wide flat fare, with the new regulator (DTA) keeping the money (as the RPA does with LUAS) and paying a fixed rate to bus companies for providing the services.

The individual bus operators do not want this approach, because it takes away their independence, despite the fact that it is most definitely the best for the customer, the bus user.

monument

Good article on the whole, you can only fit so much into an article around 1,000 words which tries to cover both national and city transport.

Although, I would add: It fails to mention some of the important things already mentioned like Deloitte's Cost and Efficiency Review of Dublin Bus and Bus Eireann, and the resulting Dublin Bus network review. There's the huge issue of political will, and, on the other hand, political interference with streamlining the network.

There's also the bus gate which is now back running -- this partly addresses one of the major faults in the Dublin Bus network as identified by Deloitte: City centre congestion. And there's the issue of a number of still disconnected bus lanes, bus lanes with limited running hours, and bus / cycle lanes which are not wide enough for a bus to pass a cyclists.

Elsewhere, to speed up boarding times, Dublin Bus needs to follow London's lead in discouraging cash fairs (ie making huge increases in the cost) and promote pre-paid tickets / smart card tickets (marketing and keep pricing lower). And, of course, this is in part hindered by slow integrated ticketing smart card progress.

Slice

My biggest gripe with Dublin Bus is the fact that there are no alternatives to cash fares for fares of a certain value (€1.60 tickets for example).

Another one is that the routes in the city centre are not clear to me. I've started using buses in the city centre more often since the 50c city centre fare was introduced but I often get on a bus without knowing if it'll get me to where I want to go for short city-centre hops. This happens to me often when I'm on the approach from Rathmines with the intention of going to Georges Street only to find I'm on a bus that goes round by Leeson St/Stephen's Green instead. or any bus from O'Connell Street southbound for that matter - who knows if I'll find myself down Dame Street, Kildare Street or somewhere in the direction of Hawkins House and the Screen Cinema ...it's just all so confusing.

KC61

If it's any help, here's a quick guide from those locations:

Basically if you are on O'Connell Street the following are the buses directions southbound:

Georges Street: 16/a, 19/a, 122
Dame Street: 121, 123
Nassau Street/Merrion Square: 4/a, 5, 7/a/b/d, 8, 13/a
Nassau Street/St Stephen's Green: 10/a, 11/a/b, 14/a, 46/a/b/c/d/e, 63, 140, 145, 746
Townsend Street/Pearse Street: 1, 2, 3
Townsend Street/Westland Row/St Stephen's Green: 48a

Heading from Rathmines:
Via Georges Street: 15e/f, 65/b, 83
Via St Stephen's Green & Suffolk Street: 14/a, 15/a/b, 128

Chris_533976

How true is this shambles???

With the opening up of the motorway connecting Galway and Dublin, you might be forgiven for assuming that Bus Éireann would be in pole position to capitalise on much faster journey times. Unfortunately, the bus company is not licensed to operate on motorways – even its express services have to follow the old routes with passengers and drivers alike left to look longingly at the new motorway which would get them to their destination a whole lot faster.

Can BE seriously not go on motorways at all?

KC61

Chris_533976 wrote: »

How true is this shambles???



Can BE seriously not go on motorways at all?

There are three operators on Dublin/Galway. Bus Eireann and Citylink hold stopping licences while Gobus have the non-stop licence.

As we know Citylink are operating a non-stop service which the Department views as unlicensed and therefore illegal.

Bus Eireann have two workings ex-Dublin and one ex-Galway that are numbered X20 that operate on the motorway for certain parts of the route (Athlone/Dublin Airport for example).

They're fairly obvious in the timetable!
http://www.buseireann.ie/pdf/1257521061-20.pdf

But that is the service that Bus Eireann is licensed by the DoT or now NTA to operate and they can't deviate from that.

Vic_08

Not the worst article ever written on the subject, a reasonable stab from a layman. Biggest fault was the over reliance on self-serving anti-CIE crap from an obviously biased source. Unfortunately that is pretty standard of Irish journalism, take an opinion and present it as fact, voila a juicy story. The truth in this matter, as often is the case, is far more murky and less palatable to the casual newspaper reader

Chris_533976 wrote: »

How true is this shambles??? Can BE seriously not go on motorways at all?

It is true-ish. Almost all BE Galway-Dublin services are timetabled to operate via towns along the old N6/N4 so they mostly stay on that road. If there is a second bus used on a departure that is not required to serve some or all of these towns it will go via the quickest route.

As for operating scheduled expresses via the M6, BE have had an application in with the DOT for a lengthy period and have not been granted a licence for it. Burkes of Tuam were granted a licence and set up Go-Bus, Citylink have not been granted a licence and started their express service anyway.

On other routes BE do use the motorways for some or all of the journey depending on the stopping points although it is fair to say that too many express routes (of both BE and other operators) stay on the increasingly bypassed N routes to serve small towns and villages to the detriment of city-city traffic.

Carawaystick

I know the stopping citylink busses go on the M6 from Balinafast to Athlone and from Athlone to Moate, and from Kilcock to Co. Dublin on the M4. I'd imagine the Bus Éireann services are similar.

A large part of the problem can be blamed on pensioners, one called Julie in particular.....

dowlingm

Carawaystick wrote: »

A large part of the problem can be blamed on pensioners, one called Julie in particular.....

Did I miss an in-joke?

Carawaystick

dowlingm wrote: »

Did I miss an in-joke?

the former head of the dept of transport retired with great praise from Noel Dempsey last year. she was basically responsible for the licensing of public transport - well if you believe that the head of a department has responsibility for what that department actually does. guess what her name is?

unJustMary

Vic_08 wrote: »

On other routes BE do use the motorways for some or all of the journey depending on the stopping points although it is fair to say that too many express routes (of both BE and other operators) stay on the increasingly bypassed N routes to serve small towns and villages to the detriment of city-city traffic.

And if you believe that the only reason for having a state-owned bus company is to service the routes that commercial operators cannot make a profit on, but which the government wants to provide service to, then this is A Good Thing.

I'm not sure if I do believe this or not: the government has some other objectives (enabling tourist traffic) and OTOH there's no reason why private companies could not be subsidised to run the non-commercial routes.

But there will always be a need for the so-called "multi-stop" services.