4x4 For Snow + Ice

the mucker

fonecrusher1 wrote: »

Yeah i was just about to say this! Theres no way a 90 series gets a maximum of 28 mpg.
My surf has the same 3 Ltr Td as the early landcruiser colorado's & i can get up to 30/31 mpg & no lower than 25 mpg.

The thing about pulling a caravan with a suzuki Vitara is yes it will do it but is not a little bit out of its depth pulling such a heavy load. If the OP is planning on doing some caravaning in the future then that has changed the criteria a lot. Maybe he is better off with a full size 4x4? They really are the best for towing.

I have pulled up to 2.25 tonnes on tandem axle ifor williams. Probably shouldnt have done it but engaged 4L and handled it no problem. have regulary pulled triaxle ifor williams with cars on board. Agreed these are jobs for a landcruiser or similar but vitara should fly with a caravan

the mucker

Satts wrote: »

How does the Toyota rav4 compare with the Suzuki Grand Vitara ?

Rav4 is probably more refined on road but i wouldnt rate it off road or for towing.

Bitten & Hisses

Satts wrote: »

How does the Toyota rav4 compare with the Suzuki Grand Vitara ?

The RAV 4 is fitted with the infamous Dual Mass Flywheel and by all accounts it is prone to failure, which is a pain in the wallet.

fonecrusher1

To be honest i wouldnt really take a toyota rav4 seriously. Grand for a muddy field but thats about it. I'd say most Vitara owners get annoyed at the regular comparison.
A Vitara is a proper 4x4, it just comes with smaller size engines thats all. Just look them up in youtube & you'll get idea of what they're capable of.

Actually it probably would suit the OP perfectly.

Satts

the mucker wrote: »

Probably shouldnt have done it but engaged 4L and handled it no problem.

Suzuki Grand Vitara .
As I haven't driven one of these before and 4x4 terms are new to me (e.g 4L) , would it be possible for someone to explain to me the 4x4 modes on this vehicle ?

Is there a mode on this vehicle where you drive in 2WD and the 4WD will kick in automatically if you need it ?

Would I be correct in saying there are three modes on this vehicle ?
1. 2WD
2. Auto mode which operates in 2WD but changes in and out 4WD automatically when the wheels start slipping.
3. Full 4WD.

Also, in 2WD, is this vehicle front or rear wheel drive ?

peasant

The old type grand vitara is selectable 4WD which means it is normally rear wheel drive and to engage 4WD you have to pull a lever (which can be done while it's driving)

It has no centre differential and can't be driven in 4WD on dry roads

the mucker

the old Vitara has three ranges on a second gear lever

2wd high range (2h) (normal driving on dry roads, parking, low speed manoeuvering on hard surfaces) In 2wd the drive is to the rear wheels so the vitara can be a bit tail happy on wet roads in 2wd.

4wd high range (4h) -full four wheel drive using the same gear ratios as 2wd. use for driving in snow, ice, wet roads towing and most mild off road applications in

4wd low range (4l) full four wheel drive nut using lower gear ratios. you must stop the vitara totally to engage 4l. I dont knoew the exact reduction but usually in the order of 30-50% lower than normal ranges above. for use in extreme conditions like heavy snow, extreme off road conditions, heavy towing applications or towing off road. 4l really shouldnt be used on roads at all other than maybe in weather like last week.


Many softroaders like freelander do not have low range 4wd. however they do have permanent 4wd but usually electronically controlled and tied in with abs system (is this correct) and not as aggressive as mechanical 4wd. but you dont have to worry about engaging/disengaging 4wd. after driving the vitara for a week or two you get the feel for it.

101sean

Mucker is right about Freelander and many modern smaller 4x4s being permanantly in 4wd, not having low range, and doing it all for you. I think you are getting too concerned about the technicalities of how they work at this stage, a vehicle that is guaranteed to get you from A to B in ice and snow doesn't exist without the driver knowing how to use it no matter how tricked out it is. The Zook (along with many older simple 4x4s and most current 4x4 pickups) will be old style 4x4, only in 4x4 when you chose to use it exactly as mucker expalined. Some bigger jap 4x4 and Jeeps over complicate it with loads of modes. All Land Rovers and the best Jap machines are permanantly in 4wd with varying degrees of how that's managed. Bewildering isn't it :rolleyes:

Look at what sort or size of vehicle you want (difficult with so many toys in the shop window:D) and do you want it think for you or are you happy to pull levers and learn to drive it properly.

thethedev

Here in the highlands of Scotland Subarus are king.
Tough reliable cars and well able to handle all but the deepest snow.
I have an older model legacy myself (98) coped fantastically in the recent snow and ice and the low range was great for slippery descents.
Not a proper offroader by any means, it is essentialy just a car. Unfortunatley it drinks petrol as much as any proper 4x4 would.
I don't think the newer models come with low range anymore?? But I could be wrong.
High service costs and the boxer engines really need to be looked after well or it'll cost you a fortune.
Because of the above I reckon they're a bit of a false economy unless you really want a refined road car that can handle a bit of snow/mud/ice.

A bit of a wild notion, but how about picking up an older wee suzuki of some sort and holding onto it in case of emergencys?
Cheap tax and insurance.
If you can get your hands on 1.9 diesel Vitara van then you're laughing. Good for around town to because of their small size but I wouldn't want to do too many long journeys in one.
At least then you'll have proper 4x4 that can handle anything deeper if needed and be able to hold onto your current car which I'm assuming you're happy with.

The problem with traditional big 4x4s is unless the road is a pure sheet of ice/snow/gravel its not a good idea to put one into 4x4.
When in normal 2wd mode they usually drive the rear wheels only which makes them a bit harder to control if you hit a patch of ice.(I dont think this applies the most Landrovers though as they are permanently in 4x4 )*
2,000kg + rear wheel drive is never a good combination.



*This is one of the many things Landrovers and the Lada Niva have in common, including having a hazard switch where the ignition key would normally be:P

Satts

101sean wrote: »

I think you are getting too concerned about the technicalities of how they work at this stage,

I have never driven rear wheel drives, so I think that if I buy a 4x4 that normally operates in 2 wheel, rear wheel drive, I will be worse off in mixed conditions.

I have to be concerned with the technicalities so I end up with the most suitable vehicle.

I think I would feel safer in an AWD car or a pemanent 4x4, but I don't want a big monster.

peasant

Satts wrote: »

I think I would feel safer in an AWD car or a pemanent 4x4, but I don't want a big monster.

Other than the obvious SUV's / offroaders this would leave:
Fiat Panda 4x4, Fiat Sedici, any Subaru, Audi quattro

There also would be AWD versions of other cars (Renault Kangoo Trekka, Mercedes 4matic, VW 4-motion and the odd Japanese import) but they'd be rare and hard to find here.

Satts

thethedev wrote: »

A bit of a wild notion, but how about picking up an older wee suzuki of some sort and holding onto it in case of emergencys?
Cheap tax and insurance.

Yes, this has crossed my mind. Maybe buy something and just tax it for 3 months of the year.

JohnBoy

my thoughts.

tyres, tyres, tyres.

get a set of proper winter tyres, consider ice/snow tyres even, ideally get a spare set of rims from a breaker, order some snow tyres online and get them fitted locally and then come the spring just swap back to your regular tyres. it's the done thing in many countries around the world, and when you factor in that you're not wearing out your summer tyres over the winter they shouldnt actually even cost that much extra.


get something with full time 4wd. in mixed conditions, which we get a share of here, it's a bit of a dose swapping in and out of 4wd every time things get iffy. (for fear of damaging the transfer box)

it's nice to know you're in 4wd in case there's ice just around that bend.



I was in 2wd cos there was no ice on the road outside my house. sadly there was sheet ice a few hundred yards down the road. being in 4wd would most likely have prevented this from happening




(and yes, before someone points out, driving slower, not changing gear just when I did, leaving earlier, are all other factors that would have probably helped too)

JohnBoy

For what it's worth, this is my suggestion.

this:
http://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/201001349779144/sort/priceasc/usedcars/make/skoda/fuel-type/diesel/page/1/keywords/4x4/postcode/bt487nn/radius/1500?previous=/search/results/usedcars/postcode/bt487nn/radius/1500/make/skoda/keywords/4x4/fuel-type/diesel/page/1/sort/priceasc&logcode=p

plus

http://www.camskill.co.uk/products.php?plid=m11b0s703p5859

or similar, should make for a pretty decent compromise

E39MSport

IMO nothing except specialist (studded etc) tyres grip on ice. I lost control twice on ice in my cruiser running BFG KO's. OH lost it in a starlet on the same piece of road.

the mucker

thethedev wrote: »

Here in the highlands of Scotland Subarus are king.
Tough reliable cars and well able to handle all but the deepest snow.
:P

Would agree with this
Full time four wheel drive excellent road manners The outback is probably the one to go for. Petrol legacy/outbacks are getting cheap because of the thirst and high tax on 2.5l models.

Newer diesels from 08 on are hard to find and still pricey. Drove one last year and fell in love. No low ratio gearbox any more though.

KoNiT

ye scoobie.. I know it's sliiiightly out of the OP's financial range but..

http://www.videosift.com/video/The-world-s-fastest-snowcat-A-Subaru-Impreza-WRX-STI-one

:eek:

adamaca

I think any 4x4 with serious tyres will do the job you want.

Something to bear in mind is that all 4wd does is give you traction, that is to say it only has advantages when your foot is on the throttle.
Its not gonna do anything when your foot is on the middle peddle.
So if you go into a bend and suddenly hit black ice your going into the ditch period.:eek:
Similarily if your driving on snow and a car pulls out in front of you or you brake too late for a corner its not going to help. Remember all cars have 4 wheel brakes!
The best thing for grip and stopping power in bad conditions in fact any conditions is good tyres.

If the vehicle is only going to be used on road then as I said at the top any 4wd with serious tyres will do the job.

So my advice would be choose somrhting with 4wd that best suits your needs the other 350days of the year, and keep a set of snow tyres on rims in the garage.

peasant

adamaca wrote: »

Something to bear in mind is that all 4wd does is give you traction, that is to say it only has advantages when your foot is on the throttle.
Its not gonna do anything when your foot is on the middle peddle.

Just to be a stickler here ...

As long as you drive with some foresight and slow down instead of using the brakes, an AWD vehicle also has double the grip on slowing as it has on accelerating.

(This is where the low gearbox can come in handy. On a really steep, icy hill you put it in first low and just ease it down on its own momentum, never touching the brakes.)

Deer Hunter DL

the best thing for snow and ice is a light car with good snow tyres

JohnBoy

E39MSport wrote: »

IMO nothing except specialist (studded etc) tyres grip on ice. I lost control twice on ice in my cruiser running BFG KO's. OH lost it in a starlet on the same piece of road.

snow/ice/winter tyres, the non studded ones, will grip far more on ice than regular summer tyres that we all run here in ireland.

life goes on in icy countries all over the world thanks to these types of tyres, they're made from much softer compounds than summer tyres and contain far higher levels of silica.

Satts

JohnBoy wrote: »

snow/ice/winter tyres, the non studded ones, will grip far more on ice than regular summer tyres that we all run here in ireland.
life goes on in icy countries all over the world thanks to these types of tyres, they're made from much softer compounds than summer tyres and contain far higher levels of silica.

I rang a couple of local tyre dealers today to ask about winter tyres.
The response was that they only sell tyres for Irish conditions,
I asked where have you been for the last six weeks ? They just started laughing. Would probably have to buy them online and get them fitted locally.

It looks easy enough to get snow chains online, but very hard to get studded tyres. I know this sounds extreme but I'm looking at all options so we have a good chance of getting to the hospital if we need to.

I know studded tyres sounds extreme but if you traveled up and down the steep icy hills I travel, in first gear(going down hill) with no excellerator and you still skid, an AWD car with studded tyres sounds like heaven.
Also, I work 12 hour shifts, going to work at 7-7.30am and coming home 8-8.30pm, with a good chance of being below zero at both these times.

JohnBoy

Oh yeah, I'd be highly surprised if anyone in ireland had winter tyres available.

we drive on what the rest of the world calls summer tyres, not even all seasons.

the likes of camskill and eiretyres will have winter or snow tyres with reasonable delivery charges.

http://www.camskill.co.uk/products.php?plid=m11b0s0p0

studded tyres are for compacted snow and long term ice only, they're illegal afaik in ireland anyway. snow/ice tyres, with a set of snowchains in the boot for worst case scenarios would see you well covered I'd imagine. anything beyond that and you may as well get a snowmobile

101sean

I think you'll finded studded tyres are illegal here.

On the tyre front, my sister had some new tyres on her car recently and got some Firestones with a softer compound and more grooves/sipes, while not a winter tyre they are better than the usual motorway biased semi slick tyre. This was from a small country tyre place that can beat all the main chains on price.

CJhaughey

Studded tyres are not illegal here.
There was a guy working for the NCT who made an inquiry about them as they were fitted to a car and the upshot was they are legal according the DOT.

Deer Hunter DL

i put a set of remould snow tyres on my car for the snow they only cost 25 euro each fitted , no studs in them just normal snow tyres they are great i can go almost everywhere my landrover can go in the snow , the only thing stopped the car was the snow up the the front bumper