Retention of text messages after deletion?

DrumSteve

*not too sure if this is the right place for this so mods feel free to move it*

http://www.newstalk.ie/news/news-headlines/lillis-murder-trial-hears-of-lovers-texts/

The murder trial of Eamonn Lillis has heard he received 4 texts from his lover Jean Tracey’s phone on the day of his wife’s death.

The 52 year old denies killing the mother of one who was found lying in a pool of blood on patio decking at their home on Windgate Road on December 15th 2008.

It’s clear from phone messages read out in court that Eamonn Lillis planned to set up a meeting with his lover on the day Celine Cawley died.

At 11:01 on the eve of her death, he received a text from the then 31 year old masseuse Jean Tracey with the words ‘Well as usual I have to play it by ear, but will contact you, night my angel, love you infinitely…sleep well’.

Call records show there were responses from his phone but these are permanently deleted.

However, a message earlier that day from his mobile has the words…’I really miss you baby, call or text ASAP, I really love you x’

The following morning – the 15th – Jean Tracey texted Eamonn Lillis four times but there was no reply.

A day later she left a phone message to say that she didn’t want him to think she was abandoning him, but she believed they should stop all contact until this calmed down…for both their sakes.

Was listening to this on newstalk this morning and they said something along the lines of "using special Garda technology they recovered deleted messages straight from the handset".

Surely this can't be right? I know they can implement some of this on computers however would this not be in breach of civil liberties i.e. if i delete something it should be gone and a digital record should not be kept on it? If its going like this then whats the point in ever deleting anything? And as the court report says they were permanently deleted... surely this is a mistake since they were recovered?

RoboClam

Well it appears to be possible:

http://www.squidoo.com/recoverdeletedtextmessages

When you delete something off your phone or Sim card it doesn't permanently get erased, what really happens is that the space that was occupied by your deleted file is now freed-up and listed as new re-usable space. However until that space is overwritten by new data, in your case new messages, contact numbers etc. your old messages are still there and can be easily retrieved.

The same principles apply for your mobile phones on board memory, USB card, memory card, or any other storage card you use to store your phone data.

And on the question of civil liberties, well the guy is on trial for murder. The gardai could not do this without court approval. If the information they retrieve can help discover the truth, then I don't see a problem.

Run_to_da_hills

All text messages must be stored under the EU Data Retention Directive for up to two years by a service provider. I believe some countries already complied to this even before this came out. In effect they have a record of every text message, location to within 15 feet and time to the second where each text message was made.

In this case one can see the benefits of retaining such data but other than that I could see it as an invasion of privacy. There is also the fear off this stuff going live or getting into the wronhg hands. Pen drives and laptops still seem to have a habit of going missing.

At present the authorities must seek a court order. So if you are sending texts be careful what you write. :eek:

humanji

As Roboclam says, when you delete something off a computer/phone, it remains there until that area of the harddisk is written over again. Computers have been like that since harddisks first came to use. So if the info is still on a computer and the police get a warrant to search that computer, then they can access it and use it in court.

As for Data Retention by service providers, they can only keep the details of who, when and where it was sent and who, when and where it was recieved. They can't keep the contents of the texts or emails and even if they could, they're not admissable as evidence in court.

DrumSteve

humanji wrote: »

As Roboclam says, when you delete something off a computer/phone, it remains there until that area of the harddisk is written over again. Computers have been like that since harddisks first came to use. So if the info is still on a computer and the police get a warrant to search that computer, then they can access it and use it in court.

As for Data Retention by service providers, they can only keep the details of who, when and where it was sent and who, when and where it was recieved. They can't keep the contents of the texts or emails and even if they could, they're not admissable as evidence in court.

thats what i was thinkin except there read out the contents in court of the messages.

Run_to_da_hills

humanji wrote: »

As Roboclam says, when you delete something off a computer/phone, it remains there until that area of the harddisk is written over again. Computers have been like that since harddisks first came to use. So if the info is still on a computer and the police get a warrant to search that computer, then they can access it and use it in court..

Thats true, but in the case of Emails the service providers will retain all records. I learned this a few years ago when my service provider was able to retrieve everything I accidentally deleted.

humanji wrote: »

As for Data Retention by service providers, they can only keep the details of who, when and where it was sent and who, when and where it was received. They can't keep the contents of the texts or emails and even if they could, they're not admissible as evidence in court.

If this was the case why were the contents of Eamon Lillis text messages read out in court if they were not binding?

humanji

The article says that her texts to him were there and a couple from him to her, but others were permanently deleted. The texts they got, thye got from the phone, not from the service provider.

Thats true, but in the case of Emails the service providers will retain all records. I learned this a few years ago when my service provider was able to retrieve everything I accidentally deleted.

Well, according to the EU Data Retention Directive, they shouldn't of been able to do that.

Run_to_da_hills

humanji wrote: »

The article says that her texts to him were there and a couple from him to her, but others were permanently deleted. The texts they got, they got from the phone, not from the service provider.

I heard of a harassment case where the Gardai had a list of text messages going back well over a year on the accused when he was being interviewed. I would advise anyone who writes a text message to take them as binding, you still get idiots using them to threaten people even from "unanimous" pay as you go phones..

thecommander

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

I learned this a few years ago when my service provider was able to retrieve everything I accidentally deleted

Your ISP restored your emails? Or the company who supplied your mail server?

humanji

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

I heard of a harassment case where the Gardai had a list of text messages going back well over a year on the accused when he was being interviewed. I would advise anyone who writes a text message to take them as binding, you still get idiots using them to threaten people even from "unanimous" pay as you go phones..

Ah in fairness, you should always be wary of anything you put on line. There's countless stories from the guy who Twittered a joke about bombing an airport, to the guy whos boss found out he was skiving off work aith a hungover because of his Facebook status. Even stuff written here can come back to bite you on the ass. That's why I organise my crimes by carrier pigeon.

Dinner

DrumSteve wrote: »

And as the court report says they were permanently deleted... surely this is a mistake since they were recovered?

From reading that article, nothing was recovered. The text message that he received was read out in court. Call records from the ISP show that he responded to the text message, but those responses are permanently deleted and, therefore, weren't read out in court.

Undergod

humanji wrote: »

Ah in fairness, you should always be wary of anything you put on line. There's countless stories from the guy who Twittered a joke about bombing an airport, to the guy whos boss found out he was skiving off work aith a hungover because of his Facebook status. Even stuff written here can come back to bite you on the ass. That's why I organise my crimes by carrier pigeon.

The perfect compromise.

Black Uhlan

In the news this week the FBI illegaly collecting phone records.

1.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/01/19/AR2010011900003.html

2.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/01/18/AR2010011803982.html

I really hate America for its freedom.

spoonface

Dinner wrote: »

From reading that article, nothing was recovered. The text message that he received was read out in court. Call records from the ISP show that he responded to the text message, but those responses are permanently deleted and, therefore, weren't read out in court.

I was actually there in court and can confirm this. The Garda said he used a software & hardware solution called Xray to get SMS & contact info from the handsets & sims recovered, including some that had been deleted from the phone but could be retrieved as the bytes could still be found on the phone/sim despite being marked deleted. In addition to that, they had Called Detail Records got from the operators (i.e. time, duration & numbers only, not txt content). Most of what they had was the CDR's and very few actual message contents. Yes, none of the message contents he sent were recovered, only the ones JT sent to him. In court I could see the prosecution had 2 big folders, one marked 'mobile device records' and one marked 'call detail records' (approximately). There were about 4 mobile numbers involved I think.

spoonface

DrumSteve wrote: »

Surely this can't be right? I know they can implement some of this on computers however would this not be in breach of civil liberties i.e. if i delete something it should be gone and a digital record should not be kept on it?

Which civil liberties prevent the Gardai from investigating a crime after it takes place that would prevent them from say trying the see from an impression on a pad of paper what was written on the page above it, if that's relevant? Just like the pad of paper, the phones and sims are evidence and so if they can help solve the crime & secure conviction, then these avenues will & should be pursued surely?

GerardKeating

DrumSteve wrote: »

Surely this can't be right? I know they can implement some of this on computers however would this not be in breach of civil liberties i.e. if i delete something it should be gone and a digital record should not be kept on it? If its going like this then whats the point in ever deleting anything? And as the court report says they were permanently deleted... surely this is a mistake since they were recovered?

If it was the case that the phone was designed to do this yes, but was not. The recovery software exploits a feature of how phones/computers work.

There is no "civil right" to well designed software...