unbalanced canter?

workaholic2

Hi all, looking for some advice

My very green mare is recently broken. She's fine in trot and walk, while riding and lunging, but while lunging any time i ask her to canter she gets all hot and starts bucking (she has a fairly mean buck!). She calms down after a circle or two but always does this, on both reins! I am waiting for surgery on my knee, and don't want her doing this while I'm riding, in case I come off her, so I'm looking for some advice on how to get her more balanced going into canter and to keep her balanced while cantering (lunging and riding).
I am going to get her back checked to rule out the possibility of that being the problem. Have had all her tack professionally sized and fitted so I know it's not that. Happens in the indoor and outdoor arena so it's not the surroundings either. She doesnt do it any other time, even when jumping (small crosspoles in trot). So if anyone has had any similar experiences with their horses, and can give me any help, it would be greatly appreciated!!

fits

I wouldnt ask her to canter on the lunge then for the time being. It might be an idea to start cantering her out hacking or canter large in the arena, on the long sides. Going into a light seat could help her too (before the transition even).

Meanwhile build up her suppleness on the lunge and under saddle with lots of changes of direction and transitions in walk and trot. But dont ask for too much with canter under saddle yet. Build up to circling slowly.

fits

oh and make sure her saddle isnt hurting her too.

workaholic2

Thanks Fits

That's what I have been doing up until now. Once she is in an even balanced trot I ask for canter, but she'll buck for nearly a full circle, then settle down, and I only ask her for 2 or 3 more complete circles in canter (without the bucking), and then change the rein, and repeat. Little and often right?!

Have been doing polework aswell, use 3 for walk, 3 for trot and placing poles while jumping (in trot) . Jumps are nothing major though, they wouldnt even be 40cms.

That's all I started doing after breaking her. Lots, and I mean lots of transitions from walk to halt, halt to walk and walk to trot on the lunge. She pretty much knows exactly what to do in those three transitions, usually walks, halts and trots just by listening to my voice commands while riding aswell, which really helps as she's quite strong! It's just canter we're having a problem with!

Jemmy

Does she calm down eventually?

Have you considered getting her back checked? I know it might seem like a bit much but I had a pony few years back that did the same and it turned out she had several bones out along her back. Nothing major but in canter & jumping it was causing her to be uncomfortable.

workaholic2

Hi Jemmy ,

I will be getting her back checked, just getting her vacc's sorted first. Chiro and dentist getting done soon to rule out any problems in those areas.

yeh she does calm down eventually, but its just the transition from trot to canter that gets her hot and bothered

I wouldnt normally mind but she has a vicious buck in her, but the only time she'll do it is going into canter! then she calms down, and is usually fine but I dont want her to have a negative association with going into canter because shes so young, I want her to move up transitions with confidence and I'm not too sure if shes just unbalanced, or if shes just playing up or maybe she just doesnt want to?!

Jemmy

workaholic2 wrote: »

Hi Jemmy ,

I will be getting her back checked, just getting her vacc's sorted first. Chiro and dentist getting done soon to rule out any problems in those areas.

yeh she does calm down eventually, but its just the transition from trot to canter that gets her hot and bothered

I wouldnt normally mind but she has a vicious buck in her, but the only time she'll do it is going into canter! then she calms down, and is usually fine but I dont want her to have a negative association with going into canter because shes so young, I want her to move up transitions with confidence and I'm not too sure if shes just unbalanced, or if shes just playing up or maybe she just doesnt want to?!

Well if it's just in the transition it could be that her back is out and the rhythm change give her a quick uncomfortable pain then she's fine after. Then again there may be no reason at all and she just likes giving a buck! I know I wouldn't mind the odd buck myself but everytime you change up it gets a bit tiring after awhile! lol But if it's vicious too you don't need that and it's not a habit you want her to hold onto.

If it was me I'd def be getting her back checked purely because it's constant in the canter transition, if she was getting bored, stopped and it was only the odd buck I'd put it down to boredom/ messing/ excitement. I remember the horse chiropractor (not sure if they have a special title!) anyway he told my dad that day that alot of horses have something out in their backs, whether it's something small or large, but it is never detected or checked and people think it is just bad behaviour.

Hope you get it sorted one way or anther though.

workaholic2

Thanks Jemmy

Yeh thats it, I want to break the habit of her doing it, and I want her to enjoy what she does aswell, so defo gona get the chiro out and have her back checked. Hopefully it gets sorted then

If its not her back, then I'm gona have to come back for some more advice

convert

Have you tried standing up in your saddle (ie a jockey position) and asking for canter in that position? Sometimes if a horse's back is cold and if you sit in the saddle when asking for canter, they might react by bucking.

MDFM

Have you tried loose schooling her with or without her tack on, she how she reacts? I have a horse that bucks regularly on the transition to canter - more so if he's fresh - but as he's older and has had muscular problems, its often a combination of freshness and him trying to stretch himself! He'll do it more so on the right rein and it can be quite a severe buck if you're not expecting it..and often up until he does buck, all his other transitions are fairly crap to say the least! when he gets like this i usually get down, roll up the stirrups and reins and let him off to do his own thing around the arena and let off steam/buck and get it out of him system. this usually only last few mins and after that he'll stand for me to get up on him and he'll work away for me no problem!
see whats shes like on the loose, u might she a difference there.

doctor evil

If your going to get her back checked use a chartered equine physio, not a random back person (that includes chiros I'm afraid!)

Esroh

I think it maybe just a very basic problem. Your mare is green and as you hae been working her thru transitions and getting her back working she may have realised that the canter transition is an opportunity to avoid using her back muscles and her natural reaction is to let the power out the back by bucking and relieving and stretching her muscles. Especially as she relaxes after a circle or 2.
You will probably find that if you were on her using your legs to keep her going forward that she may not react as much.
You may have been lucky to have got yourself a smart mare so just remember she is still young. As the saying goes
' You tell a Horse but ask a Mare and if she agrees you will not get better'

shanagarry

What's her demeanour when she is bucking? Does she look happy and full of beans, or are her ears back, is she uncomfortable looking etc. Is she the type of mare that bucks a lot out in the field? Obviously get the medical things ruled out, but it might be just pure freshness and she is actually bucking with enjoyment! My old pony is 21 and you still need to let her blow off steam (and her crazy bucks) on the lunge before riding her if she is fresh or else I feel like I am riding a ticking time bomb.

If you think that is the case, I would deal with it by bringing her back to trot as quick as you can if she bucks. She needs to learn that canter isn't play time and that she needs to stay calm and under control. Do you use side reins when you lunge? They will help stop her getting her head down and make it harder for her to buck. If you're not used to using them, get someone experienced to help you set the length initially, it's important that they're not too tight.

When you're riding, concentrate on keeping a good hold of her (while again not restricting her forward movement too much) so she can't get her head down to buck.

And then you get the ones that you can spend 16 years trying to fix and you finally have to accept that she's never going to change and that the freshness and love of being ridden makes her the super pony she is in other ways

workaholic2

Hi guys thanks for all your tips

While lunging she'll calm down after a few mins in canter, but i was riding her today and we were cantering (just for a few strides) on the left rein, she went like a dream, didn't pull, didn't buck and made the transition back to trot brilliantly. She's actually a really comfy ride

But then..I changed the rein..asked her to canter..and then all hell broke loose!!! she was bucking like a bronco, ears back, head between her legs and she took off..i would have had better chance of stopping a steam train! she flat out galloped around the arena and just keep going, i couldn't stop her. so i thought the best thing 2 do was to get myself off her before she threw me off! i didn't want her hurting herself, as she nearly went into the walls a good few times, i could just about steer her away from them. Soon as i came off she stopped, but she was freaked out badly. she was shivering and shaking and to be honest i think she was trying to run away from the pain. definitely think its her back now, as she has never ever done this before, even being so green she has never acted like this while riding. there wasn't a hope in hell i would have stopped her. When she bucks from being fresh she usually dances around a bit and you can see that she enjoys it. but this was totally different, I could tell there was something wrong wit her

convert

Just another thing that has come to mind - is the girth pinching her? Or if you have a martingale could it be pinching her belly either?

shanagarry

Hi Workaholic

Just checking in to see if you have made any progress with your mare? It's strange if it is some pain thing that it only affects her in canter? I've been wracking my brains, but I can't think of anything I've come across. The only thing would maybe be a wolf tooth?

And Converts suggestion of the girth is worth checking out. I had a mare who had very wrinkly skin at her girth so you always had to pull her front leg forward after tacking up to get the creases out or it would pinch and rub her.

workaholic2

Hiya guys,

As of from Saturday I have been asked to leave the yard due to my horse's "boldness" so I'm afraid not much progress was made.

The day after she took off while riding, I lunged her with no tack on, just a lunge cavesson. There were no bucks, no taking off, just smooth transitions. Was amazed at the difference. I don't know if it was because she got such a fright at what happened the previous day and learned that she had to do it correctly in order to be praised, or if it was because she had no tack on.

I don't use a martingale, so it's not that, but I had the saddle professionally fitted, so I'm thinking it could be the girth pinching. Although why it only affects her in canter, I don't know

I'm going to move her to another yard, and get everything checked..back, teeth, tack etc, and invest in some proper schooling for her, it could just be that she's still unbalanced in canter, and may need to be let off to mature for a few months..am considering quite a few different options, as the situation is like none I've ever been in! Especially since she in fine in trot, and even better when jumping from trot, she loves it! I know she was badly broken and left in a field for a year before I got her, that's why I started from scratch. Her groundwork is impeccable, and her lunging is perfect, and usually while riding I'll use the voice commands before using legs/asking to halt. (Which she has perfected aswell, it's just the canter thats causing the problems!!:()

convert

That's awful that you've been asked to leave the yard. Did they not offer any help or advice to you? Or even offer to help you with her? Did they even give you a warning that they might have to ask you to leave if she didn't start to behave?

Apart from the girth, I don't know what else to suggest. Does she canter on the lunge without bucking?

workaholic2

Funny thing is that it states on their (my yard's) website, schooling and tuition available, but the yard owner said and I quote "I dont have time for you or your horse". No help was offered, and to be honest, I'm pretty upset at the whole situation. The advice given to me was to "leave her in a field til summer then get her professionally schooled, and dont waste money on getting back/teeth checked"!! :mad:

The yard owner had said that my horse was "running around the field" and one of the days (after not being able to get out for 2 weeks because of the ice convering the yard) she wouldnt let anyone catch her. Which is pretty usual in a young horse thats been cooped up for 2 weeks!!! She is usually 100% to catch, one of the girls that works at the yard with me said that she's always the first horse to walk over to you when bringing them in from the field!!! So I don't know what her problem was, but I've got 2 weeks to figure out what the hell (excuse the language) I'm supposed to do now!!!

I did lunge her the other day without tack, she cantered both reins without bucking. Usually if she's fully tacked she would buck and try take off, then she'd settle, but when riding she just runs "blind" when asking for canter, nothing could stop her! I'm looking into other yards that could offer some help, but moneys tight now at the moment, as I had to pay a month's livery up front when I moved to my current yard.. and although I don't want to sell her, I'm afraid that I'm not going to be able to provide the right training for her, unless I find someone to help. I am quite experienced with young horses, but I've never had a problem with blind bolting before!

convert

workaholic2 wrote: »

Funny thing is that it states on their (my yard's) website, schooling and tuition available, but the yard owner said and I quote "I dont have time for you or your horse". No help was offered, and to be honest, I'm pretty upset at the whole situation. The advice given to me was to "leave her in a field til summer then get her professionally schooled, and dont waste money on getting back/teeth checked"!! :mad:

That's awful. I mean this in the best possible way, maybe you're better off moving yard. If they aren't willing to help or advise you with your mare, then maybe it's a blessing in disguise and the next yard you go to will be much more helpful and accommodating. Advising you to leave your horse out in a field for a few months isn't the best idea. It might work, but equally it may be the case that it would solve nothing and that you'd be back to square one again in a few months time when you take her in.

I did lunge her the other day without tack, she cantered both reins without bucking. Usually if she's fully tacked she would buck and try take off, then she'd settle, but when riding she just runs "blind" when asking for canter, nothing could stop her! I'm looking into other yards that could offer some help, but moneys tight now at the moment, as I had to pay a month's livery up front when I moved to my current yard.. and although I don't want to sell her, I'm afraid that I'm not going to be able to provide the right training for her, unless I find someone to help. I am quite experienced with young horses, but I've never had a problem with blind bolting before!

My youngster will buck when I put the tack on her and lunge her, but that's really only when she's very fresh or is very well of herself. She will just canter around in a circle, bucking on every stride. But she stops after a few minutes. I put it down to her getting it out of her system and just having fun. Similarly, she might buck once or twice when I start cantering her mounted if she hasn't been ridden for a while, but she will stop once I chastise her.

Do you mind me asking what type of girth and saddlepad you're using?

workaholic2

Using a normal quilted saddle cloth, but I'm thinking now it might be pressing on her withers, so I might invest in a riser to help take the pressure off her back..have a neoprene girth, maybe I need a girth sleeve though, do you think that might help?

She doesnt really buck when fresh, except out in the field. I have ridden her when shes fresh (walk and trot and jump small crosspoles) and she gets a bit strong, but I would do a few half-halts and lots of transitions and circles and then she'd calm down. When she took off the other day, I tried everything, circling her (ended up almost parallel to the ground), pulling and then releasing, talking to her (well, trying to talk while flat out galloping and bucking), but she just wouldn't listen. She has never, ever, ever done anything like this before! She has never even attempted to buck while I'm riding, let alone buck while galloping!

I definitely don't want to put her back out to grass, being left in a field unhandled for a year was her downfall in the first place before i bought her. I don't want to un-do all of the work I've done with her so far! She's come along so nicely, I want her to keep progressing! But whatever is wrong/hurting her, back/teeth/tack etc, I want to sort it now, not in a few months! :mad:

Am thinking you might be right about moving yards, I'm going to try and go back to a yard I was at years and years ago with the last horse I broke myself...if they could offer some sort of help, I'd be sorted Only problem is coming up with another month's livery up front...

convert

A neoprene girth should be ok. I assume there's no rubbery-foam on the side closest to the horse - that it's the same material on the inside and outside of the girth. Not sure if the girth cover would help any, but if you knew someone who had one and was willing to loan it to you to see if it had any impact, then try it. But I wouldn't go buying an expensive new one just as a trial.

Not sure about the saddle pad. It should be ok, though I found faux sheepskin ones to be better than quilted polyester/cotton. But that's just me.

One other thing that came into my head: are there any loose threads or pieces of hay that are getting caught on the saddlepad and are tickling your mare under the saddle?

Another thing: do you go up and see your mare every day? And do you ride each day? The only reason I ask is whether or not you think somebody else has been riding your mare and something happened with the other rider, and that resulted in her taking flight if you do approach a similar situation in which something happend.

shanagarry

Convert was quite polite, I'm less so Get out of that yard as quick as you can and go somewhere decent. There is no way I would trust anyone who says getting a horse's back and teeth checked is a waste of money to be around my horse. And if bucking gets you kicked out of a yard I'd never have lasted anywhere! Two of mine are demons when fresh.

You mentioned that she was broken badly - do you think this could have extended to being abused? As in maybe getting beaten if she bucked? The reason I ask is that when we got my mare we had awful problems trying to get her to strike off correctly on the right lead. This was something that had obviously been going on when she was being broken as well and it became obvious that she had the crap beaten out of her for it. With us, when she missed a strike off on the lunge she would stop dead and pull back and I have never seen a horse so afraid, she would cower, shake, sweat, flash the whites of her eyes, you name it. That was her reaction as she wasn't the type of horse to ever buck (I remember her bucking once in the 10 odd years I rode her), but maybe it's possible that something similar happened to your mare and her way of dealing with it is to bolt from it? With my mare, canter on the right was the only trigger - she was as good as gold and very calm for everything else. Just a notion to think about...

You said she was fine on just the cavesson, so I'd try and maybe add bits of equipment one at a time to see how she reacts - maybe go from the cavesson to lunging off the bit, to lunging with just a roller on, to lunging with the saddle on, just to see if you can maybe isolate a trigger?

I'd check for the wolf tooth yourself too while you wait for the full check.

What part of the country are you based in?

workaholic2

Hi Convert, I would always check under the saddle cloth for any loose but of hay etc before I put it on, there's nothing there I can see that would be irritating her! I see her every day except Tuesday(full day in work and then college straight after). Nobody else is riding her as far as I'm aware! When I first got her, I couldn't even get a bridle/saddle/lunging whip near her, she would just shake all over and look scared sh*tless..

I spent 3-4 hours with her every day and now she's not afraid of the whip, and just stands there while I tack her up, so I think she may have been broken using force! She certainly wasn't schooled properly anyway. She also couldn't lift her feet to be picked out or shod, now she lifts her front feet perfect, but still has problems with her back feet, another sign of mishandling before I bought her I'm guessing. She also didn't have a clue how to be lead properly. there are so many things she could't/wouldn't/didn't know how to do when I got her, so I have been progressing with her really slowly, trying to build trust. You would swear she was a 2 year old sometimes, but I know it's not her fault, she just doesn't know any better.

The yard owner has now said that she doesn't want my mare out at all now, she wants her kept in the stable (her reason being she's in season and she's runnning around in the field?!?). Am gettin out ASAP, am in the middle of sorting another yard, with someone that's willing to help, and has said she can recommend a good chiro and dentist, and can help with schooling her My mare did have a problem with striking off on the correct lead, but we fixed that problem, while lunging, I would always ask on a corner, and then bring her back to trot if she took an incorrect lead, she strikes off perfect every time now! We've come a long way

Funny thing is I've always called her "heifer" (in a loving way ) she really loves her food, but the last week or so, I've come up and her hay (that she gets at 4pm) would still be there at 8pm. usually she would have it gone in an hour or so..I defo think there's something up now, will check tonight if it is a wolf tooth..thanks Shanagarry!

Am based in Dublin!

shanagarry

Poor thing, hopefully you will get it sorted out soon.

It does sound like she could have some sort of psychological issue from previous ill treatment. As I said, my mare's trigger was that right canter strike off. The problem wasn't the strike off itself per se, if that makes sense, but if she missed it all the horrible memories of being beaten came flooding back and she would freak. The positive to this story is that with lots of time, patience and calm handling, that mare became a dream to work with, probably the easiest horse I have ever had (never fell off her in 10+ years, definitely a record!)

But her struggling to lift her back feet could indicate a lack of balance or stiffness too... Does she just not want to give them, or is she wobbly when you get them up?

Anyway, it sounds like the new yard will be much more beneficial. Get the teeth and back checked as soon as you can and then take it from there if they are all clear.

Pity you're in Dublin, could have suggested someone in Limerick but that's not much good to you!

workaholic2

At the start it definitely was her balance, she would wobble and hop all over the place if you tried asking her to lift a leg! now i make sure that she's standing square before asking..but i still cant pick her back legs up properly, she lifts them for a few seconds and then nearly falls over and has 2 put them back down. Luckily I don't have back shoes on her, so she just gets them trimmed and paired, but even then the farrier has a hard time doing it

Yeh I agree, I think she was treated badly in the past, but alot of things she was previously scared of (she was very spooky), she's ok with now (loud bangs/planes going over head etc). So I have hope that she'll come right, might take a few months, might take years, who knows?! But I know she has it in her to be great, so I'm not giving up just yet! :D

I'll keep you updated when I move, and when I get everything checked out..

And thanks guys, means alot to me having some sound advice

shanagarry

She will come right no bother! It's one thing, she's going great for you now otherwise, so you will figure it out and get it sorted.

Definitely do keep us posted, I'd love to know if you get to the bottom of it.

doctor evil

You can find a chartered equine physio on the site below

http://www.iscp.ie/content/view/437/97/

I'd get another person to check the saddle, make sure the dentist/saddle fitter is a decent one. Lots of cowboys/girls around unfortunately.

workaholic2

Thanks Doctor Evil

Have arranged to move yards on Monday, teeth and tack are getting checked first, then getting the chiro in..

Yard owner sorting chiro/dentist etc for me..finally, someone who is willing to help!! wish i had moved there sooner!

doctor evil

Thats good of the new YO to do that for you. But don't feel obliged to use them because they're the 'yard ones' For the mare I don't use the 'yard dentist' I found one I liked on personal recommendation.

workaholic2

Hi all,

We moved yards yesterday, dentist coming on Thursday! YO checked her teeth, she has 2 wolf teeth coming down, looks very red and sore around them, so that's one problem found..and hopefully will be sorted on Thursday, Chiro still be to organised, but at least now I know getting her teeth checked was worth it

Also looks like saddle wasn't sitting right on her back, going to invest in a riser pad, and if that doesn't help..then I'll prob need a new saddle!

*Funny story*...on the way to our new yard, my old YO got stuck in the jeep, couldn't turn it, and made me and my horse get out...AND WALK THE REST OF THE WAY!!! she wouldn't let her back in the horsebox!!!!!!!! Said she had "to go, and couldn't wait around"??!! :eek: New YO was driving up the road and saw us, she couldn't believe it when I told her what had happened! Specially since my young mare was full in season(tad bit more difficult to handle), hadn't been out on a road before, and it was a fairly busy road! scary but she behaved well anyway thank god, pulled a bit from excitement, but got there safe in the end