IAA Air traffic controller's industrial action Wednesday

JohnK

Heard on the news that further action is likely but they'll make an announcement about it tomorrow. I'm off on holidays tomorrow so I just hope they wait until after 11:50am :eek:

jesus_thats_gre

JohnK wrote: »

Heard on the news that further action is likely but they'll make an announcement about it tomorrow. I'm off on holidays tomorrow so I just hope they wait until after 11:50am :eek:

haha 11:45 here

FlutterinBantam

Any company that operates 24/7/365 will always need overtime to supplement the periods where not much is happening.

I agree that built in major overtime is a non runner and any company that relies on this is as you say , not well run.

G O'Byrne-White head honcho of CityJet was extremely disparaging today on the strike.On Drivetime.

I would agree with him totally.

Steyr

Anybody see the man who should be running Ireland ( MOL ) on 6,1 News? He said sack the lot of them and if it comes to it let the Irish Air Corps take over, as has been mooted/questioned here by myself ( shameless i know ) and then told that they Operate Bal Military Radar by Neon-Circles so im sure they would have experience of Civillian Traffic especially where Baldonnel is situated juggling Mil Traffic around the Civil traffic, and im sure the IAC Military Radar Personnel are just as competent and as professional as their Civillian counterparts.

Also i know realistically its not a long term solution and 99.9% will not happen but it would probably be a good stop gap solution in the short term.

rugbyman

I dont think it likely that anyones voice on here will change things, but i seriously feel that no group should be able to paralyse a country and tens of thousands of people like this.

the current economic crisis will enable actions to be taken in many fields which otherwise would not have been done.

e.g nurses and medics never walk out, garda are bnned:barred from doing so.
any occupation which can cause such misery to thousands clearly needs a different calibre of human being .

the losses to the airlines is only money and may not be that severe, no fuel used, no landing charges paid etc, the absolute mucking up of thousands of peoples travel plans, on ward links, meetings etc is inexcusable

rugbyman

rugbyman

diverdriver wrote: »

I was somewhat in the middle and I feel some of the comments in this thread are harsh. Too harsh in fact. But then I read that blog: http://irishatcfactfile.wordpress.com/

I'm sorry if that was meant to convince me that the controllers were being hard done by. Then it has had the opposite effect. Clearly the IAA are playing hardball and seriously taking the p. But I'm distinctly unimpressed with the comments in the blog. It's a bit of an own goal.

He comments 'Why is the IAA doing this' Well, my friend if you don't know by now then I suggest you start reading the newspapers and watching the news.

I'm disappointed to be honest. I was fully prepared to take the side of the ATC. But they've miscalculated badly.

no hassle intended ,but could you give any reasons for your earlier being ready to support the stoppage?

regards Rugbyman

scudzilla

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/22/20100120/tts-uk-ireland-strike-ca02f96.html

"They are among the best-paid public servants in the country... Work 182 days a year, have 137 rest days, and 36 days holidays," Kavanagh said, adding the top 10 percent earned between 170,000 euros (147,145 pounds) and 230,000 euros last year.

Are they for real?? Sack th elot of the strikers, i'll do the job for 130k

donkey balls

scudzilla wrote: »

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/22/20100120/tts-uk-ireland-strike-ca02f96.html

"They are among the best-paid public servants in the country... Work 182 days a year, have 137 rest days, and 36 days holidays," Kavanagh said, adding the top 10 percent earned between 170,000 euros (147,145 pounds) and 230,000 euros last year.

Are they for real?? Sack th elot of the strikers, i'll do the job for 130k

the hours the ATCO do would be best international practise airline pilots fly 900hrs a year max some pilots fly less,the last thing you need is an ATC/Pilot tired&fatiqued those two occupations are not the only ones were your only allowed to work certain hours and here is a link for the IAA CEO salary and brother to an ex transport minister.
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/finance/2009/0509/1224246190751.html

Snickers Man

yhwh wrote: »

Found this link on pprune. Some might find it interesting,

http://irishatcfactfile.wordpress.com/

Whoa. It's clear from the post by one of the irate ATCOs that they DO earn well over 100k a year. And they're demanding an increase on that for what? To use a new computer??

UNDERWORKED, OVERPAID and BENEATH CONTEMPT!!!!

EchoIndia

scudzilla wrote: »

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/22/20100120/tts-uk-ireland-strike-ca02f96.html

"They are among the best-paid public servants in the country... Work 182 days a year, have 137 rest days, and 36 days holidays," Kavanagh said, adding the top 10 percent earned between 170,000 euros (147,145 pounds) and 230,000 euros last year.

Are they for real?? Sack the lot of the strikers, i'll do the job for 130k

I have no connection with anyone in ATC, but anyone who thinks that you could realistically sack the country's air traffic controllers and just carry on as before is living in fantasy land. (That well-known liberal, George Hook, was also peddling this line on his programme this evening.)

The IAA website shows that there are 160 controllers at Shannon (this would include the high-level en route service), 97 at Dublin and 21 at Cork. Like it or not, these staff undergo rigorous training for their jobs and have to obtain ratings for specific roles (tower, approach, radar etc.) before being allowed to perform them. They cannot be replaced overnight or even in the short-to-medium term, which is what gives them the very muscle they exercised today. The objective has to be to ensure the continuation of the present level of service with the staff who are already trained to do the job. I have little doubt that, when reason prevails, the State's industrial relations machinery will deliver a solution that enables this to happen.

probe

EchoIndia wrote: »

I have no connection with anyone in ATC, but anyone who thinks that you could realistically sack the country's air traffic controllers and just carry on as before is living in fantasy land. (That well-known liberal, George Hook, was also peddling this line on his programme this evening.)

The IAA website shows that there are 160 controllers at Shannon (this would include the high-level en route service), 97 at Dublin and 21 at Cork. Like it or not, these staff undergo rigorous training for their jobs and have to obtain ratings for specific roles (tower, approach, radar etc.) before being allowed to perform them. They cannot be replaced overnight or even in the short-to-medium term, which is what gives them the very muscle they exercised today. The objective has to be to ensure the continuation of the present level of service with the staff who are already trained to do the job. I have little doubt that, when reason prevails, the State's industrial relations machinery will deliver a solution that enables this to happen.

Nonsense. It is a profitable business. Put the operation of ATC out to tender with a condition that existing IAA ATC staff can't be employed. Let the new operator recruit trained ATC staff internationally - they could also do some of the work from their existing base located in another country. Get Thales to train up the existing military ATC people to handle the system during the hiatus period.

These IAA ATC blackmailers need to be shown the door.

gerire

probe wrote: »

Nonsense. It is a profitable business. Put the operation of ATC out to tender with a condition that existing IAA ATC staff can't be employed. Let the new operator recruit trained ATC staff internationally - they could also do some of the work from their existing base located in another country. Get Thales to train up the existing military ATC people to handle the system during the hiatus period.

These IAA ATC blackmailers need to be shown the door.

Well thats a fantastic way to promote growth in the country, Add 300+ more to the live register and bring in foreigners to do our work thus leaving a further 300 on the register get a grip;

I applied for the ATC when it 1st came up 2.5 years ago since then I have joined another section of the public service where I am daily in the front line dealing with scumbags, fatal road traffic collisions, domestic rows etc, If I had have gotten ATC I would have been training on more than I currently receive on a weekly basis and since Jan of last year the weekly take home has dropped by 20% or over 100 a week, same bills still there and have to be paid.

To see the ATC out striking when everyone else in the public sector makes massive personal contributions to pensions, and then get slated in the media for not contributing enough to boot, and these lads making none and asking for a 6% pay increase is laughable. I don't know how they think they will get any public support at all, or maybe they just don't care or want public support, as was seen yesterday they can just hold the country to ransom at the drop of a hat, screw you and your holidays I want this and if I don't get it you can stay in Ireland or whatever country you were in.

I can see the side of the argument that if a colleague is suspended that there would be anger, but to come on the air saying it is not a pay issue is a load of billix. They will get what they want and soon too. If govt turn around and pass a motion that they must make these contributions they will just walk out again.

From my point of view all I can say is I envy their position, In the current climate when looking at me measly payslip every week now for them to be able to negotiate/put a gun to someones head is a nice power to have our representative body are not even allowed to negotiate anything as was seen back in December, our 2 representative bodies were sitting outside the room when all the other unions were having the meetings

Jammyc

I just think that no matter what side of the argument comments like this do nothing to help the situation and are purely ****-stirring to get some attention.

Ryanair Website wrote:

Ryanair, Ireland’s largest airline, today (19th Jan) called on the Dept of Transport to ensure that Ireland’s airports are kept open tomorrow, even if the overpaid, underworked semi-state employees of the IAA monopoly decide to go on strike at a time when traffic to/from Ireland is collapsing.

Its a rash and stupid thing to do to cast all ATCO's in this light. Taxi drivers earn quite a bit as far as I'm aware, but I didnt see any of this thrash being spouted about them when they striked.

donkey balls

Jammyc wrote: »

I just think that no matter what side of the argument comments like this do nothing to help the situation and are purely ****-stirring to get some attention.



Its a rash and stupid thing to do to cast all ATCO's in this light. Taxi drivers earn quite a bit as far as I'm aware, but I didnt see any of this thrash being spouted about them when they striked.

what to you expect from FR sure MOL was on six one news complaining about the ATCO calling them public servants(they work for a profitable semi state).
the likes of him dont care bottom line for these guys is profit at the expence of there employees&travelling public.
nothing was said about the CEO of the IAA and his salary&bonus
http://redirectingat.com/?id=42X487496&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.irishtimes.com%2Fnewspaper%2F...246190751.html
Mr Brennan said he would be willing to pay the pension contribution himself. The authority made a contribution of €96,000 on behalf of Mr Brennan last year as part of a total remuneration of €412,000.
This compared with total pay in 2007 of €350,000. Mr Brennan's basic pay rose last year by 22 per cent to €253,000.
Mr Brennan recently agreed to take a 10 per cent cut in his basic pay. He told The Irish Times that his bonus this year would be about one-third less than the €63,000 he earned last year.
i didnt see the above article been bandied about in the media to me it was all spin by the IAA

electric69

Im just wondering if anyone is actually listening to the non stop garbage that Ryanair are comin out with? On thursday i was listening to their offical spokesperson on Today FM complaining how passenger numbers have been down 13% and 10% in the the last 2 years at dublin airport(thats 23% downturn folks!).
Then, the man who some people think should be running the country, came on the six one news and said that the amount of air travel was down 25%.now i could be wrong, but since when does a downturn in passenger numbers have a direct impact on air traffic?if every flight has 7 empty seats compared to 3 the previous year, do people really think that they are going to cancel the flight and cut down on frequency of flights just because of a few less pax?Sensationalism is a word that some people need to get their heads around...but then again...we are dealing with people who honestly think he should be running the country so maybe im just banging my head against the wall. Watch less tv and get factsbefore you start quoting someone.

donkey balls

electric69 wrote: »

Im just wondering if anyone is actually listening to the non stop garbage that Ryanair are comin out with? On thursday i was listening to their offical spokesperson on Today FM complaining how passenger numbers have been down 13% and 10% in the the last 2 years at dublin airport(thats 23% downturn folks!).
Then, the man who some people think should be running the country, came on the six one news and said that the amount of air travel was down 25%.now i could be wrong, but since when does a downturn in passenger numbers have a direct impact on air traffic?if every flight has 7 empty seats compared to 3 the previous year, do people really think that they are going to cancel the flight and cut down on frequency of flights just because of a few less pax?Sensationalism is a word that some people need to get their heads around...but then again...we are dealing with people who honestly think he should be running the country so maybe im just banging my head against the wall. Watch less tv and get factsbefore you start quoting someone.

+1 and what people forget/dont know is SNN ATC deal with traffic going to&from the US from europe

Su Campu

Having taken up an unhealthy obsession interest in Radarvirtuel.com over the last week or so, I can't help noticing that even at the busiest times for transatlantic traffic (mornings and afternoons), the number of aircraft actually in the EISN airspace at any one time is pretty low (maybe 5 or 6), so the extra workload involved in manual spacing (if that's their gripe?) is pretty tame. Isn't that why ATCOs are hand-picked and put through a rigorous training program, to give spacing to aircraft? Or is it supposed to be a fully automated system now, and that's why they're complaining, that they now have mental math to do. Ridiculous I know, but looking at it, it seems I could do it myself!

Here's the AIC describing the new system

http://www.iaa.ie/safe_reg/iaip/Published%20Files/Circ%20Files/2009/EI_AIC_2009_11_en.pdf

EchoIndia

Su Campu wrote: »

Having taken up an unhealthy obsession interest in Radarvirtuel.com over the last week or so, I can't help noticing that even at the busiest times for transatlantic traffic (mornings and afternoons), the number of aircraft actually in the EISN airspace at any one time is pretty low (maybe 5 or 6), so the extra workload involved in manual spacing (if that's their gripe?) is pretty tame.

Radarvirtuel displays only some aircraft and its coverage is dependent on where the contributors who feed data to it are based. AFAIK the Irish providers of information are in the Dublin area, so coverage to the south and west is going to be further limited to what can be picked up by a Dublin-based receiver. An airband radio would give you a fuller picture of activity levels. I would say the airspace is a lot busier than you suggest, especially at peak times. There is also a lot more north/south traffic, thus crossing the paths of the transatlantic traffic, than was once the case, and these aircraft tend to be climbing or descending as they pass through Irish airspace.

Su Campu

EchoIndia wrote: »

Radarvirtuel displays only some aircraft and its coverage is dependent on where the contributors who feed data to it are based. AFAIK the Irish providers of information are in the Dublin area, so coverage to the south and west is going to be further limited to what can be picked up by a Dublin-based receiver. An airband radio would give you a fuller picture of activity levels. I would say the airspace is a lot busier than you suggest, especially at peak times. There is also a lot more north/south traffic, thus crossing the paths of the transatlantic traffic, than was once the case, and these aircraft tend to be climbing or descending as they pass through Irish airspace.

Actually the Dublin receiver picks up all high-level aircraft as far away as off the west and southwest coasts, so although the airspace extends further than that, practically all of the west and eastbound Mode-S traffic are picked up at some stage. Plus I listen in on LiveATC so I get a better picture. You have to admit, Shannon UTA isn't exactly as crowded as places like southeastern England or New York, so I really don't see what the problem is.

EchoIndia

I don't work in ATC, so I won't claim to be an expert, nor would I try to guess what level of work is involved in respect of any particular flight. I note the image you pick is an evening one, at a time when T/A traffic would be approaching its lightest in any 24-hour period.

Furthermore traffic is not even distributed in time and geographical terms. As you know, the eastbound and westbound flows tend to be concentrated in particular time-bands of the day and also the NAT system tends to lead to multiple flights converging on a relatively small number of Oceanic entry points.

I have definitely seen aircraft (notably of Delta and Continental) overhead which are not visible on Radarvirtuel, so it does not give a complete picture. Also - though they are of course in the minority - very few executive jets and almost no military flights appear on it. Live ATC is linked into someone's scanner so it can only let you hear what is happening on a single high-level frequency at any given moment.

Su Campu

EchoIndia wrote: »

I don't work in ATC, so I won't claim to be an expert, nor would I try to guess what level of work is involved in respect of any particular flight. I note the image you pick is an evening one, at a time when T/A traffic would be approaching its lightest in any 24-hour period.

Furthermore traffic is not even distributed in time and geographical terms. As you know, the eastbound and westbound flows tend to be concentrated in particular time-bands of the day and also the NAT system tends to lead to multiple flights converging on a relatively small number of Oceanic entry points.

I have definitely seen aircraft (notably of Delta and Continental) overhead which are not visible on Radarvirtuel, so it does not give a complete picture. Also - though they are of course in the minority - very few executive jets and almost no military flights appear on it. Live ATC is linked into someone's scanner so it can only let you hear what is happening on a single high-level frequency at any given moment.

I take what you're saying, you're right that it doesn't show all aircraft, but I have attached a screenshot from last Friday afternoon, not quite the busiest time of the day, but still comparing the difference in traffic between Shannon and London sectors. No comparison.

EchoIndia

Su Campu wrote: »

I take what you're saying, you're right that it doesn't show all aircraft, but I have attached a screenshot from last Friday afternoon, not quite the busiest time of the day, but still comparing the difference in traffic between Shannon and London sectors. No comparison.

You are right, there is no comparison. The London TMA is one of the busiest pieces of airspace in the world, and many (most?) of the flights that appear on screen there are arriving or departing from the many airports in that region. London ATC is organised into a multiplicity of sectors and some of these are very busy indeed. The individual airports mostly have their own approach service too. Unless you compare the workload of individual controllers and the number and nature of the flights being handled, how can you conclude that the average Irish controller is underworked? I can't make this judgement and I certainly could not reach a conclusion based on the data that appears on Radarvirtuel, interesting though it is as a website.

parsi

Jammyc wrote: »

I just think that no matter what side of the argument comments like this do nothing to help the situation and are purely ****-stirring to get some attention.



Its a rash and stupid thing to do to cast all ATCO's in this light. Taxi drivers earn quite a bit as far as I'm aware, but I didnt see any of this thrash being spouted about them when they striked.

It's amusing really . French ATC went on strike last week as well but the Ryanair notices didn't have any of the invective that MOL uses when dealing with Irish issues. Perhaps it's because he knows that the others don't give a fiddlers what he thinks ?

gaff85

At least the Irish ATC's have radar screens to track flights, notthing like that in Haiti at the minute,




Work like this for a couple of weeks, then you can go on strike.

Beeker

Su Campu wrote: »

Having taken up an unhealthy obsession interest in Radarvirtuel.com over the last week or so, I can't help noticing that even at the busiest times for transatlantic traffic (mornings and afternoons), the number of aircraft actually in the EISN airspace at any one time is pretty low (maybe 5 or 6), so the extra workload involved in manual spacing (if that's their gripe?) is pretty tame. Isn't that why ATCOs are hand-picked and put through a rigorous training program, to give spacing to aircraft? Or is it supposed to be a fully automated system now, and that's why they're complaining, that they now have mental math to do. Ridiculous I know, but looking at it, it seems I could do it myself!

Here's the AIC describing the new system

http://www.iaa.ie/safe_reg/iaip/Published%20Files/Circ%20Files/2009/EI_AIC_2009_11_en.pdf

Dont forget all the low level traffic, GA aircraft and of course Aer Arann flights which dont show up on radarvirtuel.

Jammyc

just an aside question, but how long before the estimated departure time would a flight normally be looking for clearance/pushback etc.?

donkey balls

when i used to load our company acft and the main door was being closed the crew would inform ground control that they were ready for push back.
sometimes you would get an early pushback depending on ramp congestion and ATC flow restictions.