Turning of the Sovereign Seal this Thursday!

Cróga

This Thursday the 21st at 12 noon the annual Turning of the Sovereign Seal takes place inside the Mansion House as has been done for the past 90 years which will be performed by Billy McGuire who is the current President of the IRB (Irish Republican Brotherhood) and current sovereign seal holder.

The sovereign seal (12 string harp) is the true emblem of the Sovereign Republic. The turning of the seal is what grants licence from “We the People” to the government to act and perform as we desire and to be renewed every year.

Hope to see ya there!

Here's a powerpoint presentation of his:
http://mwhiggins.com/IrishHistory.html (best viewed in Intenet Explorer)

Newspaper articles of interest:
http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/tradition-has-many-strings-to-its-bow-126072.html
http://www.limerickleader.ie/features/Askeatons-Billy-reasserts-sovereignty.4900561.jp
http://www.savetara.com/statements/012108_sovereign.html

Tir na Saor Radio also interviewed Billy and audio podcast can be found here: http://www.tnsradio.com/interview-with-billy-mcguire

Enjoy

freefromgov

The mansion house have confirmed by telephone that this is happening at 12 noon on the 21st which is this Thursday ..
There was an article a while back in the Hotpress magazine about it ... I believe the band Greenday were on the cover.

dermot_sheehan

Moved to History

(assuming it's the appropriate forum)

freefromgov

gabhain7 wrote: »

Moved to History

(assuming it's the appropriate forum)

Well it hasn't happened yet ? ? ? ? I would prefer to have this thread restored please Thank you.
Also it's of major significance to the legal world more so than anything as they have had no delegated, legislative, Authority from the sovereign people living on the land .... but perhaps the moderators here prefer to hide this from the leagle eagles on this forum for fear that they may fully realize exactly what it means ......

freefromgov

I know you see this Moderators...... Please return this thread to its original location .... Surely you don't think that the respondents in the legal section are of so delicate a nature that they will fail to rebut any presumption that I could provide ? ? ?....lol


Funny though .... normally one does not expect to get Trolled by the Moderators on a forum ....

Rebelheart

freefromgov wrote: »

Well it hasn't happened yet ? ? ? ? I would prefer to have this thread restored please Thank you.
Also it's of major significance to the legal world more so than anything as they have had no delegated, legislative, Authority from the sovereign people living on the land .... but perhaps the moderators here prefer to hide this from the leagle eagles on this forum for fear that they may fully realize exactly what it means ......

First, 'major significance to the legal world' doesn't sound like a very measured and legalistic response to this tradition. Second, while it is true that 'legal' (or even "leagle") and 'eagle' do rhyme, the average member of the legal profession is probably on the booze at this moment or planning his/her emigration to another common law jurisdiction. Third, developing a conspiracy theory about this is really silly, particularly the inference that, of all people in Ireland, wig-wearing English title-using members of the legal profession would be defenders of Irish independence and sovereignty.

freefromgov

Rebelheart wrote: »

First, 'major significance to the legal world' doesn't sound like a very measured and legalistic response to this tradition. Second, while it is true that 'legal' (or even "leagle") and 'eagle' do rhyme, the average member of the legal profession is probably on the booze at this moment or planning his/her emigration to another common law jurisdiction. Third, developing a conspiracy theory about this is really silly, particularly the inference that, of all people in Ireland, wig-wearing English title-using members of the legal profession would be defenders of Irish independence and sovereignty.

Really ... !!!! well I'm glad to hear it they should be ... so why then are the courts operating with a 13 string Harp above their head ? ? ? and not the 12 string as was assigned for that purpose by Cathal Brugha and the boyos ? ? ? Oh and just so you know this is not just a tradition ... it's where the Chief justice should be to get his licence from the people renewed .....

freefromgov

Rebelheart wrote: »

First, 'major significance to the legal world' doesn't sound like a very measured and legalistic response to this tradition. Second, while it is true that 'legal' (or even "leagle") and 'eagle' do rhyme, the average member of the legal profession is probably on the booze at this moment or planning his/her emigration to another common law jurisdiction. Third, developing a conspiracy theory about this is really silly, particularly the inference that, of all people in Ireland, wig-wearing English title-using members of the legal profession would be defenders of Irish independence and sovereignty.

I'll tell you what Rebel ( not much of a rebel if you don't know where or how and by what means the Republic came into being) tell me what's the difference between a republic and a democracy ? ? ? in your own words ? ? ?
and then tell me what you live in ......

freefromgov

Rebelheart wrote: »

First, 'major significance to the legal world' doesn't sound like a very measured and legalistic response to this tradition. Second, while it is true that 'legal' (or even "leagle") and 'eagle' do rhyme, the average member of the legal profession is probably on the booze at this moment or planning his/her emigration to another common law jurisdiction. Third, developing a conspiracy theory about this is really silly, particularly the inference that, of all people in Ireland, wig-wearing English title-using members of the legal profession would be defenders of Irish independence and sovereignty.

Tell me something "Rebelheart" are you telling me that you knew about this event that happens every year in the Mansion house .... if so how long have you known and where did you find out about it ?

Victor

freefromgov wrote: »

it's where the Chief justice should be to get his licence from the people renewed .....

Do you mean the Chief Justice of Ireland or the Irish Republic?

freefromgov

Tonight on TNSradio 20/01/2010 We interview Billy Maguire again the holder of the Sovereign Seal of the People of Ireland. The Ceremony is tomorrow at 12 noon in the Mansion House, Dublin. There have been many interesting developments in the backround and hopefully they will be discussed tonight...... tune in guys should be interesting ..... Peace

www.tnsradio.com

brianthebard

freefromgov, please don't 'call out' other posters. There is no moderator trolling, gabhain decided this topic was better suited to history and I'm happy to stand by that decision. If you want a discussion on the topic of the seal in the legal discussion forum, then frame it in such a way as to be applicable to the forum. Mod.

InTheTrees

Cróga wrote: »

The turning of the seal is what grants licence from “We the People” to the government to act and perform as we desire and to be renewed every year.

I dont see any mention in the constitution?

freefromgov

brianthebard wrote: »

freefromgov, please don't 'call out' other posters. There is no moderator trolling, gabhain decided this topic was better suited to history and I'm happy to stand by that decision. If you want a discussion on the topic of the seal in the legal discussion forum, then frame it in such a way as to be applicable to the forum. Mod.

Well if you had any comprehension of the actual matter, you would realize it was placed in the correct forum the original poster has a good comprehension, so that's why they placed it there.

freefromgov

So ok let me get this straight ... Gabhain7 (moderator) Victor ( moderator) and Biranthebard (moderator) so besides me ,rebelheart and inthetrees the rest of the comments are from Moderators .... but I'm not expected to think this (moved thread) is being trolled by the mods .... lol right ok sure I'll but that for a dollar ...lol :rolleyes:

freefromgov

InTheTrees wrote: »

I dont see any mention in the constitution?

Why would you expect to find it there ? Do you find the proclamation of independence in there ? .... but it happened right ... surely you don't dispute that ?
Oh BTW are you talking about the "blue book" constitutuion or the literal translation of the consititution that you can download and read from www.wethepeople.ie I think you'll be supprised... as even the blue book points to the Irish definition as being the primary one ... check out article 41.1.1. for example spot the difference ? between Invincible and impriscriptable
interesting Huh ?
Peace

brianthebard

freefromgov banned for three days for off topic posting, abuse, insults, ignoring in thread warning and questioning mod in thread. Mod.

CDfm

interesting topic - i have never heard of the sovereign seal before.

its a ritual and seems to be a private thing and has no real significance

tradition but sovereignty is from the people and not a 12 string harp

guiness have been using the harp for many years as a trademark

Simarillion

I'd never heard of it either! I'd like to know more, pity it was brought up by some crazy rant poster.

Victor

CDfm wrote: »

guiness have been using the harp for many years as a trademark

Different harp. All the state harps (some departments have stylised harps) point in one direction, while others point in the other direction.

Guinness http://www.guinness.com/en-ie/

time lord

This topic was covered by "The Gerry Ryan Show" a few years ago, as far as I remember each gov. dept. has a differant no. of string to their harp.
Legally I cant shed any light but i often think we lack a bit of pagentry as a nation, so beef up the occasion i say.

johnnyskeleton

Sounds like a pretty strange tradition. What does the president of the IRB have to do with national soverignty or, for that matter, why does he have the right to act on behalf of the irish people.

I agree that we lack the peagantry of the UK and it would be no harm to have some symbolic acknowledgement that the power comes from the people not the organs of the state. But at a time when more than 1 in 4 irish people don't support the current government, it seems like a completely hollow gesture.

By contrast, I read once that outside the sweedish parliament there is a specific plaza which can be used by protesters. Several times in sweeden's history people have protested here and had changes made, sometimes even toppling governments.

If this ceremony was a chance for people to go out and march on the streets and show their contempt for the current government and/or was a way to request the present to dissolve the dail, then it would be a worthy ceremony. As it is, it just sounds like Gormenghast for nationalists.

brianthebard

Can't remember if I read this in Patrick Maume's Long Gestation or Hobsbawm's Nations and Nationalism but the lack of ceremony in Irish state life is/was a reaction to the obvious pomp of the British system. Makes sense to me, and tbh I don't see how it would improve politics to add that sort of thing in. But that's just me.

CDfm

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

Sounds like a pretty strange tradition. What does the president of the IRB have to do with national soverignty or, for that matter, why does he have the right to act on behalf of the irish people.

i didnt even think the IRB still existed

By contrast, I read once that outside the sweedish parliament there is a specific plaza which can be used by protesters. Several times in sweeden's history people have protested here and had changes made, sometimes even toppling government

The Isle Of Man has a day called Tynwald Day where people with grievences can petition the Tynwald directly on their issues.

Swedens government had an interesting gestation and was brought together by a guy King Gustav II Adolf and involved a consultative process between different parts of society royal, nobility,mercantile and peasants. So it possibly evolved from that.

Cant see myself what this guy in his grandfathers felt hat has to do with anything.

oceanclub

This tradition sounds bizarre for a number of reasons:

1. Who are the current IRB? According to Wikipedia, the body was disbanded in 1922. Google turns up no mention of a latter day one apart from this article. How is the body constituted? Is it a government body or independent? If the seal belongs to the government, then how can a bunch of self-appointed people turn up every year to hold a ritual with it?

2. Isn't it ironic to have what appears to be a hereditary leadership for a republican body?

3. The idea that a republican body should appear to be holding part in hokey mystic rituals is also a bit weird.

P.

CDfm

brianthebard wrote: »

Can't remember if I read this in Patrick Maume's Long Gestation or Hobsbawm's Nations and Nationalism but the lack of ceremony in Irish state life is/was a reaction to the obvious pomp of the British system. Makes sense to me, and tbh I don't see how it would improve politics to add that sort of thing in. But that's just me.

In fact it was a tradition to ridicule British Pomp with the Cuirt Filiochta etc.

I am becoming obsessed with the green felt hat that his grandfather owned. That part of the story is just surreal.

Rebelheart

time lord wrote: »

but i often think we lack a bit of pagentry as a nation, so beef up the occasion i say.

And thank our non-existent God for that. I almost vomited when I saw a picture - portrait - of Mary McAleese and her family about two years ago: our very own royal family.

I was initially deeply impressed by that woman's humility when she refused to attend the Dublin Society - Royal Dublin Society as the British royalist cult renamed it in the 19th century - when she was first elected and instead went off to the Gaeltacht to brush up on her Irish leaving behind a livid and utterly inconsolable Kevin Myers at this snub (yes, remember that article!). When Nora Owen implied McAleese was not Irish, I rushed to her defence and made a point of voting in that election. But then in that portrait she comes out with this neo-colonial version of the British royal family. Horrendous.

God forbid we become like those Saxe-Coburg-Gotha - renamed Windsor in 1917 - inbreds, and that entire class of pompous nouveau riche upstarts. Mere merchants, as a matter of historical record. Huh.

Keep it real. Don't be getting notions about yourself. One of the best and most admirable things about Irish culture is this down-to-earth character, a consciousness that we are all not far away from the same socio-economic roots and status. Humility is refreshing. It is much more human, too.

Those deeply insecure muppets with notions about themselves really inspire me to remind them of where they come from. Always, and consistently so. Again: keep it real.

/rant over.

Rebelheart

oceanclub wrote: »

According to Wikipedia, the body was disbanded in 1922.

Without any evidence, I find it hard to believe that all members of the IRB agreed to such a disbandment considering, AFAIR, a majority of IRA volunteers were against the treaty in that same year. It could be true, but given the nature of the people who were members of the IRB, I find it unlikely especially in the context of the continuing existence of a large anti-Treaty IRA grouping.

Cróga

Well here it is for those that missed it....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JG2_J6POkPk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hzppYzAQYK0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R9iMmjVlfNo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yzGn9wQ0Hms

InTheTrees

Rebelheart wrote: »

Without any evidence, I find it hard to believe that all members of the IRB agreed to such a disbandment considering, AFAIR, a majority of IRA volunteers were against the treaty in that same year. It could be true, but given the nature of the people who were members of the IRB, I find it unlikely especially in the context of the continuing existence of a large anti-Treaty IRA grouping.

Not that I have anything against Maguire's. In fact I've never met a Maguire I didnt get along with, but... It seems that its more about the Maguires and their old felt hat than it is about the IRB, and maybe they're just using the IRB connection to give the whole charade a little more legitimacy?

time lord

Rebelheart wrote: »

And thank our non-existent God for that. I almost vomited when I saw a picture - portrait - of Mary McAleese and her family about two years ago: our very own royal family.

I was initially deeply impressed by that woman's humility when she refused to attend the Dublin Society - Royal Dublin Society as the British royalist cult renamed it in the 19th century - when she was first elected and instead went off to the Gaeltacht to brush up on her Irish leaving behind a livid and utterly inconsolable Kevin Myers at this snub (yes, remember that article!). When Nora Owen implied McAleese was not Irish, I rushed to her defence and made a point of voting in that election. But then in that portrait she comes out with this neo-colonial version of the British royal family. Horrendous.

God forbid we become like those Saxe-Coburg-Gotha - renamed Windsor in 1917 - inbreds, and that entire class of pompous nouveau riche upstarts. Mere merchants, as a matter of historical record. Huh.

Keep it real. Don't be getting notions about yourself. One of the best and most admirable things about Irish culture is this down-to-earth character, a consciousness that we are all not far away from the same socio-economic roots and status. Humility is refreshing. It is much more human, too.

Those deeply insecure muppets with notions about themselves really inspire me to remind them of where they come from. Always, and consistently so. Again: keep it real.

/rant over.

Pagentry is not linked to the hip with our neighbours in the U.K. A child standing on top of a box with the no. one written on it receiving their community games medal is pagentry. The G.A.A. players parading around Croke Park is pagentry, an open top bus welcoming home the victorious team is pagentry.

God forbid we would all live in your grey dull vision of Ireland afraid to assert itself. Keeping it real, national confidence and pagentry are linked at the hip and a bit more would be all the better.