Turning of the Sovereign Seal this Thursday!

Victor

Rebelheart wrote: »

And thank our non-existent God for that. I almost vomited when I saw a picture - portrait - of Mary McAleese and her family about two years ago: our very own royal family.

My parent's living room is full of family portraits. Whats the problem?

Rebelheart wrote: »

Without any evidence, I find it hard to believe that all members of the IRB agreed to such a disbandment considering, AFAIR, a majority of IRA volunteers were against the treaty in that same year. It could be true, but given the nature of the people who were members of the IRB, I find it unlikely especially in the context of the continuing existence of a large anti-Treaty IRA grouping.

Surely an irrelevant point. It was disbanded - nobody resurrected it.

Rebelheart

Victor wrote: »

My parent's living room is full of family portraits. Whats the problem?

Mary McAleese is not part of my family, but it is curious that you are equating publicly-released photos of the head of this state and her family with your own family photos. Her photos were taken specifically for public distribution.

She, and she alone, was elected to a civic office of this state, this rēs pūblica. Her family was not. In a monarchy where blood decides such things, the denizens might not appreciate the difference and indeed be familiar with the entire family of a head of state being displayed to the world. What McAleese and her advisors attempted to do was project that cultural world, made popular by the British tabloids especially, upon a political and constitutional landscape where it has no legitimacy or tradition.

Victor

Rebelheart wrote: »

publicly-released photos

You said nothing of this and I would think its down to context. My parents do have a picture of the president with my sister.

If there is a state dinner in the Arás is Martin McAlesse to be excluded (from a meal in his own home?).

Maybe there is (modest) public demand for such photos.

Of all the photos I've seen of presidents, taoisigh and ministers their families tend to take the backstage. Certainly we tend to be more up to date with who Britney is riding thatn Bertie (although one can never be sure).

CDfm

the video says that without this the courts etc would not be legal.

thats nuts and untrue as sovereignty etc derives from the people

Rebelheart

CDfm wrote: »

thats nuts and untrue as sovereignty etc derives from the people

Theoretically, it may be true that sovereignty rests with the people. However, in reality sovereignty is distributed within the Irish system and indeed some of it rests outside it, such as in the European parliament and Commission where all EU member states have in effect pooled their sovereignty.

CDfm

Rebelheart wrote: »

Theoretically, it may be true that sovereignty rests with the people. However, in reality sovereignty is distributed within the Irish system and indeed some of it rests outside it, such as in the European parliament and Commission where all EU member states have in effect pooled their sovereignty.

there is no theory about it -it does.

joining the EU was done after it was approved by referendum/plebsicate so sovereignty is with the people and derived from the people.

it does not rest with a harp or felt hat from a self appointed retired pub owner from co kerry.

the idea that this ceremony has any significance or legality at all is a fallacy -in the same way organisations like the 32 county sovereignty bunch have no legal standing or mandate in the state.

So I think its right to ask who he is and who he represents and why he is up to this in the Mansion House?

Rebelheart

CDfm wrote: »

there is no theory about it -it does.

Unfortunately it is not that simple. If sovereignty still rested entirely with the people then every single piece of legislation which granted power to an organisation, for instance, would need their direct consent. It doesn't because the people have granted some sovereignty to the Oireachtas, some to the President, some to the European Union and, arguably, some to judges who partake in judicial review.

The people still maintain some sovereignty but to say they maintain full sovereignty does not reflect the diffusion in the system since 1916, or 1919 or 1937. It is a really nice idea, but very impracticable.

CDfm

Hey but its derived from the people who have agreed to that form of government. Back to the Green Felt Hat RH -from where does the hat derive its authority.I am challenging its legitamacy.

CDfm

Victor wrote: »

If there is a state dinner in the Arás is Martin McAlesse to be excluded (from a meal in his own home?
.

Its not his home - its the Presidents residence whoever that may be.

However, don't official functions normally take place in the State Apartments at Dublin Castle.????

InTheTrees

CDfm wrote: »

Back to the Green Felt Hat RH -from where does the hat derive its authority.I am challenging its legitamacy.

If anything happens to the Hat we're screwed.

CDfm

InTheTrees wrote: »

If anything happens to the Hat we're screwed.

Truth is stranger than fiction

http://www.classiccrimefiction.com/bush-felt-hat.htm

Victor

CDfm wrote: »

However, don't official functions normally take place in the State Apartments at Dublin Castle.????

It really depends on the event and the size of the event.

If the president was to have dinner with a government official, an ambassador or a head of state / government it wouldn't be in the State Apartments.

freefromgov

For any that are interested I interviewed Billy Maguire on www.tnsradio twice I'll post the links below.
http://www.tnsradio.com/interview-with-billy-mcguire

and

http://www.tnsradio.com/the-irish-people-are-sovereign

I have been researching this matter for quite some time now.

I will compile all of the information with references etc. when done.

kinkyknees

oceanclub wrote: »

This tradition sounds bizarre for a number of reasons:

1. Who are the current IRB? According to Wikipedia, the body was disbanded in 1922. Google turns up no mention of a latter day one apart from this article. How is the body constituted? Is it a government body or independent? If the seal belongs to the government, then how can a bunch of self-appointed people turn up every year to hold a ritual with it?

2. Isn't it ironic to have what appears to be a hereditary leadership for a republican body?

3. The idea that a republican body should appear to be holding part in hokey mystic rituals is also a bit weird.

P.

Some good questions there. Pity you don't seem to be getting an answer. I attended the ceremony myself - more out of curiosity than anything else - and I was amazed to see that Maguire character plucking one of his buddies from the crowd to elevate him to the position of Chief Justice. It's been bugging me ever since.

Who ever gave him the right to confer such titles upon people? He's the president of what it now more or less known as a fraternal organization and what, he's telling us that without him and his hokus pokus ritual we somehow lose our sovereignty? Snap out of it.

Another thing, a portion of our 'group' took off to the freemasonry grand lodge on Molesworth street straight after this dubious ritual. From one fraternity to another. What the hell has any of this got to do with the people of Ireland?

I want to know who or what gives this Maguire family the right to pull of these ritualistic practices on behalf of the people. I also want to know why it's supposedly obligatory for the taoisach, president and mayor of Dublin to be present at this event. Why the hell would they be answerable to this Maguire family?

CDfm

kinkyknees wrote: »

I attended the ceremony myself - more out of curiosity than anything else - and I was amazed to see that Maguire character plucking one of his buddies from the crowd to elevate him to the position of Chief Justice. I

Who ever gave him the right to confer such titles upon people? He's the president of what it now more or less known as a fraternal organization and what, he's telling us that without him and his hokus pokus ritual we somehow lose our sovereignty? Snap out of it.

I also want to know why it's supposedly obligatory for the taoisach, president and mayor of Dublin to be present at this event. Why the hell would they be answerable to this Maguire family?

Great post - why. I wonder what the Taoiseachs office would say?

InTheTrees

kinkyknees wrote: »

Some good questions there. Pity you don't seem to be getting an answer. I attended the ceremony myself - more out of curiosity than anything else - and I was amazed to see that Maguire character plucking one of his buddies from the crowd to elevate him to the position of Chief Justice. It's been bugging me ever since.

Who ever gave him the right to confer such titles upon people? He's the president of what it now more or less known as a fraternal organization and what, he's telling us that without him and his hokus pokus ritual we somehow lose our sovereignty? Snap out of it.

Another thing, a portion of our 'group' took off to the freemasonry grand lodge on Molesworth street straight after this dubious ritual. From one fraternity to another. What the hell has any of this got to do with the people of Ireland?

I want to know who or what gives this Maguire family the right to pull of these ritualistic practices on behalf of the people. I also want to know why it's supposedly obligatory for the taoisach, president and mayor of Dublin to be present at this event. Why the hell would they be answerable to this Maguire family?

Exactly. This is just a Maguire junket and not much to do with the IRB, after all its not as though the presidency of the IRB is a hereditary title given to a Maguire is it? So what happens after Billy dies? Who does it go to next?

CDfm

InTheTrees wrote: »

Exactly. This is just a Maguire junket and not much to do with the IRB, after all its not as though the presidency of the IRB is a hereditary title given to a Maguire is it? So what happens after Billy dies? Who does it go to next?

Nobody seems to know.

The Chieftains of Irelands sucessors have a form or recognition.

Rebelheart

kinkyknees wrote: »

Some good questions there. Pity you don't seem to be getting an answer. I attended the ceremony myself - more out of curiosity than anything else - and I was amazed to see that Maguire character plucking one of his buddies from the crowd to elevate him to the position of Chief Justice. It's been bugging me ever since.

Who ever gave him the right to confer such titles upon people? He's the president of what it now more or less known as a fraternal organization and what, he's telling us that without him and his hokus pokus ritual we somehow lose our sovereignty? Snap out of it.

Another thing, a portion of our 'group' took off to the freemasonry grand lodge on Molesworth street straight after this dubious ritual. From one fraternity to another. What the hell has any of this got to do with the people of Ireland?

I want to know who or what gives this Maguire family the right to pull of these ritualistic practices on behalf of the people. I also want to know why it's supposedly obligatory for the taoisach, president and mayor of Dublin to be present at this event. Why the hell would they be answerable to this Maguire family?

In fairness, his name is Billy - hardly a name which would bring the ultimate horror of a return to rule by those Irish rather than the current rule by the, to paraphrase the poet, "new English named the Irish'. But then, of course, we all know the family name of the slithery little scumbag who was giving information to the English from the ship which carried the earls on the famous Flight of the Earls in 1607.

It's a bit 'Oisín i ndiaidh na bhFiann' for Liam Mac Uidhir to be suddenly concerned about 'sovereignty' following that massive bit of treachery by the family name. Who says history is not useful

Saor_agus_Gra

oceanclub wrote: »

This tradition sounds bizarre for a number of reasons:

1. Who are the current IRB? According to Wikipedia, the body was disbanded in 1922. Google turns up no mention of a latter day one apart from this article. How is the body constituted? Is it a government body or independent? If the seal belongs to the government, then how can a bunch of self-appointed people turn up every year to hold a ritual with it?

2. Isn't it ironic to have what appears to be a hereditary leadership for a republican body?

3. The idea that a republican body should appear to be holding part in hokey mystic rituals is also a bit weird.

P.

I think a lot of folks, are a bit confused on this matter. I have always been into history and I also attended the ceremony, and when you really look at it, it makes so much sense.

I'll try answer some of these questions the best I can...

Firstly, the current IRB I do not know specifically who these people are. However, consider it was member's of the IRB that formed the first ever Dáil, so theoretically that should make all our current member of the Dáil members of the IRB. When you consider that the IRB was only created in our fight against oppression, it is only natural to assume that once that oppression pulled out that the ideals would remain where as the formality of the organisation would fade. So the IRB declared Independence on behalf of our whole nation, they were then formally recognised through the 32 county election, and become the first Dáil. So it would have began as Independent and then went on to become and set up the State as we know it. Also the seal does not belong to the Government, it belongs to the People. The seal is symbolic of our Sovereignty. So the Seal validates the Government, Courts, and all licensing as they derive their power from the people. It needs to be turned once a year and must be accepted by the Government. The power is derived from the people. Thus the turning of the seal is symbolic of us, the people passing our power and permission on to our government to enact as our government. Just as we have to power to give it, we also have to power to take it away.

Secondly, this wasn't always a hereditory title as Billy himself mentions in the first TnS interview... The head of the IRB was appointed by means of an election. However, I think after the death of Collins it was decided that it was too high risk to nominate and elect a leader, drawing attention to it and then ending up with a dead leader, so it was passed down through the McGuire family.

Thirdly, you may think it weird that a republian body would hold a "hokey mystic ritual"... But think about this logically for a second, and really consider the meaning of the word Sovereignty. (Also keep in mind that Collins had said that most of the problems after the signing of the Treaty arose over the meaning of the word 'sovereignty'.)

Ok, post oppression we were Gaelic people under Brehon Law with our own customs etc.. The consept of sovereignty did not exist, we were just all free, minding our own business, harming no one and in the instance that a disbute arose we had Brehon Law to resolve our issues. So then oppression and we became subjects to the crown of England. Now under the crown, the Queen is Sovereign. She is the only one who is Sovereign and everyone else is subject to the crown, including us at one time. So in order for us to be fully independent of that crown, we must first be sovereign too. Sovereignty raises us to the level of freedom and on equal status with the Crown, as individuals and as a nation. If we are not Soveirgn then we are subjects... In light of that, I think it would be weird for a republican body not to invoke Sovereignty. As it would not be much good being a republic if you are not sovereign and still subject to the crown,no?

oceanclub

Saor_agus_Gra wrote: »

However, consider it was member's of the IRB that formed the first ever Dáil

No, it was the elected representatives of the people who formed the first Dail. If it's true they were all members of the IRB - do you have a reference - that's neither here nor there, any more than they were all white.

so theoretically that should make all our current member of the Dáil members of the IRB.

Sorry, that's no more a logical conclusion than "all members of the first Dail were white, that should make all the current ones white".

Also the seal does not belong to the Government, it belongs to the People. The seal is symbolic of our Sovereignty. So the Seal validates the Government, Courts, and all licensing as they derive their power from the people.

OK, I agree with this bit. In which case, why is the ceremony the responsibility of an unelected hereditary body over which "the People" have absolutely no say?

It needs to be turned once a year and must be accepted by the Government.

Sorry, but this is where you get into mystical bunkum. The seal no more needs to be turned than it needs holy water sprinkled on it.

As I say, you keep mentioning "the People" and using this as a reason to support an unelected secret(*) hereditary body. Does not compute.

(*)Would it kill them to have even a web page?

P.

CDfm

+1 oceanclub 100%

Saor_agus_Gra wrote: »

The power is derived from the people. Thus the turning of the seal is symbolic of us, the people passing our power and permission on to our government to enact as our government. Just as we have to power to give it, we also have to power to take it away.

This is the part that gets me that somehow we owe our sovereignty to something other than the people. These people can take it away if they want then?

Secondly, this wasn't always a hereditory title as Billy himself mentions in the first TnS interview... The head of the IRB was appointed by means of an election. However, I think after the death of Collins it was decided that it was too high risk to nominate and elect a leader, drawing attention to it and then ending up with a dead leader, so it was passed down through the McGuire family.

So the country became independent and the Defense Forses became the Irish Army and its C in C is the President.

Now that bit I understand .

Thirdly, you may think it weird that a republian body would hold a "hokey mystic ritual"...
?

If that body has ceased to exist and the Taoiseasch is there and the President is there and its not mentioned in the Constitution.

Saor_agus_Gra

oceanclub wrote: »

No, it was the elected representatives of the people who formed the first Dail. If it's true they were all members of the IRB - do you have a reference - that's neither here nor there, any more than they were all white.

Ok, yes I worded that incorrectly. The member's of the first Dáil were elected representives, but they were also member's of the IRB... The IRB was huge at the time and went about setting up all the institutions in this country including the GAA, Sinn Fein, IRA (now our defence forces), the Volunteers (now An Garda Siochana) etc... I do not have a link, I dont know many good history websites. I tend to use books for that. I would recommend a book called 'How Ireland is Governed', it is a very old book that a friend of mine stumbled upon. I think its by James O'Donnell.

Sorry, that's no more a logical conclusion than "all members of the first Dail were white, that should make all the current ones white".

Its not a conclusion, the IRB swore an oath to strive for a democratic republic. The first dail (of which many if not all members were part of the IRB) then draft a constitution, which they swear to uphold. The second Dail's constitution is also based on the first one. And the oath would and still is sworn in the presence of Almighty God to uphold a democratic republic. All the IRB did was bring together and clearly outline those ideals. I believe that any man or woman sitting in Dáil Éireann swearing to uphold a democratic republic would hold the same ideals as those who founded it. Do you not think so? If not, then what was the point in all those men dying?

OK, I agree with this bit. In which case, why is the ceremony the responsibility of an unelected hereditary body over which "the People" have absolutely no say?

The people do have a say, they just havent been saying anything!

Sorry, but this is where you get into mystical bunkum. The seal no more needs to be turned than it needs holy water sprinkled on it.

As I say, you keep mentioning "the People" and using this as a reason to support an unelected secret(*) hereditary body. Does not compute.

IRB is not a secret body, it was prior to 1919 when it HAD to be! Now it has been faded into our society in the form of its ideals. And the seal does have to be turned, cause it the Government arent getting their license from the Sovereign people under what jurisdiction are they operating?

oceanclub

Saor_agus_Gra wrote: »

Do you not think so? If not, then what was the point in all those men dying?

I'm really having a hard time following your train of thought; supposition piles upon supposition. I have no idea how you get from "I don't support an unelected hereditary body claiming it represents the will of the people" to "I refute 1916".

The people do have a say, they just havent been saying anything!

This body, the IRB:

* Does not have a web site
* Is not in the phone book
* Does not appear to have a physical address

Please tell me how the average citizen is meant to even hear about its activities, never mind join it.

IRB is not a secret body

See above.

And the seal does have to be turned, cause it the Government arent getting their license from the Sovereign people under what jurisdiction are they operating?

You entirely misunderstand the whole basis from where a Republic derives its legitimacy: through elections by the people, not by turning objects upside down.

P.

CDfm

Saor_agus_Gra wrote: »

.

Its not a conclusion, the IRB swore an oath to strive for a democratic republic. The first dail (of which many if not all members were part of the IRB) then draft a constitution, which they swear to uphold. The second Dail's constitution is also based on the first one. And the oath would and still is sworn in the presence of Almighty God to uphold a democratic republic. All the IRB did was bring together and clearly outline those ideals. I believe that any man or woman sitting in Dáil Éireann swearing to uphold a democratic republic would hold the same ideals as those who founded it. Do you not think so? If not, then what was the point in all those men dying?




IRB is not a secret body, it was prior to 1919 when it HAD to be! Now it has been faded into our society in the form of its ideals. And the seal does have to be turned, cause it the Government arent getting their license from the Sovereign people under what jurisdiction are they operating?

What your are essentially saying is that there is another body the IRB which is unelected and headed by Billy McGuire who was appointed by his Grandfather - who was appointed by Michael Collins to head up a non existant organisation that didnt accept the legitimacy of a country whose sovereignty he(Michael Collins) died fighting to establish/defend.

Now what Im saying is its hogwash -you might as well say it derives its legitimacy from Puc Fair or Athlones St Patricks Day Parade.

It is hocus pocus and its very odd that the Taoiseach etc should be there at all.

A year or so ago -I saw a bunch of guys marching in uniform up my local town and it was very paramilitary and I found it both strange and disturbing.

Saor_agus_Gra

The IRB, its men, women, actions and ideals founded our government and all the institutions in this country. They became our state as we know it. Billy is just the keeper of the seal. It gives him no power, he just has to protect it for us. I am not saying that the republic is founded purely upon the turning of the seal... It is a big part of it... You need to envoke sovereignty. If you look back, it was the military troops removal from this country that allowed our government to step in (this was the term of the Treaty). I am not aware of an documentation signed by the queen and any one in this country that declared us to be sovereign... If we do not envoke it of our own accord and declare independence tell me then how we became sovereign?

This is a Sovereign Democratic Republic, making it different from others. If we do not declare sovereignty we are subjects. Rituals have been used since the dawn of time to symbolise and envoke certain things...
We have given everything in this world a symbol or a value. Just because you have not heard of something does not make it untrue... The IRB is symbolic of an ideal! It was at one point a group of men who came tgether striving for this ideal! Why can people not see this? We are so far removed from our history that we cannot even accept that our government established mainly through the actions and ideals of the IRB. Even though we are a republic,to be an outspoken republican in this country is considered a bad thing. We have come to think of it as a bad thing. Its all about obeying authority, regardless of whether they act lawfully or not...

You do not have to believe, no one has asked you to. Not once. If you disagree, thats your own business. However, do some research and dont take everything at face value. Do not rely on others to answer your questions for you. Only you can find your own truth. For how can you believe the word of another, when you have choosen ignorance? They could very well have lied. Stop depending on others to answer your questions through the creation of an arguement.

Billy spoke about this himself on two occassions, and I had the pleasure to speak to Billy himself. He is a wonderful human being who just wants us all to be free and to have a proper government with its power and authority derived from its people, like we should have had upon the foundation of the State. He knows full well what he is on about and it all connects. I would advise listening to the man and his story before making conclusive arguements and relying on the propganda that is fed to us in schools. Regardless whether you believe him or not, isnt it all about being open minded? None of us where there, we can only rely on what was left behind to true form some version of the truth.

http://www.tnsradio.com/interview-with-billy-mcguire
http://www.tnsradio.com/the-irish-people-are-sovereign

Also as I mentioned before, 'How Ireland is Governed' by James D. O'Donnell
And another one worth considering is 'Path to Freedom' by Michael Collins.

Síocháin agus Saoirse mo chairde.

oceanclub

Even though we are a republic,to be an outspoken republican in this country is considered a bad thing.

I consider myself a republican - small r. What you're talking about - secret societies(*) with hereditary leaders in charge of symbols of state - isn't republicanism.

P.

(*) If they aren't secret, why aren't they contactable?

brianthebard

Saor_agus_Gra wrote: »

The IRB, its men, women, actions and ideals founded our government and all the institutions in this country. They became our state as we know it.

No it didn't, please stop repeating untruths.

Billy is just the keeper of the seal. It gives him no power, he just has to protect it for us. I am not saying that the republic is founded purely upon the turning of the seal... It is a big part of it... You need to envoke sovereignty. If you look back, it was the military troops removal from this country that allowed our government to step in (this was the term of the Treaty). I am not aware of an documentation signed by the queen and any one in this country that declared us to be sovereign... If we do not envoke it of our own accord and declare independence tell me then how we became sovereign?

Very simple, the Republic of Ireland Act. Look it up.

Even though we are a republic,to be an outspoken republican in this country is considered a bad thing. We have come to think of it as a bad thing. Its all about obeying authority, regardless of whether they act lawfully or not...

You're about half a step away from calling people west brits for not believing in the IRB. Its nonsense, the group has no authority and does not protect or guarantee sovereignty in Ireland.

You do not have to believe, no one has asked you to. Not once. If you disagree, thats your own business. However, do some research and dont take everything at face value.

Well you seem to be trying to convince everyone.

I really hope you three will stop pushing your radio website, its not appreciated. This whole tread seems to have been set up with the purpose of advertising yourselves.

Saor_agus_Gra

The Republic of Ireland Act was only signed in 1948. We recognized ourselves a Independent long before that. Regardless of whether Billy is right or wrong about where our Sovereignty comes from, the ceremony in the Mansion House is about celebrating when we Declared our Independence on the 21st of January 1919. Since then a lot has changed, but yet we are one of the only countries in the world that does not celebrate of Independence Day. I just find that a little odd...

brianthebard wrote: »

I really hope you three will stop pushing your radio website, its not appreciated. This whole tread seems to have been set up with the purpose of advertising yourselves.

I wish to point out that I have no affiliated with TnSRadio. I just found these interviews to be very interesting, in little of this topic.

If providing information and references is now referred to as advertising then I guess I'm one big corporate machine.

Victor

Saor_agus_Gra wrote: »

Ok, post oppression we were Gaelic people under Brehon Law with our own customs etc.. The consept of sovereignty did not exist, we were just all free, minding our own business, harming no one and in the instance that a disbute arose we had Brehon Law to resolve our issues. So then oppression and we became subjects to the crown of England. Now under the crown, the Queen is Sovereign. She is the only one who is Sovereign and everyone else is subject to the crown, including us at one time. So in order for us to be fully independent of that crown, we must first be sovereign too. Sovereignty raises us to the level of freedom and on equal status with the Crown, as individuals and as a nation. If we are not Soveirgn then we are subjects... In light of that, I think it would be weird for a republican body not to invoke Sovereignty. As it would not be much good being a republic if you are not sovereign and still subject to the crown,no?

Oddly enough, in the UK, parliament is sovereign.

Saor_agus_Gra wrote: »

Ok, yes I worded that incorrectly. The member's of the first Dáil were elected representives, but they were also member's of the IRB...

...

Its not a conclusion, the IRB swore an oath to strive for a democratic republic. The first dail (of which many if not all members were part of the IRB)

First you say all, then you say many. I amine the Laboutmembers weren't members of the IRB

Saor_agus_Gra wrote: »

The IRB was huge at the time and went about setting up all the institutions in this country including the GAA, Sinn Fein, IRA (now our defence forces), the Volunteers (now An Garda Siochana) etc...

Ah, you're just making stuff up now.

Saor_agus_Gra wrote: »

Since then a lot has changed, but yet we are one of the only countries in the world that does not celebrate of Independence Day.

Well, some would suggest that we declared independence in 1916 and we have a bank holiday on every Easter Monday. However, that declaration of independence was for the Irish Republic, not the Irish Free State and not Ireland. The first Dáil was the dáil of the Irish Republic (not Ireland), so are these whackjobs supporters of the likes of the CIRA / RIRA who hark back to those days?

brianthebard

Saor_agus_Gra wrote: »

The Republic of Ireland Act was only signed in 1948. We recognized ourselves a Independent long before that. Regardless of whether Billy is right or wrong about where our Sovereignty comes from, the ceremony in the Mansion House is about celebrating when we Declared our Independence on the 21st of January 1919. Since then a lot has changed, but yet we are one of the only countries in the world that does not celebrate of Independence Day. I just find that a little odd...

Your argument before now was that we need this IRB charade to remain sovereign, but now that I point out that we have an Act declaring that (which you did not know about, but questioned if such a thing existed) you claim its about independence. Either way, the IRB or the first Dáil have little or nothing to do with independence, which was outlined in the Anglo-Irish Treaty of 1921. The basic point is that the IRB, especially the present day play soldiers have no say in what is sovereign or independent about Ireland.