Turning of the Sovereign Seal this Thursday!

CDfm

+1 oceanclub 100%

Saor_agus_Gra wrote: »

The power is derived from the people. Thus the turning of the seal is symbolic of us, the people passing our power and permission on to our government to enact as our government. Just as we have to power to give it, we also have to power to take it away.

This is the part that gets me that somehow we owe our sovereignty to something other than the people. These people can take it away if they want then?

Secondly, this wasn't always a hereditory title as Billy himself mentions in the first TnS interview... The head of the IRB was appointed by means of an election. However, I think after the death of Collins it was decided that it was too high risk to nominate and elect a leader, drawing attention to it and then ending up with a dead leader, so it was passed down through the McGuire family.

So the country became independent and the Defense Forses became the Irish Army and its C in C is the President.

Now that bit I understand .

Thirdly, you may think it weird that a republian body would hold a "hokey mystic ritual"...
?

If that body has ceased to exist and the Taoiseasch is there and the President is there and its not mentioned in the Constitution.

Saor_agus_Gra

oceanclub wrote: »

No, it was the elected representatives of the people who formed the first Dail. If it's true they were all members of the IRB - do you have a reference - that's neither here nor there, any more than they were all white.

Ok, yes I worded that incorrectly. The member's of the first Dáil were elected representives, but they were also member's of the IRB... The IRB was huge at the time and went about setting up all the institutions in this country including the GAA, Sinn Fein, IRA (now our defence forces), the Volunteers (now An Garda Siochana) etc... I do not have a link, I dont know many good history websites. I tend to use books for that. I would recommend a book called 'How Ireland is Governed', it is a very old book that a friend of mine stumbled upon. I think its by James O'Donnell.

Sorry, that's no more a logical conclusion than "all members of the first Dail were white, that should make all the current ones white".

Its not a conclusion, the IRB swore an oath to strive for a democratic republic. The first dail (of which many if not all members were part of the IRB) then draft a constitution, which they swear to uphold. The second Dail's constitution is also based on the first one. And the oath would and still is sworn in the presence of Almighty God to uphold a democratic republic. All the IRB did was bring together and clearly outline those ideals. I believe that any man or woman sitting in Dáil Éireann swearing to uphold a democratic republic would hold the same ideals as those who founded it. Do you not think so? If not, then what was the point in all those men dying?

OK, I agree with this bit. In which case, why is the ceremony the responsibility of an unelected hereditary body over which "the People" have absolutely no say?

The people do have a say, they just havent been saying anything!

Sorry, but this is where you get into mystical bunkum. The seal no more needs to be turned than it needs holy water sprinkled on it.

As I say, you keep mentioning "the People" and using this as a reason to support an unelected secret(*) hereditary body. Does not compute.

IRB is not a secret body, it was prior to 1919 when it HAD to be! Now it has been faded into our society in the form of its ideals. And the seal does have to be turned, cause it the Government arent getting their license from the Sovereign people under what jurisdiction are they operating?

oceanclub

Saor_agus_Gra wrote: »

Do you not think so? If not, then what was the point in all those men dying?

I'm really having a hard time following your train of thought; supposition piles upon supposition. I have no idea how you get from "I don't support an unelected hereditary body claiming it represents the will of the people" to "I refute 1916".

The people do have a say, they just havent been saying anything!

This body, the IRB:

* Does not have a web site
* Is not in the phone book
* Does not appear to have a physical address

Please tell me how the average citizen is meant to even hear about its activities, never mind join it.

IRB is not a secret body

See above.

And the seal does have to be turned, cause it the Government arent getting their license from the Sovereign people under what jurisdiction are they operating?

You entirely misunderstand the whole basis from where a Republic derives its legitimacy: through elections by the people, not by turning objects upside down.

P.

CDfm

Saor_agus_Gra wrote: »

.

Its not a conclusion, the IRB swore an oath to strive for a democratic republic. The first dail (of which many if not all members were part of the IRB) then draft a constitution, which they swear to uphold. The second Dail's constitution is also based on the first one. And the oath would and still is sworn in the presence of Almighty God to uphold a democratic republic. All the IRB did was bring together and clearly outline those ideals. I believe that any man or woman sitting in Dáil Éireann swearing to uphold a democratic republic would hold the same ideals as those who founded it. Do you not think so? If not, then what was the point in all those men dying?




IRB is not a secret body, it was prior to 1919 when it HAD to be! Now it has been faded into our society in the form of its ideals. And the seal does have to be turned, cause it the Government arent getting their license from the Sovereign people under what jurisdiction are they operating?

What your are essentially saying is that there is another body the IRB which is unelected and headed by Billy McGuire who was appointed by his Grandfather - who was appointed by Michael Collins to head up a non existant organisation that didnt accept the legitimacy of a country whose sovereignty he(Michael Collins) died fighting to establish/defend.

Now what Im saying is its hogwash -you might as well say it derives its legitimacy from Puc Fair or Athlones St Patricks Day Parade.

It is hocus pocus and its very odd that the Taoiseach etc should be there at all.

A year or so ago -I saw a bunch of guys marching in uniform up my local town and it was very paramilitary and I found it both strange and disturbing.

Saor_agus_Gra

The IRB, its men, women, actions and ideals founded our government and all the institutions in this country. They became our state as we know it. Billy is just the keeper of the seal. It gives him no power, he just has to protect it for us. I am not saying that the republic is founded purely upon the turning of the seal... It is a big part of it... You need to envoke sovereignty. If you look back, it was the military troops removal from this country that allowed our government to step in (this was the term of the Treaty). I am not aware of an documentation signed by the queen and any one in this country that declared us to be sovereign... If we do not envoke it of our own accord and declare independence tell me then how we became sovereign?

This is a Sovereign Democratic Republic, making it different from others. If we do not declare sovereignty we are subjects. Rituals have been used since the dawn of time to symbolise and envoke certain things...
We have given everything in this world a symbol or a value. Just because you have not heard of something does not make it untrue... The IRB is symbolic of an ideal! It was at one point a group of men who came tgether striving for this ideal! Why can people not see this? We are so far removed from our history that we cannot even accept that our government established mainly through the actions and ideals of the IRB. Even though we are a republic,to be an outspoken republican in this country is considered a bad thing. We have come to think of it as a bad thing. Its all about obeying authority, regardless of whether they act lawfully or not...

You do not have to believe, no one has asked you to. Not once. If you disagree, thats your own business. However, do some research and dont take everything at face value. Do not rely on others to answer your questions for you. Only you can find your own truth. For how can you believe the word of another, when you have choosen ignorance? They could very well have lied. Stop depending on others to answer your questions through the creation of an arguement.

Billy spoke about this himself on two occassions, and I had the pleasure to speak to Billy himself. He is a wonderful human being who just wants us all to be free and to have a proper government with its power and authority derived from its people, like we should have had upon the foundation of the State. He knows full well what he is on about and it all connects. I would advise listening to the man and his story before making conclusive arguements and relying on the propganda that is fed to us in schools. Regardless whether you believe him or not, isnt it all about being open minded? None of us where there, we can only rely on what was left behind to true form some version of the truth.

http://www.tnsradio.com/interview-with-billy-mcguire
http://www.tnsradio.com/the-irish-people-are-sovereign

Also as I mentioned before, 'How Ireland is Governed' by James D. O'Donnell
And another one worth considering is 'Path to Freedom' by Michael Collins.

Síocháin agus Saoirse mo chairde.

oceanclub

Even though we are a republic,to be an outspoken republican in this country is considered a bad thing.

I consider myself a republican - small r. What you're talking about - secret societies(*) with hereditary leaders in charge of symbols of state - isn't republicanism.

P.

(*) If they aren't secret, why aren't they contactable?

brianthebard

Saor_agus_Gra wrote: »

The IRB, its men, women, actions and ideals founded our government and all the institutions in this country. They became our state as we know it.

No it didn't, please stop repeating untruths.

Billy is just the keeper of the seal. It gives him no power, he just has to protect it for us. I am not saying that the republic is founded purely upon the turning of the seal... It is a big part of it... You need to envoke sovereignty. If you look back, it was the military troops removal from this country that allowed our government to step in (this was the term of the Treaty). I am not aware of an documentation signed by the queen and any one in this country that declared us to be sovereign... If we do not envoke it of our own accord and declare independence tell me then how we became sovereign?

Very simple, the Republic of Ireland Act. Look it up.

Even though we are a republic,to be an outspoken republican in this country is considered a bad thing. We have come to think of it as a bad thing. Its all about obeying authority, regardless of whether they act lawfully or not...

You're about half a step away from calling people west brits for not believing in the IRB. Its nonsense, the group has no authority and does not protect or guarantee sovereignty in Ireland.

You do not have to believe, no one has asked you to. Not once. If you disagree, thats your own business. However, do some research and dont take everything at face value.

Well you seem to be trying to convince everyone.

I really hope you three will stop pushing your radio website, its not appreciated. This whole tread seems to have been set up with the purpose of advertising yourselves.

Saor_agus_Gra

The Republic of Ireland Act was only signed in 1948. We recognized ourselves a Independent long before that. Regardless of whether Billy is right or wrong about where our Sovereignty comes from, the ceremony in the Mansion House is about celebrating when we Declared our Independence on the 21st of January 1919. Since then a lot has changed, but yet we are one of the only countries in the world that does not celebrate of Independence Day. I just find that a little odd...

brianthebard wrote: »

I really hope you three will stop pushing your radio website, its not appreciated. This whole tread seems to have been set up with the purpose of advertising yourselves.

I wish to point out that I have no affiliated with TnSRadio. I just found these interviews to be very interesting, in little of this topic.

If providing information and references is now referred to as advertising then I guess I'm one big corporate machine.

Victor

Saor_agus_Gra wrote: »

Ok, post oppression we were Gaelic people under Brehon Law with our own customs etc.. The consept of sovereignty did not exist, we were just all free, minding our own business, harming no one and in the instance that a disbute arose we had Brehon Law to resolve our issues. So then oppression and we became subjects to the crown of England. Now under the crown, the Queen is Sovereign. She is the only one who is Sovereign and everyone else is subject to the crown, including us at one time. So in order for us to be fully independent of that crown, we must first be sovereign too. Sovereignty raises us to the level of freedom and on equal status with the Crown, as individuals and as a nation. If we are not Soveirgn then we are subjects... In light of that, I think it would be weird for a republican body not to invoke Sovereignty. As it would not be much good being a republic if you are not sovereign and still subject to the crown,no?

Oddly enough, in the UK, parliament is sovereign.

Saor_agus_Gra wrote: »

Ok, yes I worded that incorrectly. The member's of the first Dáil were elected representives, but they were also member's of the IRB...

...

Its not a conclusion, the IRB swore an oath to strive for a democratic republic. The first dail (of which many if not all members were part of the IRB)

First you say all, then you say many. I amine the Laboutmembers weren't members of the IRB

Saor_agus_Gra wrote: »

The IRB was huge at the time and went about setting up all the institutions in this country including the GAA, Sinn Fein, IRA (now our defence forces), the Volunteers (now An Garda Siochana) etc...

Ah, you're just making stuff up now.

Saor_agus_Gra wrote: »

Since then a lot has changed, but yet we are one of the only countries in the world that does not celebrate of Independence Day.

Well, some would suggest that we declared independence in 1916 and we have a bank holiday on every Easter Monday. However, that declaration of independence was for the Irish Republic, not the Irish Free State and not Ireland. The first Dáil was the dáil of the Irish Republic (not Ireland), so are these whackjobs supporters of the likes of the CIRA / RIRA who hark back to those days?

brianthebard

Saor_agus_Gra wrote: »

The Republic of Ireland Act was only signed in 1948. We recognized ourselves a Independent long before that. Regardless of whether Billy is right or wrong about where our Sovereignty comes from, the ceremony in the Mansion House is about celebrating when we Declared our Independence on the 21st of January 1919. Since then a lot has changed, but yet we are one of the only countries in the world that does not celebrate of Independence Day. I just find that a little odd...

Your argument before now was that we need this IRB charade to remain sovereign, but now that I point out that we have an Act declaring that (which you did not know about, but questioned if such a thing existed) you claim its about independence. Either way, the IRB or the first Dáil have little or nothing to do with independence, which was outlined in the Anglo-Irish Treaty of 1921. The basic point is that the IRB, especially the present day play soldiers have no say in what is sovereign or independent about Ireland.

mahonvalley

The Irish Republican Brotherhood was permanently disbanded after a small ceremony in Dublin in 1924.

End of.

I refer you to any of the recognised histories.

goose2005

Saor_agus_Gra wrote: »

The IRB, its men, women, actions and ideals founded our government and all the institutions in this country. They became our state as we know it.

No, they didn't.

You need to envoke sovereignty.

Why do you need to invoke it?

If you look back, it was the military troops removal from this country that allowed our government to step in (this was the term of the Treaty).

The Dáil already existed at this point

I am not aware of an documentation signed by the queen and any one in this country that declared us to be sovereign... If we do not envoke it of our own accord and declare independence tell me then how we became sovereign?

The King would have signed the Government of Ireland Act in 1921. The 1937 constitution declares Ireland

This is a Sovereign Democratic Republic, making it different from others.

No, it makes it the same as the others.

Why can people not see this? We are so far removed from our history that we cannot even accept that our government established mainly through the actions and ideals of the IRB. Even though we are a republic,to be an outspoken republican in this country is considered a bad thing. We have come to think of it as a bad thing. Its all about obeying authority, regardless of whether they act lawfully or not...

You do not have to believe, no one has asked you to. Not once. If you disagree, thats your own business.

No-one said the IRB couldn't do this; we just thought is was odd for so many high-ranking government figures to attend.

Also, your username means "Free and Love"; I think you mean "Saoirse agus Grá".

CDfm

goose2005 wrote: »

No, they didn't. Why do you need to invoke it? The Dáil already existed at this point The King would have signed the Government of Ireland Act in 1921. The 1937 constitution declares Ireland

And you had the Home Rule Act 1913 so its arguable what the IRB added to it constitutionally

No-one said the IRB couldn't do this; we just thought is was odd for so many high-ranking government figures to attend.

Very odd indeed

freefromgov

Hi folks there is another link here on boards that relates to this topic here it is http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=65872923#post65872923

mahonvalley

It would appear that Mr Billy McGuire has a Scottish equivalent!

Ladies and gentleman, I give you Mr Peter Dow, self-appointed "Scottish Standard Bearer"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=789SkK7uwiY

http://scot.tk/

mahonvalley

Oh Lordy

THE GAA has been accused of inflicting an ancient curse on Ireland which has led to the collapse of the economy and the banks.


According to Billy McGuire, the self-proclaimed keeper of the Sovereign Seals and Harps of Ireland and head of the once-secretive Irish Republican Brotherhood (IRB), a new design for the All-Ireland medal which was quietly launched on September 4, 2008, replaced the original Celtic cross design with a "serpent"-inspired logo.


"We now have a symbol of the serpent. That represents darkness and evil -- that is not right. It is awful to give that on a medal to anyone. Every time throughout history the sovereign seal has been desecrated, plagues and terrible misfortune have always followed," says Mr McGuire, a Limerick landowner and descendant of Sam Maguire, who presented the All-Ireland football trophy to the GAA.

brianthebard

Don't vamp threads, especially ones like this! Mod.