Women's martial arts

LazyFecker

I have a female friend who asked me recently what would be the best martial art for her to take up. I wasnt so enthusiastic to suggest muay thai or bjj, because i dont think they are really suitable. It might be the right choice for some, but most girls these days arent really that interested in the sporting side of martial arts, or even martial arts at all, but just want to be able to defend themselves should some "angry man" decide to give them a few thumps, or worse.
Wing Chun was (legend has it anyway) created by a woman, with a strong inclination towards women's natural abilities and demeanour in mind, so i was kind of thinking of suggesting that.
Can anyone else suggest anything they might think is more appropriate?

Cheers

Doug Cartel

Muay Thai, BJJ and Judo are all good choices. Anything where the techniques are practised full on against a resisting opponent really.

If it's self defence she's after, it might be a good idea to do some kind of self defence course instead of, or in addition to, martial arts. It's a bit trickier to tell good SD from bad SD at a glance, but a good rule of thumb is that it should deal more with conflict resolution and staying out of danger, instead of just telling them all they need to do is poke eyes and knee balls, and they'll be grand.

MaeveD

If she wants to do a self defence course, our 6 week Reduce the Odds course starts tomorrow night at 8pm... you'll find loads more info here:

http://www.defendu.ie/womens-self-defence

....but if its a martial art she wants, I'd go with BJJ as the most practical for us girls imo.

Gorman

I've noticed a lot more females do judo compared to BJJ, why is that?

Roper

Agree with Maeve, girls and BJJ mix well!

Sid_Justice

Gorman wrote: »

I've noticed a lot more females do judo compared to BJJ, why is that?

there are also about 50 times (aka a lot) more men doing judo then bjj afaik

MaeveD

Gorman, maybe because theres less grappling on the ground with sweaty boys in judo because of the way the points are scored... going for the big throw.

From what we do, we've learned that a lot of women when attacked in a rape scenario, never get a chance to fight back on their feet... so its really good idea to learn how to fight back from the ground too.

Michael O Leary

LazyFecker wrote: »

Wing Chun was (legend has it anyway) created by a woman, with a strong inclination towards women's natural abilities and demeanour in mind, so i was kind of thinking of suggesting that.
Cheers

Wing Tsun in Blanchardstown. www.wingtsun-blanchardstown.ie

Wing Tsun in Finglas and Dublin City Centre. www.wingtsunireland.com

Gorman

Sid_Justice wrote: »

there are also about 50 times (aka a lot) more men doing judo then bjj afaik

that's true, but I was thinking more of the ratio in a class. Females just seem to be better represented in Judo, in my limited experiences that is, I haven't been to hundreds of club or anything

Boston

I think thats more to do with the face its a natural sport in a few countries where kids start young. Before puberty hits there's little difference between boys and girls in terms of physical ability, so they both genders and thrown into Judo.

Gorman

MaeveD wrote: »

Gorman, maybe because theres less grappling on the ground with sweaty boys in judo because of the way the points are scored... going for the big throw.

From what we do, we've learned that a lot of women when attacked in a rape scenario, never get a chance to fight back on their feet... so its really good idea to learn how to fight back from the ground too.

Maeve , do females who start bjj for rape prevention stick around long? I think all females I know who do judo or BJJ do it for entirely sporting reasons, maybe it is just the clubs I go to.

MaeveD

I don't know of any girls who started BJJ for rape prevention... we've had a few who started BJJ after doing our Reduce the Odds couse though.

deegs

A lot of girls enjoy kendo as there is 0% physical contact but you still get to give and take a beating

Boston

Gorman wrote: »

Maeve , do females who start bjj for rape prevention stick around long? I think all females I know who do judo or BJJ do it for entirely sporting reasons, maybe it is just the clubs I go to.

Thats kinda a bizarre question to ask. I mean, I know lots of people who take up martial arts for self defence reasons, I myself do Jujutsu separate to Judo for that reason, but specifically rape? I don't think many people think about specific threats like that.

That said, the gender equality society in trinity got someone in to do rape prevention classes with some of its members.

Bujinkan

My best advice after training for over 30 years in the martial arts is to tell your friend not to jump into any martial art in a hurry. Get her to do a list of all the clubs in her area and surrounding area. Then get her to go and watch a couple of classes at each club. Talk to the instructors and the students of the clubs to find out what they think about what they are doing. Compare then what seems right for her. All clubs, styles and instructors are different. It is well worth spending the time to do a little research. It could be something she does for the rest of her life, so its woth investing some time into it!

Marcus
www.dwyerdojo.com

MaeveD

deegs wrote: »

A lot of girls enjoy kendo as there is 0% physical contact but you still get to give and take a beating

I love kendo, it's great fun... wish I had the time to study it! We used to practice a bit with the shinai with no protection... not really that painful until the bamboo pinches ouch!

It's not good for someone seeking self defence though, as the shinai won't fit in her handbag


Boston, Ray and I did the rape prevention classes (Reduce the Odds program) and lectures (Avoidance through Awareness) in Trinity last year.

Baggio...

Going on any weekend course will give you some benefits... However, it's hard to say how much knowledge will be retained under duress if you don't continuously train.

So consistency in training is the key to any good self-protection plan (as well as good tactics and impact development). Brazilian Jiu Jitsu may not always be the best option. As a woman do you really want to grapple, or go to ground with a highly aggressive male (probably larger and possibly armed)? If anything you'd be better of at "hit and run" tactic (with some defensive skills involving grabs and holds, just as secondary back up options).

Arts like Boxing or Muai Thai are some great options. Then add some good "awareness" skills on top, and you'll definitely have a solid foundation.

Just my take....

MaeveD

As most know here, I'm really passionate about what I do, especially womens self defence...so sometimes I get annoyed at whats taught elsewhere and advice thats given:

If attacked, the most common worst postion for a woman in a rape or sexual assault scenario is with a bigger male attacker between her legs on the ground... this is fact! I think every woman would agree that it would be a good idea if they knew how to escape if all else failed and they end up in that position.

Of course, escape on your feet if you can, and if you get that option.

I think everyone forgets that the best self defence is not physical at all... its all about becoming more aware and not becoming the victim of an attack in the first place. I can give a woman enough verbal information to keep her safe in less than an hour. Of course just like physical techniques, mental techniques need practice....

My advice to the ladies would be, under no circumstances fight toe to toe with a guy, in most cases you'll lose even if you're trained. If you have to fight, learn how to fight back with techniques that have a high percentage of sucess for you as a female.

Don't do a martial art just for self defence, martial arts are mainly about winning a fight, self defence is about surviving an attack.
If the self defence course you want to enrol in doesn't cover the scenario of you ending up on the ground, put your money back in your pocket and find one that does.

Baggio...

MaeveD wrote: »

If the self defence course you want to enrol in doesn't cover the scenario of you ending up on the ground, put your money back in your pocket and find one that does.

I would whole heartedly agree with this... It is an aspect that has to be addressed, as it's very likely, for a women to be grabbed and the slammed to the floor. But I'd personally veer away form sporting type ground tactics.

MaeveD wrote: »

My advice to the ladies would be, under no circumstances fight toe to toe with a guy, in most cases you'll lose even if you're trained.

Again I'd agree... any form of striking (or whatever you do) is about trying to get a momentary gap in order for you to facilitate an escape (or keep attacking until you can create that momentary gap). Going toe to toe with anyone is never the ideal... and should be avoided at all costs where possible.

Best advise is "don't be there"... If you train your awareness skills (and know how to read the danger signs) you've got a much better chance of getting yourself away before anything even starts.

A great book for women (or anyone interested in self-protection) is the "The gift of fear" by Gavin De Becker. If your interested in awareness and honing/understanding your instincts this is a great guide.


Mellisa Soalt's stuff is always worth checking out for anyone interested.

http://www.dr-ruthless.com/

Niall Keane

O.P.



To me there seems to be two approaches to genuine self defence / martial arts and both work.

One is to reduce the overall practice paring it down to a specific area, or spend 90% of time on an area: e.g. BJJ and ground work, Boxing concentrating on the above the waist with punches etc. Many here might think boxing is no good for women, but being able to dance around someone, dodge and weave while throwing unexpected overhands and the like will certainly take the intent out of an attacker. Of course you'll need to practice A LOT to be able to pull it off.

Other arts will deal with more ranges often with an overall connecting strategy / philosophy. Savate, Kung Fu such as the Wing Tsun you mentioned. My own art is Tai Chi Chuan, and deals with kicking, punching, throwing, locks, chokes, pressure points, the straight sword, the sabre and the spear. So we practice throws to be fast and to remain standing and bounce away after the throw, so the same dynamic can be used whether the attacker is empty handed or carrying a weapon, we would explore how to tie up/ twist an opponent with his own weapon etc. These skills are also part of many other SE Asian MAs. Again the secret is PRACTICE.

So like other posters have advised, you should try out a few, and see what suits / clicks. Good Luck and enjoy, I first took up martial arts for self defence purposes but it has given me way more than that!

On a note of caution, the art of war is the art of deception...Sun Tzu. And more charlatans exist in the martial arts than in any other field I've had experience in. So...

Beware of those claiming to be capable after a short period time to produce competency, or that their techniques are too deadly to practice. Kung Fu classics state: "we cannot suddenly become expert" indeed kung fu means proficiency through time and effort. More so be aware of the excuse "well you're not training to fight international champions", martial arts- if they are to be pursued as a self defence system and not just a healthy hobby which is fine, should be taken seriously, Intent is as important as skill, to leave an excuse to fail is to plan to fail.

Beware of those that are restricted in their approach offering instruction in areas beyond their scope, this is a fear induced commercial trick to hold on to or gather students, once BJJ hit the scene suddenly everyone was doing ground fighting, where did they learn??? Also, on the other side, I've seen ring / sport arts known to criticise others for unrealism hold weekend seminars on weapon defence, where two hands were used to control the attackers weapon hand, anyone with weapon skill knows that this is taboo.

There are well known charlatans who teach police and military and trade on this for credibility, but when you realise that most police / army unarmed courses last 6-10 weeks, and that their competance is poor the fact that they have been deceived is understandable. (most gyms will tell you that it takes between 4-6 months to train someone to fight in full contact events, that does not mean becomming world champion) In 2001 I remember competing with the martial arts instructor of a Russian military academy based in St. Petersburg who toured war torn provences regularly. We in the Irish team thought to our selves that these guys were going to be tough, but I found out from a Danish friend that they (the Russians) were worried about us, expecting psychotic maniacs bread on decades of civil war. They weren't bad but we beat them in our various weight divisions. That was the last time I ever cared about reputations, belts and other myths.

Basically in the end for self defence purposes the onus is on you to be honest with yourself. For women, given the chances of a weight disadvantage this honesty is especially important.

dasmoose

Great post Maeve.

I've gotten a lot less militant about saying "x martial art is a waste of your time" and taken on more of a whatever makes you happy point of view, but I honestly think that in situations like this were people are actively saying "i will teach you how to defend yourself against an attack for €€€" then they don't get a free pass on making those claims.

I was helping QUB BJJ run a stand at the fresher's fair this year, and someone from the Students Union approached us and told me they were interested in running a self defence course for women. To fully appreciate the gravity of this you should understand that a series of sex attacks were committed in and around QUB and the student's union building last year (if memory serves shortly before i was approached at the affair a young woman had actually been raped at the main building).

I told her I was glad she had approached me about this and then said in no uncertain terms that asking a student club to run a self defence course was a very bad idea which would border on irresponsible. I do not agree with the attitude of "a little bit of training is better than nothing", particularly given that most of the clubs at QUB are of the "fight choreography" type rather than combat sports. I told her that plenty of clubs would be more than happy to take the union's money and have some female students do a 3 hour "grab my wrist" groin kick type course and then pay some lip service to avoiding dark alleyways and that would be it. I also said we would have no interest in running such a course either because while i believe that BJJ is the best martial art for a woman to study for defending herself, I completely agree with Maeve that common sense skills are 100x more important than actual fighting skills when it comes to staying safe - and as a sport we don't teach those, and as well as that it takes a significant amount of time - at least a few months - to develop real skill.

I feel that far too many instructors are all too happy to take money off women and give them a false sense of security that will only make them more likely to get in trouble. It's very easy when you've had a few drinks to think you're invincible, particularly when you've had some guy in a black belt telling you you can defend yourself by just poking an attacker in the eye.

And Baggio do tell why you'd "veer away from sportive type ground tactics"?

Baggio...

dasmoose wrote: »

And Baggio do tell why you'd "veer away from sportive type ground tactics"?

Well, personally I'll always go for blunt force trauma (where possible) I'm not going to actively seek the ground in any real situation. Sure, we'll try to deal with it if it happens (and we actively train on the ground because it's always a possibility).

Not really wishing to spend too much time on what I'd do, as were talking about women's self protection here...

Are you suggesting though, that a women should go for a choke, hold, submission or armbar? Also, what level of training are we talking about here?

Could you tell me your approach (form your sporting background & also from a women's perspective) the best way to deal with a large male, who is possibly armed, and with real intent to do you harm. Do you think that taking a large male to the ground is the best strategy? I can understand if you've been slammed there, and have no choice but to fight from that position. But brining someone down, especially if you object is to escape is surely putting yourself in bad position to do so.

One other thing that's worth mentioning here is the whole psychological issue. Facing someone in a ring is pretty daunting at the best of times (regardless of sex). However a women, facing off against a large male attacker who wants to do, god knows what, is at a completely different level of of anxiety (or fear). Also, the male attacker will try his best to ambush the subject, as this yields a higher probability of success. So not only are you dealing with a different threat level (and possible weapon involvement too) you dealing with the whole issue of "surprise" as well. If you are training in a sporting sense will your skills automatically translate if such an event occurs? Will you have time to regain the initiative after being hit from behind multiple times?

I'm not saying that there are any guarantees out there (there's not - plain and simple)... but it's another set of variables that need to be addressed if you want to train for any kind of self-protection.

Doug Cartel

That's a bit of a straw man you've brought in there Baggio. None of the BJJ/sports people suggested taking the guy to the ground, and Maeve specifically said never to go toe to toe with an assailant.

Baggio...

Doug Cartel wrote: »

That's a bit of a straw man you've brought in there Baggio. None of the BJJ/sports people suggested taking the guy to the ground, and Maeve specifically said never to go toe to toe with an assailant.

I take your point...

I understand what Maeve is saying, and I agree with the majority of what she has said so far. In fact, you'll notice in my previous post I agreed with her on "going toe to toe"..

I'm just trying to address dasmoose's comment about me wanting to avoid sportive ground work.

dasmoose

I'd be interested to know how you propose a 55kg woman could generate enough "blunt force trauma" to KO a 90kg man?

I wouldn't advise going to the ground in a street situation unless you know your attacker is on their own and you can't get away.

And yes, if a woman is taken down and can't get up to run away, absolutely she should work to disable her attacker. Why not?

As i said above in terms of level of training I would say that anything less than 6 months in a solid combat sport is just giving a false sense of security. Realistically a woman is going to have a very bad chance against a much larger stronger attacker unless she has a big skill advantage. That's just reality.

A large male who is possibly armed and intends to do damage? Run away. If you can't run away? You're probably going to get stabbed if you can't talk your way out of it. I believe Karl Tanswell's STAB program is probably the best idea for a situation like this. You know what's not going to help? X blocks and wrist locks you've only ever practised against an unresisting opponent.

If he's not armed, but you can't get away? Why the hell not take him down, choke him unconscious or break his arm or leg then run away when he's not able to follow you?

Let's be realistic here, against someone who is much bigger and stronger than you ending up on the ground is almost inevitable, whether because they take you down or because they hit you and you fall.

I'm not a woman but i do have the experience of fighting people much bigger than me. A 110kg former ulster squad rugby player was training with us for a while and let me tell you there was no way i was stopping someone that strong from taking me down. But i was able to armbar him over and over again because BJJ training has given me those skills.

dasmoose

Just saw your edit about the psychological aspect of things.

Sure, fighting in a ring isn't quite the same as being attacked on the street. The problem is there isn't a better alternative. People often like to go on about MMA having rules but often forget that there's still an awful lot of things that someone can do to you within those rules and is actively trying to do. I haven't had the opportunity to fight myself yet but i'm pretty sure JK is on record as saying that he found the anxiety felt getting into fights when working the door was very much the same as when he fought in a cage, and anyone else i've talked to has confirmed this. I've worked several guys' corners when they've fought, both of them very good friends of mine and you can see the nerves and self doubt manifesting itself hours before the fight.

Will you have time to regain the initiative after being hit from behind multiple times?

Well, no? In all likelihood you won't. And I'm not claiming that, so I don't really know why you're bringing it up. It reminds me of when I was studying martial arts and fellow schoolkids would go "yeah but what would you do if i had a gun?"

Answer? "I'd get shot."

It's a very common tactic for people to argue that BJJ won't work against 10 guys armed with machetes when the floor is covered in broken glass and used needles. I'd like to see the martial art that can. I'm more interested in what can help you survive in situations that are actually winnable.

Baggio...

dasmoose wrote: »

I'd be interested to know how you propose a 55kg woman could generate enough "blunt force trauma" to KO a 90kg man?

Now you've got it wrong there... look back at my post and see what I said, I was quite specific. BFT that's what I would do in a real situation.

dasmoose wrote: »

I wouldn't advise going to the ground in a street situation unless you know your attacker is on their own and you can't get away (although you may have to fight tooth and nail)

.

Agree... (it's only if you have no other choice).

dasmoose wrote: »

Why the hell not take him down, choke him unconscious or break his arm or leg then run away when he's not able to follow you?

Easier said than done if you are a terrified woman (even with some training).

dasmoose wrote: »

Let's be realistic here, against someone who is much bigger and stronger than you ending up on the ground is almost inevitable, whether because they take you down or because they hit you and you fall.

It's always a possibility... depends how quickly you act initially. Remember though, your looking to create a momentary gap so you can get the hell out of dodge (although you may well have to have to fight tooth and nail to get it).

dasmoose wrote: »

I'm not a woman but i do have the experience of fighting people much bigger than me. A 110kg former ulster squad rugby player was training with us for a while and let me tell you there was no way i was stopping someone that strong from taking me down. But i was able to armbar him over and over again because BJJ training has given me those skills.

Could you have done the same thing if he was going to fight you for real? I mean, if it was outside the dojo and he wanted to smash you to pieces? If so, then you've not much to worry about in fairness. Again, it's not what you or I would do per se... it's about self-protection for a women.

Baggio...

dasmoose wrote: »

It's a very common tactic for people to argue that BJJ won't work against 10 guys armed with machetes when the floor is covered in broken glass and used needles. I'd like to see the martial art that can. I'm more interested in what can help you survive in situations that are actually winnable.

Your reading it wrong here mate... I'm not saying that MMA or BJJ wont work in the street - although I don't think the ground is the best option (personally). I'm merely pointing out the way attacks can happen (ie - from an ambush, or when conditions least favor you). And I totally agree with Maeve's point on the issue of awareness training. So hopefully you wont ever find yourself in any such situation, and if you do (god forbid) you may be able to get a little initiative in order to do something that will get you out of a jam (regardless of "art")..

As I've said... there are no guarantees in any "Martial Art".... What happens if I'm hit in the back of the head repeatedly? Well... like everyone else I'll probably get knocked out.

Doug Cartel

Baggio... wrote: »

I'm just trying to address dasmoose's comment about me wanting to avoid sportive ground work.

What kind of ground work would you suggest instead?

Baggio...

Doug Cartel wrote: »

What kind of ground work would you suggest instead?

Hmm... Rather than get into another protracted debate (as it just goes round and round in circles) I'll simply leave you with a concept.

For the street... take whatever ground work you do (whatever that may be MMA/BJJ, etc.) and simply add to it any tactics, or strikes that are baned from the ring (should you be unable to avoid an altercation).

So now you have the best of both worlds

MaeveD

It was a miracle that Brad Parker from Defend University in Phoenix was able to develop this course... he spent 7 years listening to what actually worked for women, and used the techniques that worked best for them.
You guys just seem to argue, and it come down to the same arguments every time.

Thankfully its quite rare in this country for a woman to be raped by an attacker with a weapon, we train the most common scenarios so just do a basic knife block for when they cant escape and one basic knife technique... any more would be a total waste of time.

Gracie Jiu Jitsu is self defence based.... and not sport based, originally designed for a smaller person against a bigger one. BJJ is a great way of getting used to working from the ground, hence as a female if you end up on the ground in an attack situation... you've been there before so its not as alien.

Physically a woman has to do just enough damage to create the time and space to escape the situation, nothing more. Any serious damage they do is a brucie bonus. I have seen 40 kilo girls kick Ray across the room if the full body armour suit, I can bruise his ribs through a FIST suit... amazing what you can do with a little practice

Baggio, I read one article on that site and shook my head in dismay.... biting balls, come on!? I hate that crap, and she's so close to the guys in those pics, she'd be kod straight away... maybe theres some good stuff in there somewhere, I'll have a look when I've more time, but it looks like womens empowerment rubbish.

For some fantastic down to earth no bull**** info have a look at Brad Parkers site rapeescape.com/articles.htm

Baggio...

MaeveD wrote: »

and she's so close to the guys in those pics, she'd be kod straight away... maybe theres some good stuff in there somewhere, I'll have a look when I've more time, but it looks like womens empowerment rubbish.

But as you said yourself it's not about going "toe to toe" with the guy. As for them being" too close". You don't always have a choice - the attacker will close that distance in a blink (regardless if you have your hands up or not). What she's actually doing is feigning compliance in order to get an opportunity before she strikes.

Were working form "worse case scenario here", the "would be" attacker will try to get close to you, he has to in order to do what he wants to do. If you think you'll be able to dictate the range against a large male who is determined (or any large opponent for that matter) for any length of time. Well... I personally don't see it happening - unless your going to strike pre-emptively from a fence.

I agree with your stance on awareness training, and not ever going "toe to toe", but we'll have to agree to disagree on the rest I'm afraid.

MaeveD wrote: »

I'll have a look when I've more time, but it looks like womens empowerment rubbish.

Call it what you like... Empowerment, mindset, attitude or whatever. People have been defending themselves with little more than the "right mindset" for thousands of years. If your mind is right, you'll have a chance - if it's not you wont. The only survivor of the Boston strangler was a women who bit him on the finger, he then ran away. Why? He was ex-army and by all accounts a very capable individual. When asked later, why he did not kill that woman, he said he just panicked and ran because he did not want to get caught (the others were not so lucky). She created that "momentary gap" with no training whatsoever.

Add some training to the equation, and a good awareness base, and your probability fir success will definitely increase. As I said earlier there are no guarantees of any kind.

MaeveD

You misunderstood, as I probably wasn't as clear as I could have been... pre emptive strikes are great... but she is really close to a guy whos not doing anything really and that not real. He's most likely going to hit her, grab her hair or clothes... or drag her somewhere. I hate sites that are full of scare tactics and nasty stories to try and get people to sign up. Like I said I didn't get to look at it too much.

Rape is a crime of power and not normally not just about the sex, its about domination and having complete control over someone. If the idea of what they want to happen is ruined, by fear of being discovered or if they themselves get hurt, there is a good chance that they will break off the attack and go find an easier target.

I really dislike the way some US sites talk about empowerment, like just on the homepage: learn how to be fearsome not fearful, becaome a dangerous creature, turn on your ancient powers, deadly dames, savage skills... all US marketing crap.
I also don't like the biting the arm thing, infuriates them into striking... think about what you'd do if someone bit you, you'd box the head off them. Biting is a last resort to get a reaction to get space to escape, I also don't like the kicking him in the head when he's on the ground, she should be gone.

Baggio...

MaeveD wrote: »

He's most likely going to hit her, grab her hair or clothes... or drag her somewhere. I hate sites that are full of scare tactics and nasty stories to try and get people to sign up. Like I said I didn't get to look at it too much.

I see what you are saying - but she does address pretty much most of the common attacks - you only really get a snippet on her web site, you have to buy the DVDs (and she also pressure tests her stuff as well which is cool).

MaeveD wrote: »

I also don't like the biting the arm thing, infuriates them into striking... think about what you'd do if someone bit you, you'd box the head off them. Biting is a last resort to get a reaction to get space to escape

A lot of people misunderstand about certain tactics like biting and gouging (as you said they are last resort stuff). If someone bit/gouged me I'd be very pissed off as you said, and I'd definitely get riled and start pounding (although, I might flinch for a brief moment). However, you got to look at them as a "momentary option" only. If you have a small person who cannot generate impact (or someone with no training) then this stuff may be the only tactics you've got if your awareness fails, and you get grabbed or ambushed.

You've also got to look at the problem. A potential attacker does not want any attention, and does not want to get caught, and finally he does not want to get injured. So as a woman you probably (note I said probably) wont have to knock out the attacker per se. If you kick, scream, punch, bite or do whatever it takes to get away, or even get attention the the attacker may flee, as in the case of the Boston strangler. Is it a guarantee? Unfortunately not there are so many variables... who knows you may have to do. But if you do something then at least you have a chance.

MaeveD wrote: »

I also don't like the kicking him in the head when he's on the ground, she should be gone.

Yes I totally agree (as you could get pulled down)... evacuate when you can asap.

Dave Joyce

I'd be interested to know how you propose a 55kg woman could generate enough "blunt force trauma" to KO a 90kg man?

With some training it wouldn't be that difficult eg http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XAx5cLTJ3Ek&feature=related Smaller woman KO'ing a bigger man.

However, I find it interesting that its very difficult for you to think the above BUT they could

Why the hell not take him down, choke him unconscious or break his arm or leg then run away when he's not able to follow you?

I think a lot of people are skipping over what Baggio said about mindset. While I would think learning the ability to fight and escape on the ground is VITAL, training it as the first place to work from is mentally accepting it will inevitably start ON THE GROUND. That is very defeatist in attitude, cover that area WELL in the training but concentrate on staying on the feet with the possibility of a quick exit.

Finally, a lot of muggers with robbery as their main motive have prefected sucker punches with deception to get what they want ie looking for the time/directions etc and once they distract the victim BAM, lights out. This is the ideal tactic to actually deploy against an attacker eg employ deception/distraction and pop them a shot.

Dave Joyce

Sure, fighting in a ring isn't quite the same as being attacked on the street. The problem is there isn't a better alternative. People often like to go on about MMA having rules but often forget that there's still an awful lot of things that someone can do to you within those rules and is actively trying to do. I haven't had the opportunity to fight myself yet but i'm pretty sure JK is on record as saying that he found the anxiety felt getting into fights when working the door was very much the same as when he fought in a cage, and anyone else i've talked to has confirmed this. I've worked several guys' corners when they've fought, both of them very good friends of mine and you can see the nerves and self doubt manifesting itself hours before the fight.

Forgot to take issue with you on this and with respect to JK, I am NOT attempting to take a pop at him in anyway. However, as someone who has fought in the cage, ring and took part in no armour stick fights AS WELL as working the door (where you have back up and the law is NORMALLY going to support you), the type of anxiety you feel in a confrontation on the street is VERY different.

Sid_Justice

the type of anxiety you feel in a confrontation on the street is VERY different.

Is that just your opinion Dave or would you say most of the people with both types of experience would agree with you?

I actually don't even know you can make that statement. There are so many different types of confrontation on the street. Like, are you talking about a guy beeping his horn at you when you absentmindly walk in front of his car? Or what about when some junkie starts hassling you for change? Or what happens when some scumbag tries to mug you for your ipod? Or what happens when you've had a bit too much to drink and so has the guy behind you in the queue for the chipper and he starts pushing you? Or when some takes a gun out and threatens to shoot you? There's about 5 completely different confrontations.

Baggio, you got away with saying "sportive grappling" or something without explaining it. I would suspect you have a very vague idea what actually happens in a grappling club (bjj,sw,judo) and should refrain from making those generalizations. You imply that sports bjj people who for god knows what reason, find themselves on the ground in a street fight are going to start doing some mad low percentage shinja aoki stuff for fun. Really don't think that's realistic.

Like it's all well and good that saying MMA sparring/fighting adrenaline doesn't taste the same as street confrontation but what do the RBSD/Combatives guy do instead? Sneak up on their students? Surprise attack them? Actually try and set up a scenario to scare or intimidate them?

Dyr

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Baggio...

Sid_Justice wrote: »

Baggio, you got away with saying "sportive grappling" or something without explaining it. I would suspect you have a very vague idea what actually happens in a grappling club (bjj,sw,judo) and should refrain from making those generalizations. You imply that sports bjj people who for god knows what reason, find themselves on the ground in a street fight are going to start doing some mad low percentage shinja aoki stuff for fun. Really don't think that's realistic.

Not trying to be smart with you Sid, and perhaps my wording was poor by me useing the term "sportive". But I'll have to quote myself from earlier... to to explain my position again.

Baggio... wrote: »

I'm not saying that MMA or BJJ wont work in the street - although I don't think the ground is the best option (personally). I'm merely pointing out the way attacks can happen (ie - from an ambush, or when conditions least favor you).

You may not agree with me (which is fair enough) but I've explained my reasons. Not point in covering it again really.

Sid_Justice wrote: »

but what do the RBSD/Combatives guy do instead? Sneak up on their students? Surprise attack them? Actually try and set up a scenario to scare or intimidate them?

I leave thins one to someone else... Or this will go round and round....


To continue, I never said that BJJ people used "low percentage" stuff. I said I don't want to go to the ground, personally don't think it the best place to go. If you do, well good on ya' - far be it from me to tell you otherwise.

Sid_Justice

I like the way you say I'm making this whole argument circular when you're the one saying stuff about "if you want to go to the ground go to the ground".

And what does blunt head trauma mean? hitting someone in the head?

LazyFecker

Just wanted to say thanks to all the people that contributed to the thread, and especially those who attempted to answer the original posting. I showed it to my friend, and it gave her food for thought.

However, if anyone else has any more suggestions they are still most welcome.

Cheers lads

Dave Joyce

Is that just your opinion Dave or would you say most of the people with both types of experience would agree with you?

Hmm, I was wondering if this was you been smart (and I may of course be wrong but) and after reading the next paragraph, I'm tended to believe you are. Because of this possibility, I'm tempted to be just as much a smart ass but I'll resist....for now. However, if you want me to go through each and every one of those situations you describe, forget it as I'm not going to bore everyone else to tears and go so far off topic. Now seeing as I gave my experience I'm very interested in yours???

Sid_Justice

Dave Joyce wrote: »

Hmm, I was wondering if this was you been smart (and I may of course be wrong but)

It was a fairly straight forward and simple question Dave. You're a Muay Thai coach yes? So you've had students who've fought in competitions? Do they tell you the same thing? Pre-fight jitters are nothing like pre-fistycuff jitters? Pre-getting mugged jitters? Or is that your own personal experience.

I've never fought in a cage, I've had a few amateur boxing bouts but all at a the lowest level. I've never worked as a Bouncer or being mugged.

My point wasn't - I do a bit of MMA training now and again, and if someone pulls a knife or a gun on me I'd be cool as a cucumber and just disarm them.

My point was - you made a generalisied and ambigious statement and I was investigating its merits.

I would say having some scum bag pull a knife on you would be very scary. Going into the cage to fight would be significantly less scary. Having some dope try and fight with you in a pub would be some where in between. Just my opinion.

Boston

In most knife attacks, the victim doesn't see the knife until its all over. Fear isn't really a factor, best to assume a weapon is present and act accordingly.

Sid_Justice

Well that's the thing isn't it. presumably if someone was intent on stabbing you, like in a prison or something, they'd walk up behind you and stab you in the back or by some other suprise mechanism.

if someone was going to 'pull a knife on you' it would be to intimidate you into complying with them (robbery, sexual assault etc., simply intimidation).

Burnt

FWIW I've been jumped a few times while out and about, thankfully on each ocassion the attackers were unarmed.

The attacks were random, unprovoked and; in all but on instance, a complete supprise. The lack of knowing what is about to happen prevented
the build up of nerves like you have before an organised fight. I'm not inclined so much to paranoia, and don't wander round like nervous rabbit.

At the time I felt little or nothing, most of the feelings or emotions came after the event; when there is still tonnes of adrenilin floating around
your body, when there was lots of anger etc.., fear seemed to come much later. Memories of the events remain very clear but seem slightly detatched or external from myself.

In one incidence my friend who was accompanying me fought very well and in a controlled fashion durning the attack, afterwards he was very
angry and then went into pretty severe shock and was quite confussed; he had never been attack before and it seemed too upset him alot.

Boston

Sid_Justice wrote: »

Well that's the thing isn't it. presumably if someone was intent on stabbing you, like in a prison or something, they'd walk up behind you and stab you in the back or by some other suprise mechanism.

if someone was going to 'pull a knife on you' it would be to intimidate you into complying with them (robbery, sexual assault etc., simply intimidation).

I think you're underselling things. People with knifes don't pull them unless the intent is to use them. Most stabbing are as part of some physical confrontation, as in you're fighting someone and during the fight a knife is pulled and used. Reason example being the 24 year old ex solider stabbed to death in killester last weekend. Started as a fight then escalated. Fear doesn't really come into it at that stage.

Burnt wrote: »

FWIW I've been jumped a few times while out and about, thankfully on each ocassion the attackers were unarmed.

The attacks were random, unprovoked and; in all but on instance, a complete supprise. The lack of knowing what is about to happen prevented
the build up of nerves like you have before an organised fight. I'm not inclined so much to paranoia, and don't wander round like nervous rabbit.

At the time I felt little or nothing, most of the feelings or emotions came after the event; when there is still tonnes of adrenilin floating around
your body, when there was lots of anger etc.., fear seemed to come much later. Memories of the events remain very clear but seem slightly detatched or external from myself.

In one incidence my friend who was accompanying me fought very well and in a controlled fashion durning the attack, afterwards he was very
angry and then went into pretty severe shock and was quite confussed; he had never been attack before and it seemed too upset him alot.

Yea, thats pretty much how it goes.

Dave Joyce

Or is that your own personal experience.

Yes and TBH maybe its after all the head shots but I didn't find the question that straightforward. I never really suffered that bad with pre fight nerves in any of the events I fought in and pretty much similar on the door whenever something was gonna kick off BUT on the very FEW occasions I encountered violence on the street (have never been mugged) it was a TOTALLY different kind/type of anxiety.

Dave Joyce

Or is that your own personal experience.

Yes and TBH maybe its after all the head shots but I didn't find the question that straightforward. I never really suffered that bad with pre fight nerves in any of the events I fought in and pretty much similar on the door whenever something was gonna kick off BUT on the very FEW occasions I encountered violence on the street (have never been mugged) it was a TOTALLY different kind/type of anxiety.

Wild Geese Judo

Is it the recession or close contact with sweaty men that is keeping women away from Martial Arts? Since my lovely daughters have moved out of the country we have had too few of the fairer sex on the judo mat at our City Centre Premises. Wild Geese Judo are offering (or challenging) free judo for the month of June 2011 for women; whether experienced or beginners.
Let's see a few new faces soon!

arybvtcw0eolkf

Wild Geese Judo wrote: »

Is it the recession or close contact with sweaty men that is keeping women away from Martial Arts? Since my lovely daughters have moved out of the country we have had too few of the fairer sex on the judo mat at our City Centre Premises. Wild Geese Judo are offering (or challenging) free judo for the month of June 2011 for women; whether experienced or beginners.
Let's see a few new faces soon!

Anyone, male or female, thinking of trying some Judo won't go wrong with Wild Geese Judo.

Donal Tannam, the coach there teach's some lovely Judo - an absolute gent and very successful competitor.

For a month of free Judo classes for females I might be tempted to don the blonde wig & stillettoes for the month :pac: