"This is a work experience programme and does not offer a salary"

NothingMan

Mediocrity wrote: »

It's a slippery slope. If young people accept this kind of exploitation, then what else will they take up the ass? Frankly, the PAYE worker would be better off if these so-called bright young people fecked off elsewhere. Somewhere like India or Pakistan where they can work for free to their heart's content. The ordinary decent worker is better off without them.

As I said before, it's amazing what the aspirational classes will subject themselves to in order to keep up appearances.

So a "so called bright young person" drawing job seekers allowance, which is for job placement & training, takes up an offer of placement & training, they are now in the "aspirational class"? And in no way may just be taking the position because they would like to become a "PAYE worker" or "Ordinary decent worker"?

You throw a lot of buzzwords out there, but you don't seem to define them very well or use them in an understandable context. Are you in management?

oscarBravo

You've avoided some direct and simple questions, Mediocrity.

Mediocrity

oscarBravo wrote: »

As an employer, I know which I'd rather see.

What's the average salary in your organisation? Do you employ people full-time or do you use contract staff?

oscarBravo

Mediocrity wrote: »

What's the average salary in your organisation?

With respect, that's none of your business.

Do you employ people full-time or do you use contract staff?

Full- and part-time.

You still haven't answered the questions.

Mediocrity

oscarBravo wrote: »

With respect, that's none of your business.

As an employer, I'm sure you'd offer your expertise for free. For the country like. Shoulder to the wheel and all that.

oscarBravo

Mediocrity wrote: »

As an employer, I'm sure you'd offer your expertise for free. For the country like. Shoulder to the wheel and all that.

...and, yet again, you've refused to answer the questions. I guess I'll just have to draw my own conclusions.

NothingMan

Mediocrity wrote: »

As an employer, I'm sure you'd offer your expertise for free. For the country like. Shoulder to the wheel and all that.

I don't know if you just choose to ignore everyone elses logical arguments or if you just don't get it. Maybe you're just a troll and I should ignore you, but on the off chance you're serious, I don't think any company would want you, free or not, so you've nothing to worry about.

Mediocrity

NothingMan wrote: »

I don't know if you just choose to ignore everyone elses logical arguments or if you just don't get it. Maybe you're just a troll and I should ignore you, but on the off chance you're serious, I don't think any company would want you, free or not, so you've nothing to worry about.

Another €200/week volunteer. :pac:

You even get to work in a big glass office building and wear a shirt and tie.

NothingMan

Mediocrity wrote: »

Another €200/week volunteer. :pac:

You even get to work in a big glass office building and wear a shirt and tie.

If I was unemplyed and didn't have my 4 years IT experience then i'd seriously consider it, especially if I was applying for jobs that required 6 months experience.

Unfortunately my office is mostly brick not glass, and I don't wear a tie, but I appreciate your assumptions about everyone. They're nothing if not mildly amusing.

Mediocrity

oscarBravo wrote: »

What do you think they should do instead? Sit at home on the dole?

Are you that narrow-minded that you wouldn't know what to do with yourself during the day time?

You are being very wily by presenting an either/or situation.

oscarBravo wrote: »

Which do you think would look better on their CV?

My CV is in great shape thank you very much. (not that I'm so shallow as to live my live according to how it would affect my CV). Word of mouth recommendations is by far the best way of securing a job. Posting in a CV to some random company and hoping that someone in the HR department will read it is a sure-fire way of landing yourself a position as a drone: i.e. a parasitic functionary who is no different to the server in the corner that costs €30,000 a year to run.

Gurgle

This is essentially a 6-month interview process.

If you're good enough, you get a job out of it. If not, you're back on the dole with 6 months experience on your CV.

Either way its win-win.

Besides, theres nothing to stop you job hunting while on the program.

Sleepy

I have to admit, I'd be tempted by something like this if it were in a different area (e.g. open source or development) to my main experience (almost 7 years) but with a family to support, it's not really an option.

jmayo

Mediocrity wrote: »

http://jobbank.fas.ie/servlet/Watis?SESS=25743_14&SERVICE=CRITERIUMBROWSE&TEMPLATE=WWW_JS_VAC_CRITERIUM_BROWSE.HTM&ROW=22&BACK=TEMPLATE%3DWWW_JS_VAC_CRITERIUM_OVERVIEW.HTM
(click 'next' for more such examples)

Now we all "have to start somewhere", but this is taking the piss surely? Highly qualified people expected to give their services for free? Humiliating is the word.

I seriously doubt the people working for FAS started their careers in public administration in such circumstances.

Puts the air traffic controllers dispute over "new technology" into perspective.

Back in the bad old days of the 80s or early 90s people sometimes did this, because get it, there weren't jobs out there and even though people had degress, dimplomas, etc they did not have actaul relevent work experience.

In fact one of the state technology agencies (can't remember the name Eolas maybe) ran a program where they helped companies employ engineers, etc by helping pay the 10,000 punds a year salary.
At time a normal starting salary might be around 12,000/13,000.

Now we are back to those old days again.
We no longer live in 2000 when IT graduates with half assed qualifications and no experience could sail into a job, act the maggot for a few months (or even weeks) and decide to jump to another job with the help of those leeching recruitment agencies.
Neither are we in 2007 when there was loads of jobs in retial/construciton and ancillairy services or one could decide to go off and work on a site for more money than a professional could get.

I think OP may be one of our younger generation who are going to have to get used to the new reality where jobs are scare and something to hold onto, where cars, holidays, gap years travelling are no longer easily accessible through cheap loans.

I would say if the experience is going to be good i.e. good company offering valuable skills with good prospects, then people should take it.
Trust me the alternative is probably much worse long term.

Oh and if you think emigrating is the solution, remember foreigners also like people with experience rather than those that sat around because they felt jobs were beneath them.

BTW if you did have your CV pushed my direction by a friend, relative, etc (using the good old Irish it's who know rather than what you know mentality) I would find your attitude on this a turnoff.

douglashyde

Mediocrity wrote: »

Ah yes, attitudes such as this only add to the social stigma of being unemployed. Actually, I'm writing a paper at the moment. What are you doing?

Believe it or not - im in third year of college. The damn college wont pay me thought.

And what are you doing writing a bloody paper - your on JSA - go find a job.

Your only problem mediocrity is that your to damn lazy to do job experience work and not get paid. People like you are what’s wrong with Ireland. Your deluded imagination seems to think that you one day will be successful – that’s never going to happen.

We see the news and all we hear about is about this countries state of finance, in 2008 2.1 billion was spent on Job Seekers Benefit alone.

You also realise that if a welfare officer where to find you out – that your payments would be cut.

oscarBravo

Let's not get personal, folks.

Mediocrity

douglashyde wrote: »

Believe it or not - im in third year of college. The damn college wont pay me thought.

And what are you doing writing a bloody paper - your on JSA - go find a job.

Your only problem mediocrity is that your to damn lazy to do job experience work and not get paid. People like you are what’s wrong with Ireland. Your deluded imagination seems to think that you one day will be successful – that’s never going to happen.

We see the news and all we hear about is about this countries state of finance, in 2008 2.1 billion was spent on Job Seekers Benefit alone.

You also realise that if a welfare officer where to find you out – that your payments would be cut.

I have a job. Do you? And I don't need someone studying for a degree in "Marketing, Innovation and Technology" in one of the world's lesser-known institutions to give me lessons on life.

You never know, when you finally earn your academic hood, you might be lucky enough to walk into a job that pays you €204 per week minus bus fare. I thought younger people aspired to greater things. But then again, they're probably too busy looking for the latest hits to upload onto their iPods or modifying their Facebook status to worry about things like the "race to the bottom" and the erosion of PAYE workers' terms and conditions.

Mediocrity

jmayo wrote: »

In fact one of the state technology agencies (can't remember the name Eolas maybe) ran a program where they helped companies employ engineers, etc by helping pay the 10,000 punds a year salary.
At time a normal starting salary might be around 12,000/13,000.

What's the "nominal" starting salary for an engineer at the moment do you think?

€200 a week is very different from an engineer's salary times 10/12 or 10/13.

west101

oscarBravo wrote: »

What should the government have done instead?

I think a 196 euro a week grant towards the persons wages for six months would be a better solution.

Scofflaw

Mediocrity wrote: »

I have a job. Do you? And I don't need someone studying for a degree in "Marketing, Innovation and Technology" in one of the world's lesser-known institutions to give me lessons on life.

You never know, when you finally earn your academic hood, you might be lucky enough to walk into a job that pays you €204 per week minus bus fare. I thought younger people aspired to greater things. But then again, they're probably too busy looking for the latest hits to upload onto their iPods or modifying their Facebook status to worry about things like the "race to the bottom" and the erosion of PAYE workers' terms and conditions.

I'm going to suggest you take some of your own advice here, and I'll add some extra - be polite to other posters, stop personalising the discussion, don't dismiss everyone else's point of view.

Or you can keep it up and be banned, which will free up what is presumably work time for you - a win-win, really.

moderately,
Scofflaw

witchgirl26

I honestly don't see the problem with this. My cousin in America is currently working as an intern for free. He doesn't do full time as they tried to take on a lot of interns so he does half week there & works the other half in his old college. Means he'll have the experience required to get a proper job when he finishes.

Plus on this you can get paid your JSA so what are you losing out on? In fact you could end up with a job at the end of it if you actually bother yourself to put in a bit of effort. I know a few people who are out of work who would love the opportunity to do something with their days that might help them get a job.

Oh and I don't believe the whole "if you start as a pushover..." stuff. Everyone has to start somewhere in work & for most of us that's the bottom of the ladder & you work your way up.

LoLth

From a personal point of view I see nothing wrong with internships or the whole work for free to get experience idea.

When I left college I had no measurable experience and could not get a job. I even offered to work for free but companies were having none of it. I ended up volunteering in the local Credit Union to pass the time and to not get bored. 6 months later I was on the board of management and a motnh after that I was gainfully employed with my initiative to undertake voluntary work and a reference from my supervisor in the Credit Union as the main reason for taking me on over the dozens of other applicants.

ronbyrne2005

witchgirl26 wrote: »

I honestly don't see the problem with this. My cousin in America is currently working as an intern for free. He doesn't do full time as they tried to take on a lot of interns so he does half week there & works the other half in his old college. Means he'll have the experience required to get a proper job when he finishes.

Plus on this you can get paid your JSA so what are you losing out on? In fact you could end up with a job at the end of it if you actually bother yourself to put in a bit of effort. I know a few people who are out of work who would love the opportunity to do something with their days that might help them get a job.

Oh and I don't believe the whole "if you start as a pushover..." stuff. Everyone has to start somewhere in work & for most of us that's the bottom of the ladder & you work your way up.

The value of all work experience is not the same. Doing internship in a highly specialised or prestigous area is obviously a lot more valuable than being genral dogsbody in a small low profile firm/organisation.

witchgirl26

ronbyrne2005 wrote: »

The value of all work experience is not the same. Doing internship in a highly specialised or prestigous area is obviously a lot more valuable than being genral dogsbody in a small low profile firm/organisation.

I know that. Yes my cousin is in a great company but he is a general dogsbody - he gets to sit in on meetings but has to make the coffees & do anything else. Still he's greatful that at the end of it he can put that he worked there for 6 months & if he makes a good impression then he could get a job.

Surely we should be helping the small low profile firms/organisations who need to stay afloat & want to hire the best person so decide that an unpaid internship is the best way to see who is the best fit for the company. It's providing an opportunity for people to get a job.

I haven't been able to read the link posted in the first post as it's not loading right on my computer, I'd like to point out. My comments are more in the general sense.

tomED

I think it's very fair to work for six months while drawing the dole.

I started off this way and I learned a lot. I also felt that I wasn't screwin the scrounging off the state. At least I had dignity to at least contribute in some way rather than sitting on my arse all day and not having a future.

I can see why people have an issue with this, but those of us who have gone through the days of there being no work out there, understand just how valuable a 6 month internship working for free can be.

If the sky fell out for me today, I would consider a postion like this in an instant. Of course, I'd be constantly looking for other work on the side too. An employer that recognises that you are looking for work on the side, won't mind giving you the time off for interviews etc.

Mediocrity

Funny how lots of people here think working for free is a great idea for everyone else but themselves.

tomED

Mediocrity wrote: »

Funny how lots of people here think working for free is a great idea for everyone else but themselves.

Did you not read my post? I said I've done it myself in the past and would happily do it again if I found myself on the dole.

witchgirl26

Mediocrity wrote: »

Funny how lots of people here think working for free is a great idea for everyone else but themselves.

I would do this if I didn't already have a job. I was lucky to get into the training contract I did but if I was back just out of college & needed the experience to get a job then I would be quite happy working for free and getting the JSA.

Thoie

I'd consider working "for free" (if you exclude the JSA and other state benefits you'll be getting) to be similar to paying university fees, going to college, paying for rent, books, clothes. Gaining practical experience and studying in 3rd level are both an investment in your future. Neither lend themselves to rolling around on giant piles of cash while you're doing it, but both offer that as a possibility further down the line.

dsmythy

Mediocrity wrote: »

If you start your career as a pushover, you'll end it as a pushover.

Yeah, and the 6 month gap jobseeker will continue to be a pushover in 6-12 months while people who took on an experience opportunity get each job over them time and time again. Going by your own idea then the people taking the 6 months experience will be the ones doing the 'pushing over'.

Mediocrity

dsmythy wrote: »

Yeah, and the 6 month gap jobseeker will continue to be a pushover in 6-12 months while people who took on an experience opportunity get each job over them time and time again. Going by your own idea then the people taking the 6 months experience will be the ones doing the 'pushing over'.

Surely you could find something better to do with your time other than sitting on your arse smoking dope or whoring yourself for free? Are you really that unimaginative?