"This is a work experience programme and does not offer a salary"

Red_Marauder

Like a lot of other posters I don't see the problemwith working for free.

I have worked in agriculture a lot and with horses and in my last pre-graduate job I was working with young people who were working with racehorses for free. It wasn't that they had nothing better to do at 7am on a Saturday morning, but they recognised the experience they were getting from industry leaders.

There is no reason why young people in business should not be as glad of this experience just because they are wearing a suit. The principle is identical.

It also shows an employer that you are really committed, and I think it pays to do something like this.

Sleepy

Looking through that site some of the salaries on offer for the paid positions are incredibly low. Companies looking for experienced (3-5 years) developers and offering 25k!

Unshelved

Did this in the 80's - so did most of my friends who didn't emigrate upon leaving college. Got brilliant experience, and my first job six months later. I'm still in the same line of work and still enjoy it.

Everyone knows that the days of walking straight into a job after graduation are more or less gone for the moment. Don't knock it till you've tried it - it's better than having gaps on your CV, and it could open some doors to you.

fly_agaric

Sleepy wrote: »

Looking through that site some of the salaries on offer for the paid positions are incredibly low. Companies looking for experienced (3-5 years) developers and offering 25k!

It's steep if they can wangle an unemployed person to work for them courtesy of mother state!:D

Coming soon - chain gangs of prisoners sweeping the streets and cleaning the parks! Slave labour beats all when it comes to a capitalist race to the bottom, but a bonus army of unemployed people getting "work experience" while on the dole is pretty good for the economy too.

kinser

Christ ,
I hope Mediocrity isnt a people manager :rolleyes:

katkin

Gurgle wrote: »

This is essentially a 6-month interview process.

If you're good enough, you get a job out of it. If not, you're back on the dole with 6 months experience on your CV.

Either way its win-win.

Besides, theres nothing to stop you job hunting while on the program.

It's a bit early in the scheme to be drawing those conclusions. There is no guarantee that a company will keep any of these people on. I don't think anyone would deny that gaining experience in a company is preferable to doing nothing. I have a problem with this actually being used by employers to avoid paying for staff, read the information for employers on the Fas website, they are not precluding from taking on another person for six months when the first is gone. Originally in this scheme an employer couldn't take part if they had made someone redundant in the previous 6 months, this has been reduced to 3 months. What's to stop an employer making someone redundant, sticking it out for 3 months then taking on graduates for nothing. What incentive does an employer have to hire if they can get staff for nothing. I know its not idea to be constantly training people up but depending on the position I am sure some employers will tolerate that in return for zero cost.

avalon68

My main concern would be that these work placement jobs lead to less advertising of actual jobs. A while back I had a look through some of them and came across one in particular that concerned me. The position was very specific in the requirements of experience, and to be honest, only someone with a PhD would have fulilled those requirements......so instead of this particular position being offered at 40K - the starting scale for new postdocs....they will get someone to do it for free! Now I know this organization could well afford to hire someone....but sure if you can get someone for free, why bother? So while this position will provide someone with experience, it is also depriving someone of a job (and the state of tax revenue). I think at the very least the employer should have to contribute something financially too - maybe some agreement where the state and employer split the cost of the persons wage 50:50.

Seth Brundle

A company that is hiring someone with a PhD is obviously serious. I would find it difficult to believe that they will treat someone with the contempt that you mention

katkin

Agreeing with Avalon there. This scheme provides a great opportunity for new graduates to get experience, but what about the older graduates with experience already acrrued who can't get a job because all relevant advertised jobs are for WPP!

Mediocrity

It's a vicious circle that we're starting.

I really think all the main unions should state their opinions publicly on this issue.

Now if the dole paid €204 a week and the company topped that up with another €204 (with a 20% bonus for honours degree holders), an upper limit of 35 hours applied (overtime paid at €20 per hour), I wouldn't have too much of a problem with this scheme so long as it was perfectly clear that this was a work experience program.

As it stands, it's exploitation and we as a society are allowing a can of worms to be opened. This practice will eventually become the norm rather than the exception given enough time. Therefore now is the time to nip this issue in the bud. Only the unions have the power to do this.

France had riots amongst its youths in the not so distant past over generation discrimination between newer workers entering the workforce and those already in the workforce.

avalon68

kbannon wrote: »

A company that is hiring someone with a PhD is obviously serious. I would find it difficult to believe that they will treat someone with the contempt that you mention

I wouldnt really say they are treating anyone with contempt.....they are simply taking advantage of the fact that they can avail of free labour. If I was doing the hiring Id probably try for free labour too . I'd be very surprised if they get anyone though (for free that is)

katkin

Mediocrity, the unions couldn't care less, there were volunteers doing my former public sector job all summer! Anyway most of the companies taking this option are not likely to have workers represented by unions. Although its now open to the public sector, but they still won't say anything because only contract workers lost their jobs and these free workers will be welcomed by permanent staff so they can take up the slack.

donkey balls

i came across one of these ads on the fas website a few months ago it was for someone that had no experience/starting out within the transport industry.
yet when it came down to the qauls&experience they wanted min 2 years experience be a certain age for insurance reasons more or less get someone to work for nothing.
when i started out in the transport industry in order to get that first job i left a full time job to go back to fas/college,but there are employers out there milking the situation i actually reported the advert to fas who promptly took the ad down.

katkin

Mr.S wrote: »

Obviously i wouldn't work for free.

Your still getting ~190euro a week. And while you could get this by doing nothing, personally i'd rather work for it with the chance of getting a full time payed job after the 6 months.

Say you recently graduated from university with a Computing Degree, you have virtually no experience in the area. Its fairly impossible to get a job in the IT sector without experience. But yet you have the chance to get 6 months experience, which is great.

Sure the "pay" (dole) is ****, but you will be much better off 6 months down the line, as you have something to show for your time, rather then sitting at home doing nothing.

Yes indeed, but there will be no jobs there because employers will be taking people of the WPP. And there is very little there now because of this scheme. Not even chance of temporary work. Employer: "Maternity leave coming up, why I'll just put me down for this WPP thing and get me someone for nothing". If people continue to support this swiz that dole queue will be getting longer and staying put.

thebman

katkin wrote: »

Yes indeed, but there will be no jobs there because employers will be taking people of the WPP. And there is very little there now because of this scheme. Not even chance of temporary work. Employer: "Maternity leave coming up, why I'll just put me down for this WPP thing and get me someone for nothing". If people continue to support this swiz that dole queue will be getting longer and staying put.

Most IT people could not be replaced by someone with no experience, it usually takes 6 months before a graduate can do anything useful TBH.

nesf

thebman wrote: »

Most IT people could not be replaced by someone with no experience, it usually takes 6 months before a graduate can do anything useful TBH.

Exactly! There's a bloody good reason why experience (specifically your first 5-10 years) is so important in the job market.

Alcatel

When I get a graduate, including people with MA's and PhD's all up, they have a lot of knowledge but sweet FA on how to work it in the real world. They need time to get their first bite, and it takes time on the company's behalf to give them that experience and teach them.

Also, when hiring, people who have just sat on their arses are held much lower on the scale than people who have been doing something, anything - voluntary work with a charity, an internship, anything.

Sleepy

thebman wrote: »

Most IT people could not be replaced by someone with no experience, it usually takes 6 months before a graduate can do anything useful TBH.

Definitely true, most new graduate hires are useless for at least the first 3 months and only really in a position to pull their weight after 6.

johnnyskeleton

Mediocrity wrote: »

If you start your career as a pushover, you'll end it as a pushover.

I don't agree with this at all. In the US unpaid internships are quite common. In a lot of professional sectors in Ireland e.g. legal, finance etc they are too. If you are an actor, artist, musician etc, you can expect to work for free or little money for the first few years.

Why is this? Because basically when you start in a job that requires a degree of technical prowess, you are of little or no value to the employer. You have to learn how to do the job before you can actually ask for money to do it. In many of these scenarios, the employer will have to work less quickly than they normally would so that the intern can keep up with what they are doing. Once they learn what they are doing then they can command a wage.

Or to put it another way, the employer will take them on and when they are bringing in money that's when the employer starts to pay them.

In a sense, it's like when you're self employed. No one is going to pay you for just being there, you have to offer something that people want and are prepared to pay you for. It often takes a while to build up a trade when self employed, and in certain jobs it is no different.

At least when you're doing the fas scheme you get to keep your dole. The self employed are self sufficient from the get go.

astrofool

Sounds like an internship really.

líreacán

My problem with schemes like this lies as such:

When I graduated late 2008, I started a job right away, with a two day break between final exam and first day at work. This job was not related to my degree in any way and was paid at just above the minimum wage, not to mention being highly unchallenging and demotivating. As the economy turned, I kept this job to date. Classmates of mine went travelling after their exams, sat around, and they all thought I was mad to start work right away, and that the work was beneath me.

Now, this WPP scheme comes in, but to be eligible you have to have been unemployed for 6months beforehand. If a position comes up that is relevant to my field, I am not eligible for it as I am currently employed, even though I would also highly benefit from the work experience in the area and would jump at the chance. My classmates, who were too lethargic to get out and look for work just after their exams on the other hand or too proud to accept certain kinds of work, can jump right in and in 6 months time be in a better position to be employed in our field.

Now, while I agree that it is beneficial to be working for the JSA as opposed to just waiting for it week in, week out, I can see the flaws in the system. Why can't I go for a WPP in my area, freeing up my current job for someone else?

Just my two cents.

katkin

líreacán wrote: »

My problem with schemes like this lies as such:

When I graduated late 2008, I started a job right away, with a two day break between final exam and first day at work. This job was not related to my degree in any way and was paid at just above the minimum wage, not to mention being highly unchallenging and demotivating. As the economy turned, I kept this job to date. Classmates of mine went travelling after their exams, sat around, and they all thought I was mad to start work right away, and that the work was beneath me.

Now, this WPP scheme comes in, but to be eligible you have to have been unemployed for 6months beforehand. If a position comes up that is relevant to my field, I am not eligible for it as I am currently employed, even though I would also highly benefit from the work experience in the area and would jump at the chance. My classmates, who were too lethargic to get out and look for work just after their exams on the other hand or too proud to accept certain kinds of work, can jump right in and in 6 months time be in a better position to be employed in our field.

Now, while I agree that it is beneficial to be working for the JSA as opposed to just waiting for it week in, week out, I can see the flaws in the system. Why can't I go for a WPP in my area, freeing up my current job for someone else?

Just my two cents.

A very good point. Which makes me wonder are people "employed" in this scheme and receiving the equivalent of jobseekers from Fas not counted in the live register? And is this why it isn't open to someone such as you who would really benefit but you're not a target because you're not on the dole.

sceptre

katkin wrote: »

A very good point. Which makes me wonder are people "employed" in this scheme and receiving the equivalent of jobseekers from Fas not counted in the live register?

They wouldn't be, no. Technically it's a FAS training course and people on FAS training courses aren't counted.

And is this why it isn't open to someone such as you who would really benefit but you're not a target because you're not on the dole.

In a word, yes.

As extra information towards the discussion (but not directly dealing with the above two questions), given that the original link is dead I'm guessing that the programme in question is this one. The length seems to have changed from six to nine months.

katkin

Oh my God. You're right. Nine months now. Well its definitely an employers "market". Madness.

ninty9er

Mediocrity wrote: »

Lol. I imagine you'd work for free then eh?

Luckily I'm not on the dole either, but there's no way I would work for free.

I've offered to work for a company for free at weekends to gain experience. It's better than shelling out €5k to sit in a classroom and be lectured about "Industrial Relations: 1700s to present day"

In fairness, you'll learn more doing the job. There have been people crying out for this sort of programme for years.

People who qualify as Barristers have to work for free for their devilling period, and keep themselves in the Law Library, and can't take a part time job that would "damage" the reputation of the profession, AND they can't claim Social Welfare, which people on work placement programmes can.

eclectichoney

líreacán wrote: »

Now, this WPP scheme comes in, but to be eligible you have to have been unemployed for 6months beforehand. If a position comes up that is relevant to my field, I am not eligible for it as I am currently employed, even though I would also highly benefit from the work experience in the area and would jump at the chance. My classmates, who were too lethargic to get out and look for work just after their exams on the other hand or too proud to accept certain kinds of work, can jump right in and in 6 months time be in a better position to be employed in our field.
.

Since Dec 1st, if you are a graduate you do not need to be unemployed for 6 months, you can apply straight away. They changed the conditions.

líreacán

eclectichoney wrote: »

Since Dec 1st, if you are a graduate you do not need to be unemployed for 6 months, you can apply straight away. They changed the conditions.

Really?? That's great!! Gives a bit more hope to all of us who have been working in whatever we could get until the economy picks up again!!! To FAS.ie I go...!

Maebh

Here's how I'd see the whole issue.

Yes, it is better to do something of worth while you are unemployed. I think, however, there are very few options available to anyone. The courses are fine, so long as you've never done any kind of further education before. The Back to Education would be alright, except they pay you around 2/3 of the actual cost of attending university, tell you which courses you can and can't do (despite not knowing which sectors will be hiring by the time you graduate) and have recently cut the grant which was previously allowed.

This scheme seems no different. It's a catch-22 situation in my mind. There's no winner except the employer, and even they aren't winning very much. Think about it, they either get embittered workers, or have to retrain people every 6-9 months, or they just lose out overall by lowering the capacity of the country to produce highly-skilled people.

When you have a workers' rights ethic, when you treat people fairly, pay them fairly, and serve them honestly, it works out better for everybody.

The government have made it clear to everyone, but their message is so sugar-coated no one seems to have heard the underlying message - if you're unemployed, feck off. If you're young, feck off. If you want an education, we don't care. If you want any rights, go somewhere else. If you want the social contract to be upheld, we'll laugh right in your face.

And if you have any ideas above your station, you'd better just keep 'em to yourself.

So shut up, put up, and vote FF in 2012

ContyHooks

Exactly ^

Where is the incentive to attend 3rd level for 4 years and get a degree, (and adding to a highly skilled and educated workforce)... when you have to feck around working full-time for €196 (That is around €4.90/hour) for 6 months when you finish, and no guarantee of a job after? Sure jaysus ya could probably walk into a job in mcdonalds after graduating that pays 30% higher than that!

If anyone thinks even a moderate percentage of these employers taking on people for the WPP scheme will offer them full-time paid positions at the end, you are absolutely deluded. If that was the case, all these hundreds of unpaid positions would have been advertised before this scheme came about, advertised as minimum-wage jobs.

If the companies had no money to hire people before this scheme started (last summer I believe), they don't have the money now, and won't in 6 months either going by economists predictions for the country & banks in the short-medium term.

I'm working at the moment and am possibly going to be made redundant by the end of march, along with 4 colleagues. I can tell you now if that happens there isn't a chance in hell I'll be working for my dole. They could threaten to cut the dole off and I still wouldn't do it. I didn't spend 4 years in college and 5 years gaining postgrad work experience to work for €4.90 a hour.

eclectichoney

ContyHooks wrote: »

Exactly ^

Where is the incentive to attend 3rd level for 4 years and get a degree, (and adding to a highly skilled and educated workforce)... when you have to feck around working full-time for €196 (That is around €4.90/hour) for 6 months when you finish, and no guarantee of a job after? Sure jaysus ya could probably walk into a job in mcdonalds after graduating that pays 30% higher than that!

Because if you take the former option - having 9 months relevant industry/sector experience, you'll be in a far better position to get a job in your chosen sector if and when the economy does start to improve.

Also people seem to get that the alternative to the WPP is (in most cases) not paid employment, but rather nothing. A lot of places like mcDonalds are not hiring at the moment (and where they are there is a lot of competition for such jobs, so now guarantee all these ridiculously talented graduates would necessarily get a job there :rolleyes:) so to use that as an argument isn't completely valid.