"This is a work experience programme and does not offer a salary"

katkin

The economy actually ever recovering is based on so many factors. But how is it going to recover in even a small way when you have a govt scheme whereby employers can hire people for nothing. As was suggested in this thread somewhere at the very least the employers should have to make some contribution to pay the employee, even 100 euro would help offset costs and ensure they spend something within the economy. As it is I can't afford to partake of this scheme cos I'd be out of pocket and am barely scraping by as it is. I cannot contribute indirect or direct tax to the govt when I have no wage. Nobody can. Introduce a scheme where large companies can have workers who contribute nothing in taxes or spending power and you compound our problems. Some countries introduced job stimulus programmes - we introduce a free workers scheme. There's a lot of talk on this thread about this scheme being of benefit "if/when the economy recovers" but I think this scheme is anti-recovery and recovery isn't going to appear out of the sky someday - it needs people spending now. This scheme will negatively affect our recovery in the short to medium term as it is a disincentive to employers to hire and take people off the dole queues and into the tax nets.

Kidchameleon

Mediocrity wrote: »

It's like when your friends and family ask you to "fix" their computers cos they know you have advanced degrees in computer science. I'm not prepared to sit around for half a day to back up their data, reformat their hard disk and reinstall all their applications to suit their exact specifications, when I could be doing other things.

You wouldnt do this for a friend or family?? You opinion doesent matter now!

murphaph

Unpaid internships are quite common here in Germany. It's a bit sh!t if you're really good at something to get paid zip for it, but if you have no experience and want to crack into a sector, it's fair enough. Irish people need to realise that this is also common around the world and will become the norm in Ireland too for college graduates.

Popple3

I'm in second year in my software development degree at the moment, so I still have a long way to go yet, but I know now that I'd jump at the opportunity to get industry experience, even if I'd only be getting JSA.

I'll be one of the first to admit I hate seeing "Min x years experience required" in every job posting I see. It doesn't really allow for people who might have great talent, and are well capable for the job. But it's just the way things are, it can't be helped, so the best way to get into a career, is to accept work experience, and work your way up

Actually, does anyone know what happens with work placement when in college? Is it paid (lowly, of course), or is it really down to discretion of the company you get your experience with?

avalon68

Popple3 wrote: »

I'm in second year in my software development degree at the moment, so I still have a long way to go yet, but I know now that I'd jump at the opportunity to get industry experience, even if I'd only be getting JSA.

It may not be as easy as you think to get a WPP place - I just had a quick scan through some there and several of the ones I clicked on were similar to this:

Area of activity: R&D Product Development. Elements of experience: developing C# in a .net three tier client service architecture. Analysis of customer requirements. Design and development of features and integration libraries. Providing time estimates and project planning. Bug fixing and release maintenance. Will have exposure to full product life cycle including requirements design, development, test, install and support. Occasionally required to visit customer sites. Person Specification: 3+ years experience; graduate degree Level 7 / Diploma/MA in IT Computer or equivalent. Must have strong C# or Java knowledge. Strong knowledge of Windows operating systems; strong knowledge of object orientated analysis and design principles. Strong team and communication skills. Excellent analysis and problem solving skills.

Now how does this benefit a recent graduate in any way? It benefits the employer who will get an experienced worker for free.

Popple3

avalon68 wrote: »

It may not be as easy as you think to get a WPP place - I just had a quick scan through some there and several of the ones I clicked on were similar to this:

Area of activity: R&D Product Development. Elements of experience: developing C# in a .net three tier client service architecture. Analysis of customer requirements. Design and development of features and integration libraries. Providing time estimates and project planning. Bug fixing and release maintenance. Will have exposure to full product life cycle including requirements design, development, test, install and support. Occasionally required to visit customer sites. Person Specification: 3+ years experience; graduate degree Level 7 / Diploma/MA in IT Computer or equivalent. Must have strong C# or Java knowledge. Strong knowledge of Windows operating systems; strong knowledge of object orientated analysis and design principles. Strong team and communication skills. Excellent analysis and problem solving skills.

Now how does this benefit a recent graduate in any way? It benefits the employer who will get an experienced worker for free.

I know it might not be easy to get WPP, but what I'm saying is, if I got the opportunity, I'd snap it up. I do think offering WPP to someone with 3+ years experience is ridiculous though, and gives very little benefit to the job seeker

ei.sdraob

Popple3 wrote: »

Actually, does anyone know what happens with work placement when in college? Is it paid (lowly, of course), or is it really down to discretion of the company you get your experience with?

i dont know about nowadays with recession and all that

but few years back engineering placement experience programs (which are great experience btw) used to on average pay slightly above min wage, and students usually have to move to another part of country etc (usually an experience in itself)

thinking back to my own placement experience many moons ago i would have done it for free, it was worth a huge amount to me and looks damn good on CV, anyways any good job is a continuous experience in itself where you learn something new everyday

i haven't read whole thread, but as a current employer I would not hire the OP with such an "entitlement" attitude, he should consider growing a beard and dropping a CV into any of the numerous leeching trade unions we have

having pieces of paper is one thing (yes i do have masters) having experience is another, having both is better

avalon68

Popple3 wrote: »

I know it might not be easy to get WPP, but what I'm saying is, if I got the opportunity, I'd snap it up. I do think offering WPP to someone with 3+ years experience is ridiculous though, and gives very little benefit to the job seeker

Sorry, I didnt mean to sound like you shouldnt snap it up:) I was just trying to point out that in its current form this WPP is wide open to abuse by employers. I think it would be a great idea for recent graduates to gain experience in their field - but perhaps there are better ways of doing this - maybe via the colleges/unis as an add on of 6 months where you would do the work placement. This would ensure that only new graduates could be employed under this scheme. I also feel the employer should contribute something financially to the arrangement - even just 100 euro per week would make a huge difference to the employee

ei.sdraob

avalon68 wrote: »

Sorry, I didnt mean to sound like you shouldnt snap it up:) I was just trying to point out that in its current form this WPP is wide open to abuse by employers. I think it would be a great idea for recent graduates to gain experience in their field - but perhaps there are better ways of doing this - maybe via the colleges/unis as an add on of 6 months where you would do the work placement. This would ensure that only new graduates could be employed under this scheme. I also feel the employer should contribute something financially to the arrangement - even just 100 euro per week would make a huge difference to the employee

a lot of engineering/it courses in universities do have a 6-9mths placement program and well staffed placement offices

the institutes (from what i seen) dont have these facilities unfortunately

you right its a great experience for student and employers

thebman

avalon68 wrote: »

Sorry, I didnt mean to sound like you shouldnt snap it up:) I was just trying to point out that in its current form this WPP is wide open to abuse by employers. I think it would be a great idea for recent graduates to gain experience in their field - but perhaps there are better ways of doing this - maybe via the colleges/unis as an add on of 6 months where you would do the work placement. This would ensure that only new graduates could be employed under this scheme. I also feel the employer should contribute something financially to the arrangement - even just 100 euro per week would make a huge difference to the employee

It's not really open to abuse though. It assumes people with 3 years experience are not able to find work. In software that isn't really the case if you have a good cv. This will only attract people if they can't get work and if the person going for it thinks they'll get something out of it, otherwise why would you offer to work for free.

In short, it is only open to abuse if people are willing to let themselves be abused.

avalon68

thebman wrote: »

It's not really open to abuse though. It assumes people with 3 years experience are not able to find work. In software that isn't really the case if you have a good cv. This will only attract people if they can't get work and if the person going for it thinks they'll get something out of it, otherwise why would you offer to work for free.

In short, it is only open to abuse if people are willing to let themselves be abused.

Personally I feel that a job requiring 3+ years experience should not be allowed to be offered as part of the WPP though. It should have been advertised as a job, with an appropriate salary. It seems to me they are hoping to get someone with experience who is afraid that being unemployed and sitting at home will ruin their cv. I feel it strictly be available to people who will actually benefit from it - recent graduates with little real world experience.

thebman

avalon68 wrote: »

Personally I feel that a job requiring 3+ years experience should not be allowed to be offered as part of the WPP though. It should have been advertised as a job, with an appropriate salary. It seems to me they are hoping to get someone with experience who is afraid that being unemployed and sitting at home will ruin their cv. I feel it strictly be available to people who will actually benefit from it - recent graduates with little real world experience.

But it wouldn't matter if they did do it, the person would be p***ed off at working for free so they'd get what they pay for.

I don't think the program is that great an idea in its current form and probably do with tweaking like requiring an employer to keep the person on for equivalent period afterwards for experienced positions paid.

If the company is struggling for an entire year they are most likely on the way out as they should have at least one or two good quarters in the year and should be in a position to keep someone on at some point in the year.

Alex_Jones

I started on €29k straight out of college with no experience.

You should feck off to the Middle East or somewhere. There's no tax, sunshine and instant respect for being a university-educated, English-speaking westerner. One of my mates (a geologist) is working for Shell and has her own driver to take her to and from work and take her out socialising at weekends.

There's life outside Ireland. If someone offered me €196 a week for my skills, I'd laugh in their face.

It's a slippery slope you're tolerating here folks. Demand higher standards. Oh, and have a bit of self-respect. You've nobody to blame but yourself if you allow yourself to be walked all over.

dazberry

The whole thing is just a scam so that the live register figures can be doctored, the exact same thing was done with the so called Jobs for Students program back in the early 90s.

Secondly, when you get something for nothing, you don't always appreciate it, and given the calibre of some of the employers I have met on my travels in the software development business over the last 15 years, some would be very happy to abuse this for cheap labour.

D.

LisaMe

I was just about to start my own thread but see there is a live one here.

I graduated from college recently and did an internship in America, which is pretty common over there. The internships are more for people while they're in college so it wouldn't feel so bad that they work for free. It was basically bottom of the pile work I was doing like data entry, answering the phones, photocopying etc but was great experience for me as I got a great feel for the workplace of a tough industry I wanted to get into! I got paid well too.

When I got back to Ireland, I did an "internship" in an office in a college/service but soon found out that it was a way of getting qualified people to do cheap labour. It wasn't "work experience", the boss was putting pressure on me to find more people to fill the courses etc. I felt sorry for her as she said she couldn't afford to pay for staff but I really should have had enough self-respect to walk away, from the way I was treated.

I think that working for free / a nominal amount is a good idea, maybe in TY or as a new graduate wanting to get into a tough industry and get experience. But just watch out for all these "internships" popping up all around the place (I don't think I actually heard of the word internship 2 years ago for every type of company!) looking for people to work for free. Right now I'm doing work experience again and I am happy where I am right now as I know that I'm not going to be working for free forever and would rather not have a gap on my CV. But I feel like an idiot for working my ass off for that other place where the line from "work experience" to "cheap labour" was well crossed.

anymore

sceptre wrote: »

They wouldn't be, no. Technically it's a FAS training course and people on FAS training courses aren't counted.


In a word, yes.

As extra information towards the discussion (but not directly dealing with the above two questions), given that the original link is dead I'm guessing that the programme in question is this one. The length seems to have changed from six to nine months.

this is a useful piece of information, particularily for those trying to break into a new area but who dont have relevant work experience.

28064212

dazberry wrote: »

The whole thing is just a scam so that the live register figures can be doctored, the exact same thing was done with the so called Jobs for Students program back in the early 90s

Firstly, it's nothing to do with the Live Register figures, since you're not taken off the Live Register. I can confirm this for certain, since I am on the WPP, and I still have to sign on. I don't know how it works for other Fás courses, but on the WPP you do not have your JSA replaced by a Fás payment, you just keep your JSA. In fact, as far as I know, my welfare office doesn't even know I'm on the WPP, since it doesn't affect my relationship to them in any way. The organisational aspects are handled between Fás and the employer.

Secondly, to the people who are dismissing the program, are you out there looking for work at the moment with no practical experience? I can tell you right now, it's not fun. There's over 400,000 out of work in the country at the moment. Why should a company take a chance on me, when there's ten other people applying who have much more experience and are willing to work for only a little more? Any new employee will take a while to get up to speed, but even for an intelligent and hard-working person, you can triple that time for a new graduate. Not to mention the support and training they will need. A new graduate is a gamble, simple as. They have no track-record, and could easily be at either end of the spectrum.

To the people who say you are as well off at home, that's insane. I can think of plenty of things I can do at home that would be beneficial to my career, but nothing comes close to actual experience working in a company. What's the use in me explaining how I managed to build a complete replacement for Microsoft Office as a home-project, if the interviewer looks at me and says "yes, but how do you work in a team?". Employers can trust references, they can trust successful periods of employment, they can't trust 'stuff you did at home'. Even if I don't get a job at the end of my placement, I can point back to it and say "I did this, my ex-employer can confirm it, here's his number". Projects from outside work are what they look to for extra-credit.

From an employer's point of view, it's easy to see what they gain from this programme. They may not have the money to hire someone with experience, but equally, they can't afford to take a chance on training up a graduate only to find out they're a poor employee. With the WPP, they can conduct a 9-month interview, and at the end, they either get a new employee who's fully up to speed, or they've lost nothing.

Lastly, there are undoubtedly problems with the implementation, the most glaring being the offers which are looking for 3 years experience. However, that is against the spirit and the concept of the placement. Fás should do a better job of removing these offers. However, these do not negate the positives that this programme can have.

Ronan|Raven

The program is ok for people out of college and looking to gain experience in their respective fields. To a person working many years in their sector and then having to move to the location for the WPP and then do the job off 195 a week for 9 months.... I cannot see too many going for it somehow.

Gurgle

Ronan|Raven wrote: »

To a person working many years in their sector and then having to move to the location for the WPP and then do the job off 195 a week for 9 months.... I cannot see too many going for it somehow.

Leaving aside the experience gained:

These are obviously positions available because they need someone to do the work, if you make yourself indispensible in 9 months you'll get a job offer out of it.

In the meantime you can keep looking for work, they can hardly object to you taking time off for interviews.

If nothing else they'll keep you warm, dry and full of coffee for 9 months.

Its win-win for everyone.

28064212

Ronan|Raven wrote: »

The program is ok for people out of college and looking to gain experience in their respective fields. To a person working many years in their sector and then having to move to the location for the WPP and then do the job off 195 a week for 9 months.... I cannot see too many going for it somehow.

Which is how it should be. Experience is not supposed to be a requirement for this program

DogmaticLefty

Seemingly this practice is banned in the public service. My dad said his union were totally opposed to a manager trying to get his nephew into the civil service on "work experience" citing insurance reasons.

dvpower

DogmaticLefty wrote: »

My dad said his union were totally opposed to a manager trying to get his nephew into the civil service on "work experience" citing insurance reasons.

Insurance reasons? Is nepotism still alive and well in the civil service?

97i9y3941

all down to cost my friends,sure you can have your degrees,your dipolmas and your high standards,but the big companies dont give a f#ck aslong you can put the parts together and its all cheap,sure we have a knowledge economy but we are backwards in broadband and still expensive to do business in.

97i9y3941

DogmaticLefty wrote: »

Seemingly this practice is banned in the public service. My dad said his union were totally opposed to a manager trying to get his nephew into the civil service on "work experience" citing insurance reasons.

read that in the paper too,basically some dont want their lovely overtime cut.