The poor air traffic controllers

Tim Robbins

Spare a thought for the poor air traffic controllers. There poor victims of the recession are on 115K a year and a pension and should be getting more money because they are doing something new in their job and are due a 6% rise.

They must be the highest paid technicians in the world. The poor things.

Alcatel

Whilst I appreciate (particularly as a frequent flyer) the hard and skilled job that it is to be an ATC, they're having a laugh if they think they deserve a 6% increase during the recession and just because they have to do something new in their job.

Tim Robbins

Alcatel wrote: »

Whilst I appreciate (particularly as a frequent flyer) the hard and skilled job that it is to be an ATC, they're having a laugh if they think they deserve a 6% increase during the recession and just because they have to do something new in their job.

What's hard and skilled about it? Compared to other technical jobs?

They don't research anything, they don't design anything, they don't take risks. Granted they have some responsibility but really? The complicated stuff is done for them by the software they are using. It's a technical role.

I wonder what they get in other countries.

herya

Tim Robbins wrote: »

They don't research anything, they don't design anything, they don't take risks. Granted they have some responsibility but really? The complicated stuff is done for them by the software they are using. It's a technical role.

It's not when there's an emergency. My cousin is training for an ATC, it's not an easy job and there's a lot of responsibility, many burn out very early. They shouldn't be getting this raise but don't belittle them so easily.

The_Honeybadger

herya wrote: »

It's not when there's an emergency. My cousin is training for an ATC, it's not an easy job and there's a lot of responsibility, many burn out very early. They shouldn't be getting this raise but don't belittle them so easily.

Actually know an ATC personally and he has always said that it is an immensely stressful job and nobody would do it if it wasnt for the good salary. He has told me he will retire early due to the stress that the job entails and he is only 30, I have no doubt it is a stressful job and you have thousands of lives in your hands in an emergency, if I and my family are flying I would like to know the ATC bringing in the plane is happy and on top of his game. Still, will 6% really effect their standard of living enough to justify a strike when they are on that salary? I think not, its a terribly selfish action and just another example of the unions determination to make everybody suffer so that their members can remain untouched by the situation that is causing hardship to so many.

Tim Robbins

herya wrote: »

It's not when there's an emergency. My cousin is training for an ATC, it's not an easy job and there's a lot of responsibility, many burn out very early. They shouldn't be getting this raise but don't belittle them so easily.

Really? I don't know that much about it. But I'd be happy to change my opinions if someone can make a good argument for it.

The stress one isn't a good argument. It's the teacher's card. All jobs are stressful.

Anyone know what they get in other countries?
Info on UK salaries here:

http://www.prospects.ac.uk/p/types_of_job/air_traffic_controller_salary.jsp

Starting salary is £10,100.
The salary rises to £15,000 - £18,000 on appointment.
Salaries typically rise after validation (two years into the first appointment) to £46,000 - £50,000, depending on posted unit (salary data collected).
The typical salary for airport controllers with 10-15 years' experience is £60,000.
The typical salary for area centre controllers with substantial experience is around £88,000 (salary data collected March 2008).
More senior management grades run from £81,000 to £94,000.

So it seems that 60K is the salary there unless you are in senior management. And it's 115 Euro here.

Explain...

mickoneill30

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Anyone know what they get in other countries?

A quick Google brings up
UK
http://www.prospects.ac.uk/p/types_of_job/air_traffic_controller_salary.jsp
That seems to be from March 2008 so that was before the recession.

Australia (if you're looking for a job)
http://careers.airservicesaustralia.com/jobDetails.asp?sJobIDs=491494

Edit: Beaten by yourself. My Google searching must be too slow.

Sleepy

To be fair, I think the stress of having so many lives in your hands on a day to day basis would be fairly intense (and certainly more stressful than normal 'technical' roles where the worst you can do is wreck an information system). The burn out rate is quite widely known to be high (though I've not seen any figures on it).

That said, the idiocy of striking for salary increases in an environment where the government have just received wide support for cutting PS workers' salaries and where there'd be a mile-long queue of people lining up for training to replace you is staggering. Never mind the holding of union meetings during working hours, how is that legal? I understand that it's a 24/7 position but could a separate meeting not be held for each shift?

Staggering.

smellslikeshoes

There is definitely more to this than them just being greedy.

Link here posted Aviation & Aircraft which gives the other side.
If anyone really thinks being an ATC is an easy job and doesn't deserve to be as well payed as it does have a listen in to it here. You have the lives 100s of people on your shoulders at times and it takes a rare type of person to deal with the pressure.

Sleepy

You initiated unilateral changes without negotiation, why would you not expect a fight?

Seems to be the crux of their complaint, to which I'd respond that in the real world one does not get to negotiate on every aspect of your job.

Salary increments are a farce which should never be introduced in any profession. If your performance merits a raise, you should get one, you should not have an automatic "right" to one.

Do they think they're the only one's who have had salary increases agreed to under social partnership revoked due to the recession?

Could the government hire some American Military ATC's to replace these guys until their replacements can be trained up? I'd certainly apply for the job at current salary levels.

Tim Robbins

Sleepy wrote: »

To be fair, I think the stress of having so many lives in your hands on a day to day basis would be fairly intense (and certainly more stressful than normal 'technical' roles where the worst you can do is wreck an information system). The burn out rate is quite widely known to be high (though I've not seen any figures on it).

On that basis Firemen should get 1,000,000 a year.

A fireman actually saves life.
The ATC actually makes sure things work as they should.

A fireman ( I would suspect) would see death regularly.
An ATC could go their entire career and never see it.

A fireman could actually die doing their job.
An ATC could never die.

So because the ATC has some technical know how - know how that involves no R&D - they get the doe. Doesn't seem fair.

The_Honeybadger

Tim Robbins wrote: »

On that basis Firemen should get 1,000,000 a year.

A fireman actually saves life.
The ATC actually makes sure things work as they should.

A fireman ( I would suspect) would see death regularly.
An ATC could go their entire career and never see it.

A fireman could actually die doing their job.
An ATC could never die.

So because the ATC has some technical know how - know how that involves no R&D - they get the doe. Doesn't seem fair.

Interesting point of view, I would still like to be assured that the very best people possible are placed in these ATC roles. Best way to ensure that it is a highly sought after position is to make it a highly paid position, teachers also use this argument to justify their salary in my experience. This does not excuse what the ATCs are doing today of course, shameful behaviour.

PS If they do go through their entire careers withouts overseeing a tragedy surely this is an endorsement of their ability in a way?

rudedog

Tim Robbins wrote: »

What's hard and skilled about it? Compared to other technical jobs?

They don't research anything, they don't design anything, they don't take risks. Granted they have some responsibility but really? The complicated stuff is done for them by the software they are using. It's a technical role.

I wonder what they get in other countries.

Well said!

Alcatel

I think Tim makes a good point regarding the UK salary - why is an ATC controller in Ireland worth more than one in the UK, considering the UK is more crowded airspace?

115,000 is too much for the role, and I do believe it is more stressful than most. But we all have a choice in life as to what to do.

herya

Tim Robbins wrote: »

So because the ATC has some technical know how - know how that involves no R&D - they get the doe. Doesn't seem fair.

You have no clue what you're talking about. Yes they have software but all important decisions need to be signed off by a human and in case of emergency they have seconds to decide about hundreds of lives.

There are ATC responsible for the airport area - relatively easy although a bad ATC could still send an aircraft to take off from the same runway another flight is coming to land onto, plus crash them with ground traffic. It's something like a 3D puzzle in real time. I heard a story from the training when one candidate managed to crash an aircraft with a luggage train and another incoming aircraft into them; and he was not a bad candidate, he just had to juggle it along with many other items.

Then you have ATCs responsible for all the aircrafts in the controlled airspace which is several miles around the airport, taking off, preparing to land, waiting in line for the landing, then the ones just passing by including private flights and cargos on top of it. They are in radio contact all the time and need to manage them all, direct them and keep them separated. Imagine doing this in heavy traffic due to bad weather or emergency on board or on the ground. It's like a beehive.

Probably the least stressful is the flight control outside the airports - less complicated but again in case of emergency it's a nightmare. I knew an ATC who assisted the pilot of a small private flight - they crashed due to engine malfunction but he tried to assist them beforehand and he heard them die knowing that despite his best efforts he's helpless.

The candidates are hand picked for their personality and resilience and they face more life or death decisions than an average air pilot.

Yes they shouldn't strike for a salary raise but still it's a hugely responsible job. I'd rather have them earn 100k than some penpusher in FAS or a deputy school principal with a drinking problem.

Rujib1

herya wrote: »

You have no clue what you're talking about. Yes they have software but all important decisions need to be signed off by a human and in case of emergency they have seconds to decide about hundreds of lives.

There are ATC responsible for the airport area - relatively easy although a bad ATC could still send an aircraft to take off from the same runway another flight is coming to land onto, plus crash them with ground traffic. It's something like a 3D puzzle in real time. I heard a story from the training when one candidate managed to crash an aircraft with a luggage train and another incoming aircraft into them; and he was not a bad candidate, he just had to juggle it along with many other items.

Then you have ATCs responsible for all the aircrafts in the controlled airspace which is several miles around the airport, taking off, preparing to land, waiting in line for the landing, then the ones just passing by including private flights and cargos on top of it. They are in radio contact all the time and need to manage them all, direct them and keep them separated. Imagine doing this in heavy traffic due to bad weather or emergency on board or on the ground. It's like a beehive.

Probably the least stressful is the flight control outside the airports - less complicated but again in case of emergency it's a nightmare. I knew an ATC who assisted the pilot of a small private flight - they crashed due to engine malfunction but he tried to assist them beforehand and he heard them die knowing that despite his best efforts he's helpless.

The candidates are hand picked for their personality and resilience and they face more life or death decisions than an average air pilot.

Yes they shouldn't strike for a salary raise but still it's a hugely responsible job. I'd rather have them earn 100k than some penpusher in FAS or a deputy school principal with a drinking problem.

Yearra, get over it. bring all that logic to it's final conclusion, and you can justify assembly operators on the plane manufacturing plants, QA inspectors, mechanics who service the planes in service, all getting €120k or what ever.

Your average bus driver, has a lot of lives in his hands on a daily basis, without any real back up system, or guidence system like air traffic control.
He relies on 100% concentration 100% of the time, and does not have the security of some guy calling him up to tell him change course or speed or whatever to avoid a collision.

I hope these greedy clowns are taught a hard lesson in this fight. They cannot be allowed to win when average Joe on the street both public and private sector is taking pain.

Tim Robbins

herya wrote: »

You have no clue what you're talking about. Yes they have software but all important decisions need to be signed off by a human and in case of emergency they have seconds to decide about hundreds of lives.
...

How much do you think a fireman should get paid then?

Tim Robbins

Rujib1 wrote: »

Yearra, get over it. bring all that logic to it's final conclusion, and you can justify assembly operators on the plane manufacturing plants, QA inspectors, mechanics who service the planes in service, all getting €120k or what ever.

Your average bus driver, has a lot of lives in his hands on a daily basis, without any real back up system, or guidence system like air traffic control.
He relies on 100% concentration 100% of the time, and does not have the security of some guy calling him up to tell him change course or speed or whatever to avoid a collision.

I hope these greedy clowns are taught a hard lesson in this fight. They cannot be allowed to win when average Joe on the street both public and private sector is taking pain.

That's a great point about bus drivers especially considering the way cyclists weave in and out of them. You have to be a superb driver to be a bus driver.

Paddy James

look i for one couldn't care less about their stress

Every job is stressful and its all down to how you handle it

Time for them to get real and cop on to the fact that we are in a recession

What a load of g*obs*hites

Tim Robbins

Tim Robbins wrote: »

That's a great point about bus drivers especially considering the way cyclists weave in and out of them. You have to be a superb driver to be a bus driver.

Just thought of another one. A lifeguard - yeah they should be on about 300K based on some of the logic I am hearing here...

narwog81

Sleepy wrote: »

Could the government hire some American Military ATC's to replace these guys until their replacements can be trained up?

im sure we could look inward to our own military for solutions before asking for US aid, after all we wouldn't want the US to be accused of taking over another small country thats incapable of looking after itself:rolleyes:

herya

If you don't see a difference between learning to manage the airspace and learning to drive safely I rest my case.

Go get yourselves an ATC job if it's so easy. Surely if you can drive it should be just a formality.

narwog81

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Spare a thought for the poor air traffic controllers. There poor victims of the recession are on 115K a year and a pension and should be getting more money because they are doing something new in their job and are due a 6% rise.

They must be the highest paid technicians in the world. The poor things.

ehh try Spain:

"Of 2,300 controllers, ten were paid between €810,000 (£725,000) and €900,000 last year. A further 226 were paid between €450,000 and €540,000 and 701 were paid between €270,000 and €360,000.
The average basic salary is €200,000 but most double or triple this amount by working overtime"

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article6991798.ece

Galwegian44

This reminds me of the ATC strike in the USA in 1981 when Ronnie Reagan fired anyone who went on strike and replaced them....seems like a good precedent to me. I would also like to echo the points here that it is an extremely stressful job, totally different from other technicians (and even bus drivers!!).

I don't support such high salaries but bear in mind that if you applied, on average, the percentage differences in salaries (Teachers, Police etc get far less in the UK) between the UK and Ireland then there might not be such a difference.

The ATC do need to cop on however and see that their claims are not worth supporting in this climate.

Edit: the sentence in bold below was done by myself to highlight, it was not bolded in the original

The President. This morning at 7 a.m. the union representing those who man America's air traffic control facilities called a strike. This was the culmination of 7 months of negotiations between the Federal Aviation Administration and the union. At one point in these negotiations agreement was reached and signed by both sides, granting a $40 million increase in salaries and benefits. This is twice what other government employees can expect. It was granted in recognition of the difficulties inherent in the work these people perform. Now, however, the union demands are 17 times what had been agreed to — $681 million. This would impose a tax burden on their fellow citizens which is unacceptable.

It is for this reason that I must tell those who fail to report for duty this morning they are in violation of the law, and if they do not report for work within 48 hours, they have forfeited their jobs and will be terminated.

Q. Mr. President, are you going to order any union members who violate the law to go to jail?
The President. Well, I have some people around here, and maybe I should refer that question to the Attorney General.
Q. Do you think that they should go to jail, Mr. President, anybody who violates this law?
The President. I told you what I think should be done. They're terminated.

Idbatterim

In the event of an extreme emerygency, couldnt they consult with other colleagues?! when I take my car out on the road, I may be forced to make an instantaneous decision that could lead to life or death for myself or others! How many of us lose sleep over that when hopping in a car?!!!

Galwegian44

The difference is that you could, and probably do make mistakes when driving a car (as we all do from time to time) but in 99.99% of the cases it doesn't cost a life. With an ATC, any mistakes are unacceptable as the likelihood of it causing large numbers of deaths is very high and that is where the pressure resides.

Idbatterim wrote: »

In the event of an extreme emerygency, couldnt they consult with other colleagues?! when I take my car out on the road, I may be forced to make an instantaneous decision that could lead to life or death for myself or others! How many of us lose sleep over that when hopping in a car?!!!

Tim Robbins

Statistically you have a much higher chance of dieing in a car than on a plane. Statisically about 500 people die ever year on the roads. When was the last time there was plane crash in Ireland?

So, if it's all about risk, taxi drivers and bus drivers should get more than pilots?

Idbatterim

Pay increases for anyone in the PS shouldnt even come into the equation! If they arent happy, they should leave! ATC should not be allowed to strike...

Tim Robbins

Galwegian44 wrote: »

The difference is that you could, and probably do make mistakes when driving a car (as we all do from time to time) but in 99.99% of the cases it doesn't cost a life. With an ATC, any mistakes are unacceptable as the likelihood of it causing large numbers of deaths is very high and that is where the pressure resides.

I don't buy that. There have all sorts of systems, processes and safety margins. People are talking as if it's a war - real life or death stuff. There would be a lot more deaths if that was the case...

The ATCs get a huge amount of time off. Surely that's enough compenstation for the "stress".

Galwegian44

Not taxi drivers and bus drivers but the Road Traffic Controllers......now who exactly are these people?

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Statistically you have a much higher chance of dieing in a car than on a plane. Statisically about 500 people die ever year on the roads. When was the last time there was plane crash in Ireland?

So, if it's all about risk, taxi drivers and bus drivers should get more than pilots?

narwog81

Tim Robbins wrote: »

. Statisically about 500 people die ever year on the roads.

A total of 241 people lost their lives on the country's roads in 2009

http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1G1-215616445.html

not quite 500....