The poor air traffic controllers

narwog81

Tim Robbins wrote: »

When was the last time there was plane crash in Ireland?

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/four-killed-in-plane-crash-in-ireland-974786.html

from 2008 but i can think of several crashes in 2009 also, not least the air corps crash in connemara in november

Galwegian44

Tim - It is likely that in the future, technology will make the controller more of systems technician co-ordinating decisions made by automated systems.

However there are problems with technology that takes the controller out of the decision loop but requires the controller to step back in to control exceptional situations. Computer systems are not that sophisticated to make the important decisions and are not reliable enough (remember Dublin Airport last year). Air traffic control is a skill that has to be kept current by regular practice and training.

It may not be war but it's not like driving a bus either (no disrespect meant to bus drivers who are also skilled).

Tim Robbins wrote: »

I don't buy that. There have all sorts of systems, processes and safety margins. People are talking as if it's a war - real life or death stuff. There would be a lot more deaths if that was the case...

The ATCs get a huge amount of time off. Surely that's enough compenstation for the "stress".

herya

Idbatterim wrote: »

when I take my car out on the road, I may be forced to make an instantaneous decision that could lead to life or death for myself or others!

Yes but it won't be 100+ others at one go.

Your decision affects you, your passengers and a very limited number of other people, plus in most cases you have a very good chance of survival even if you have to crawl out of a burning car. There's no crawling out in air collisions.

ixoy

Galwegian44 wrote: »

Tim - It is likely that in the future, technology will make the controller more of systems technician co-ordinating decisions made by automated systems.

So if technology is going to make it easier for them - and growing in sophistication - why the hell are they whinging about having to adapt to these new systems?

jmayo

Tim Robbins wrote: »

What's hard and skilled about it? Compared to other technical jobs?

They don't research anything, they don't design anything, they don't take risks. Granted they have some responsibility but really? The complicated stuff is done for them by the software they are using. It's a technical role.

I wonder what they get in other countries.

As someone who does know a couple of ATCs and has some flying experience, I would suggest you do some research.

ATCS mostly have a limited career time, burn out can be high and reitrement usually can be earleir than most jobs.
Breakdowns can be high in some countries.
The job can be really stressful at busy airports, Dublin I would say is one.
Fine if you are stuck in Knock, Shannon or Cork where there a lot less flights and less traffic.

You say they take "some responsibility".

FFS do you know anything about aviation and how ATC works ?
They have to make sure that some numpty who thinks he is Tom Cruise doesn't do something stupid, all the while making sure the guy who doesn't understand English actually follows your instructions to the letter.

Have you ever been in the hold pattern at Heathrow ?
Next time look out the bloody window and see how many aircraft can be there.
Do you think all the pilots just fly around and keep an eye out.
Yes technology plays a part, but it is ultimately up to some controller to oversee separation both vertical and horizontal.
Some one has to coordinate that flying parking lot.
There is huge responsibility because if you fu** up a few hundred people could be dead.
BTW they may never see those dead people since it is unlikely the aircraft falls directly outside the tower or control centre.

Yes technology plays a big part, but it still fu**s up, and there is the human element which sometimes causes technology to be ignored.
There is a human condition where pilots become fixated and no matter what technology is telling them they make up their minds.
It has been found to have caused numerous accidents.

Tim Robbins wrote: »

On that basis Firemen should get 1,000,000 a year.

A fireman actually saves life.
The ATC actually makes sure things work as they should.

A fireman ( I would suspect) would see death regularly.
An ATC could go their entire career and never see it.

A fireman could actually die doing their job.
An ATC could never die.

So because the ATC has some technical know how - know how that involves no R&D - they get the doe. Doesn't seem fair.

FFS.
So should peoples' salaries be paid based on how many deaths they see or deal with.
A mortican or undertaker must be on millions then :rolleyes:

BTW even though I respect the job ATCs perform and understand the pressures they sometimes have to work under, I do not condone them looking for a raise at this time since we cannot afford it and by all accounts their workload is decreasing.

EDIT: I just spotted your stupid remark about air crash in Ireland.
What the fu** has statistic got to do with how much ATCs are paid ?
Once again you apepar to justify salaries based on how many deaths there are.

The more you post on this topic, the worse you make yourself look.

Alcatel

If we were to hire in Europe for equally good ATC's, what would we have to pay? A lot less than 110,000EUR if we simply look to the UK, which isn't miles away from us in terms of living standards or costs.

Set the salaries people will work for, not just the people you have.

Galwegian44

Maybe because the statement began with "It is likely......". And put yourselves in their shoes, would you not do the same? I would.

But the government needs to let them know that their demands are excessive, that their remuneration is satisfactory to say the least and that they are replaceable.

ixoy wrote: »

So if technology is going to make it easier for them - and growing in sophistication - why the hell are they whinging about having to adapt to these new systems?

smellslikeshoes

Alcatel wrote: »

If we were to hire in Europe for equally good ATC's, what would we have to pay? A lot less than 110,000EUR if we simply look to the UK, which isn't miles away from us in terms of living standards or costs.

Set the salaries people will work for, not just the people you have.

That works both ways, Spain isn't that far away from us either and have a look at the link previously posted in this thread http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article6991798.ece


Without us knowing what exactly the technological changes involve there is no way for us to know if the 6% increase they are looking for is warranted. But coming from my own personal point of view as someone with a PPL and have had to deal with them I can tell you right now that ATCs deserve every penny of what they earn.

neilthefunkeone

Fair enough it seems to be a fairly stressful job and they share responsibility along with piolts to see in planes safely.. But at €115,000 atm i dont see the need to be looking for increases..

Is this new technology they are arguing about going to up their daily work load? make their job unsafe to do? Endanger lives?

Heard yesterday and read today that Air traffic and passengers were down last quarter by 3% and expected to be down this year something like 900,000 passengers.. (Last word and Irish times..)

Not on same scale at all here but this quarter my dept are changing our os to Win7.. Now i can imagine my managers reaction if i refuse to use win7 and ask for a fairly large pay increase.. P45 and a boot in the arse...

ixoy

Galwegian44 wrote: »

Maybe because the statement began with "It is likely......". And put yourselves in their shoes, would you not do the same? I would.

For a change in technology? If people in IT wanted a pay increase for every new software or methodology employed, the industry would shut down over night. Did I moan when I had to re-learn a skillset when moving from Ant to Maven technologies? Of course not, I accepted it as progress and (rightly) thought of it as part of what's required for a job.
Do you think peope should be consulted over technology changes? Where does it end then? Do I get to complain if I'm moved desk and seek a re-settlement charge?

NOGMaxpower

Jasus,

This is a no brainer and I duno why you's all going on and on about it.

Q: Do they deserve high salaries??
A: Too right they do!

Q: Are they right to strike during a recession over 6% increase?
A: Too right they don't - Recession ring any bells?

Q: Should they agree to go back to work and review the 6% increase in 12 months time?
A: Logically yes - logic is tainted by greedy self serving Unions.

Q: Are we the people of Ireland a bunch of moaning fooks?
A: Too right we are.

Q: Is there any point to all these recession rants every day?
A: No.

Q: What should we be doing instead of ranting?
A: Get up stand up, stand up for your rights!

woodseb

NOGMaxpower wrote: »

Q: What should we be doing instead of ranting?
A: Get up stand up, stand up for your rights!

i'd rather the air traffic controllers just had a rant rather than standing up for their perceived rights.....

stereo_steve

NOGMaxpower wrote: »

Jasus,

This is a no brainer and I duno why you's all going on and on about it.

Q: Do they deserve high salaries??
A: Too right they do!

Q: Are they right to strike during a recession over 6% increase?
A: Too right they don't - Recession ring any bells?

Q: Should they agree to go back to work and review the 6% increase in 12 months time?
A: Logically yes - logic is tainted by greedy self serving Unions.

Q: Are we the people of Ireland a bunch of moaning fooks?
A: Too right we are.

Q: Is there any point to all these recession rants every day?
A: No.

Q: What should we be doing instead of ranting?
A: Get up stand up, stand up for your rights!

I'd bet everything I have that you are a public servent

Eliot Rosewater

Tim Robbins, clearly you don't have a clue what your talking about. Saying that bus drivers or lifeguards hold as much responsibility as air traffic controllers. It would be funny if it weren't so perverse.

Id hate to be an air traffic controller. I imagine its a very stressful job. My godmothers husband was one. Lots of night shifts, working Christmas Eve, that kind of thing. Sounded like hell with all the responsibility.

It kind of makes me sad that you would try and dismiss the whole profession and those individuals just to support your anti-Union posture. Id bet that I'm more "anti-Union" than you and 95% of Boards. Im anti this strike, obviously, and anti any attempt for the Unions to hamper progress. Yet I wouldn't go saying such ridiculous things as you have just said to support my point of view.

stereo_steve wrote: »

I'd bet everything I have that you are a public servent

If hes not with you hes against you, right?

Japer

Galwegian44 wrote: »

This reminds me of the ATC strike in the USA in 1981 when Ronnie Reagan fired anyone who went on strike and replaced them....seems like a good precedent to me.

+1. Lots of people who work hard would like to have a six figure salary, and pension which cost their employer 30% of salary. Time the country got real. They are paid too much, not paid too little.

jmayo

ixoy wrote: »

For a change in technology? If people in IT wanted a pay increase for every new software or methodology employed, the industry would shut down over night. Did I moan when I had to re-learn a skillset when moving from Ant to Maven technologies? Of course not, I accepted it as progress and (rightly) thought of it as part of what's required for a job.
Do you think peope should be consulted over technology changes? Where does it end then? Do I get to complain if I'm moved desk and seek a re-settlement charge?

A few points here.
1. We don't really know what is the new technology and how is affects their working operations ?

2. Getting to grips with an ATC systems isn't like getting used to a new version of windows, a new DB or a new programmming system.
If you f*** up, misprogram settings, misinterprid a warning people could die and not in ones or twos but in the hundreds.
I remember a CAA switch over a few years back going horribly wrong and flights delayed all over the place. They had to roll back to old system.
Thankfully no accidents took place.
And no not new terminal at heathrow :rolleyes:

3. Sadly for all the fine work they do and all the stress they endure, they are public sector workers and are members of a union where it has long been the practice to look for remuneration & compensation everytime the members do have to change work practices however minor.

What pees me off about this thread is the total lack of cop on some posters are displaying as they rant about a profession of which they haven't the slightest idea of what it entails.
the comparisons are ludricrous.

I actually recall someone previously complaining (on thread on boards) that air accident investigators were being hired (public servants) and how they were vastly overpaid seeing that the job could be performed much cheaper by gardai who investigated road accidents after all. :rolleyes:

lind.

For God sake it's not like they are being asked to continue working for less pay they don't know how lucky they are

Tim Robbins

Eliot Rosewater wrote: »

Tim Robbins, clearly you don't have a clue what your talking about. Saying that bus drivers or lifeguards hold as much responsibility as air traffic controllers. It would be funny if it weren't so perverse.

Id hate to be an air traffic controller. I imagine its a very stressful job. My godmothers husband was one. Lots of night shifts, working Christmas Eve, that kind of thing. Sounded like hell with all the responsibility.

Working social hours isn't exactly a good argument.
Bouncers at nightclubs work similar hours.

I can't understand the highly emotive responses here. Facts are they get paid far less in the UK and we are been ripped off.

Don't give me the stress cr*p - most of use work twice the hours in stressful jobs.

And there are plenty of jobs which directly involve people's life's.

So the only differentiating factor can be the complexity of an ATC vis a vi a lifeguard or a fireman.

The complexity is mainly handled by the software, there's no way they are doing applied maths equations in their heads.

In fact, I doubt the complexity they are involved is beyond first year engineering. Perhaps anyone who disagrees could give an example of a mathematical problem they have to work out in their head.

Things like bad airport design surely adds to the complexity and the stress. But it makes much more sense to design airports correctly to minimize this complexity.

Eliot Rosewater

Whatever. If your going to let your anti-Union dogma dictate the currently ridiculous terms of this discussion then Ive no interest in posting here. I know your trying really really hard to think that Air Traffic Controlling is an easy job so that it will fall right into line with your anti-Union position, but life isn't so black and white unfortunately.

Tim Robbins

Eliot Rosewater wrote: »

Whatever. If your going to let your anti-Union dogma dictate the currently ridiculous terms of this discussion then Ive no interest in posting here. I know your trying really really hard to think that Air Traffic Controlling is an easy job so that it will fall right into line with your anti-Union position, but life isn't so black and white unfortunately.

Why are you putting me in a "anti-union dogma" box?

If all you want to do is put someone who disagrees with you in some facile box well then why are you wasting both of our times.

sold

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Spare a thought for the poor air traffic controllers. There poor victims of the recession are on 115K a year and a pension and should be getting more money because they are doing something new in their job and are due a 6% rise.

They must be the highest paid technicians in the world. The poor things.

Absolute and utter disgrace!!, Totally no support from me, underworked and overpaid. Holding the country to ransom to get their way.

CityCentreMan

I think that the most important issue here is being overlooked.

Regardless of the incredibly generous salaries enjoyed by the ATC's relative to most other people, I think that the real issue here is the fact that they have abused their right to take industrial action and as a result have seriously damaged our economy, inconvenienced thousands of people and caused hundreds of individuals & businesses to suffer unneccessary costs which they can ill afford.

This propensity for the unions to take action regardless of the suffering of others must be addressed quickly by government as the alternative is a program of massive disruption to us, the public, at minimal cost to the unions.

Tim Robbins

CityCentreMan wrote: »

I think that the most important issue here is being overlooked.

Regardless of the incredibly generous salaries enjoyed by the ATC's relative to most other people, I think that the real issue here is the fact that they have abused their right to take industrial action and as a result have seriously damaged our economy, inconvenienced thousands of people and caused hundreds of individuals & businesses to suffer unneccessary costs which they can ill afford.

This propensity for the unions to take action regardless of the suffering of others must be addressed quickly by government as the alternative is a program of massive disruption to us, the public, at minimal cost to the unions.

Do you think they should be sacked? Like Reagan did with them,

I mean everyone is arguing their high salaries based on their responsibility. They certainly didn't give a cr*p about their responsibilities today - did they?

Nermal

"This job is stressful, I wouldn't do it"

"This job is worth X"

"Y job entails more/less responsibility than this"

All missing the point. You don't pay people what they or others think they deserve, you pay them the least you can get away with.

In this case, these people don't even need to be in Ireland, we should have outsourced this thing ages ago.

The_Honeybadger

lind. wrote: »

For God sake it's not like they are being asked to continue working for less pay they don't know how lucky they are

Actually the reason they refuse to cooperate with the new technology is that they are being asked to contribute to their pensions as they escaped the pension levy (semi-state), and their agreed pay rise (negotiated in the boom) is not being paid, that is also part of their problem. Doesnt excuse their actions of course but there is two sides to the story

jmayo

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Working social hours isn't exactly a good argument.
Bouncers at nightclubs work similar hours.

I can't understand the highly emotive responses here. Facts are they get paid far less in the UK and we are been ripped off.

Don't give me the stress cr*p - most of use work twice the hours in stressful jobs.

And there are plenty of jobs which directly involve people's life's.

So the only differentiating factor can be the complexity of an ATC vis a vi a lifeguard or a fireman.

The complexity is mainly handled by the software, there's no way they are doing applied maths equations in their heads.

In fact, I doubt the complexity they are involved is beyond first year engineering. Perhaps anyone who disagrees could give an example of a mathematical problem they have to work out in their head.

Things like bad airport design surely adds to the complexity and the stress. But it makes much more sense to design airports correctly to minimize this complexity.

You know the funny thing is that people (myself included) may agree with you that they don't deserve payrise, but by God the reasoning you are using for it has to be some of the most purile sh*** that has been posted around here in a long time.

Yes other people are responsible for people's life.
Surgeon is a good example, but if he/she makes a mistake one person may die.

Now if ATC has bad day, they can say route a small Embraer too close to the tail of a 747 and hey presto Embraer gets huge wake tubulence and falls out of the sky.
Guess what 70 people die.
Big fu**ing difference between one and 70.

One ATC in Switzerland was blamed for the mid air collison at FL 360 that resulted in 50 Russian kids dying on their way to holiday in Spain.
Now that could be called a bad day for the ATC, who get it was later stabbed to death by distraught father.

Nobody says they are doing high numerical analysis or geometry, but if they misread something and someone at other end doesn't spot it then things snowball and lo and behold lots of people can be brown bread.
Yes technology and collision avoidance systems have improved drastically but sh** still happens and there still needs to be a human aspect monitoring and relaying instructions.

Even as a small aircraft pilot approaching a busy airport/airfield you have to listen to the ATC chatter, but you only have to really remember your own instructions, try and visualise what maybe near you, but the controllers have to keep on top of everyone.

That also often includes the ones who can't properly speak English and maybe giving incorrect details with mispronunciation and even worse they have to deal with pilots who are in a hurry.

There is a great documentary on ATC at Newark airport, one of the worlds busiest.
I suggest you watch it if ever you get the chance.
To show how bad it can get the ground controllers are only allowed work 15 or 20 minutes at a stretch and then have to take a break because of stress and tension.
Now Dublin is no Newark, but next time you are there check out the frequency of aircraft movements.

FlutterinBantam

Methinks you doth protest too much!!

Air traffic Controller is a tough job- they are paid well to compensate.

What we have here is greedy Unions wanting to make a name for themselves by pushing out the boat.

This work stoppage is selfish,greedy and ill advised.

I'd love to see FR sue Impact and see where it takes us.

herya

jmayo wrote: »

Now if ATC has bad day, they can say route a small Embraer too close to the tail of a 747 and hey presto Embraer gets huge wake tubulence and falls out of the sky.
Guess what 70 people die.
Big fu**ing difference between one and 70.

Plus it falls down on a built up area - another dozen or two fatalities and many injured plus gazillion worth of losses in property, not to mention the aircraft itself.

Sure it's just like driving.

I remember watching a documentary on a plane crash in Poland back in the eighties. They crashed just 2-3 miles or so from the airport in a built up area, engine failure I think, everyone died. What was the most moving was one ATC's account on how they worked with the pilots to reroute the aircraft over a wood (to avoid dense estates nearby) once they knew they are not going to make it. There is a long trail of burnt and broken trees in the wood until this day but there were no casualties apart from those on board.

jmayo

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

Methinks you doth protest too much!!

Air traffic Controller is a tough job- they are paid well to compensate.

What we have here is greedy Unions wanting to make a name for themselves by pushing out the boat.

This work stoppage is selfish,greedy and ill advised.

I'd love to see FR sue Impact and see where it takes us.

Thost thou refer to me ?
(I'll bet that is wrong phrased )

FB if you read my posts they actaully make reference to fact that I actaully agree that they shouldn't be looking for wage hike and how the likes of Impact have habit of always looking for compensation money for least minor work practice change, etc.

What I do and have taken issue with is one posters purile attempts to belittle the job these people do and compare them to a lifeguard FFS or someone that just spents their day looking at a computer screen where some magical software does all the work.

Besides if you read any of my other politics posts you will find I am very anti union.

From recollection I believe you post on Aviation forum so I presume you have some idea about what they do and would see the above comparisons as pathetic.

Mr. Presentable

OP.
Sack the ATCs. Who's going to manage the flights in and out?

OP.
Compare the salary with other than the UK - their currency has lost 40% or so in the last few year. Compare with 5 years ago, maybe.

I don't want just any tom/dick/harry on 25k managing flights I'm on.

I don't agree with them striking for 6%, but neither do I agree with your mealy-mouthed attitude.