how many reservists/pdf play airsoft?

MacAonghusa

iceage wrote: »

If your a serving member of the DF, the wearing of your uniform off duty for no reason, especially charging around a field is a no-no...will find yourself at the wrong end of a bollocking.

Er, yeah. I didn't dispute that.

iceage

Rogue-Trooper wrote: »

With respect iceage, they did send a high-resolution picture of themselves wearing the gear, with their team name, to the largest worldwide airsoft publication for inclusion in their gallery.

Forgive my tardy reply, I'm having major comms issues, Eircom strikes again..

Thanks for that Rogue, I appreciate that and these guys are obviously not the sharpest knives in the drawer, either that or they don't give a sh!t about the public view of the sport or the rules. Airsoft Mags are generally viewed by Airsofter heads only though..this is the world wide now we're talking about and again, this can cast Airsoft in Ireland in a very poor light with both Joe public, the powers that be..and now also with the DF...Again!!

Sites need to clamp down on this kind of behaviour, and frankly the IAA need to start kicking ass on it, revoke the odd membership and get really these guys attention.

gerrowadat

MacAonghusa wrote: »

They can't give you a bollocking unless you're DF personnel.

Well, you. if you're not personnell, then you -are- breaking the law :-)

Lemming

gerrowadat wrote: »

Well, you. if you're not personnell, then you -are- breaking the law :-)

As I understand it (so this is open to correction) from previous conversations that have been had on this subject (ad nauesum); one of the following two scenarios will occur:

1. You are DF personnel. It's the wrong end of a slapping for you - the result may vary depending on your CO and how much of an example the DF wish to make of you (or not) at the given moment.

2. You're not DF personnel. It'll be a case of "We're taking that back since it's not yours, it's ours" followed swiftly by "and here's the Gardai to ask you a few questions on the stolen items we've just taken back off you".


If I were in the army, I would go out of my way to a) hide the fact I like airsoft, and b) make sure I do not get singled out by my superiors as somebody to "watch" for all the wrong reasons. Being somebody subject to the law of the land, It's a no-brainer that I do not wish to end up dealing with the Gardai for the wrong reasons. So I'll take neither option if it's all the same. And I can't udnerstand why somebody would wish to risk the above (assuming it's correct) over a game.

gerrowadat

Well put, Lemming. So, while it might not be black-and-white 'illegal' in all cases, it's still a stupid idea (although that doesn't stop a lot of airsofters for some reason).

MacAonghusa

gerrowadat wrote: »

Well, you. if you're not personnell, then you -are- breaking the law :-)

edit: isn't that a contradiction of your previous post "It's not 'illegal' as such"

gerrowadat

MacAonghusa wrote: »

edit: isn't that a contradiction of your previous post "It's not 'illegal' as such"

It's not illegal if you're in the DF, it's just against regs.

It is illegal if you're not in the DF, since you're impersonating at worst, and handling stolen property (i.e. you don't have the minister for defence's permission to take it) at best.

Shiva

MacAonghusa wrote: »

What law specifically?

I don't know the specific laws or DF regulations, but if you think about it logically...

If you're DF personnel, you're forbidden to wear it unless in the course of official duty. That rules out airsoft.

If you're not DF personnel, you're in possession of stolen property, because serving DF members can't sell or dispose of their kit, and they have to hand it back when they leave. It remains the property of the DF.

Either way, you're breaking a law or army regulation.

Also, from speaking to DF members who come into the shop, it pisses a lot of soldiers (even those who play airsoft) off no end to see people wearing it when they arent entitled, and pisses a lot of them off even more to see airsofters wearing it while playing.

EDIT. What Dave said, only he said it in less words.
Oh god.
I'm becoming Doc.

iceage

Originally Posted by Defence Act Section 264

264.—(1) If any person (not being a member of the Defence Forces) wears, without permission granted by or on behalf of the Minister, any uniform of the Defence Forces or any colourable imitation thereof, such person shall be guilty of an offence under this section and shall be liable on summary conviction thereof to a fine not exceeding ten pounds or, at the discretion of the court, to imprisonment for any term not exceeding three months.

(2) Subsection (1) of this section shall not apply in respect of the wearing of any uniform of the Defence Forces or any colourable imitation thereof in the course of a stage play or other dramatic representation or performance.

(3) In this section the word "uniform" includes any distinctive part of a uniform.

These are the points as to the wearing of said uniform.

iceage

Law regarding purchasing the gear:

Quote:
[GA] Penalty for purchasing certain military property.
260.—(1) In this section, the expression "military property" means any property being—

( a ) any arms, ammunition (including bombs, grenades or similar missiles), equipment, instruments or clothing issued for the use of members of the Defence Forces, or

( b ) any military decoration of a member of the Defence Forces, or

( c ) any furniture, bedding, blankets, sheets, utensils or stores in military charge, or

( d ) any provisions or forage issued for the use of a member of the Defence Forces or his horse, or

( e ) any horse or vehicle employed in the service of the Defence Forces.

(2) ( a ) If any person—

(i) buys, exchanges, takes in pawn, obtains or receives from any person, on any pretence whatsoever, any military property, or

(ii) solicits or entices any person to sell, exchange, pawn or give away any military property, or

(iii) assists or acts for any person in selling, exchanging, pawning or making away with any military property,

such person shall be guilty of an offence under this section and shall be liable on summary conviction thereof to a fine not exceeding twenty pounds together with treble the value of any military property of which he has become possessed by means of the offence or, at the discretion, of the court, to imprisonment for any term not exceeding six months or to both such fine and imprisonment.

( b ) Where a person is charged with an offence under this section it shall be a good defence to prove that—

(i) at the time he did the act alleged in the charge, he was unaware that the property in respect of which the charge was made was in fact military property, or

(ii) the said property was sold by order or with the consent of the Minister or some competent military authority, or

(iii) the said property was the personal property of a person who had ceased to be a member of the Defence Forces or of the legal personal representatives of a deceased member of the Defence Forces.

(3) Where any military property is found in the possession or keeping of any person, such person may be brought or summoned before a Justice of the District Court, and if such Justice has reasonable ground to believe that the military property so found was stolen, or was bought, exchanged, taken in pawn, obtained or received in contravention of this section, then, if such person does not satisfy such Justice that he came by the military property so found lawfully and without any contravention of this Act, he shall be liable on summary conviction to the same penalties as are specified in subsection (2) of this section in the case of a contravention of that subsection.

(4) A person found committing an offence under this section may be arrested without warrant, and brought, together with the military property which is the subject of the offence, before a Justice of the District Court, and any person to whom any such property is offered to be sold, pawned or delivered, who has reasonable cause to suppose that the same is offered in contravention of this section, may arrest without warrant the person offering such military property and deliver him and such military property into the custody of a member of the Garda Síochána to be dealt with according to law.

(5) A Justice of the District Court, if satisfied on oath that there is reasonable cause to suspect that any person has in his possession or on his premises any military property on or with respect to which any offence in this section mentioned has been committed, may grant a warrant in search for such military property as in the case of stolen goods and any military property found on such search shall be seized by the person charged with the execution of such warrant, who shall bring the person in whose possession the same is found before some Justice of the District Court to be dealt with according to law.

(6) For the purposes of this section, military property shall be deemed to be in the possession or keeping of a person if he knowingly has it in the actual possession or keeping of any other person or in any house, building, lodging, apartment, field or place, open or enclosed, whether occupied by himself or not, and whether the same is so had for his own use or benefit or for the use or benefit of another.

Rew dug these up on an earlier thread....pretty much says it all really dunnit. :P

MacAonghusa

Shiva wrote: »

I don't know the specific laws or DF regulations, but if you think about it logically...

I don't disagree but I think it's important these things are clarified.
We can't (IMO) admonish people for illegal activity if we don't even know what law they are breaking.

MacAonghusa

iceage wrote: »

Originally Posted by Defence Act Section 264

264.—(1) If any person (not being a member of the Defence Forces) wears, without permission granted by or on behalf of the Minister, any uniform of the Defence Forces or any colourable imitation thereof, such person shall be guilty of an offence under this section and shall be liable on summary conviction thereof to a fine not exceeding ten pounds or, at the discretion of the court, to imprisonment for any term not exceeding three months.

"a fine not exceeding ten pounds"

Current regulations???

Lemming

MacAonghusa wrote: »

iceage wrote: »

Originally Posted by Defence Act Section 264

264.—(1) If any person (not being a member of the Defence Forces) wears, without permission granted by or on behalf of the Minister, any uniform of the Defence Forces or any colourable imitation thereof, such person shall be guilty of an offence under this section and shall be liable on summary conviction thereof to a fine not exceeding ten pounds or, at the discretion of the court, to imprisonment for any term not exceeding three months.

"a fine not exceeding ten pounds"

Current regulations???

What's difficult to understand about that section of the act? If you aren't a member of the DF, you really don't want to get caught wearing issued kit; to the tune of up to €10,000 and/or a short visit to MountJoy.

MacAonghusa

Lemming wrote: »

What's difficult to understand about that section of the act? If you aren't a member of the DF, you really don't want to get caught; to the tune of up to 10,000 and/or a short visit to MountJoy.

I just asked if it was current regulations.
Where did you get 10000?

Lemming

MacAonghusa wrote: »

I just asked if it was current regulations.
Where did you get 10000?

Ah, misread that as ten thousand for some reason. My bad. Apologies for that.

None the less, the three month visit to Mount Joy is still disincentive enough without being charged a tenner. Just a thought.

iceage

Open to correction here on this one, I'm sure I read somewhere of hefty fines upto a couple of grand. As I say, not up to speed on todays version of said laws.

All beside the point though, this has been dragged over and over again. Its illigal, don't do it, everyone knows it and if you do your a knob and pretty much asked for what you get.

Anyway.....Brit DPM is the dogs dangleys, EXCEPT for the new gear, have you seen it? .......I.....just...can't.....look.....at.....IT!!!!!! :?

MacAonghusa

Lemming wrote: »

Ah, misread that as ten thousand for some reason. My bad. Apologies for that.

None the less, the three month visit to Mount Joy is still disincentive enough without being charged a tenner. Just a thought.

To be honest I doubt there is a judge in the country who would send someone to the Joy for 3 months just for wearing a DF smock ... unless you tried to pass yourself off as a soldier.
I've never even heard of someone being arrested or fined for such a thing ... though admit I don't always read the papers.

Lemming

MacAonghusa wrote: »

To be honest I doubt there is a judge in the country who would send someone to the Joy for 3 months just for wearing a DF smock ... unless you tried to pass yourself off as a soldier.
I've never even heard of someone being arrested or fined for such a thing ... though admit I don't always read the papers.

Ever heard of a judge having a bad day? Or somebody up the food chain in the DF having a really bad day when the news is brought to them and they direct their legal team to "make an example with full prosecution"?

Do you want to take that risk for a game of airsoft?

No. Didn't think so.

If you answered "yes", then what I have to say will be censored by boards.ie, and you are free to do whatever you want so long as you don't drag airsoft down with you.

MacAonghusa

Lemming wrote: »

Ever heard of a judge having a bad day? Or somebody up the food chain in the DF having a really bad day when the news is brought to them and they direct their legal team to "make an example with full prosecution"?

I just don't see it happening TBH.

Personally i'm into flecktarn anyway

Rhinocharge

Leaving aside the possibility of prosecution for serving soldiers. The wearing of the uniform while off duty in an unoffical capacity ( anything other than travelling to and from the barracks ) is frowned by the brass and if they feel it so warrants a black mark can be put permanently on your service record.

For civilans, your looking at, at best having said uniform removed from your possession and at worst a custodial sentence. I have never heard of a custodial sentence being issued. The usual course of action is a long and uncomfortable chat with the authorities.

At the OP. Yes there are loads of PDF / RDF members playing airsoft.
Both serving and ex members and not only Irish soldiers, there are loads of ex-service personnel whom play for the craic.

KonFusion

Rhinocharge wrote: »

At the OP. Yes there are loads of PDF / RDF members playing airsoft.
Both serving and ex members and not only Irish soldiers, there are loads of ex-service personnel whom play for the craic.

Indeed, I've 5 rdf members in the college airsoft society (2 are women, who use m4's, and the 3 lads use Styer AUG's ....it makes me laugh though I'm not sure why)

Also my uncle plays and is ex pdf, and I know one lad that regularly skirmishes with us who was in the South African army 10+ years, and he says that airsoft in Ireland is "too-dirty" haha

MacAonghusa

Rhinocharge wrote: »

At the OP. Yes there are loads of PDF / RDF members playing airsoft.

I'm surprised so many PDF personnel play, would they not just find it frustrating?

KonFusion

How so?

Rhinocharge

MacAonghusa wrote: »

I'm surprised so many PDF personnel play, would they not just find it frustrating?

Why? Airsoft is a game, it's played for fun. Leaving the tactical side out of it, it's fantastic fun and a good laugh. The fun part is what drew most of the community to the game. Serving soldiers are no different, they're human too.

MacAonghusa

KonFusion wrote: »

How so?

Range/accuracy of the guns for starters. Drives me mad sometimes.

Rhinocharge

MacAonghusa wrote: »

Range/accuracy of the guns for starters. Drives me mad sometimes.

Well the range is the same for everyone. If you want to propel a bb further aim slightly higher.
Regarding accuracy, maybe you need more practice. These are not precision made instruments, each model is different, to learn those differences you need to practice.

Leftyflip

Accuracy?? What's that?

I compensate for my sh*t aim with my stubbykiller, 11.1v lipo, boxmag combination*






*Leftyflip disapproves of this.

MacAonghusa

Rhinocharge wrote: »

Well the range is the same for everyone. If you want to propel a bb further aim slightly higher.
Regarding accuracy, maybe you need more practice. These are not precision made instruments, each model is different, to learn those differences you need to practice.

Range: not as simple as just aiming higher, the range is still very limited.
Accuracy: eh excuse me, it's not lack of practice, I know how to shoot.

The guns have pretty poor precision and at any significant distance wind also plays a huge part. I know the answer is to get in closer but I personally find that annoying. Each to his own and all that.

MacAonghusa

Leftyflip wrote: »

I compensate for my sh*t aim with my stubbykiller, 11.1v lipo, boxmag combination*

Which is another thing I find slightly frustrating.
No such thing as "counting your rounds" in airsoft.
The only ammo conservation is "hmm, i've only 2500 rounds left, maybe i'll take it easy this game and only use 2 high caps"

OzCam

I despair that we have to keep repeating the same thing over and over and over.

The problem isn't that wearing Defence Forces property (whether you're doing it as a tribute* or you just can't be bothered picking up ex-issue British or German gear) is a huge moral issue, it's that persistently doing what you've been told not to do umpteen times is taking the f'ing piss. And therefore showing disrespect to the Army.

We get away with running around in uniforms and carrying replica firearms because we do it in private and away from public view. Our chance to do so can be taken away if we don't value and protect it.

For those who can't be arsed reading the legal language**, here's a summary in Plain English:

• If you're in the DF, you can't wear the uniform except on duty. You also have to wear all of it, in accordance with Dress Regulations.
• If you're not in the DF, impersonating a member (or a Garda) is a serious offence.
• Unauthorised possession of State Property is illegal.
• Wearing the uniform of a foreign power without permission in writing from the Department of Foreign Affairs is also illegal.
• IANAL, but I'm pretty sure you could also be done under conduct likely to cause a breach of the peace.

Nitpicking and arguing the fine details of these laws is not the issue; the point is that some day the powers that be are going to get sufficiently annoyed to take action and make an example of someone, and we don't want airsoft to be in the firing line when that happens.

A fine of a tenner isn't going to put a massive dent in anyone's life these days. An arrest, a spell in the pokey, a day in court and all over the papers, and getting a criminal record is another matter entirely.


* I know at least one airsofter who went to great lengths to – legally – do a pretty accurate impression of current DF loadout. But they're smart enough to not cause trouble by parading around in it and sending photos off to magazines. At least some people have their heads screwed on.
** Thanks to Ice, Rew etc. for the citations, saved.

Leftyflip

MacAonghusa wrote: »

Which is another thing I find slightly frustrating.
No such thing as "counting your rounds" in airsoft.
The only ammo conservation is "hmm, i've only 2500 rounds left, maybe i'll take it easy this game and only use 2 high caps"

Midcaps FTW.

MacAonghusa

Leftyflip wrote: »

Midcaps FTW.

Not exactly "ammo-conservation".
I only use mids.

Hivemind187

MacAonghusa wrote: »

Not exactly "ammo-conservation".
I only use mids.

Then buy a GBB, count your rounds and shut up about it.

MacAonghusa

Hivemind187 wrote: »

Then buy a GBB, count your rounds and shut up about it.

if everyone did that perhaps we'd have a more interesting, skillful game.

Inari

No you wouldn't. It's not the equipment, it's the players. You can count your rounds now, you can use low caps, you can use bolt snipers, you can use whatever device you like, and you can make it as accurate as possible, have the best trigger response, and of course you CAN toss all of that out the window, turn the device on full auto and keep your itchy finger on that trigger.

Can is the key word, adn the ignored word. If you want a better, more skillfull game, organise one. It wouldn't take much, and you could see the difference. Not everyone wants to play realistically, some would prefer to play their favourite game in RL (I'm not saying this is a bad thing; it's all personal choice).

.22 Lover

Is'nt that called Milsim?

gerrowadat

.22 Lover wrote: »

Is'nt that called Milsim?

Limited Ammo is not Milsim.

MacAonghusa

Inari wrote: »

No you wouldn't. It's not the equipment, it's the players. You can count your rounds now, you can use low caps, you can use bolt snipers, you can use whatever device you like, and you can make it as accurate as possible, have the best trigger response, and of course you CAN toss all of that out the window, turn the device on full auto and keep your itchy finger on that trigger.

Can is the key word, adn the ignored word. If you want a better, more skillfull game, organise one. It wouldn't take much, and you could see the difference. Not everyone wants to play realistically, some would prefer to play their favourite game in RL (I'm not saying this is a bad thing; it's all personal choice).

Right. I don't think you get it but doesn't matter.
Each to his own at the end of the day.

thermo

There is IMO no need the know how many DF members are players,
the reality is there are a few. most real world tactics don't apply as airsoft is a different kettle of fish to real war.

Inari

@MacAonghusa: If I've missed the point, which by your post I celarly have, would you mind explaining it to me? From what I read of yours and lefty's replies was that if everyone bought GBB's, counted how much ammo they were using that the game would be more skillfull and interesting. My point was that you can already do that, without the need of buying equipment. And that the thing that limits the skillful interesting play is peoples own individual mindsets, and to combat that you just need to organise your own event/gathering/skirmish.

Apologies for off topic post

tonyj_mc

just to steer back on topic two on our team and i know of at least three other who play regularly

dazo

2 active reservists
1 ex reservist
1 ex swiss soldier

Leftyflip

Inari wrote: »

@MacAonghusa: If I've missed the point, which by your post I celarly have, would you mind explaining it to me? From what I read of yours and lefty's replies was that if everyone bought GBB's, counted how much ammo they were using that the game would be more skillfull and interesting. My point was that you can already do that, without the need of buying equipment. And that the thing that limits the skillful interesting play is peoples own individual mindsets, and to combat that you just need to organise your own event/gathering/skirmish.

Apologies for off topic post

Please tell me where I said that you should buy a GBBr and count your ammo.

dazo

thermo wrote: »

There is IMO no need the know how many DF members are players,
the reality is there are a few. most real world tactics don't apply as airsoft is a different kettle of fish to real war.

and surely in milsim army tactics such as movement and handsignals from the military can be used for this why even in large skirmish sites movement of an arrow head formation is ideal.

thermo

dazo wrote: »

and surely in milsim army tactics such as movement and handsignals from the military can be used for this why even in large skirmish sites movement of an arrow head formation is ideal.

I didn't say field craft and comms didn't translate over.
In 90% of games iv played there is no provision for the likes of;
HMG's
GPMG's
artillery/ mortors
armour
anti-armour weapons
airstrikes
tactics are based (among other factors) on the weapons you have at your disposal. You can't use tactics that rely on equipment you don't have, and some tactics are not usable due to the short engagement distances, and trying to be "fair"........
Imagine trying to do a NATO "T" in airsoft!

Inari

@Lefty: You said "Then buy a GBB, count your rounds and shut up about it" to Mac, and he said if everyone did then it might be a more interesting and skillfull game. I then posted that it wouldn't because it's the players, not the equipment, was told I missed the point (which clearly I have/had), so then asked the point to be explained...purely because I rather learning than being blissfully ignorant:) Apologies if you feel I put words in your mouth with my paraphrasing

PS: Once again, sorry for off topic-ness.

dazo

thermo wrote: »

I didn't say field craft and comms didn't translate over.
In 90% of games iv played there is no provision for the likes of;
HMG's
GPMG's
artillery/ mortors
armour
anti-armour weapons
airstrikes
tactics are based (among other factors) on the weapons you have at your disposal. You can't use tactics that rely on equipment you don't have, and some tactics are not usable due to the short engagement distances, and trying to be "fair"........
Imagine trying to do a NATO "T" in airsoft!

ha ha the last time i seen the nato t been done was on recruits doing two star training the enemy where officers but open fire far to soon it turned into the grand national watching recruits charge the officers jumping ditches in the pitch black ha ha aw the n ato t world war 1 tactics only in ireland
but still like the gpmg is a support weapon and organised teams some times carry support weapons so in that case using the term fsg or the hand signals will come into play i know theres no hmg or airstricks in airsoft but you dont have to take in all army warfare into the matchs but i cant hurt to know some of the stuff. and im sure the foxtrot lads have used there own british tactics from time to time on a skirmish or milsim.

extremetaz

dazo wrote: »

ha ha the last time i seen the nato t been done was on recruits doing two star training the enemy where officers but open fire far to soon it turned into the grand national watching recruits charge the officers jumping ditches in the pitch black ha ha aw the n ato t world war 1 tactics only in ireland
but still like the gpmg is a support weapon and organised teams some times carry support weapons so in that case using the term fsg or the hand signals will come into play i know theres no hmg or airstricks in airsoft but you dont have to take in all army warfare into the matchs but i cant hurt to know some of the stuff. and im sure the foxtrot lads have used there own british tactics from time to time on a skirmish or milsim.

Dude PLEASE - PUNCTUATION!!!

that is damned near impossible to read.


@Inari - that was hivemind dude, not lefty.


@Mac - RoE uses realcap.

dazo

Sorry in college teacher watching my screen like a hawk just rushed it.

Poccington

dazo wrote: »

ha ha the last time i seen the nato t been done was on recruits doing two star training the enemy where officers but open fire far to soon it turned into the grand national watching recruits charge the officers jumping ditches in the pitch black ha ha aw the n ato t world war 1 tactics only in ireland
but still like the gpmg is a support weapon and organised teams some times carry support weapons so in that case using the term fsg or the hand signals will come into play i know theres no hmg or airstricks in airsoft but you dont have to take in all army warfare into the matchs but i cant hurt to know some of the stuff. and im sure the foxtrot lads have used there own british tactics from time to time on a skirmish or milsim.

Why were Recruits doing a NATO T?

Also if troops in World War 1 were doing deliberate night attacks after being led into position by Recce Platoon's, I'll eat my hat.

As for the Irish DPM carry on, it's illegal to wear it. Simple enough really.