Girls Clan [G!RL]

everlast75

BRDS Vs G!RL match?










(ducks for cover) :pac::pac::pac:

Procasinator

liah wrote: »

Um, gee, I dunno-- merit? Skill? Talent? The exact same things the boys get evaluated on?

Anything else is patronizing.

I like watching Chris Smoove, but I wouldn't really judge him on skill and talent. His just entertaining.

But I think you have missed my point, in that I agree that a player should be evaluated on there skill and talent. But, at the moment girls don't appear to be the top dogs in the gaming world. This won't happen to you get a critical mass, and I think the likes of girl clans will help get this (as well as marketing from game companies, or games more attractive to bother genders).

liah wrote: »

By 'exposure' I mean not only in competitive gaming but simply social gaming community exposure.

In competitive gaming there should be no other reason than merit and skill that anyone should be popular. Again, anything else is absolutely patronizing.

In social gaming, it requires individual girls to go out and game with the guys to show them that we're not only our gender but genuine people who can be talked to in the same way as the other guys.

Yeah, but there isn't enough individuals in the social gaming sphere to really make a difference. Again, I think girl clans will help this. Guys can still talk to these girls in the lobbies, too, of course. And just because a girl plays in a clan, doesn't mean she won't be active individually. If anything, I would imagine it would improve the confidence of some to venture out and be vocal.

liah wrote: »

It doesn't matter what they play against. It's the fact that they're only socializing with themselves. I don't know if you've played competitively (in leagues or just scrims/unofficials) or not, but there's typically not much socializing done with teams you're playing against outside of organizational purposes before/after the match unless you have prior friendly history with the members.

It's essentially putting it to an 'us vs. them' scenario which I don't think is right or good for the future of girls online.

I don't play competitively, but I don't really think that competive play is what is need to get more girls in, at the moment. It doesn't really have much of an impact on bring girls into gaming. And I think if a girl clan was good, and got noticed, they would get more exposure than that of a girl stuck with a group of lads.

liah wrote: »

Which I don't agree with unless the girls are genuine competitors for the lads. I'm a believer of merit over novelty and promoting people simply because of their gender with no regard for their actual merit in the field strikes me as counterproductive.

This does not mean that girls cannot have role models, in fact it means their role models will be genuinely talented people, moreso than they would be if they were chosen simply by gender, and I think that's a far more enticing prospect.

Highlighting girls because they're girls also serves to make males incredibly bitter, as evidenced by large amounts of debate over tGC and tLL on various topics, since there's no alternative for men, men have to gain recognition through merit alone making it much harder for them and for that their bitterness can be justified. I'd be angry too if I saw guys getting recognized simply for the fact that they possess a penis.

A girl clan won't get recongnised in competive gaming unless they are worthy competitor. They will get noticed in other arenas, but the reasons you get noticed in other arenas can be many anyhow (funny commentator, prankster, good player, etc).

liah wrote: »

I seriously doubt girl clans bring in further girls, if anything they're there to appeal to guys, at least most of the corporate-sponsored teams. For non-corporate-sponsored teams, the girls would have to be playing the game to begin with to find out about them, really.

I'm not saying girl clans will bring in bucket load of girls, but they are surely more likely to bring in more girls than if they didn't exist at all.

liah wrote: »

Um, gee, I dunno-- merit? Skill? Talent? The exact same things the boys get evaluated on?

Anything else is patronizing.

I like watching Chris Smoove, but I wouldn't really judge him on skill and talent. His just entertaining.

But I think you have missed my point, in that I agree that a player should be evaluated on there skill and talent. But, at the moment girls don't appear to be the top dogs in the gaming world. This won't happen to you get a critical mass, and I think the likes of girl clans will help get this (as well as marketing from game companies, or games more attractive to bother genders).

liah wrote: »

By 'exposure' I mean not only in competitive gaming but simply social gaming community exposure.

In competitive gaming there should be no other reason than merit and skill that anyone should be popular. Again, anything else is absolutely patronizing.

In social gaming, it requires individual girls to go out and game with the guys to show them that we're not only our gender but genuine people who can be talked to in the same way as the other guys.

Yeah, but there isn't enough individuals in the social gaming sphere to really make a difference. Again, I think girl clans will help this. Guys can still talk to these girls in the lobbies, too, of course. And just because a girl plays in a clan, doesn't mean she won't be active individually. If anything, I would imagine it would improve the confidence of some to venture out and be vocal.

liah wrote: »

It doesn't matter what they play against. It's the fact that they're only socializing with themselves. I don't know if you've played competitively (in leagues or just scrims/unofficials) or not, but there's typically not much socializing done with teams you're playing against outside of organizational purposes before/after the match unless you have prior friendly history with the members.

It's essentially putting it to an 'us vs. them' scenario which I don't think is right or good for the future of girls online.

I don't play competitively, but I don't really think that competive play is what is need to get more girls in, at the moment. It doesn't really have much of an impact on bring girls into gaming. And I think if a girl clan was good, and got noticed, they would get more exposure than that of a girl stuck with a group of lads.

liah wrote: »

Which I don't agree with unless the girls are genuine competitors for the lads. I'm a believer of merit over novelty and promoting people simply because of their gender with no regard for their actual merit in the field strikes me as counterproductive.

This does not mean that girls cannot have role models, in fact it means their role models will be genuinely talented people, moreso than they would be if they were chosen simply by gender, and I think that's a far more enticing prospect.

Highlighting girls because they're girls also serves to make males incredibly bitter, as evidenced by large amounts of debate over tGC and tLL on various topics, since there's no alternative for men, men have to gain recognition through merit alone making it much harder for them and for that their bitterness can be justified. I'd be angry too if I saw guys getting recognized simply for the fact that they possess a penis.

A girl clan won't get recongnised in competive gaming unless they are worthy competitor. They will get noticed in other arenas, but the reasons you get noticed in other arenas can be many anyhow (funny commentator, prankster, good player, etc).

liah wrote: »

And you're right, clans do do those things. But you can do those things just as well with guys as you can with girls. The segregation makes no difference at all. As I stated earlier most guy teams would be happy to take on a girl.

I'd argue that girls are more likely to have gaming friends as some guys will do anything to befriend a gamer girl.

They are gotta get a lot of friend requests from guys, but some girls don't like this (and actively don't avoid displaying they are a girl). I can't confirm, but I bet you the girl I linked to before (Miss Danielle) has more female subscribers than a male who has a similar number of subscribers.

liah wrote: »

Look, the crux of it is-- should girls be getting into gaming and getting into girl clans because they're girls or because they genuinely enjoy the game and/or want to actually compete and have skill?

In the first case, sure, gender's relevant. But I'd argue this is a very negative image to be setting.

In the second case there's no relevancy for gender and gives girls more positive aspirations rather than simply resigning themselves to the fact that they're girls and therefore will only be evaluated on that fact.

I think they should do whatever the please. Having girl clans doesn't mean girls can't join other clans, lets not forget. This isn't like many sports, where you can only compete with your gender.

liah wrote: »

Girl clans perpetuate this by basing their appeal on their gender rather than their talent.

By appeal, you mean other clans/gamers, or to other potential members? For the former, they might not necessary want to appeal to other gamers. For the later, I have no problem with that.

liah wrote: »

So you seriously cannot understand any of my points?

I can understand your points, but I don't really agree with them.
You seem to have the assumption that a girl clan will be poor players, will love the attention, and will anger male players. That because they segregate themselves, they won't get noticed.

My point is that what you consider bad publicity is better than no publicity, and I believe that this bad publicity will be beneficial to girls in the long run as I believe it will help draw in more girl gamers.

I also think if girls want to play together for the fun of it, they should feel free to do so. Guys can do the same if they want, but there isn't really any novelty in that.

liah

Procasinator wrote: »

I like watching Chris Smoove, but I wouldn't really judge him on skill and talent. His just entertaining.

But I think you have missed my point, in that I agree that a player should be evaluated on there skill and talent. But, at the moment girls don't appear to be the top dogs in the gaming world. This won't happen to you get a critical mass, and I think the likes of girl clans will help get this (as well as marketing from game companies, or games more attractive to bother genders).

(just going to copy/paste)

Er, in fairness, there's no females with equivalent skill in those things because women haven't had the same amount of opportunities to break out nor the reasons to be top of their fields-- mainly because of this kind of 'well, you're a girl and you're alright so that's good enough' crap.

I guarantee you women are just as good as men, they just don't have a reason to be because of the crutch given simply for the fact that they're women. Women who don't understand true equality love this crutch because it means they get the same results with less effort. Women who do understand true equality hate this because it's, frankly, insulting.

Unfortunately since the majority of people are only concerned with what concerns them they have no idea that the impact of them using that crutch will spread to not only our image as a gender but us ourselves in how we evaluate ourselves.

Yeah, but there isn't enough individuals in the social gaming sphere to really make a difference. Again, I think girl clans will help this. Guys can still talk to these girls in the lobbies, too, of course. And just because a girl plays in a clan, doesn't mean she won't be active individually. If anything, I would imagine it would improve the confidence of some to venture out and be vocal.

Actually, there's loads of girls. Almost as many as guys. At least, that's how it was when I was playing. Playing up gender just makes it seem like far more of a novelty than it really is.

Girls being seen as a novelty is detrimental for an incredible amount of reasons-- competitive, social, esteem, and so on.

I don't play competitively, but I don't really think that competive play is what is need to get more girls in, at the moment. It doesn't really have much of an impact on bring girls into gaming. And I think if a girl clan was good, and got noticed, they would get more exposure than that of a girl stuck with a group of lads.

Competitive play is the only thing that generates media interest. It is vital that girls get into competitive play for the right reasons to set a genuine role model rather than one who's simply there because she's hot or because she's moderately good in general but great 'for a girl.'

Girl clans have no incentive to be good because of this idiotically reinforced stereotype.

Basically, I and a hell of a lot of other girls would have FAR more respect for a girl who plays with the guys and plays well and still manages to shine at or above their level for her personal strength and merit and skill as a player than a girl who's part of a girl clan and gets recognized because.. well, she's a girl. Whoopee.

A girl clan won't get recongnised in competive gaming unless they are worthy competitor. They will get noticed in other arenas, but the reasons you get noticed in other arenas can be many anyhow (funny commentator, prankster, good player, etc).

There's plenty of girl clans that get recognized in competitive gaming who aren't genuinely worthy competitors.

I'm not saying girl clans will bring in bucket load of girls, but they are surely more likely to bring in more girls than if they didn't exist at all.

Perhaps, but is it for the right reasons?

They are gotta get a lot of friend requests from guys, but some girls don't like this (and actively don't avoid displaying they are a girl). I can't confirm, but I bet you the girl I linked to before (Miss Danielle) has more female subscribers than a male who has a similar number of subscribers.

My intention wasn't to state that they had to accept all requests, simply that the opportunity is certainly there for them to easily make friends.

I'm not sure what the Miss Danielle bit has to do with anything.

I think they should do whatever the please. Having girl clans doesn't mean girls can't join other clans, lets not forget. This isn't like many sports, where you can only compete with your gender.

It does in competitive gaming, I've never heard of a respectable league that allows multi-clanning. Even very few pub clans allow multi-clanning. Unless you mean joining one team, quitting, and then joining a different one.

By appeal, you mean other clans/gamers, or to other potential members? For the former, they might not necessary want to appeal to other gamers. For the later, I have no problem with that.

I mean in general.

I can understand your points, but I don't really agree with them.
You seem to have the assumption that a girl clan will be poor players, will love the attention, and will anger male players. That because they segregate themselves, they won't get noticed.

I have been gaming online for the last 6-7 years. I've been on girl teams, guy teams, pub teams, competitive teams. I've spent hundreds of hours on forums and IRC and league and clan websites. I have played with people from all over North America and Europe in both casual and competitive settings.

I am speaking from experience, and from what I have learned from observation and my own experience as a female.

I have never seen an all-girl clan who can hold their own against a top all-male clan, but I have seen many individual girls do incredibly well on mixed teams.

They get noticed, but not for the right reasons. They get noticed because they're girls. That in and of itself is irrational in a gaming community. Girls are everywhere, why should they be special? Why should it warrant attention? Shouldn't merit be put upon the individual's personality than their genitalia?

I am really not sure how I can explain this any better. It is reinforcing a negative stereotype. It allows girls to coast on the fact that they're girls and forever remain mediocre because they don't NEED to be top of the field, they get twice the attention for just having boobs, it makes guys see girls as an entirely separate entity which results in ignorance being thrown our way.

I'm not saying there should be no girl clans. I'm saying that girls should break away from segregation and attempt to make people realize that we are NOT a novelty.

My point is that what you consider bad publicity is better than no publicity, and I believe that this bad publicity will be beneficial to girls in the long run as I believe it will help draw in more girl gamers.

Agree to disagree then, I think this kind of bad publicity reinforces a negative stereotype of women being lesser than men and therefore need to be given advantages and placed upon a pedestal because they're inferior without these things.

I also think if girls want to play together for the fun of it, they should feel free to do so. Guys can do the same if they want, but there isn't really any novelty in that.

Exactly. The only difference is novelty. That difference should not exist in a truly equal gaming atmosphere.

I don't care if girls get together and game for the craic, or it just happens to be a team of genuinely skilled female players who are female more by coincidence than anything else, but the majority of them love to make a statement about the fact that they're girls simply to gain attention and it's that simple fact that reflects poorly on the rest of us.

Procasinator

Just going to cherry pick quotes, as I don't have much time.

liah wrote: »

Actually, there's loads of girls. Almost as many as guys. At least, that's how it was when I was playing. Playing up gender just makes it seem like far more of a novelty than it really is.

Really? There is almost the same amount of girls playing CoD as there are guys? I'd be suprised.

liah wrote: »

Competitive play is the only thing that generates media interest.

I would have imagined that competitive play doesn't have that much effect on gaming numbers. People pick up video games to have fun. Many are not even aware competitive play (as in, professional gaming) exists.

liah wrote: »

I'm not sure what the Miss Danielle bit has to do with anything.

My point was that I bet you that that a girl gamer on YouTube would garner more interest from girls than a male one, in portion to their subscriber number. If this assumption is true, too me it would signify that too many girls, seeing other girls play video games is important and interesting. This will help draw in more players.

liah wrote: »

It does in competitive gaming, I've never heard of a respectable league that allows multi-clanning. Even very few pub clans allow multi-clanning. Unless you mean joining one team, quitting, and then joining a different one.

Nope, sorry, I meant separate girls. I meant that just because some girls are in all-girl clans, doesn't mean all girls have to be. Girls can play and/or compete however the see fit.

In summary, I don't think girls presence in many gaming communities will be noticed until there is more of them. There has to be a critical mass, where girls on all levels, from noob to pro, are seen. Without this, even if a girl is a superb player, she will be seen as the outlier. I think girl clans, along with other initiatives, will in the long run change this landscape.

liah

Procasinator wrote: »

Really? There is almost the same amount of girls playing CoD as there are guys? I'd be suprised.

Kind of forgot this was the CoD forum. I'm speaking about gaming in general, really. The game I played was a popular CS modification and there were loads of girls, particularly 'undercover' ones.

I also run into quite a few 'out' girls in L4D2.

I'd say that it's about 1/3 female as a whole at this stage, maybe even higher if you just talk about console gaming as PC gaming isn't quite as popular with girls (though, that said, the game I played was PC-only).

I would have imagined that competitive play doesn't have that much effect on gaming numbers. People pick up video games to have fun. Many are not even aware competitive play (as in, professional gaming) exists.

Competitive play is the only thing that can generate media interest, and if these sorts of mediocre all-girl teams are being lauded as 'great, for girls' then that's negative, was more my point with that statement.

Numbers come organically, either people take interest or they don't, and the dominant source is kind of unknown at this stage. Most people, male or female, play because their friends play, if you want to get right down to it. Or they see a commercial for the game.

My point was that I bet you that that a girl gamer on YouTube would garner more interest from girls than a male one, in portion to their subscriber number. If this assumption is true, too me it would signify that too many girls, seeing other girls play video games is important and interesting. This will help draw in more players.

So? How is that relevant? Just because a female would garner more interest doesn't mean it's for the right reasons and doesn't mean it doesn't help to perpetuate a negative stereotype.

All it would really signify is that there's an awful lot of people who don't really analyze their actions or the actions of others or think about the bigger picture and sure that's hardly anything new.

Nope, sorry, I meant separate girls. I meant that just because some girls are in all-girl clans, doesn't mean all girls have to be. Girls can play and/or compete however the see fit.

Ah right, fair enough. I agree, more or less, I just don't like the fashion in which they go about it and I don't like at ALL what it means as a result for me.

In summary, I don't think girls presence in many gaming communities will be noticed till there is more of them. There has to be a critical mass, where girls on all levels, from noob to pro, are seem. Without this, even if a girl is a superb player, she will be seen as the outlier. I think girl clans, along with other initiatives, will in the long run change this landscape.

Girls are seen as outliers because they make themselves outliers by self-segregation and settling. They love the fact that they can get recognized without actually doing anything and don't want to give that up. They play up to the girl on the internet syndrome because they, individually, love the attention and don't understand the larger implications of their actions.

What is needed is girls just playing the game along with the lads to show them we're not outliers, we're not any different to them, we're not any lesser to them, we're not any better than them, we don't need these crutches and pedestals, and that we're not some alien species.

Not girls voluntarily segregating themselves using the crutch of their gender to gain notoriety and therefore making it more difficult for things to be genuinely equal for everyone.

We don't need extra advantages. We don't need to be seen as special because of the genitalia we're born with. We don't need to be put on a pedestal, we don't need to be seen as different, and the only way to do that is to stop making ourselves different!

Procasinator

I have mainly been talking about CoD, but considering it's popularity, I think it's important one to consider.

liah wrote: »

So? How is that relevant? Just because a female would garner more interest doesn't mean it's for the right reasons and doesn't mean it doesn't help to perpetuate a negative stereotype.

I should have done a better job of the connection the dots.

I agree with a lot of what you say (some girls love attention, novelty has to disappear, etc), but we disagree on how this is going to happen.

I believe there has to be a critical number: enough female players that gaming for girls is seen everyday, and more and more girls will play of their own accord and desire.

Girls playing for the right reasons doesn't really matter (especially because playing games can have multitude of reasons, winning is just the obvious one). It's about closing the gender gap. Because once you do, you will find girls excelling in games naturally. Until then, high-quality girls will be rarer (cause the numbers don't allow for it), and will be outliers (in literal statistics and in minds of others), regardless of the girls attitude, beliefs or personality.

And if girl clans help get more girls into gaming, that's a good start.

I also believe, that if girls have more fun/feel more comfortable playing with other girls (I'm talking casual gaming), then they should also go for it, and there is no harm. Their circle of influence is small, so I personally don't share the concerns of girls self-esteem and how they appear to guys, etc being affected as you do. It will also mean that these girls might get other girls involved, who might spread their wings a bit more.

Magill

liah wrote: »

Kind of forgot this was the CoD forum. I'm speaking about gaming in general, really. The game I played was a popular CS modification and there were loads of girls, particularly 'undercover' ones.

I also run into quite a few 'out' girls in L4D2.

I'd say that it's about 1/3 female as a whole at this stage, maybe even higher if you just talk about console gaming as PC gaming isn't quite as popular with girls (though, that said, the game I played was PC-only).

Nah its really not even close to 1/3 female, whatever mod it was you were playing... im sure the numbers are pretty much the same as they are for cs... and i'd be suprised if 1 in 10 players were female, even less on the competitive scene. On cod i'd also be suprised of anything other than a 80+ percent male playerbase.

Competitive play is the only thing that can generate media interest, and if these sorts of mediocre all-girl teams are being lauded as 'great, for girls' then that's negative, was more my point with that statement.

Competitive gaming is very small and its not getting any bigger, i'd argue that it has declined in the last 2 or 3 years. CS is still the daddy of competitive gaming(Starcraft is a one country game)... if you asked the question on this forum.. have you ever heard of SK gaming... or players like Neo or Forrest i'd say very few of them have. And most people on here would be keen gamers...

I really dont see how competitive play will ever help generate any type of exposure for female gamers, especially if you take away the female teams and competitions at the major events... because like i've said female gamers just cant hang with the guys.

GunnerG!RL

r3nu4l wrote: »

Drop the sexism and rape jokes please. Not funny. Thanks.

ty appreciate that!! thats kind of foolishness is why i will not post here again an for the rest maybe they'l see why it is there are all girl clans.. when you have to put up with such abuse just for being a good girl gamer then maybe people will realise its why the girls stick together its nothing about putting ourselves on a pedestal . Our clan gives girls a fun experience without all the judgement from others

JustPaddy1

Just thought i'd put this up here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fW8m9CI5J2U

xFidelityx

Any girls want to add me go ahead No boys please, you tend to be judgmental and pervy, thanks you

xBox: MoLlY MaLiCiOuS
PS3: xFidelityx

Caoimhin

I do know if this tread is still active, but here we go. Firstly I am male, but dont worry I wont be looking for a friend request as I know this is a females only clan. I have been gaming for a while now and have a few really good female players on PS3 who I used to play game battles with.
Throughout all my time on the ps3 I've ran into very little female players but have noticed since switching over to the PS4 , there seems to be a lot more girls playing this console and I have ran into most of them playing in the eSports rules playlist, if you have made the switch to ps4, give this playlist a go and make some friends. Generally its full of good people, hope this helps someone.