Procedure of De-Modding

tm2204

mayordenis wrote: »

Right now? nowhere.
Hopefully that can change though.

Then why is there nowhere right now?

Why can't we discuss this on a public forum?

Has there never been a case like this before or has 'Mr X' (can't mention his name :rolleyes:) set a precedent?

This is getting beyond a joke TBH...

mayordenis

tm2204 wrote: »

Why can't we discuss this on a public forum?

Many have died trying to get an answer to that question.

KevIRL

flahavaj wrote: »

At the end of the day, if Admins see fit to demod someone they don't have to/aren't going to justify it to anyone, .

This of course is true, the admins run the site and can do what they see fit. However if demoddings are to happen regulary in a manner so swift and disagreeable as a matter of course to mods that have given a lot of time for free to help on the site then I daresay the admins will find themselves with a lot less mods willing to moderate forums

_blank_

mdwexford wrote: »

Are you not just a normal mod,

Nope, mayordenis could not be described as normal.:pac:

Jazzy

BuffyBot wrote: »

I guess what people would like is some sort of disciplinary procedure for cases such as this? Almost like some kind of quasi-employment situation.

no, thats not what we'd like. we'd like admins to be a bit more human in situations like this and not so bloody formal.

it really is very simple. 'procedures' only get you so far. half the problems in this country is to do with 'procedures' and legislation and if you mirror the leadership on this site to that of the country, i can see why. clear as day

tm2204

mayordenis wrote: »

Many have died trying to get an answer to that question.

It's a serious question; didn't expect a flippant answer.

kryogen

BuffyBot wrote: »

I guess what people would like is some sort of disciplinary procedure for cases such as this? Almost like some kind of quasi-employment situation.

If democracy can't work - do we formalise the whole situation? But who then makes the ultimate desicion? What happens when we've reached the end of the line with any popular mod and people still don't like that decision?

It's not like we like being bad guys, or that we want to annoy people - but we have to strike as much of a balance as possible, and sometimes that involves making hard, unpopular choices.

If people can contributing to this thread can come up with some sort of "happy medium" solution, I'll happily present them to the rest of the Admin team for discussion - but we have to be realistic about what we can expect, and also the actions that we take.

in a case, no case in particular, where a mountain has been made out of a mole hill could there be no way that both parties could come to agreement without losing face?

insta de-modding is surely not the best course of action available?

And for example,if one admin is having a bad day or maybe mis reads a situation and makes a snap decision that they later re evaluate to be wrong, but will not be seen to back down, is this not counter productive?

surely time and thought and fair open minded debate between both sides in private is the best re course?

Overheal

kryogen wrote: »

the general attitude towards users on his site is getting more and more dismissive from certain groups, this can surely bring no good in the future?

in future when proposing or deciding to de-mod a mod surely the suggestion of asking the opinions of his/her fellow section mods and cat mods would be beneficiary as to get a clearer picture of the mods character which is of course what is under scrutiny during a de-modding no?

Which is what I suspect happens when a Cat Mod or group of forum Mods decides to elect a New Moderator. So yeah, I dont see why the same shouldnt apply to their De-Modding.

Jazzy wrote:

no, thats not what we'd like. we'd like admins to be a bit more human in situations like this and not so bloody formal.

it really is very simple. 'procedures' only get you so far. half the problems in this country is to do with 'procedures' and legislation and if you mirror the leadership on this site to that of the country, i can see why. clear as day

In fairness the whole site is basically a Social Experiment. Im fascinated to see how over time its gone from nigh Informal to a basic Requirement to introduce Formality and Procedure: Either through on-site incidents, or even Lawsuits.

BuffyBot

in future when proposing or deciding to de-mod a mod surely the suggestion of asking the opinions of his/her fellow section mods and cat mods would be beneficiary as to get a clearer picture of the mods character which is of course what is under scrutiny during a de-modding no?

Generally they are - and we do investigate and get deeper pictures when we need to

Would one of the Admins be able to post up the actual Procedure for an issue becoming a demodding?

A good question - the simple answer is that each case is examined on it's own merits and the context surrounding it.

~Is it really a case of make one decision admins disagree with and you're out?

No, it isn't. If it was, we'd have a lot less Mods

~Are there really no facilities in place to look at the broader contribution of a particular mod V's the actual incident said mod caused?

Yes we do - we look at many different aspects when it comes to a situation like this. We look at their contributions etc, be we also look as past incidents and interactions we've had with them.

~Is there actually on "thinking time" required for a decision this brash? Can someone really be demodded with immediate effect in cases where the offence clearly does not warrent it? (Obviously if a mod were to start posting p0rn around the place, they would need to go asap)

More thinking time than one might imagine. The problem is that by not de-modding someone, they have access to rights and tools which they can do damage with. We've seen it happen before - and while not everyone will do such a thing - the standard situation when someone is removed is to remove their rights completey.

mayordenis

BuffyBot wrote: »

I guess what people would like is some sort of disciplinary procedure for cases such as this? Almost like some kind of quasi-employment situation.

If democracy can't work - do we formalise the whole situation? But who then makes the ultimate desicion? What happens when we've reached the end of the line with any popular mod and people still don't like that decision?

No again your laying out completely unrealistic options, why must the 2 options be so far removed from eachother?
A happy medium, could easily be found in a case like this, but that is not your remit,

Lets take a hypothetical situation,

Lets say "Mod X" who is modding "forum Y" dabbles in what would be considered minor trolling,
Now lets say "Admin Z" decides to ask for an explanation, "Mod X" sends a very reasonable explanation but "Admin Z" takes the hump and a very rash quick decision is made.

now why is the only other option a "quasi-employment situation" as you call it? Surely that is counter productive, we would like a resolution, you surely (maybe not) would like a resolution but you only offer what seems like a joke, a bad joke.

And I really think it reflects incredibly poorly on your that you keep dragging up popularity, people don't support others simply because of popularity, sometimes it's because they support the correct course of action.

BuffyBot

And for example,if one admin is having a bad day or maybe mis reads a situation and makes a snap decision that they later re evaluate to be wrong, but will not be seen to back down, is this not counter productive?

That's why one Admin will rarely make desicion on something so serious alone. We discuss and look into it, and various people will express opinions of differing kinds.

surely time and thought and fair open minded debate between both sides in private is the best re course?

Generally, that's what we endeavour to do.

copacetic

BuffyBot wrote: »

I guess what people would like is some sort of disciplinary procedure for cases such as this? Almost like some kind of quasi-employment situation.

If democracy can't work - do we formalise the whole situation? But who then makes the ultimate desicion? What happens when we've reached the end of the line with any popular mod and people still don't like that decision?

It's not like we like being bad guys, or that we want to annoy people - but we have to strike as much of a balance as possible, and sometimes that involves making hard, unpopular choices.

If people can contributing to this thread can come up with some sort of "happy medium" solution, I'll happily present them to the rest of the Admin team for discussion - but we have to be realistic about what we can expect, and also the actions that we take.

I'd just expect mods to be treated fairly and honestly, much as you would hope users would be. They are held to a higher standard but are also treated at least as well, certainly not worse.

Once that happens you will generally find that you don't have half as many hard and unpopular choices to make. If that isn't done and most people can see that it isn't done, then it calls into question how boards is run imo.

We have built up quite a history of issues around this over the last year or so and it appears if anything we are going backwards in the handling of them, not forwards.

~Rebel~

BuffyBot wrote: »

I guess what people would like is some sort of disciplinary procedure for cases such as this? Almost like some kind of quasi-employment situation.

If democracy can't work - do we formalise the whole situation? But who then makes the ultimate desicion? What happens when we've reached the end of the line with any popular mod and people still don't like that decision?

It's not like we like being bad guys, or that we want to annoy people - but we have to strike as much of a balance as possible, and sometimes that involves making hard, unpopular choices.

If people can contributing to this thread can come up with some sort of "happy medium" solution, I'll happily present them to the rest of the Admin team for discussion - but we have to be realistic about what we can expect, and also the actions that we take.

I've mentioned a few potential simple reforms which would have stopped this particular issue in its tracks, and would I'm sure stop future problems from escalating so suddenly.

It is hard to know what to suggest when we don't know what we're dealing with however, so would be awesome if someone could actually pop up the exact procedure of a de-modding.

YULETIRED

Dev is a poker player, I challenge him to play LL in a HORSE game. If LL wins he becomes a born again MOD, if he loses, kick him out, Anyone loses to Dev should deffo be banned from being a poker mod. Also we in the poker forum would cease whinging due to our 'that's poker ' philosophy

Take it to the admins buffybot you know it's a good idea.

My name is URL

Meh, it's the CMods and co-mods that should make the initial decision about someone being modded or de-modded.. after all they're the ones that have a more immediate scope of how their forums run and how the regular posters like how it runs

imho, admins just bring a whole load of unnecessary politics into it

flahavaj

BuffyBot wrote: »

More thinking time than one might imagine. The problem is that by not de-modding someone, they have access to rights and tools which they can do damage with. We've seen it happen before - and while not everyone will do such a thing - the standard situation when someone is removed is to remove their rights completey.

This is quite a worrying and sinister statement. What rights and tools do they have access to and what kind of damage could they do?

leninbenjamin

For organisation that pride's itself on fostering a sense of community, something is rotten that such a decision could be taken so lightly by such a select few.

~Rebel~

BuffyBot wrote: »

More thinking time than one might imagine. The problem is that by not de-modding someone, they have access to rights and tools which they can do damage with. We've seen it happen before - and while not everyone will do such a thing - the standard situation when someone is removed is to remove their rights completey.

In this case, surely a simple solution is to remove mod powers but keep access to the Mod forum? That way the user cannot cause trouble and still has a line of communication and that way, the unwashed masses like myself might never hear of such incidents.

You already have this in place for the end user with "Prison", so surely it just makes sense to have an equivilent one tier higher?

flahavaj

~Rebel~ wrote: »

It is hard to know what to suggest when we don't know what we're dealing with however, so would be awesome if someone could actually pop up the exact procedure of a de-modding.

Why would they make this info vailable to normal users?

Fratton Fred

BuffyBot wrote: »

I guess what people would like is some sort of disciplinary procedure for cases such as this? Almost like some kind of quasi-employment situation.

If democracy can't work - do we formalise the whole situation? But who then makes the ultimate desicion? What happens when we've reached the end of the line with any popular mod and people still don't like that decision?

It's not like we like being bad guys, or that we want to annoy people - but we have to strike as much of a balance as possible, and sometimes that involves making hard, unpopular choices.

If people can contributing to this thread can come up with some sort of "happy medium" solution, I'll happily present them to the rest of the Admin team for discussion - but we have to be realistic about what we can expect, and also the actions that we take.

I think it all comes down to accountability. To us average Joes, this all happens behind closed doors so we are not able to hold anyone accountable. What doesn't help either is that when something like this happens, the shutters go up and none of the mods will discuss it. Its almost as if other mods are afraid of the admins.

A lot of people are now controbuting towards boards and as such I think it is only fair that people get treated more like customers and given some sort of explanation to events such as this.

After all, mods, posters and admins, all are needed to make this place work.

steoin

BuffyBot wrote: »

they have rights

Hobart

It comes as no surprise to me, that there is one particular Admin who seems to have been the catalyst to this, and if anything it clearly demonstrates, as those the comments by the admin on this thread, the complete lack of understanding, balance, reasoning and general respect that should be afforded to Mods, and in particular this mod in this case.

It was evident from quite early on that the elevation of one or two Mods to Admin status was going to cause issues, and while most are have not let the position go to their heads, one (in particular) or two have lost sight of not only what their role is, but the function of the site.

I resigned because a private matter I was discussing with an Admin, via PM, was made public without my permission or agreement. Despite my bringing this to her attention, and Tom's attention, my final PM to both of them did not warrant so much as an acknowledgment, and yet we will see thread after thread here espousing the veracity and privateness of the PM system.

Tom, as I have said in person and via PM to you, you have done a fantastic job running and driving on this website, and I appreciate it's not easy. But I feel the buck very much stops with you on this, and other matters, and you have clearly taken your eye off the ball.

kryogen

flahavaj wrote: »

Why would they make this info vailable to normal users?

show of good faith and openess?

yes we are aware that its not a democracy and they dont have to and all that

but why wouldnt they? what harm does it do to have it out in the open?

~Rebel~

flahavaj wrote: »

Why would they make this info vailable to normal users?

Well my dear flahavej, it makes little sense to suggest that the end user should feel free to provide reformations, as was done, without filling us in on what it is exactly we're reforming.

Without that information, the invitation is moot and frankly reminds me of Kafka's "The Trial".

flahavaj

~Rebel~ wrote: »

Well my dear flahavej, it makes little sense to suggest that the end user should feel free to provide reformations, as was done, without filling us in on what it is exactly we're reforming.

Without that information, the invitation is moot and frankly reminds me of Kafka's "The Trial".

I think now you're seeing my point. You're p*ssing in the wind.

opr

BuffyBot wrote: »

If democracy can't work - do we formalise the whole situation? But who then makes the ultimate desicion? What happens when we've reached the end of the line with any popular mod and people still don't like that decision?

It's not like we like being bad guys, or that we want to annoy people - but we have to strike as much of a balance as possible, and sometimes that involves making hard, unpopular choices.

Obviously sometimes hard decisions have to be made whether it involves a popular mod or otherwise. When people are presented with the facts of a situation and the decision seems fair, well reasoned and to have been dealt with in a proper manner I think the majority will acknowledge and understand the particular action taken.

On the other hand when your presented with a situation that seems woefully mishandled and is completely unreasonable lacking in any foresight or judgement then of course people are not going to agree.

Opr

BuffyBot

What doesn't help either is that when something like this happens, the shutters go up and none of the mods will discuss it. Its almost as if other mods are afraid of the admins.

I don't know if it's so much about fear - but on a personal level I would be loathe to get involved in someone elses business. Even more so when I'm not directly involved, or have all the pertinant information. I can only guess, but I probably wouldn't be alone in that sentiment I'd imagine.

mayordenis

BuffyBot wrote: »

but on a personal level I would be loathe to get involved in someone elses business.

Would you be loathe to support someone who has been treated very poorly?

BuffyBot

Depending on the scenario, yes. Unless I am the person involved, I generally assume the best and think I don't have all the info.

Anyway guys, I have to sleep now so I'm locking this temporarily. I'll re-open it first thing in the morning so we can keep the debate going.

BuffyBot

I've re-opened this thread as promised

I think the two big concerns that came to me overnight are as follows:

The procedures that we have for de-modding someone

How we communicate it to the person in question. Currently, it's all done via PM as that is the "person-to-person" communication system of default in vBulletin. It's not ideal, but it's what we have.

I'm open to pretty much any suggestion people have on how to do things differently. As I said last night: I'll collate what comes up here, and take it to the rest of the Admins. As part of the sites evolution, how we do things constantly changes - this procedure is no different