Too much complaining in this country...

legal-eagle

Following from recent threads, does anyone else just feel like people should stop complaining and be a bit more pro-active, some examples:

Jobs: I know three people laid off long term employment who got jobs within weeks of being let go, probably not ideal jobs but still better than social welfare and the funny thing is these three people are not the moan a minute "Fat cat bankers" "Corrupt Politicians" blaa blaa blaa. They are very pro-active people who just get on with things and I'm not one bit suprised they got work so quickly.

On the flipside of this I know of two people who haven't worked in a while, although their the first to offer an opinion on politics (I remember some reasons why they were voting no in the Lisbon treaty:rolleyes:). These two were then offered jobs by my brother at Christmas, handy work, great money for 8 weeks. They both turned it down for the reasons that they didn't want to work so far away (1 hour).

The Snow: What I keep hearingis "It's the Government's fault" "That fcuking Minister dempsey is on holiday" etc etc It's freak weather but it's hardly the fault of the Government or Local Council so get out and clear your own drive way, has the Celtic Tiger mindset corrupted our National Character I wonder?

Recession: The big one, without getting into Party Politics I want to ask this question, Would we have not went into recession if we had any other party leading Government? I think no as it was a global meltdown and our own mindest of getting on the property ladder and driving the new car.

So people should get more self-sufficient, stop bitching non-stop and go out there and make a difference themselves rather than blaming our ELECTED government about every little detail of our lives.

Beez Neez

Hear hear! I feel exactly the same way - we have become a nation of moaners and expect a nanny state to take care of everything No personal responsibility at all If we don't like it we ring the king of the moaners Joe Duffy and he stirs it up nicely Lets get on with it people!

imme

Some might suggest that you're doing a party political piece for the government OP.
Some others will agree with you. I guess we have to face the facts and deal with the situation as we find it. We also need to know how we go here, so as not to land in the position again. Do we want our banking system at near-collapse again?

There have been negative/complaining threads on here before, but there've also been positive, progressive, realistic threads as well. Here are some of my contributions.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055766904
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055790793


now who's doing the party pol thing.:D

legal-eagle

imme wrote: »

Some might suggest that you're doing a party political piece for the government OP.
Some others will agree with you. I guess we have to face the facts and deal with the situation as we find it. We also need to know how we go here, so as not to land in the position again. Do we want our banking system at near-collapse again?

There have been negative/complaining threads on here before, but there've also been positive, progressive, realistic threads as well. Here are some of my contributions.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055766904
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055790793


now who's doing the party pol thing.:D

Not doing a Party piece at all, I'm quite Apolitical as I wouldn't see a huge amount of difference in the Parties in this Country. Its more to do with me feeling that blaming the Government is the fashionable thing to do. The banking system was going to be on its knees regardless of who was in charge remember AIG, Lehman Brothers, Bear Stearns
etc the whole world was on its knees. Sure there was plenty of things FF did worng but thats spilt milk now, people should look forward not back.

Wheely

legal-eagle wrote: »

Following from recent threads, does anyone else just feel like people should stop complaining and be a bit more pro-active, some examples:

Jobs: I know three people laid off long term employment who got jobs within weeks of being let go, probably not ideal jobs but still better than social welfare and the funny thing is these three people are not the moan a minute "Fat cat bankers" "Corrupt Politicians" blaa blaa blaa. They are very pro-active people who just get on with things and I'm not one bit suprised they got work so quickly.

On the flipside of this I know of two people who haven't worked in a while, although their the first to offer an opinion on politics (I remember some reasons why they were voting no in the Lisbon treaty:rolleyes:). These two were then offered jobs by my brother at Christmas, handy work, great money for 8 weeks. They both turned it down for the reasons that they didn't want to work so far away (1 hour).

The Snow: What I keep hearingis "It's the Government's fault" "That fcuking Minister dempsey is on holiday" etc etc It's freak weather but it's hardly the fault of the Government or Local Council so get out and clear your own drive way, has the Celtic Tiger mindset corrupted our National Character I wonder?

Recession: The big one, without getting into Party Politics I want to ask this question, Would we have not went into recession if we had any other party leading Government? I think no as it was a global meltdown and our own mindest of getting on the property ladder and driving the new car.

So people should get more self-sufficient, stop bitching non-stop and go out there and make a difference themselves rather than blaming our ELECTED government about every little detail of our lives.

Firstly, anecdotal evidence is none at all. I know a lad who got a job.....SNORE. Not worth the paper it's printed on. There is a recession. Jobs are being lost. Unemployment is rising. Emigration is rising. These are all valid reasons for one to be upset.

Secondly, same point. The fact that you know two lads who were offered jobs and dint take it and they complain and they voted no to Lisbon means absolutely squat.

On the snow. I agree. It was not the governments fault. It never happens here, never has and they cant be expected to prepare for every eventuality.

As for the recession. Of course we would have went into recession regardless. Everywhere did. Not the point. We were hit harder here partly because of the policies of our govt. They were irresponsible. They chose power over pragmatism time and again. Our banking system is in tatters along with our international reputation because of the absolute failure of our regulators, who were appointed by and were accountable to our govt. Who clearly didnt give a rats ass what the bankers and the developers were up to. Indeed the Minister for Finance saw nothing wrong with getting a 1.8 million euro loan fastracked inside a couple of hours-why would they rock the boat. To deny this reality and encourage people to "get over it" so to speak is ridiculous.

Telling people to become self-sufficient and to stop bitching will not result in 400,000 employment opportunities, a reinstatement of international investor confidence or the miraculous payment of the billions of euros in loans being transferred to NAMA. And I know the govt were elected. Just becuase it would suit them for everyone to take your advice and wipe the slate clean doesnt mean they'll do it. I wont.

Without gettin into "party politics"...........

fergalr

legal-eagle wrote: »

Following from recent threads, does anyone else just feel like people should stop complaining and be a bit more pro-active, some examples:

Jobs: I know three people laid off long term employment who got jobs within weeks of being let go, probably not ideal jobs but still better than social welfare and the funny thing is these three people are not the moan a minute "Fat cat bankers" "Corrupt Politicians" blaa blaa blaa. They are very pro-active people who just get on with things and I'm not one bit suprised they got work so quickly.

You know 3 people who got jobs quickly, and they don't criticise the government, therefore criticising the way the country has been run is wrong?

legal-eagle wrote: »

On the flipside of this I know of two people who haven't worked in a while, although their the first to offer an opinion on politics (I remember some reasons why they were voting no in the Lisbon treaty:rolleyes:). These two were then offered jobs by my brother at Christmas, handy work, great money for 8 weeks. They both turned it down for the reasons that they didn't want to work so far away (1 hour).

Are you arguing that as a result of what these 5 people you know did, criticising the governments performance, and the way this country has been run over the past few years, is somehow wrong?

Anyway, I somewhat disagree with your conclusions.

Criticism is a healthy thing, and is often a necessary prerequisite for change.
I think its not good that criticism of the failures of recent years is just written off as 'moaning'. That's not an acceptable way of dealing with the very valid criticisms of the real problems in this country. We need more criticism and more holding to account, not less.

Being able to write dissenting voices off as 'moaners' means that no accusations of mismanagement need to be answered.

legal-eagle wrote: »

The Snow: What I keep hearingis "It's the Government's fault" "That fcuking Minister dempsey is on holiday" etc etc It's freak weather but it's hardly the fault of the Government or Local Council so get out and clear your own drive way, has the Celtic Tiger mindset corrupted our National Character I wonder?

It is not freak weather and it is not unprecedented.
It is weather that we have not seen in 30 years. But that does not mean its freak weather. The weather naturally varies. It isn't the exact same every year, and its stupid to assume it would be. Our infrastructure should not assume this, and when it does, it means people aren't doing their jobs. Specifically, when the transport infrastructure cannot withstand a cold snap, the Minister for Transport is not doing his job.
The country should not come to a standstill because weather slightly worse than normal occurs. We should be able to deal with such precedented, though unusual, variations in weather, without the national infrastructure coming to a halt, without our capitals water supply failing, and without our national roads coming within weeks of closing. If we did have real freak weather we would be in trouble, or - forbid- a natural disaster, or another month of sub zero conditions, would have wrecked huge economic damage.

legal-eagle wrote: »

Recession: The big one, without getting into Party Politics I want to ask this question, Would we have not went into recession if we had any other party leading Government? I think no as it was a global meltdown and our own mindest of getting on the property ladder and driving the new car.

The country was mismanaged. This was clear at the time, and even clearer now. Yes, we would almost certainly have had a recession if there was a different government.
But that doesn't absolve the government of all the financial mismanagement that occurred on their watch.
They are not being blamed for the recession, but for the woeful state the country was in to deal with a recession, or indeed any downturn in the country's fortunes; which were wrongly built on an unsustainable property faux-economy.

legal-eagle wrote: »

So people should get more self-sufficient, stop bitching non-stop and go out there and make a difference themselves rather than blaming our ELECTED government about every little detail of our lives.

I agree with you somewhat here.
People, the electorate, should take responsibility for their own role in the mess that has been made.

But that doesn't mean ignoring the failings of the various political parties, and those in positions of power.
It means being critical of them, holding the correct people accountable, and instituting change so that this will not happen again.

This does not seem to be happening. Instead people are mildly complaining, and ignoring the systemic issues.
They should be complaining a lot more, and trying to fix the real issues in this country.

legal-eagle

Anecdotal evidence DOES mean something, it shows how the mindest of blaming/whinging is rampant in this country.

Also I'm not saying don't criticize the Government, do it all you want but don't let that be only discusiion.Also why not vote them out and let that be that rather than ringing Joe Duffy!

Simple vote FG, Labour, SF whoever in the next election and look forward until that day.

My point is nothing to with Party Politics.

Wheely

legal-eagle wrote: »

Not doing a Party piece at all, I'm quite Apolitical as I wouldn't see a huge amount of difference in the Parties in this Country. Its more to do with me feeling that blaming the Government is the fashionable thing to do. The banking system was going to be on its knees regardless of who was in charge remember AIG, Lehman Brothers, Bear Stearns
etc the whole world was on its knees. Sure there was plenty of things FF did worng but thats spilt milk now, people should look forward not back.

Once again I'll make the point. The only people THAT mentality serves, is Fianna Fail. We should learn from our mistakes, not ignore them. To do so we must look back. That "it's spilt milk" approach sees us blindly blundering forward and can be applied to screw-up after screw-up after screw-up without anyone ever being held accountable.

imme

legal-eagle wrote: »

Its more to do with me feeling that blaming the Government is the fashionable thing to do. The banking system was going to be on its knees regardless of who was in charge remember AIG, Lehman Brothers, Bear Stearns
etc the whole world was on its knees. Sure there was plenty of things FF did worng but thats spilt milk now, people should look forward not back.

Specifically (not wishing to tie your thread down to this though) re the banking/regulatory issue Governments on this side and on the other side of the Atlantic should be held accountable for their lack of oversight. Banks and financial institutions were allowed engage in unsustainable and dangerous practices. Further specifically in relation to our own govt. They enabled a bubble, some on here mightn't see anything wrong with a rampant market. But the unsustainable nature of it along with the world financial crisis it's has had real repercussions for real people in Ireland. They want the govt and financial institutions to be accountable for their actions.

I agree we have to look forward, we can't change what's happened. But if there was wrongdoing it has to be punished. If wrong practices were engaged in we have to ensure that that doesn't happen again. We have to ensure that we don't end up here again.

Wheely

legal-eagle wrote: »

Anecdotal evidence DOES mean something, it shows how the mindest of blaming/whinging is rampant in this country.

Also I'm not saying don't criticize the Government, do it all you want but don't let that be only discusiion.Also why not vote them out and let that be that rather than ringing Joe Duffy!

Simple vote FG, Labour, SF whoever in the next election and look forward until that day.

My point is nothing to with Party Politics.

No, five people you know does not provide me with the mindset of the nation. Sorry dude!

and you havent answered any of the other points i made. Blindly looking forward is idiotic for reasons ive already pointed out.

legal-eagle

Wheely wrote: »

Once again I'll make the point. The only people THAT mentality serves, is Fianna Fail. We should learn from our mistakes, not ignore them. To do so we must look back. That "it's spilt milk" approach sees us blindly blundering forward and can be applied to screw-up after screw-up after screw-up without anyone ever being held accountable.

I'm all for making FF responsible and for holding people accountable (And I'm sure we will) but the fact is we cannot change the past. It is spilt milk in that sense. You're kind of proving my point about the constant complaining.

Wheely

legal-eagle wrote: »

I'm all for making FF responsible and for holding people accountable (And I'm sure we will) but the fact is we cannot change the past. It is spilt milk in that sense. You're kind of proving my point about the constant complaining.

I'm not proving your point. You may think I am, but I think it's something we'll disagree on. You still havent addressed any of the points I've made. Cessation of "complaining/blaming/whinging" and an effort to make onself self-sufficient won't magically create employment, pay the mortgage, rekindle international investor confidence and so on and so on. Or is that all spilt milk? Am I crying? Oh darn, did I just "prove your point" again? A master of manipulation ladies and gentlemen!:rolleyes:

legal-eagle

Wheely wrote: »

No, five people you know does not provide me with the mindset of the nation. Sorry dude!

and you havent answered any of the other points i made. Blindly looking forward is idiotic for reasons ive already pointed out.

So you tell me then what is the mindset of the nation?
Do you disagree with my opinion?

fergalr

legal-eagle wrote: »

Anecdotal evidence DOES mean something, it shows how the mindest of blaming/whinging is rampant in this country.

Not with a sample size of 2, it doesn't.

I accept there's a lot of that going on, but saying 'I know 2 people that complain and didnt get jobs' really isn't any more valid than just saying "Theres a lot of complaining going on".

legal-eagle wrote: »

Also I'm not saying don't criticize the Government, do it all you want but don't let that be only discusiion.Also why not vote them out and let that be that rather than ringing Joe Duffy!

Gotta wait for an election to vote.

In the meanwhile, its probably a good idea for the average person to be thinking about what went wrong, what could be improved etc.

The 'its all spilt milk, move on' attitude doesn't really help us learn from our mistakes - as voters, if nothing else.

legal-eagle wrote: »

Simple vote FG, Labour, SF whoever in the next election and look forward until that day.

My point is nothing to with Party Politics.

FF would like to blame the economic downturn here purely on external events.
If people believed that, it would be much better for FF than if they blame FF.

Whatever your intentions are, surely you can see that arguing that we shouldn't criticise the governments actions leading into the recession, arguing that its 'spilt milk', and arguing that the events were the result of external matters, is a position very favourable to FF?

Even if your intentions aren't party political, the position you are advocating surely is, so you should be prepared to have people say that.

Wheely

legal-eagle wrote: »

So you tell me then what is the mindset of the nation?
Do you disagree with my opinion?

Of course I disagree with your opinion!!!! I think I've made that abundantly clear! See my first reply to your OP for the reasons why. I'm not repeating myself!

I won't pretend to authoritatively be able to tell you the mindset of the nation, but if i were to make an educated guess I would certainly support it with more than 5 random conversations I had.

legal-eagle

fergalr wrote: »

Not with a sample size of 2, it doesn't.

I accept there's a lot of that going on, but saying 'I know 2 people that complain and didnt get jobs' really isn't any more valid than just saying "Theres a lot of complaining going on".



Gotta wait for an election to vote.

In the meanwhile, its probably a good idea for the average person to be thinking about what went wrong, what could be improved etc.

The 'its all spilt milk, move on' attitude doesn't really help us learn from our mistakes - as voters, if nothing else.



FF would like to blame the economic downturn here purely on external events.
If people believed that, it would be much better for FF than if they blame FF.

Whatever your intentions are, surely you can see that arguing that we shouldn't criticise the governments actions leading into the recession, arguing that its 'spilt milk', and arguing that the events were the result of external matters, is a position very favourable to FF?

Even if your intentions aren't party political, the position you are advocating surely is, so you should be prepared to have people say that.

Look back at my last few posts please.

legal-eagle

Wheely wrote: »

Of course I disagree with your opinion!!!! I think I've made that abundantly clear! See my first reply to your OP for the reasons why. I'm not repeating myself!

I won't pretend to authoritatively be able to tell you the mindset of the nation, but if i were to make an educated guess I would certainly support it with more than 5 random conversations I had.

So you have no clue then? Also you didn't totally disagree with me totally, you actually said you do agree about the snow. Just to clarify you think people were too busy complaining rather than be pro-active about the weather conditions?

Wheely

legal-eagle wrote: »

Look back at my last few posts please.

I don't know of you think you're explaining yourself better than you are. You are the one who seems to be ignoring the points made in posts. I dealt with yours one at a time. On your advice here, I looked back over your posts. I learned nothing new.

Your opinion is stop complaining, get over it, if you do everything will be grand. Oh and the recession, and it's intensity presumably, was entirely down to external events.

I disagree wholeheartedly!

Wheely

legal-eagle wrote: »

So you have no clue then? Also you didn't totally disagree with me totally, you actually said you do agree about the snow. Just to clarify you think people were too busy complaining rather than be pro-active about the weather conditions?

Right, I agreed with you about the snow. I don't blame the govt for the weather. Wow-now you're right and I'm wrong!

Just to clarify-I DONT KNOW OR CARE IF PEOPLE WERE TOO BUST COMPLAINING ABOUT THE WEATHER AS OPPOSED TO BEING PRO-ACTIVE! What does that even mean-being pro-active about the weather conditions?

Oh and back at you-just to clarify-do you really believe all that crap (minus the weather, you got me) in your OP and every post since then!?:D

legal-eagle

Wheely wrote: »

Right, I agreed with you about the snow. I don't blame the govt for the weather. Wow-now you're right and I'm wrong!

Just to clarify-I DONT KNOW OR CARE IF PEOPLE WERE TOO BUST COMPLAINING ABOUT THE WEATHER AS OPPOSED TO BEING PRO-ACTIVE! What does that even mean-being pro-active about the weather conditions?

Oh and back at you-just to clarify-do you really believe all that crap (minus the weather, you got me) in your OP and every post since then!?:D

What that there is too many loudmouth who do nothing but complain. Of course, I think you're on of them if the truth be known.

Wheely

legal-eagle wrote: »

What that there is too many loudmouth who do nothing but complain. Of course, I think you're on of them if the truth be known.

Wow, your debating and argumentative skills truly are second to none. You make an unsupported assertion, repeat it, ignore all points countering it and repeat it again. Maybe leave the old legal career a few more years, ye know, just till you hone your advocacy skills.

You know nothing about me, so to state I do nothing but complain is wildly speculative of you. I actually do a lot. I'd probably be one of those "proactive" people you refer to. If I were the type, which I'm not, I'd even assume I do more than you. But I know, unlike some posters here, that to assume, makes an ass out of U, and..... darn I've forgotten the rest of that saying. You get my drift.

Also, if all I had to worry about was where to go skiing in late January, I probably wouldn't be complaining either.

Take it easy on the slopes now "legal-eagle"

skelliser

legal-eagle wrote: »

Anecdotal evidence DOES mean something...........

nice username!

legal-eagle

skelliser wrote: »

nice username!

I forgot this was a court case:rolleyes:

FlutterinBantam

Wheely wrote: »

Once again I'll make the point. The only people THAT mentality serves, is Fianna Fail. We should learn from our mistakes, not ignore them. To do so we must look back. That "it's spilt milk" approach sees us blindly blundering forward and can be applied to screw-up after screw-up after screw-up without anyone ever being held accountable.

With respect, I feel the OP doesn't mean we should not learn from our mistakes,and sort out what led us to this situation,but that instead of sitting in a corner bleating about 'what happened' we should be more pro active and go forward.

johnnyskeleton

legal-eagle wrote: »

Following from recent threads, does anyone else just feel like people should stop complaining and be a bit more pro-active, some examples:

Jobs: I know three people laid off long term employment who got jobs within weeks of being let go, probably not ideal jobs but still better than social welfare and the funny thing is these three people are not the moan a minute "Fat cat bankers" "Corrupt Politicians" blaa blaa blaa. They are very pro-active people who just get on with things and I'm not one bit suprised they got work so quickly.

On the flipside of this I know of two people who haven't worked in a while, although their the first to offer an opinion on politics (I remember some reasons why they were voting no in the Lisbon treaty:rolleyes:). These two were then offered jobs by my brother at Christmas, handy work, great money for 8 weeks. They both turned it down for the reasons that they didn't want to work so far away (1 hour).

The Snow: What I keep hearingis "It's the Government's fault" "That fcuking Minister dempsey is on holiday" etc etc It's freak weather but it's hardly the fault of the Government or Local Council so get out and clear your own drive way, has the Celtic Tiger mindset corrupted our National Character I wonder?

Recession: The big one, without getting into Party Politics I want to ask this question, Would we have not went into recession if we had any other party leading Government? I think no as it was a global meltdown and our own mindest of getting on the property ladder and driving the new car.

So people should get more self-sufficient, stop bitching non-stop and go out there and make a difference themselves rather than blaming our ELECTED government about every little detail of our lives.

Listen, moaners know that nothing will be achieved by their moaning. So long as you realise that positive thinking and getting out there making a difference won't actually, if you'll pardon the phrase, make a damn bit of difference then work away.

But sadly there is too much of this boundless optimisim in government and banking circles. We don't need optimisim, we need realism.

We don't need people to stop moaning and start thinking positively, we need people to stop talking and look at the mess they are in realistically. The doing things will come later, but for the moment we still haven't acknowledged the real problems or their extent.

So going out there and moving and shaking to your heart's content is fine, but what you should really be doing is seeing where things went wrong and reflecting on it, so that the same mistakes won't be repeated again.

johnnyskeleton

legal-eagle wrote: »

I'm all for making FF responsible and for holding people accountable (And I'm sure we will) but the fact is we cannot change the past. It is spilt milk in that sense. You're kind of proving my point about the constant complaining.

Can we change the past? No
Does that mean we should ignore it? NO

Why? Because those who fail to learn from the mistakes of the past are doomed to repeat them.

legal-eagle

legal-eagle wrote: »

I'm all for making FF responsible and for holding people accountable (And I'm sure we will) but the fact is we cannot change the past. It is spilt milk in that sense. You're kind of proving my point about the constant complaining.

Firstly, what makes you think that the people responsible for this mess will be held accountable? Oh, you mean blamed for a year or two and then forgotten... Care to wager none of them will ever face any legal proceedings?

Secondly, I don't think Irish people complain enough. Sure, we sit in groups and complain about the government but rarely anything more than that. RTE throws up comedians which make the whole thing "funny", and the next morning we find some new screw up has happened. Every year its the same story. In your lifetime, can you remember a government that has managed to stay in power without serious scandals of inefficiency, or worse? Irish people need to complain a lot more, with a much louder voice. To say that the dubious political tradition of ****ing with us is no longer acceptable.

Actually... we've had enough of complaining. We need to get angry. We need to demand (as is our right) for responsible leadership.

Lastly, in regards to the weather... I heard in the news after the snow that it would cost 30 million to get the roads just in Galway back to normal. And that the plan for the next fall of snow was.. to do exactly the same as before.... Where was the money on infrastructure & roads through the boom years spent, and couldn't it have been done better? I also remember just after the economy crashed, the minister for transport coming on the radio to say that they have done research and found cheaper ways to get roads built.. made me wonder why they hadn't found those ways when the country had the money..

Think about this. Our economy is pretty screwed. From both the flooding and the heavy snow/weather we've got an extra bill we can hardly afford to pay. Scandal after scandal rolls in succession....

And you're telling people not to complain? I'm a Stoner and even I'm complaining... But hey.. The rest of the world is recovering.. Isn't that great?

Agent J

Usually i find the people who bleat on publicly about "The past is the past... " or "We are where we are.." are the people who are probably most to blame for the situation.

anymore

Complaining seems to work for some... I know a person who seems to have celebrated getting the keys of their ' Social and Affordable Housing' two months ago by getting the keys to their 2010 car this week !
Its not that long ago since they were on a local radio show talking about how bad things were !