N2 - Slane Bypass [planning decision pending]

Phoenix008

Hi all,
What do you think was the role of Dr Comer's heritage impact assessment in the oral hearing and the final outcome of the case?

monument

Slane Resident wrote: »

I'm really interested to find out how these rigid HGV bans or complete regional bans are going to work. Not being argumentative, maybe I'm just not seeing something that others are. I don't see how blocking HGVs from the entire region will work - not for through-travel, deliveries, or the indigenous industries.

What rigid or regional HGV bans are you talking about? Where are these suggestions?

It seems we have yet more shadow boxing!

Sponge Bob

monument wrote: »

What rigid or regional HGV bans are you talking about? Where are these suggestions?

It seems we have yet more shadow boxing!

If you read the NRA study posted within 10 posts of yours you may realise that Slane is of systemic national importance along with its hinterland all the way up to Emyvale on the Tyrone border and west to Delvin in Westmeath.

A spot ban on HGVs in Slane cannot be done in isolation and absent a Regulatory Impact Study first. It is cheaper, simpler and less disruptive overall to proceed with bypassing.

Nor does a solution to the N2 (in isolation) solve the issues of HGVs thundering daily THROUGH a world heritage site along the N51 not that it will contribute to same.

Not shadow boxing, just quite a large scale problem and of systemic national importance so.

monument

We seem to be losing sight of the -- correct -- idea that the N2 at Slane is the real problem area...

Sponge Bob wrote: »

If you read the NRA study posted within 10 posts of yours you may realise that Slane is of systemic national importance along with its hinterland all the way up to Emyvale on the Tyrone border and west to Delvin in Westmeath.

Ok, but nobody is suggesting closing down Slane so I'm not sure what your point is.

The N2 on the other hand seems to have lost a lot of its national importance with the building of the M1 and M3. If you want to think systemically you don't put too much importance on a route that goes parrall to two close by motorways - you make links off and between the motorways.

Sponge Bob wrote: »

A spot ban on HGVs in Slane cannot be done in isolation and absent a Regulatory Impact Study first. It is cheaper, simpler and less disruptive overall to proceed with bypassing.

A bypass is cheaper than a HGV ban without one?! Pull the other leg.

As for a Regulatory Impact Study... Dublin's ban area even with the Port Tunnell is wider.

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Nor does a solution to the N2 (in isolation) solve the issues of HGVs thundering daily THROUGH a world heritage site along the N51 not that it will contribute to same.

Current traffic traveling in a world heritage area is low down my list compared to a safety-critical issue.

Sponge Bob

monument wrote: »

We seem to be losing sight of the -- correct -- idea that the N2 at Slane is the real problem area...

It is. However banning HGVs ( 3 axle jobbies) wont stop cars and vans and buses from crashing on the hill. You cannot ban the hills down to the old bridge. So what is a HGV ban supposed to fix anyway. It cannot obviate the need for a bypass on safety grounds to my mind. ????

I am in favour of blanket banning super heavies but not buses vans delivery type trucks etc.

The N2 on the other hand seems to have lost a lot of its national importance with the building of the M1 and M3. If you want to think systemically you don't put too much importance on a route that goes parrall to two close by motorways - you make links off and between the motorways.

Ever heard of the N51 or N52 then??? More importantly have you driven either or both ?? Slane has two national roads.

HGV bans are cheap, they don't necessarily fix anything in this case as HGVs will still travel east west on the N51...the intention should be to take all heavies out of Slane and the section east of there. What to do about 3 axle tourist buses?...sure ban them too. BAN THEM ALL!!!

As for a Regulatory Impact Study... Dublin's ban area even with the Port Tunnell is wider.

And....emm...so what?? Only artics are banned in Dublin from what I seee, 3 axle buses USE the tunnel.

Current traffic traveling in a world heritage area is low down my list compared to a safety-critical issue.

Grand.

lucernarian

It's definitely not grand, as anyone who has to travel alongside the Boyne near Oldbridge can tell you. There hasn't been a fatal accident there in the last few years but the Louth side of the N51 is dangerous from the junction with Oldbridge onwards to the Meath border and between Slane and the M1 there are no hard shoulders anywhere on the road.

monument

Sponge Bob wrote: »

It is. However banning HGVs ( 3 axle jobbies) wont stop cars and vans and buses from crashing on the hill. You cannot ban the hills down to the old bridge. So what is a HGV ban supposed to fix anyway. It cannot obviate the need for a bypass on safety grounds to my mind. ????

It's not suposed to obviate the need for a bypass -- I'm sick of staying this.

A HGV ban could remove most or all larger trucks which pose a larger degree of danger -- what's included and what's not would be a question of how much risk there is and how much do you want to remove.

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Ever heard of the N51 or N52 then??? More importantly have you driven either or both ?? Slane has two national roads.

Actually it does not have two, the N51 is a national secondary route, and you know that and I don't need to explain the different you.

But as I said, I would favour the upgrading of links off and between the M1 and M3 -- the roads you mention could form part of that.

Sponge Bob wrote: »

HGV bans are cheap, they don't necessarily fix anything in this case as HGVs will still travel east west on the N51...

An issue far lower down the list than the problem of the hill and the bridge on the N2.

Sponge Bob wrote: »

And....emm...so what?? Only artics are banned in Dublin from what I seee, 3 axle buses USE the tunnel.

Dublin City Council views that a wider ban would not have legal issues. Buses can be excluded.

lucernarian

monument wrote: »

An issue far lower down the list than the problem of the hill and the bridge on the N2.

Hmmm. How much lower down? Are you basing this on the level of accidents that take place there? That is shaky ground to make such a sweeping statement.

Sponge Bob

The N51 and N52 are crap roads on an epic scale. What is forgotten is that the N52 is a top priority National Road , more so than many Primarys are.

The N52 ( N33 at its eastern end) cross connects M1 N2 N/M3 M4 M6 and M7 and is the only feasible route around incidents on those roads.....apart from the fact that only the Birr-Mullingar section is up to standard...the rest is complete crap.

The NRA document I linked IS a traffic study and it arrived at some conclusions, namely that Slane is slap bang in the middle of THE key national logistics cluster meaning a localised ban is no solution to anything and should if anything be considered only after a bypass is built and to encourage its use, just like the Dublin tunnel opened BEFORE the ban down there. As for that idea of moving Dublin Port to up near Drogheda.

Slane Resident

monument wrote: »

What rigid or regional HGV bans are you talking about? Where are these suggestions?

It seems we have yet more shadow boxing!

My post was in response to a post which has now been deleted, which suggested rigid or regional HGV bans. I'd be grateful if you could stop accusing everyone, and particularly me, of shadow boxing. It's getting boring at this stage.

monument

To_be_confirmed wrote: »

Hmmm. How much lower down? Are you basing this on the level of accidents that take place there? That is shaky ground to make such a sweeping statement.

Funny. Safety is the/a core reason used by residents, Meath Co Co, the NRA etc for a bypass.

When I say the same thing it becomes "shaky ground" and "sweeping statement". Wow!

Slane Resident wrote: »

My post was in response to a post which has now been deleted, which suggested rigid or regional HGV bans. I'd be grateful if you could stop accusing everyone, and particularly me, of shadow boxing. It's getting boring at this stage.

Ok...

You could quote posts you're replying to it would keep thing simple and avoid all of this after real or phantom posters delete their posts.

lucernarian

monument wrote: »

Funny. Safety is the/a core reason used by residents, Meath Co Co, the NRA etc for a bypass.

When I say the same thing it becomes "shaky ground" and "sweeping statement". Wow!

What sort of leap of logic is that?! I'm claiming that you're quite wrong to assert the safety of the N51 because "it's not Slane". I have to say that's a very immature response also. I happen to feel that the issues on the N51 are quite serious and there is a track record of accidents along with road conditions that are seriously inadequate at a small number of locations. Now let's hear your reasons for why you think it's an issue far lower down the list.

Also, am I correct in saying that moderators can see deleted posts in the forums they overlook?

Slane Resident wrote:

My post was in response to a post which has now been deleted, which suggested rigid or regional HGV bans. I'd be grateful if you could stop accusing everyone, and particularly me, of shadow boxing. It's getting boring at this stage.

I had also brought up the idea of a regional HGV ban in a previous post, I suppose the objective would be to send trucks via the Drogheda and Navan corridors, be it on the tolled bypasses or through the town centres pending the completion of the bypass. It would certainly impact on hauliers though the extent to which a HGV ban could stand up to legal challenge is still a matter of some debate here.

spacetweek

Attached are the changes I would make to the region.

monument

To_be_confirmed wrote: »

What sort of leap of logic is that?! I'm claiming that you're quite wrong to assert the safety of the N51 because "it's not Slane". I have to say that's a very immature response also. I happen to feel that the issues on the N51 are quite serious and there is a track record of accidents along with road conditions that are seriously inadequate at a small number of locations. Now let's hear your reasons for why you think it's an issue far lower down the list. .

If my logic is such a leap then why do the NRA, Meath Co Co and residents all agree that the N2 is higher up the list?

And I don't care what you think is immature -- something isn't immature just because you don't like it.

lucernarian

monument wrote: »

If my logic is such a leap then why do the NRA, Meath Co Co and residents all agree that the N2 is higher up the list?

And I don't care what you think is immature -- something isn't immature just because you don't like it.

The difference here is that you said it was "far lower down" the list of priorities. You are forgetting that I did ask you to clarify the extent to which you feel this, but this was overlooked it seems. Actually I'll correct that, I asked twice for the reason why you felt N51 safety was "far down" the list of priorities but that still hasn't been addressed.

This>>>>

monument wrote:

When I say the same thing it becomes "shaky ground" and "sweeping statement". Wow!

Is a bizarre statement because you weren't saying the "same thing", whatever that exactly referred to and more importantly the sarcasm involved was rather immature in the context of a straightforward question I asked of you. I don't think my liking of it or otherwise comes into it - the response was a little curt and sarcastic, and failed to address the question and point I was making. By responding to my thoughts on the your response rather than the repeated question, it seems more likely in my mind that you rather do care about what I have to say on it. Though this is beside the immediate point, I only want to know why the safety concerns of the N51 (Slane to Drogheda) are a tiny matter in comparison to Slane bridge.

Sponge Bob

spacetweek wrote: »

Attached are the changes I would make to the region.

Very Good. I do question the need for the N51 east of the M3 at all when they can use the N52 (once upgraded) and then ban HGVs not accessing ( permit based) the area itself from a box along the Boyne and especially inside the World Heritage site.

I'd look at a Dunshaughlin - Balbriggan M1 M2 M3 interceptor N51 instead, airport traffic a consideration too.

monument

To_be_confirmed wrote: »

The difference here is that you said it was "far lower down" the list of priorities. You are forgetting that I did ask you to clarify the extent to which you feel this, but this was overlooked it seems. Actually I'll correct that, I asked twice for the reason why you felt N51 safety was "far down" the list of priorities but that still hasn't been addressed.

This>>>>

Is a bizarre statement because you weren't saying the "same thing", whatever that exactly referred to and more importantly the sarcasm involved was rather immature in the context of a straightforward question I asked of you. I don't think my liking of it or otherwise comes into it - the response was a little curt and sarcastic, and failed to address the question and point I was making. By responding to my thoughts on the your response rather than the repeated question, it seems more likely in my mind that you rather do care about what I have to say on it. Though this is beside the immediate point, I only want to know why the safety concerns of the N51 (Slane to Drogheda) are a tiny matter in comparison to Slane bridge.

Generally to answer your post:

It was not sarcastic it was disbelieve! Disbelieve that somebody reading this thread has to ask why the N2 at Slane -- with the steep hill, old narrow bridge, national road status, the amount of serious collisions on such a short bit of road and all with the village setting -- is so far above the N51 as a priority.

These factors have been outlined by myself, other posters, and many links posted on the thread.

Your account of bring straightforward does not tally with your use of "shaky ground" and "sweeping statement" etc.

lucernarian

The N51 has its share of serious problems, as people who've driven on the road or lived in the area would know. The problems at Slane don't make these any less real or serious in their own right! The vicinity of Townley Hall and the woods nearby, in itself a popular amenity with locals (i.e. pedestrians) runs literally alongside the N51 for about 500 metres. On the other side, lies the river boyne with little more than a few shrubs and a non-concreted steel barrier between the bank the road is on and the river beside it. The road itself has no hard shoulders and is less than 5 metres wide along this particularly bad stretch. Certainly in the context of sending more trucks onto the N51 with a HGV ban of Slane, there are serious problems with the N51 and the road is not fit for purpose.

Also Sponge Bob, how can you call for the removal of one of the most stragetically important roads in the country that links the largest town and one of the largest towns in Ireland, and provides the route to the only 24 hour acute hospital in this region? For general transportation, sending every vehicle via Ardee on the N33 or indeed via Tullyallen/Collon on the equally if not more narrow R168 is an excessive detour. And there's no other acceptable route between the N2 and N3 apart from the N51 right now, as far south as Ashbourne!

Sponge Bob

I dd concede that ambulances will take the shortest route no matter what happens, that would indicate the need for an N51 bypass of Slane too...or at least that the N51 gets priority over a detrunked former N2 once that bypass is built...or both.

But I would send trucks to Ardee and onto an upgraded N52 longer term.

lucernarian

Sponge Bob wrote: »

I dd concede that ambulances will take the shortest route no matter what happens, that would indicate the need for an N51 bypass of Slane too...or at least that the N51 gets priority over a detrunked former N2 once that bypass is built...or both.

But I would send trucks to Ardee and onto an upgraded N52 longer term.

I know there was the unfortunate accident recently but the N51 road through the village itself is relatively wide and spacious, with hard shoulders available almost immediately in the Navan direction. Minor safety measures or provision of better pedestrian facilities would help. The serious safety and heritage issues lie outside of Slane, particularly on the Louth/Meath border.

spacetweek

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Very Good. I do question the need for the N51 east of the M3 at all when they can use the N52 (once upgraded) and then ban HGVs not accessing ( permit based) the area itself from a box along the Boyne and especially inside the World Heritage site.

I'd look at a Dunshaughlin - Balbriggan M1 M2 M3 interceptor N51 instead, airport traffic a consideration too.

OK but if the intention of the N51 is to create a (Athlone-)Navan-Drogheda route then how would they get to Drogheda? Ardee is too far north.
I'll admit my N51 on my map might be better routed Navan-Duleek.

Sponge Bob

Not through a World Heritage Site I should think. Same with the N5/N61 in Tulsk and Frenchpark .

spacetweek

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Not through a World Heritage Site I should think. Same with the N5/N61 in Tulsk and Frenchpark .

The buffer zone of the site is well north of Duleek (page 8 of this document).

Sponge Bob

spacetweek wrote: »

The buffer zone of the site is well north of Duleek (page 8 of this document).

Sorry Spacetweek. Frenchpark/Tulsk as well as TARA are BOTH proposed World Heritage sites and in the one proposal dating back to 2010, I should have made myself clearer.

http://www.worldheritageireland.ie/tentative-list/

http://www.worldheritageireland.ie/fileadmin/user_upload/documents/tentative_list/Royal_Sites_TL_form.pdf

Aquarius34

How about new offline route south of the river? Surely it's not much of a problem upgrading the existing road south of the river or just upgrading the existing N51. It doesn't have to be glorified, it just needs HS and smoothing out bends to bring it up to a reasonable standard. The road between Slane and Drogheda is not like a million miles or anything.

I honestly don't think an N2 bypass is needed. What Slane needs is a new bridge. Traffic numbers on the N2 continues to decrease year on year now as the M1 has been continually extended and the N2 north of Ardee has now better links to the M1.

lucernarian

Given the particulars of Slane village, it seems the only viable option is to build a new bridge at a new location nearby as part of a short bypass.

spacetweek

Aquarius34 wrote: »

How about new offline route south of the river?
...
What Slane needs is a new bridge. Traffic numbers on the N2 continues to decrease year on year now as the M1 has been continually extended and the N2 north of Ardee has now better links to the M1.

The best way of providing said bridge is to build the proposed bypass.
The M1 was completed in 2006 so any decrease you're seeing in traffic on the N2 is likely to have bottomed out at this stage. It will only increase from now on.

I also think a new offline route south of the Boyne should be built, but I'd make it a Regional Road and downgrade and truck-ban the existing N51. Traffic would use the new road and be signposted away from the existing one.

Slane Resident

Aquarius34 wrote: »

I honestly don't think an N2 bypass is needed. What Slane needs is a new bridge. Traffic numbers on the N2 continues to decrease year on year now as the M1 has been continually extended and the N2 north of Ardee has now better links to the M1.

A new bridge won't work without a bypass. A new bridge will do nothing for the steep incline on the N2 (the steepest incline on any national road in Europe) and it will do nothing for the practically 90 degree angle that lorries have to turn onto the bridge. A newer wider better bridge won't change any of that. Two of the most recent awful accidents, the March 2009 multi-vehicle pile-up in the middle of the village, and the death of David Garvey, didn't involve the bridge at all, they involved the incline on the Derry side of the village.

Someday

Is this stalled or pushed out for a long time?

Middle Man

Someday wrote: »

Is this stalled or pushed out for a long time?

It will eventually have to happen IMO - however, I'd say a general change of legislation (governing how infrastructure in this country is delivered) will be required so that common sense will prevail the next time a controversial bypass such as Slane is submitted to ABP. It is clear that narrow interests (both native and foreign) took precedence over the public interest - this IMO is totally wrong!

annfield1978

Tender for Consultancy Services for N2 Slane Bypass released trough TII Framework to take scheme through stages 1 to 4 of the PMGs

marno21

annfield1978 wrote: »

Tender for Consultancy Services for N2 Slane Bypass released trough TII Framework to take scheme through stages 1 to 4 of the PMGs

Should be open around 2026 with a bit of luck so.

spacetweek

marno21 wrote: »

Should be open around 2026 with a bit of luck so.

Actual estimate or is your sarcasm hat on? :cool:

marno21

In the Drogheda Independent this week...

http://www.independent.ie/regionals/droghedaindependent/news/slane-bypass-back-on-the-agenda-after-meeting-with-tii-35236506.html

spacetweek

Nothing new.

road_high

So they're basically just still talking about it then...

loyatemu

why don't they detrunk the N2 between the end of the M2 and Ardee - looking at google street maps, as you approach Ardee from the north the roadsigns give you the option of continuing to Dublin via the N2 or the N33/M1.

If the first option was removed from the signs, and the road downgraded to R, there'd be a lot less traffic going through Slane, which is the only other town on that stretch of road (sat-navs would favour N/M route over an R route, if they don't already). AFAIK This is why the N33 was built, but they only did half the job... (they still have Derry signposted at the M2 junction on the M50 as well).

Kevwoody

loyatemu wrote: »

why don't they detrunk the N2 between the end of the M2 and Ardee - looking at google street maps, as you approach Ardee from the north the roadsigns give you the option of continuing to Dublin via the N2 or the N33/M1.

If the first option was removed from the signs, and the road downgraded to R, there'd be a lot less traffic going through Slane, which is the only other town on that stretch of road (sat-navs would favour N/M route over an R route, if they don't already). AFAIK This is why the N33 was built, but they only did half the job... (they still have Derry signposted at the M2 junction on the M50 as well).

Is this a serious post??

It doesn't matter what the signs say or whether it's a National or Regional road, the road will remain the same, with the same amount of traffic.

road_high

loyatemu wrote: »

why don't they detrunk the N2 between the end of the M2 and Ardee - looking at google street maps, as you approach Ardee from the north the roadsigns give you the option of continuing to Dublin via the N2 or the N33/M1.

If the first option was removed from the signs, and the road downgraded to R, there'd be a lot less traffic going through Slane, which is the only other town on that stretch of road (sat-navs would favour N/M route over an R route, if they don't already). AFAIK This is why the N33 was built, but they only did half the job... (they still have Derry signposted at the M2 junction on the M50 as well).

It'll still need a bypass. It's a lot of local commuter traffic plus it's the shortest route to north Meath and Monaghan. Also purely from a safety standpoint it's a must. The incline heading south before the bridge is insane! Been lots of accidents here over the years. It's improved since they did all the safety works but it's still risky.

spacetweek

Kevwoody wrote: »

Is this a serious post??

It doesn't matter what the signs say or whether it's a National or Regional road, the road will remain the same, with the same amount of traffic.

People do follow signposts.
Though you'd really need to remove the M1 Drogheda toll for such a plan to be feasible.

loyatemu

Kevwoody wrote: »

It doesn't matter what the signs say or whether it's a National or Regional road, the road will remain the same,

Yes.

with the same amount of traffic.

No.

Long distance traffic follows signposts maps and satnav routes - detrunking the route would remove a lot of the traffic. Sure a bypass might still be needed, and there is an issue with tolls on the M1, but it could be done tomorrow at minimal cost.

What purpose does the N2 between Ashbourne and Ardee serve? Slane is the only other town on that section, M1+N33 is faster and safer, they should do whatever is necessary to encourage traffic onto that route.

marno21

spacetweek wrote: »

People do follow signposts.
Though you'd really need to remove the M1 Drogheda toll for such a plan to be feasible.

The M8 starts after the M7 toll, only a few kms after. Should the old N8 regain it's N8 designation because of this?

The N2 north of Ashbourne as far as Ardee doesn't really serve much of a national purpose as the route should be via the more safer and more capacitative M1.

L1011

Funnelling the non toll traffic through Drogheda would not prove popular.

road_high

Surely we can just use the current N2 plus the planned Slane bypass for the medium term. It's generally a good, wide 2 lane road. Do the bypass, leave the rest of the N2 south of Ardee then as it bar minor improvements thereafter.

Carawaystick

But the M1 is only a few km from Ardee, It makes no sense to have 2 national routes going to basically the same place.
Just ban HGV through traffic N/S in Ardee and Slane, only allowing e/w traffic on n51,52

Set up automatic speed cameras on the 30kmh section of existing road through Slane to encourage motorists to take an alternative route...

road_high

Carawaystick wrote: »

But the M1 is only a few km from Ardee, It makes no sense to have 2 national routes going to basically the same place.
Just ban HGV through traffic N/S in Ardee and Slane, only allowing e/w traffic on n51,52

Set up automatic speed cameras on the 30kmh section of existing road through Slane to encourage motorists to take an alternative route...

Slane still needs a bypass, it's as much a safety issue as it is traffic. I think they should do the bypass, but not upgrade the N2 any further between Ashbourne and Ardee after that...

Chris_5339762

Agreed on both counts... it needs its bypass (and a doubling of the bridge in the town). But the M1 is so closeby, should an S2 bypass be planned instead of the Type 2? And try to force traffic out of Slane onto the M1?

Certainly any time I come down the N2 I go via Ardee, or off at Castleblayney, onwards to Dundalk and down the M1. I'd never come through Slane and go south, the M1 is so much faster (and easier)

Middle Man

Carawaystick wrote: »

But the M1 is only a few km from Ardee, It makes no sense to have 2 national routes going to basically the same place.
Just ban HGV through traffic N/S in Ardee and Slane, only allowing e/w traffic on n51,52

Set up automatic speed cameras on the 30kmh section of existing road through Slane to encourage motorists to take an alternative route...

Are you from Meath? - Do you know anything about the Slane area?

Irish Steve

road_high wrote: »

Slane still needs a bypass, it's as much a safety issue as it is traffic. I think they should do the bypass, but not upgrade the N2 any further between Ashbourne and Ardee after that...

Really? Have you tried to get on to the M2 at Ashbourne in the morning peak recently? The M2 needs to be extended beyond Ashbourne to at least the Kentstown junction, or even slightly further, and there is a serious urgency about doing something between Ashbourne and Kilmoon cross in order to solve the ongoing problems that are caused by the lights at Primatestown, which are only going to get worse as Tayto Park expands.

Some of the issues are the Tolls on the M1, M3 and the M50, which mean a significant number of vehicles are using the N/M2 in preference to the M1, or M3, and then going cross country via Ratoath and Dunboyne to places like Maynooth and Naas, but I don't see any early change to the present tolling system.

unicorn97

Carawaystick wrote: »

But the M1 is only a few km from Ardee, It makes no sense to have 2 national routes going to basically the same place.
Just ban HGV through traffic N/S in Ardee and Slane, only allowing e/w traffic on n51,52

Set up automatic speed cameras on the 30kmh section of existing road through Slane to encourage motorists to take an alternative route...

Please tell me you're joking.

How can the locals of Slane be tortured into crawling up and down them hills at 30km/h with speed cameras on them.

The stupidity of these speed limits are what cause accidents:mad: