Another "jump the shark moment" for Chavez

ei.sdraob

Truthrevolution wrote: »

Ok have read the articles and watched the videos, still no real evidence of violence other than a bit of pushing and shoving for food supplies..........
Heres an account of whats happening on the ground from an aid worker

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/jan/20/haiti-aid-agency-security

i posted a link earlier to a man who was shot dead, was part of convoy who set out to install emergency communication equipment

heres more

SANTO DOMINGO – Two Dominicans were seriously wounded after being shot Saturday as they handed out aid in quake-stricken Haiti, local media here reported.

According to reports, Carlos Gatas and Milton Matos arrived at the embassy of the Dominican Republic in Port-au-Prince with gunshot wounds after an apparent attack.

Gatas' injuries were so serious that Dominican armed forces evacuated him by helicopter to Jimani on the border with Haiti and then on to Barahona, for treatment at a local hospital.

Matos was treated at a building being used the UN peacekeeping force MINUSTAH, reports said.

Aid has been pouring into Haiti in the wake of Tuesday's massive 7.0 earthquake, but poor organization and the difficult logistical situation has made it hard to get the relief out to the country's desperate population.

http://newsinfo.inquirer.net/breakingnews/world/view/20100117-247832/2-Dominicans-shot-in-Haiti-during-relief-effort


<sarcasm>
but lets ignore reports of people who are trying to help being killed or injured, because a journalist in the Guardian opinion peace says so

brazilian, canadian and american soldiers are there to occupy the country (why?) not to help provide some stability and order

Truthrevolution

Overheal wrote: »

......And violently beating people to a pulp with no evident signs of remorse.

Please read my article before posting silly messages.Nobody was beaten to a pulp, a handful of men wielding sticks through a crowd but nobody getting injured

Truthrevolution

ei.sdraob wrote: »

i posted a link earlier to a man who was shot dead, was part of convoy who set out to install emergency communication equipment

heres more



http://newsinfo.inquirer.net/breakingnews/world/view/20100117-247832/2-Dominicans-shot-in-Haiti-during-relief-effort


<sarcasm>
but lets ignore reports of people who are trying to help being killed or injured, because a journalist in the Guardian opinion peace says so

brazilian, canadian and american soldiers are there to occupy the country (why?) not to help provide some stability and order

Im not saying theres absolutely no violence going on in Haiti, but the situation is being exaggerated and made look alot worse than it is.Any small incidences of aggression recorded are being sensationalised and flashed before our screens by mainstream media.The UN is saying that they are holding back aid supplies because of this violence and if the military cant hold some stability in a small island such as Haiti then what hope have we got in fighting real terrorism.

Haiti is being primarily occupied by US troops with assistence from other countries, those of you who think that that the US are not going to occupy Haiti to take advantage of its resources are being seriously naive.Some of you guys need a serious wake up call.

southsiderosie

Truthrevolution wrote: »

Im not saying theres absolutely no violence going on in Haiti, but the situation is being exaggerated and made look alot worse than it is.Any small incidences of aggression recorded are being sensationalised and flashed before our screens by mainstream media.The UN is saying that they are holding back aid supplies because of this violence and if the military cant hold some stability in a small island such as Haiti then what hope have we got in fighting real terrorism.

Haiti is being primarily occupied by US troops with assistence from other countries, those of you who think that that the US are not going to occupy Haiti to take advantage of its resources are being seriously naive.Some of you guys need a serious wake up call.

I've asked this before, and I'll ask it again: what resources does Haiti have to take advantage of???

Truthrevolution

southsiderosie wrote: »

I've asked this before, and I'll ask it again: what resources does Haiti have to take advantage of???

Read this interesting article, use the google bar at the top of the page to translate it.

http://www.metropolehaiti.com/metropole/full_une_fr.php?id=13439

ei.sdraob

southsiderosie wrote: »

I've asked this before, and I'll ask it again: what resources does Haiti have to take advantage of???

same, that really does throw a wrench into conspiracy theories being flamed by Chavez and Co

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haiti

It had a nominal GDP of 7.018 billion USD in 2009,

we (unfortunately ) handed more money than that to our banks last year to put things into perspective

Mangoes and coffee are two of Haiti's most important exports

Foreign aid makes up approximately 30–40% of the national government's budget. The largest donor is the United States – followed by Canada, and the European Union

there were Brazilian troops in the country for years now on a UN mission, there are now Canadian and US troops trying to bring some sort of order into a country that was already falling apart before the quake
you have the police chief in the Haitian capital appealing for help

how is that an "invasion"?


For Chavez and people here to shout invasion while ignoring the situation there is rather silly and malicious

ei.sdraob

Truthrevolution wrote: »

Read this interesting article, use the google bar at the top of the page to translate it.

http://www.metropolehaiti.com/metropole/full_une_fr.php?id=13439

can the mods move this thread to Conspiracy Theories forum

this thread has got rather rediculos for politics forum with a lot of "allegations" and little facts being posted


earthquake weapons, invasion over claimed oil. i regret joining this thread its rather on the loolaaa side of things

Truthrevolution

ei.sdraob wrote: »

can the mods move this thread to Conspiracy Theories forum

this thread has got rather rediculos for politics forum with a lot of "allegations" and little facts being posted


earthquake weapons, invasion over claimed oil. i regret joining this thread its rather on the loolaaa side of things

Ah...... the typical soundbite, when loosing a debate just write off your opponent as a conspiracy theorist

ei.sdraob

Truthrevolution wrote: »

Ah...... the typical soundbite, when loosing a debate just write off your opponent as a conspiracy theorist

you are correct my friend

its an invasion to take over Haiti's proven oil reserves

:pac:

Joey the lips

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE60G2DW20100117

No mention of earthquake machines... I detect the old fashioned sparring with the US. Nothing worthy of such daft theories.

Overheal

Truthrevolution wrote: »

Please read my article before posting silly messages.Nobody was beaten to a pulp, a handful of men wielding sticks through a crowd but nobody getting injured

I have.

Please watch The Associated Press video I posted.

Truthrevolution wrote: »

Ah...... the typical soundbite, when loosing a debate just write off your opponent as a conspiracy theorist

Perhaps instead of getting so defensive you can support your claims that the United States (and the United Nations) is Conspiring to extort Haiti for its Resources.

Truthrevolution wrote:

Haiti is being primarily occupied by US troops with assistence [sic] from other countries, those of you who think that that the US are not going to occupy Haiti to take advantage of its resources are being seriously naive.Some of you guys need a serious wake up call.

Truthrevolution

Overheal wrote: »

I have.

Please watch The Associated Press video I posted.

Perhaps instead of getting so defensive you can support your claims that the United States (and the United Nations) is Conspiring to extort Haiti for its Resources.

First of all i never claimed that the UN are extorting Haiti for anything.I did however provide a link a few posts back with Haiti officials stating that the US have reserved strategic oil deposits on the island.

And if your still under the illusion that the US isnt there for long term occupation, here it is from the horses mouth in Washington
http://presstv.ir/detail.aspx?id=116762&sectionid=351020706

Heres a video showing the upsurge in troops drafting into Haiti.The locals are claiming that they dont think its necessary for all the military activity, defence minister is also shown backing up their claims.Looks to me more like an invasion than a humanitarian aid.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FyGAgW2psn0

Joey the lips

Just for the record it seems we have yet to see actual credable sources of chavez blaming tectonic weapons but just in case you though he was delusional and on his own it seems the russians believe the same

"The U.S. is creating new integral geophysical weapons that may influence the near-Earth medium with high-frequency radio waves ... The significance of this qualitative leap could be compared to the transition from cold steel to firearms, or from conventional weapons to nuclear weapons. This new type of weapons differs from previous types in that the near-Earth medium becomes at once an object of direct influence and its component"

I can provide a linkies if you wish.

southsiderosie

Truthrevolution wrote: »

Read this interesting article, use the google bar at the top of the page to translate it.

http://www.metropolehaiti.com/metropole/full_une_fr.php?id=13439

Hm, the translation I got was pretty mangled, and I can't read French. From what I got, Haiti has untapped oil reserves, but hasn't tapped them because the US has claimed the entire Caribbean basin? I hope that is not what the article actually said, because that is nonsensical.

I found a blog which posted materials making similar claims in English, and again I don't buy it. First of all, Haiti doesn't even appear on the list of countries with proven reserves; whatever is there may be purely speculative. Second of all, these days, developing countries who want to tap their oil reserves don't need US or European multinationals to do it - they can call on the Chinese (CNOOC) or the Brazilians (Petrobras) to set up public-private partnerships. Petrobras in particular is a good example of this kind of public-private enterprise, and they are one of the most technically advanced operations in the world. If these reserves are so significant, then why hasn't the Haitian government invited foreign investment in to exploit them? Finally, it's not clear to my why the US would have control over oil fields in a sovereign territory as the original article seems to claim. The US government can't claim the entire region as a "reserve"; Trinidad and Tobago is a small Caribbean country with lots of oil and gas that they have been pumping for years, and we haven't bulldozed over them yet :rolleyes:.

Joey the lips

http://www.cnbc.com/id/35049676/site/14081545/for/cnbc/

It seems italy might agree with "those south american dictators."

southsiderosie

Joey the lips wrote: »

http://www.cnbc.com/id/35049676/site/14081545/for/cnbc/

It seems italy might agree with "those south american dictators."

I agree with the Italian minister that the response has been chaotic, but my question would be, what is the answer? He offers that there needs to be some kind of international organization that is charge; well the UN was there, but most of their administrative staff was killed in the earthquake. As for the EU, well, they can't agree on anything when it comes to EU political issues, much less foreign policy issues. The humanitarian aid groups are all screaming that nobody is in charge, but then they don't like the approach of the US. Ultimately, the coordinator for the relief effort should have been the Haitian government, and they have failed miserably in this regard.

I actually see some of the aid groups as part of the problem, to be honest. Yes they provide essential services (which is good), but too often they do so independent of the state, meaning there is weakened state capacity when it comes to providing services, and there is little to no accountability on the part of the state to its citizens. Haiti is basically a client state of aid organizations, many of which function as semi-autonomous groups. So is it any wonder that there is chaos today - there is a weak government, a bunch of pre-existing aid fiefdoms, and no external "point organization" with the capacity to organize what is an unprecedented disaster relief effort.

Finally, I think the constant comparisons to Katrina are wrong-headed in that the failure of the initial response was a failure of state and local government, not national government. The only organizations that came out of Katrina looking competent were the Coast Guard and the National Guard, i.e. the military.

Joey the lips

southsiderosie wrote: »

I agree with the Italian minister that the response has been chaotic,........

My point was its not only chavez that thinks the us approach is wrong. Its just chavez is a "Sound bite" as phrased earlier by which the world seem to base many of there responses on, in otherwords they do the opposite to what he says. This despite the massive amount of oil the country exports into the world economy.

We seem to find it easier to be critical of a socialist like chavez and his policies then looking at world policy in general and asking questions like

Why are so many africian countries allowed still carry on with corrupt govt and cause the genocide and starvation of so many people?

Then again when asking this we have to ask western influence on these countries.

So really when you look at how fooked up the world is its rearly far apart from the greed of western influence. I can give example....


However we then look at countries like

Cuba. Its world classs health service

China. Most of the worlds ecomony is based on chinese demand and its saving

Cuba. = oil

These are predomonantly socialist countries and while socialism in its pure form is unpallatable to many I cannot see where capitalism in its pure form has benefited the many but rather the few at the top..

southsiderosie

Joey the lips wrote: »

My point was its not only chavez that thinks the us approach is wrong. Its just chavez is a "Sound bite" as phrased earlier by which the world seem to base many of there responses on, in otherwords they do the opposite to what he says. This despite the massive amount of oil the country exports into the world economy.

We seem to find it easier to be critical of a socialist like chavez and his policies then looking at world policy in general and asking questions like

Why are so many africian countries allowed still carry on with corrupt govt and cause the genocide and starvation of so many people?

Then again when asking this we have to ask western influence on these countries.

So really when you look at how fooked up the world is its rearly far apart from the greed of western influence. I can give example....


However we then look at countries like

Cuba. Its world classs health service

China. Most of the worlds ecomony is based on chinese demand and its saving

Cuba. = oil

These are predomonantly socialist countries and while socialism in its pure form is unpallatable to many I cannot see where capitalism in its pure form has benefited the many but rather the few at the top..

But the difference between Chavez and the Italian minister is that Chavez thinks the US is "invading" Haiti out of some kind of imperial ambitions, whereas the Italians don't like that the US is taking a military approach to a humanitarian crisis.

This is not a thread about Cuba and its health service, and I am not going to get involved in that argument again. As for China, I would not classify them as a socialist state, I would call them state-run capitalism. Actually, it's not clear to me where a debate about socialism belongs in this thread at all.

The original point of the thread was already addressed: there is not a great deal of evidence that Chavez said that the US caused the earthquake. However, there is plenty of evidence that he has claimed that the US is trying to benefit from Haiti's current misery. Like I said in a previous post, I don't see what kind of economic or "imperialist" benefit the US gets out of involvement with Haiti. And I think Chavez's ranting against the US has less to do with an actual beef grounded in reality (in contrast to the Italian minister), and more to do with the fact that the louder he bangs the drum against the US (and earns the rapturous attention of anti-US leftists), the more he distracts attention from the increasingly repressive actions of his government against its own citizens.

ei.sdraob

southsiderosie wrote: »

, the more he distracts attention from the increasingly repressive actions of his government against its own citizens.

bingo

above + dismantling a democratic system for his aims


something that @JoetheLips rather prefers to ignore, since his the favorite "socialist" dictator of the month right now

after all why would people need those pesky things like liberty, freedom of speech, democracy (all lacking in Cuba,China and Venezuela)

when you can have healthcare (Cuba) or exporting economy based on destroying its people and environment (China)

meditraitor

nesf wrote: »

*waits patiently for Chavez fans to find a way to support this*

Waits patiently for the anti chavez crew to start another strawman thread.

Not a shred of truth in this one

Joey the lips

ei.sdraob wrote: »

something that @JoetheLips rather prefers to ignore, since his the favorite "socialist" dictator of the month right now

after all why would people need those pesky things like liberty, freedom of speech, democracy (all lacking in Cuba,China and Venezuela)

when you can have healthcare (Cuba) or exporting economy based on destroying its people and environment (China)

I have ignored you for a reason and will be ignoring you and that reason is you have a problem with chavez which extends beyond any thread. You will simply hate the man where as i tend to look at the whole picture and always have.

In thee real world even ireland everybody is jumping on someones back. I tend to believe what chevez is attempting to do is change that and yes I am for that.

ei.sdraob

Joey the lips wrote: »

I have ignored you for a reason and will be ignoring you and that reason is you have a problem with chavez which extends beyond any thread. You will simply hate the man where as i tend to look at the whole picture and always have.

In thee real world even ireland everybody is jumping on someones back. I tend to believe what chevez is attempting to do is change that and yes I am for that.

you support him and people like him

even if that type of "change" means him taking away liberties from the people, dismantling democracy and squandering resources?

the very type of "change" that we have seen fail miserably in other countries, and leaving the people of these countries impoverished and miserable

Joey the lips

ei.sdraob wrote: »

you support him and people like him

even if that type of "change" means him taking away liberties from the people, dismantling democracy and squandering resources?

the very type of "change" that we have seen fail miserably in other countries, and leaving the people of these countries impoverished and miserable

LOL.....You must have missed the memo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M82ipyqnD1I


You focusing incorrectly on chevez. Its happening in your back yard.

Liberty equality and fratarnity...me asre! get real please and as stated earlier try offer proof thats crediable.

If you want to see examples of this in ireland just look at the special criminal courts and preposed extensions of its power.

You live in a bubble. You assume you are free but your not. You assume chavez is holding a country to ransom but he is not.

If you want a focus. Start looking a zimbabwe. A dictator at heart and a dictator installed. By european govts no less!

I love this comparrission. Two countries seperated by immensene oil reserves.

ei.sdraob

Joey the lips wrote: »

LOL.....You must have missed the memo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M82ipyqnD1I


You focusing incorrectly on chevez. Its happening in your back yard.

Liberty equality and fratarnity...me asre! get real please and as stated earlier try offer proof thats crediable.

If you want to see examples of this in ireland just look at the special criminal courts and preposed extensions of its power.

You live in a bubble. You assume you are free but your not. You assume chavez is holding a country to ransom but he is not.

If you want a focus. Start looking a zimbabwe. A dictator at heart and a dictator installed. By european govts no less!

I love this comparrission. Two countries seperated by immensene oil reserves.

2 wrongs make a right?

trying to deflect from the subject are we? how about Cuba then or China

if you admire them so much why dont you move there?

Joey the lips

ei.sdraob wrote: »

2 wrongs make a right?

trying to deflect from the subject are we? how about Cuba then or China

if you admire them so much why dont you move there?

No deflection. Its you who is deflecting. The facts hurt and you know it.

ei.sdraob

Joey the lips wrote: »

No deflection. Its you who is deflecting. The facts hurt and you know it.

what facts? that Venezuela, Cuba or China are great places to live as a citizen (subject)?? and its all hunky dory in these socialist/communist paradises?

Joey the lips

ei.sdraob wrote: »

what facts? that Venezuela, Cuba or China are great places to live as a citizen (subject)?? and its all hunky dory in these socialist/communist paradises?

Please refere to the op's arguement and try your best to provide non existent proof. I never said it was hunky dory. Life is not hunky dory otherwise i would have 12 blessed virgins hanging out of me. Life is a struggle and clearly the west is afraid of chavez. I am amazed he has not made the terror list.

But oh no i am not because then he will cut out put and fook up the american ecomnomy.

This is truly a wag the dog arguement. Please offer proof as i am done with this arguement.

ei.sdraob

Joey the lips wrote: »

Please refere to the op's arguement and try your best to provide non existent proof. I never said it was hunky dory. Life is not hunky dory otherwise i would have 12 blessed virgins hanging out of me. Life is a struggle and clearly the west is afraid of chavez. I am amazed he has not made the terror list.

But oh no i am not because then he will cut out put and fook up the american ecomnomy.

This is truly a wag the dog arguement. Please offer proof as i am done with this arguement.

the problems in these socialist paradises are all due to the evil US empire and nothing to do with the socialist system itself being fundamentally flawed

right, i understand now

Joey the lips

ei.sdraob wrote: »

the problems in these socialist paradises are all due to the evil US empire and nothing to do with the socialist system itself being fundamentally flawed

right, i understand now

Would you like to ask the audience....


You just dont get it. There is nooooooo prooooof to the op's arguement and you have noooooo arguement.

edanto

ei.sdraob wrote: »

what facts? that Venezuela, Cuba or China are great places to live as a citizen (subject)?? and its all hunky dory in these socialist/communist paradises?

Oh come on!!! You can't be seriously suggesting that China is a socialist/communist country?

On any measure, it's communist in name only. A much better description for the system in China would be authoritarian capitalist. They are using the worst features of totalitarian societies and capitalist principles to make a society that I would hate to live in.

It's off topic for this thread, but I'd be happy to discuss it with you in another. I've no interest in this ridiculous thread, but couldn't let that comment go past.

China a communist paradise, hilarious! It's more likely that they call the party communist just to give communism a bad name.