Another "jump the shark moment" for Chavez

ei.sdraob

edanto wrote: »

Oh come on!!! You can't be seriously suggesting that China is a socialist/communist country?

On any measure, it's communist in name only. A much better description for the system in China would be authoritarian capitalist. They are using the worst features of totalitarian societies and capitalist principles to make a society that I would hate to live in.

It's off topic for this thread, but I'd be happy to discuss it with you in another. I've no interest in this ridiculous thread, but couldn't let that comment go past.

China a communist paradise, hilarious! It's more likely that they call the party communist just to give communism a bad name.

you are right about China

the 3 countries mentioned have one thing in common the "authoritarian" streak of the "ruling party" where citizens freedoms are very limited and democratic systems are trampled on or non existent

hence why i fail to see why JoeTheLips admires these places

its funny how they start as "socialist" and endup as "authoritarian" hellholes

Joey the lips

For the record. I dont believe any economic principles as paradise. However I admire someone who tries to look after the many rather than the few. Its something i think the capitalist economy lacks.

For example

The many = China The Few = Ireland.

The many = Venezuela The Few = The US

You catch my drift. Sometimes you need to try new ideas.

Joey the lips

ei.sdraob wrote: »

hence why i fail to see why JoeTheLips admires these places

Your right you cannot see because you have not opened your eyes. You still have not proven the op's point. You or anyone else.

Maybe china would be a better discussion point.

southsiderosie

meditraitor wrote: »

Waits patiently for the anti chavez crew to start another strawman thread.

Not a shred of truth in this one

Who is saying that the original story is true? As the thread notes, the only report of this came from a right-wing newspaper, and there is no mention of it on Chavez's website. There are plenty of reasons to dislike Chavez, but rumors of his making claims about the US causing the earthquake are not one of them, since they seem to be unsubstantiated.

Please refere to the op's arguement and try your best to provide non existent proof. I never said it was hunky dory. Life is not hunky dory otherwise i would have 12 blessed virgins hanging out of me. Life is a struggle and clearly the west is afraid of chavez. I am amazed he has not made the terror list.

There are plenty in the West who support Chavez. They are the same crew who support Fidel Castro, or any other authoritarian populist leader who thumbs their nose at the US. That may make you feel warm and fuzzy, but have any Chavez & Co. supporters actually been to Venezuela, Cuba, or Nicaragua? And not just on vacation, but actually talked to locals who weren't party officials (which, by the way, would get them in BIG trouble with the government in Cuba)? Or met with political dissidents?

The Castro regime and Daniel Ortega have turned their back on the revolutionary egalitarian principles that they built their support on in order to stay in power. Cuba now has a two-tiered economic and social structure so that the regime can gain hard currency. This is not egalitarian. Chavez is Castro Jr. with oil. Ortega went from leading a Sandinista movement that was feminist in a state riddled with machismo, to kow-towing to the Catholic Church - not to mention the deals he has cut with the right in order to hang on to power, or his persecution of leftist political parties that splintered from the Sandinista movement precisely because Ortega sees his personal power as more important than remaining true to revolutionary socialist principles. This is also not egalitarian. But of course, anyone who dares to criticize the hard left in Latin America is clearly a wild-eyed capitalist or some kind of reactionary. :rolleyes:

ei.sdraob

Joey the lips wrote: »

For the record. I dont believe any economic principles as paradise. However I admire someone who tries to look after the many rather than the few. Its something i think the capitalist economy lacks.

in ireland and western europe we dont look after the many or the poor?

please remind us how much someone "poor" or without a job would get in Ireland, China, Cuba or Venezuela for doing nothing

Joey the lips

ei.sdraob wrote: »

in ireland and western europe we dont look after the many or the poor?

please remind us how much someone "poor" or without a job would get in Ireland, China, Cuba or Venezuela for doing nothing

again your diverting you assume you do nothing when you have not got a job. Your not allowed do nothing.

I see pages and pages of arguements on boards about people giving out because those on the dole that do nothin.

ei.sdraob

Joey the lips wrote: »

again your diverting you assume you do nothing when you have not got a job. Your not allowed do nothing.

I see pages and pages of arguements on boards about people giving out because those on the dole that do nothin.

eh? wtf are you talking about??

i pointed out that here in ireland you can be out of job, or not even bother getting a job for that matter and can still live a comfortable life and not starve or die like these places above

to say that we dont take care of the less well of is very ignorant, its those people who are working in the capitalist private sector that account for most of the taxes payed (taxes that go to pay welfare etc) and earn hard money via exporting things, who would pay taxes in your socialist system? the whole Venezuelan system would collapse into a disaster if they didn't have oil (as happened in Cuba) or they would have to open doors to enterprise (as happened in China) or it would collapse as theres no incentives to work or will to live under a repressive regime (as happened in USSR)

meditraitor

southsiderosie wrote: »

Who is saying that the original story is true? As the thread notes, the only report of this came from a right-wing newspaper, and there is no mention of it on Chavez's website. There are plenty of reasons to dislike Chavez, but rumors of his making claims about the US causing the earthquake are not one of them, since they seem to be unsubstantiated.

Thats my point, this thread was started with the sole purpose of giving anti-chavez warriors a chance to vent their spleen with crap about Chavez, opinions rather than realities.

For example

The man is a joke, its just a pity so many can't/won't see it, prefering to think that anyone who is anti-USA must be worth supporting.

Whether this story is actually true or not, it's sad that it seems completely plausible that Chavez would say something like this; he is no stranger to bizarre statements and proposals.

its rather sick to see that Chavez is the one using this disaster for political point scoring

now the conversation has moved on to why Chavez is making farting noises about other countries trying to help Haiti (and hence why i wouldnt put it past him to say something as silly as the op article claims)

Chavez is a bit of a clown - typical raving el Presidente type. Happily I live many thousands of miles from Venezeula so I dont have to suffer the consequences of the rabid support he was given by others as he destroyed constitutional democracy in Venezeula. Happily for the majority of them, they also live many thousands of miles from Venezeula.

I guess the only losers are Venezeulans who have been ground down into quasi-slavery in a charismatic dictatorship and are suffering massive electricity rationing ( in a country blessed with massive oil reserves) as the economic incompetence underlying socialism comes home to roost.

I wonder though - If Chavez was to lose the next election, does anyone think he would admit it and go quietly? Having already prepared by creating and arming party militias to defend the revolution?

Of course it seems a little crazy for Chavez to rave on about sekrit US earthquake weapons. But this is Chavez. The same man who predicted a massive US invasion of Venezeula....any second now. And also declared war on golf, and has every turn attempted to polarise Venezeula and create and stoke internal conflict so as to better cement his own power. The guy is a clown. Even the most stalwart socialist is a little embarrassed to be associated with him these days.

This is not the first thread started as a soapbox for the vacuous anti-chavez bile that some people like to spout.

The thing is some of these poster are well respected and I feel they are letting themselves down by spouting basically malicious gossip(media hypnotised)


By all means start a thread and post about injustices in the Venesuelan socialist agenda but please post facts and opinions based on knowledge rather than ignorant smeer campaign rhetoric with no basis in reality

southsiderosie

meditraitor wrote: »

Thats my point, this thread was started with the sole purpose of giving anti-chavez warriors a chance to vent their spleen with crap about Chavez, opinions rather than realities.

This is not the first thread started as a soapbox for the vacuous anti-chavez bile that some people like to spout.

The thing is some of these poster are well respected and I feel they are letting themselves down by spouting basically malicious gossip(media hypnotised)


By all means start a thread and post about injustices in the Venesuelan socialist agenda but please post facts and opinions based on knowledge rather than ignorant smeer campaign rhetoric with no basis in reality

Yes, I will own up to my statement:

Whether this story is actually true or not, it's sad that it seems completely plausible that Chavez would say something like this; he is no stranger to bizarre statements and proposals.

Given that Chavez enjoys making theatrical, provocative statements (especially against the US), at first glance, yes, it seemed entirely plausible that he would say that Los Yanquis caused the earthquake. That said, the original source has been discredited in the thread, so let's just move on.

Let's also not pretend that there has not been more that a few jingoistic pro-Chavez/Castro postings on the boards. The pro-Chavez/Castro crowd can be quite dismissive of other viewpoints of the regimes. While one can perhaps debate the merits of a socialist or capitalist system, I have yet to see anyone from the "pro" camp seriously engage with concerns about attacks on independent media in Venezuela or labor market dualism and rising inequality in Cuba, for example. When confronted with these well-documented issues, the response is "oh, well everything they do they do for the people" or "well, that's not a credible source". Or they change the subject to the evils of capitalism. But you don't have to like capitalism to dislike authoritarianism.

Overheal

Joey the lips wrote: »

Just for the record it seems we have yet to see actual credable sources of chavez blaming tectonic weapons but just in case you though he was delusional and on his own it seems the russians believe the same

"The U.S. is creating new integral geophysical weapons that may influence the near-Earth medium with high-frequency radio waves ... The significance of this qualitative leap could be compared to the transition from cold steel to firearms, or from conventional weapons to nuclear weapons. This new type of weapons differs from previous types in that the near-Earth medium becomes at once an object of direct influence and its component"

I can provide a linkies if you wish.

A link to wikipedia you mean? No thanks, I have it here.

The near earth medium they are talking about of course is the Ionosphere, not the Crust or the Upper Mantle :rolleyes:

HAARP has been linked to many and varied Conspiracy Theories. Most of which revolve around Mind Control.

Unless they're mind controlling the Mole People I don't see how HAARP is relevant.

dvpower

southsiderosie wrote: »

Given that Chavez enjoys making theatrical, provocative statements (especially against the US), at first glance, yes, it seemed entirely plausible that he would say that Los Yanquis caused the earthquake.

Chavez says "Bush es El Diablo" and Bush thinks he has a direct line to God!

One of them is lying.

ei.sdraob

dvpower wrote: »

Chavez says "Bush es El Diablo" and Bush thinks he has a direct line to God!

One of them is lying.

did you not get the memo a year ago? Bush is no longer the president (thank god) and was voted out

now Chavez on other hand is still hanging around like a bad smell, rewriting the constitution to keep himself in power indefinitely

and once again 2 wrongs/lunatics dont make wrongdoing/lunacy "right"

Joey the lips

Overheal wrote: »

A link to wikipedia you mean? No thanks, I have it here.

The near earth medium they are talking about of course is the Ionosphere, not the Crust or the Upper Mantle :rolleyes:

HAARP has been linked to many and varied Conspiracy Theories. Most of which revolve around Mind Control.

Unless they're mind controlling the Mole People I don't see how HAARP is relevant.

Thank you my point exactly. So if he did not discuss haarp and he is just complaining like others about the motives of troops in hati

What is the problem..........

dvpower

ei.sdraob wrote: »

did you not get the memo a year ago? Bush is no longer the president (thank god) and was voted out

I did get that memo last year, however the post I was responding to (that introduced Bush) was just an hour old.

ei.sdraob wrote: »

and once again 2 wrongs/lunatics dont make wrongdoing/lunacy "right"

I wouldn't dream of suggesting it. I've made no comment on Chavez in this thread, except to call him an a**hole

ei.sdraob

dvpower wrote: »

I did get that memo last year, however the post I was responding to (that introduced Bush) was just an hour old.


I wouldn't dream of suggesting it. I've made no comment on Chavez in this thread, except to call him an a**hole

both of them should be locked together in the same prison cell

meditraitor

southsiderosie wrote: »

Let's also not pretend that there has not been more that a few jingoistic pro-Chavez/Castro postings on the boards. The pro-Chavez/Castro crowd can be quite dismissive of other viewpoints of the regimes. While one can perhaps debate the merits of a socialist or capitalist system, I have yet to see anyone from the "pro" camp seriously engage with concerns about attacks on independent media in Venezuela or labor market dualism and rising inequality in Cuba, for example. When confronted with these well-documented issues, the response is "oh, well everything they do they do for the people" or "well, that's not a credible source". Or they change the subject to the evils of capitalism. But you don't have to like capitalism to dislike authoritarianism.

Again you are ignoring my point and trying to engage me in a debate that has no merit especially when you consider that this thread is pure nonsense and only being kept alive by anti chavez posters who post nothing but vitriol and schoolyard insults.

If you want a debate on

the attacks on independent media in Venezuela or labor market dualism and rising inequality in Cuba

then by all means start a thread but as usual the anti chavez camp use sensationism and lies to continue the campaign their US based media slavemasters have set them.

FYI -I could debate either side of that argument equally well, their is enough daft rhetoric posted on websites by both sides but very little proof of chavez being a monster.

Start a thread with some valid points and I will engage but continue on this route of posting nonsense(not you but you are part of the propoganda kabal) and personal insults when you dont personally know the man (me neither but I would never call him a moron because I could never proove it) and I will gladley shoot you down every time.

Mark

Exile 1798

It's telling that there is an entire media industry dedicated to attacking the Chavez government.

I don't seem to remember anyone caring about the government or conditions of the average person in Venezuela when it was ruled by a self serving oligarchy. An oil-rich elite who made no attempt to improve the lives of the vast majority of the population who where left to rot in their slums.

Whatever the future government, the Chavez movement has changed Venezuela forever by enfranchising this poor majority. Any future governing party, whether centre Right or centre Left will have to cater to these people. That's a success worthy of our admiration, no matter how much Western anti-Chavez crusaders may bitch.

ei.sdraob

Exile 1798 wrote: »

It's telling that there is an entire media industry dedicated to attacking the Chavez government.

I don't seem to remember anyone caring about the government or conditions of the average person in Venezuela when it was ruled by a self serving oligarchy. An oil-rich elite who made no attempt to improve the lives of the vast majority of the population who where left to rot in their slums.

Whatever the future government, the Chavez movement has changed Venezuela forever by enfranchising this poor majority. Any future governing party, whether centre Right or centre Left will have to cater to these people. That's a success worthy of our admiration, no matter how much Western anti-Chavez crusaders may bitch.

Fidel Castro was also "better" than Batista for the people

50 years later would you still say the same? funny how one dictator got replaced by another and somehow thats a good thing

Exile 1798

ei.sdraob wrote: »

Fidel Castro was also "better" than Batista for the people

50 years later would you still say the same? funny how one dictator got replaced by another and somehow thats a good thing

Castro and Cuba is another topic.

Chavez is not a dictator but a thrice democratically elected President.

meditraitor

Exile 1798 wrote: »

Castro and Cuba is another topic.

Chavez is not a dictator but a thrice democratically elected President.

You might as well be pissing in the window brother, most anti-chavez posters will avoid discussing this little detail and move onto the "Cahvez is a monster" who eats cavier and drinks champagne while his country goes up in flames...

The problem with these Nero Delusions is they never have any real proof and when they get called out on it they just disappear of the thread for a couple of days till they see another media induced oppertunity(basless fact) to condemn.

ei.sdraob

Exile 1798 wrote: »

Castro and Cuba is another topic.

Chavez is not a dictator but a thrice democratically elected President.

yes by changing constitution to allow him rule indefinitely

appointing judges and jailing any judge that doesnt do what he says

and by jailing any opposition


yes very democratic this Chavez guy is

meditraitor wrote:

You might as well be pissing in the window brother, most anti-chavez posters will avoid discussing this little detail and move onto the "Cahvez is a monster" who eats cavier and drinks champagne while his country goes up in flames...

The problem with these Nero Delusions is they never have any real proof and when they get called out on it they just disappear of the thread for a couple of days till they see another media induced oppertunity(basless fact) to condemn.

simple question, does he live in the same slums as the average people

meditraitor

ei.sdraob wrote: »

yes by changing constitution to allow him rule indefinitely]

Please provide proof to this?

Actually let me save you the trouble, he didnt change the constitution he put it to the people and they refused.

Misleading= much

ei.sdraob wrote: »

appointing judges and jailing any judge that doesnt do what he says

The institutions were riddled with corruption and cronyism before the new constitiution of 1999 and one of the main tenants in the constitution was to sort this out and he is doing so....
The rich ruled the judiciary in Venesuela and now it run by the people.
What a monstrous idea

ei.sdraob wrote: »

and by jailing any opposition

Only those guilty of a crime

ei.sdraob wrote: »

yes very democratic this Chavez guy is

Voted by the people for the people

ei.sdraob wrote: »

simple question, does he live in the same slums as the average people

Of course not because he is the democratically elected president of the country with the 8th biggest oil reserve on the planet.

He may be socialist but he is not a complete nut, how could he get anything done from a home in the slum.

ei.sdraob

meditraitor wrote: »

The institutions were riddled with corruption and cronyism before the new constitiution of 1999 and one of the main tenants in the constitution was to sort this out and he is doing so....
The rich ruled the judiciary in Venesuela and now it run by the people.
What a monstrous idea

he jailed a judge (which ironically he appointed! among others) for carrying out a sentence which didnt agree with Chavez

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/feedarticle/8857391

still claiming its a democracy?

Exile 1798

ei.sdraob wrote: »

yes by changing constitution to allow him rule indefinitely

This either shows your lack of honesty or your lack of comprehension of these issues.

The abolishment of term limits, requiring a change in the Venezuelan constitution, was put to a referendum. Referendums are the normal procedure for making changes to national constitutions. You understand this don't you?

You do understand the difference between a lack of term limits and a dictatorship don't you? At the time this was represented in the oh so reliable Right Wing press as Chavez being declared "President for life." You weren't taken in by that where you?

As I say, there are really only two possibility here - you either didn't comprehend the issue or you did, and chose to give a dishonest representation of it. Which, honestly, was it?

meditraitor

ei.sdraob wrote: »

he jailed a judge (which ironically he appointed! among others) for carrying out a sentence which didnt agree with Chavez

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/feedarticle/8857391

still claiming its a democracy?

:rolleyes:

1.This fooker stole $27m.

2.The judge in question freed this man without the presence of a state prosecuter, this is more than irregular and if you read the story below it certainly gives the impression that corruption was involved.

3.Jailing the judge was the right thing to do'

Maybe us Irish should take a leaf out of Chavez's book.

http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/news/5024

Caracas, December 22, 2009 (venezuelanalysis.com) – Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez announced yesterday that United States authorities have detained former banker Eligio Cedeño, who recently fled the country to avoid charges over embezzling millions of dollars.
The president said that Cedeño, the former president of Canarias and Bolivar Banks, was detained in Fort Lauderdale, Miami and that Venezuela will seek his extradition.

Cedeño, is in currently in the custody of the US Immigration and Customs Enforcement, and was “detained because he left Venezuela illegally and was trying to illegally enter the United States,” Chavez said.

Chavez called on the Foreign Ministry and the Supreme Court of Justice (TSJ) to quickly prepare the necessary documents to send to the International Police (Interpol) and begin the extradition process.

Cedeño was charged in 2005 over his alleged involvement in falsely acquiring US$27 million from the State Foreign Exchange Administration Commission (Cadivi), ostensibly to import computer equipment. However, the equipment never entered the country and the funds were used for other purposes.

He was later arrested in 2007 and remanded in custody pending the outcome of his trial.

However, on 10 December Judge Maria Lourdes Afiuni ordered Cedeño’s release on probation with a control order that prohibited him from leaving the country. Shortly after the banker disappeared, turning up days later in Miami.

Judge Afiuni has since been arrested and charged with corruption, abuse of authority and criminal conspiracy for allegedly plotting with Cedeño to assist in his escape.

Venezuela’s attorney general, Luisa Ortega Diaz said that the pre-trial hearing presided over by Afiuni was “irregular” and occurred without the presence of state prosecutors.
Cedeño’s lawyer Victor Cerda, initially denied on Monday that the banker was in the custody of U.S. immigration authorities then later claimed he willingly gave himself up and said he has filed a request for “political asylum.”

U.S. ICE spokesperson Nicole Navas confirmed that Cedeño was in custody and would remain there pending “immigration procedures” which allow him to present his case to a judge.

Navas said the banker "has the opportunity to present the facts of his case and qualify", if approved by the judge, "for any immigration benefit.”

“The final decision is up to judge” who will decide whether Cedeño is eligible to qualify for immigration benefits (such as political asylum), or will be deported, Navas reiterated.

Jeffrey A. Neiman, U.S. assistant attorney for Florida, has weighed in on the issue saying “There are no criminal charges currently pending against him [Cedeño] anywhere in the District of South Florida.”

Venezuelan opposition groups claim that Cedeño is a victim of “political persecution,” and that the arrest of Afiuni violates the independence of the judicial system.

However, Chavez denied the claims and responded that the opposition is defending impunity and corruption.

Next

ei.sdraob

Exile 1798 wrote: »

This either shows your lack of honesty or your lack of comprehension of these issues.

The abolishment of term limits, requiring a change in the Venezuelan constitution, was put to a referendum. Referendums are the normal procedure for making changes to national constitutions. You understand this don't you?

You do understand the difference between a lack of term limits and a dictatorship don't you? At the time this was represented in the oh so reliable Right Wing press as Chavez being declared "President for life." You weren't taken in by that where you?

As I say, there are really only two possibility here - you either didn't comprehend the issue or you did, and chose to give a dishonest representation of it. Which, honestly, was it?

you forgot to mention that he jailed any opposition that ran against him either in elections or referendums

very democratic :rolleyes:

meditraitor

ei.sdraob wrote: »

you forgot to mention that he jailed any opposition that ran against him either in elections or referendums

very democratic :rolleyes:

Who did he jail?

ei.sdraob

meditraitor wrote: »

:rolleyes:

1.This fooker stole $27m.

2.The judge in question freed this man without the presence of a state prosecuter, this is more than irregular and if you read the story below it certainly gives the impression that corruption was involved.

3.Jailing the judge was the right thing to do'

Maybe us Irish should take a leaf out of Chavez's book.

http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/news/5024


Next

1. chavez appointed him

2. its not chavez's job to investigate criminal activities (if there was any)

3. guilty until proven innocent, because thats how it works in dictatorships

Exile 1798

ei.sdraob wrote: »

you forgot to mention that he jailed any opposition that ran against him either in elections or referendums

very democratic :rolleyes:

You didn't answer my question but given that after I highlighted the incorrectness of your statement your only answer is yet more propaganda I've come to the conclusion that you did comprehend the issue and chose to lie about it.

meditraitor

ei.sdraob wrote: »

1. chavez appointed him

2. its not chavez's job to investigate criminal activities (if there was any)

3. guilty until proven innocent, because thats how it works in dictatorships

Constitution of the Bolivarian
Republic of Venezuela
(in English translation from the original legal text)
NATIONAL CONSTITUENT ASSEMBLY

Article 255

Judges are personally liable, on such
terms as may be determined by law, for unjustified omissions, delay or errors, for
substantial failure to observe the rules of procedure, for denial of justice, for partiality
and for the criminal offenses of bribery and prevarication in office.

Clear enough to me,