Another "jump the shark moment" for Chavez

southsiderosie

meditraitor wrote: »

Again you are ignoring my point and trying to engage me in a debate that has no merit especially when you consider that this thread is pure nonsense and only being kept alive by anti chavez posters who post nothing but vitriol and schoolyard insults.

Your wrote:

Thats my point, this thread was started with the sole purpose of giving anti-chavez warriors a chance to vent their spleen with crap about Chavez, opinions rather than realities.

Any my reply was that neither side of the Chavez/Castro debate on the boards has a monopoly on starting threads based on questionable sources or non-existent information. I would consider that a direct response to your point. And now the thread is just a shouting match, and has nothing to do with the original post.

meditraitor wrote: »

Start a thread with some valid points and I will engage but continue on this route of posting nonsense(not you but you are part of the propoganda kabal) and personal insults when you dont personally know the man (me neither but I would never call him a moron because I could never proove it) and I will gladley shoot you down every time.

Mark

Would there be this level of outrage if someone called Bush a moron? And I have seen much worse written about the current Irish government. If we had to know political leaders personally, then there would be no politics thread on the boards! No world leader is above reproach, and that includes Chavez, Castro, and for that matter Obama.

I have never called Hugo Chavez a moron. He may act foolish, but he is no fool. He, like his mentor Fidel Castro, knows that there is a ready audience that laps up everything he has to say as long as it is "revolutionary" or anti-American.

Finally, as for being part of a "propaganda kabal"...:rolleyes: Just because someone disagrees with the Chavez regime, doesn't mean it is propaganda. I've made my opinions on Chavez - and the Venezuelan right - quite clear, and I have consistently provided backup for my posts, from liberal/conservative and English/Spanish media - and still been attacked for it. Apparently, no media source is legitimate if they disagree with the regime - even a newspaper that faces constant criticism for almost unequivocally supporting a socialist government (it was a scandal when El Pais ran a huge critique of the PSOE in Spain). Just as I do not think Fox News is a credible source for critical analysis of the Republican Party, I don't think a news source that has open ties to the regime and is explicit about their "solidarity" with Bolivarianism is a credible source for an analysis of said regime. Why waste my ****ing time trying to make a reasonable argument when no matter what you say, Chavez supporters will dismiss the source, the argument, or the evidence?

Like I said before, you don't have to like capitalism to dislike authoritarianism. There are plenty of other countries in the region - most notably Chile and Brazil - whose leaders managed to pass socially progressive legislation and channeled revenues from natural resources to benefit society at large, and who did so without dismantling the private sector, curtailing civil liberties, shutting down independent media, or fighting with their neighbors. I'll leave it at that, especially since this thread has spiraled completely out of control. It would be nice to have a reasoned debate about Latin American politics, but I think that may be impossible here.

Exile 1798

Southside,

The problem in Latin America is that whenever a Democratic Left government is elected they face an unrelenting attack from the American government and the international "anti-reds" jump in to join in the fun.

Criticisms are levelled without a thought for context or the reality of the situation. This thread, appropriately based on a completely made up set of quotes, has seen numerous people attack Chavez for his rhetoric towards America. Do you forget that President Chavez was once ousted in a coup, within a few hours the US government recognised the illegitimate, anti-democratic coup leaders as the government of Venezuela? I'd be pretty pissed and a little paranoid too, wouldn't you?

There's a lot of cut and thrust in Venezuelan politics. How would any small democracy fair if they had a foreign super power actively supporting opposition groups, supporting military coups, promoting propaganda efforts? It's not a trivial matter for these people. The democratically elected President of Chile was murdered with the connivance of the CIA, the democratically elected President of Honduras was ousted by the military just last year.

The message of the international Right is that no election, no referendum, no constitutional amendment is legitimate if what they regard as their allies don't win.

The basic message of the Left is not "everything Chavez does is great" but rather "Hands off Venezuela." If you actually cared about democracy as you claim then this would be your position too.

ei.sdraob

Exile 1798 wrote: »

Southside,

The problem in Latin America is that whenever a Democratic Left government is elected they face an unrelenting attack from the American government and the international "anti-reds" jump in to join in the fun.

Criticisms are levelled without a thought for context or the reality of the situation. This thread, appropriately based on a completely made up set of quotes, has seen numerous people attack Chavez for his rhetoric towards America. Do you forget that President Chavez was once ousted in a coup, within a few hours the US government recognised the illegitimate, anti-democratic coup leaders as the government of Venezuela? I'd be pretty pissed and a little paranoid too, wouldn't you?

There's a lot of cut and thrust in Venezuelan politics. How would any small democracy fair if they had a foreign super power actively supporting opposition groups, supporting military coups, promoting propaganda efforts? It's not a trivial matter for these people. The democratically elected President of Chile was murdered with the connivance of the CIA, the democratically elected President of Honduras was ousted by the military just last year.

The message of the international Right is that no election, no referendum, no constitutional amendment is legitimate if what they regard as their allies don't win.

The basic message of the Left is not "everything Chavez does is great" but rather "Hands off Venezuela." If you actually cared about democracy as you claim then this would be your position too.

seems you completely missed the point southsiderosie made


dont be so (politically) 1 dimensional

the problem is not left or right but the authoritarian <----> liberal axis, the much hated around here US is left leaning nowadays and Obama trying to introduce free healtcare etc, Sweden is also left leaning but unlike Cuba, Venezuela and China they are not way down on the authoritarian axis and its the liberalism and freedom for citizens and separation of wings of government that can be attributed to their success

i personally dont care much for left or right as my political compass is very firmly lodged in the center, as history has shown whether a country is run by right wing or left wing nutcases once the move down the authoritarian scale they start to look remarkably the same

its authoritarianism (dictatorship and dismantling of rights) thats the problem, and yes thats what Bush was doing as well, and for the nth time in this thread 2 wrongs dont make a right and is not an excuse for dismantling a democratic system

venezuala does not have an independent judicial wing of government anymore as thats controlled and run by el presidento, to quote Chavez himself

the separation of powers weakens the state.

ill put it to yee this way, if Cowen had the power to add whatever judges he wanted (who would all be FF cronies) and remove any he didnt like, and interfere in the judgement of judges who are meant to be independent, what would you call Cowen? how would you like then if these judges are used to convict and jail opposition parties (SF, FG and Lab)? does that put things into perspective


i already provided evidence and links to all of these events and im not going thru whole lot again
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=63911963&postcount=40
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=63922615&postcount=62

all of the points made by me (and backed up by references) and others were avoided

meditraitor

@ Southside rosie ,you should read the following post...

Exile 1798 wrote: »

Southside,

The problem in Latin America is that whenever a Democratic Left government is elected they face an unrelenting attack from the American government and the international "anti-reds" jump in to join in the fun.

Criticisms are levelled without a thought for context or the reality of the situation. This thread, appropriately based on a completely made up set of quotes, has seen numerous people attack Chavez for his rhetoric towards America. Do you forget that President Chavez was once ousted in a coup, within a few hours the US government recognised the illegitimate, anti-democratic coup leaders as the government of Venezuela? I'd be pretty pissed and a little paranoid too, wouldn't you?

There's a lot of cut and thrust in Venezuelan politics. How would any small democracy fair if they had a foreign super power actively supporting opposition groups, supporting military coups, promoting propaganda efforts? It's not a trivial matter for these people. The democratically elected President of Chile was murdered with the connivance of the CIA, the democratically elected President of Honduras was ousted by the military just last year.

The message of the international Right is that no election, no referendum, no constitutional amendment is legitimate if what they regard as their allies don't win.

The basic message of the Left is not "everything Chavez does is great" but rather "Hands off Venezuela." If you actually cared about democracy as you claim then this would be your position too.

+1
@southside rosie
You are still mistaking opinions for facts and still dismissing/ignoring my request for a debate on the merits of your opinions....

By all means start a thread and post about injustices in the Venesuelan socialist agenda but please post facts and opinions based on knowledge rather than ignorant smeer campaign rhetoric with no basis in reality

If you want a debate on
Quote:
the attacks on independent media in Venezuela or labor market dualism and rising inequality in Cuba

then by all means start a thread but as usual the anti chavez camp use sensationism and lies to continue the campaign their US based media slavemasters have set them.

Start a thread with some valid points and I will engage

and finally the reason for this shouting match

The problem with these Nero Delusions is they never have any real proof and when they get called out on it they just disappear of the thread for a couple of days till they see another media induced oppertunity(basless fact) to condemn.

I posted on this thread with the sole purpose of challenging the original post, which was pure nonsense and just gave the anti chavez cabal an opportunity to spout their unfounded half truths.

If you are willing then start another thread based on your beliefs that the venesuelan goverment/Hugo Chavez are in some way shape or form doing something morally or ethically wrong in a humanistic sense than fire ahead.... I would relish that debate,

Scofflaw

Can we have less of the accusations of lying, please. Unless you can prove that a poster has lied, it's simply an accusation and an insult.

moderately,
Scofflaw