ROG and Jonny Sexton for the Six Nations.

twinytwo

RoverJames wrote: »

Ronan's kicking could turn to muck at any time I reckon.

as could anyones so what your point exactly?

thehighground

TheGod wrote: »

He had 3 kicks. He landed one, one hit the post and the other was wide.
Essentially he missed one more kick than O'Gara did with less opportunities up his statistics. Not really an argument there.

But missing the kick means Leinster lost the game.

No offence but quoting the statistics is really petty. I could quite easily post the statistical difference over the season of which Sexton is miles ahead but I won't.

I doubt if Sexton is miles ahead - O'Gara has been getting 90% on all his games recently. You probably don't realise it, but his record against Australia in the autumn was 100%.

Actually it does. If a player can get run over by a 14 stone outhalf it essentially means that any player on the pitch bar perhaps the scrumhalf is capable of running through the 10 channel. Sexton got run over by a 17stone flanker yet still managed to slow him enough to prevent him from breaking through the 10 channel. Now, seeing as Sexton has had no problem in the past defensively I would attribute this to a minor blip.
For O'Gara on the otherhand you can't argue that it is not a regular occurance.

I've seen a smallish centre throw Sexton around like a rag doll.

They might all attack O'Gara's channel, but that makes them very predictable and easy to defend. Its like with Brian O'Driscoll - watching him gives others space.

PhatPiggins

Peter B wrote: »

This is one thing that annoys me about Rog. He gets annoyed at not being automatic first choice for his position. I remember he played some of his best rugby to date when he was getting swapped regularly with Humphries. Also it is obvious he has raised his performance when Sexton came onto the international scene.

QUOTE]

So what he thought he was playing the best rugby and thought he should be first choice, he was probably right. I have no problem with Kidney rotating Sexton and O Gara but EOS was chopping and changing and not letting either player finish a match which served no purpose imo. O Gara's a tool but at least he speaks his mind.

As you say the competition has done him the power of good.

wixfjord

Come on lads dont let this go the way it looks its goin.

thehighground, is there any need to agrue against everything negative that is said against O Gara and positive thats said about Sexton, surely it couldnt all be true, or there would be no competition :P

Everyone should try put provincial stuff behind them for the 6N and look at whats best for Ireland.

I personally would start O Gara, since I think hes been showing good form when Johnny was injured, and since form is about even, and O Gara has more experience and probably fitness atm, he should start against Italy. I wouldnt be of the opinion to start Sexton against Italy simply to give him experience and get games under his belt, weve seen what he can do for Leinster and against the World Champions. Either he should start of merit or not at all, but not simply to give him game time.

TheGod

thehighground wrote: »

But missing the kick means Leinster lost the game.

And getting the drop goal mean't they didn't lose. Leinster didn't win that game because they tried to contain rather than win. Sexton missing 2 kicks cannot be made the scapegoat.

I doubt if Sexton is miles ahead - O'Gara has been getting 90% on all his games recently. You probably don't realise it, but his record against Australia in the autumn was 100%.

You mean those 3 kicks all of which were under the posts against Australia?
O'Gara had 20-25% success rate for a lot of games when Sexton had 90%. Sexton landed 11 kicks in a row for his international career.

I've seen a smallish centre throw Sexton around like a rag doll.

Really when? The only time i've seen Sexton been thrown around by a centre was when Mafi threw him around in an off the ball inciddent but I persume you wouldn't laughably mean that inciddent so what inciddent are you talking about where Sexton was brushed aside or was man handled into spilling possession?

They might all attack O'Gara's channel, but that makes them very predictable and easy to defend. Its like with Brian O'Driscoll - watching him gives others space.

On the contray. It makes the job harder for our backrow limiting it's effictiveness.

TheGod

Riskymove wrote: »

hmmm....

you remind me of someone!

Yes I'm SpAcEd OuT, I couldn't retrieve my password, problem?

Riskymove

TheGod wrote: »

Riskymove wrote: »

Yes I'm SpAcEd OuT, I couldn't retrieve my password, problem?

no...that's clarified that, thanks!

thehighground

wixfjord wrote: »

Come on lads dont let this go the way it looks its goin.

thehighground, is there any need to agrue against everything negative that is said against O Gara and positive thats said about Sexton, surely it couldnt all be true, or there would be no competition :P

Everyone should try put provincial stuff behind them for the 6N and look at whats best for Ireland.

I'm well aware of O'Gara's negatives and I don't have a problem with them being aired. But opinion put forward as fact (i.e., kicking percentages etc), I will point out if they are inaccurate. I will also debate as to how much of a liability O'Gara's defence is.

As for Sexton - if you look elsewhere I have posted he should start against Italy & England (since he got a feel for Twickenham on Sat) because he needs the experience.

TheGod

thehighground wrote: »

I'm well aware of O'Gara's negatives and I don't have a problem with them being aired. But opinion put forward as fact (i.e., kicking percentages etc), I will point out if they are inaccurate.

Come on thehighground, slating Sexton's kicking percentage in one game as being 33% when he had 3 kicks and then praising O'Gara's 100% kicking percentage against Australia when he had 3 kicks all of which were directly under the posts is being completely illogical and smacks of somone trying to make excuses.

twinytwo

twinytwo wrote: »

as could anyones so what your point exactly?

My point is I think he is more likely not to perform to his past best. We shall have to wait and see.

thehighground

TheGod wrote: »

Come on thehighground, slating Sexton's kicking percentage in one game as being 33% when he had 3 kicks and then praising O'Gara's 100% kicking percentage against Australia when he had 3 kicks all of which were directly under the posts is being completely illogical and smacks of somone trying to make excuses.

Come on yourself - you were the one who brought up Sexton's superior kicking etc. I've made the point that most centres and backrowers will upend both O'Gara & Sexton if running at them.

Now, I'm leaving this thread at that.

TheGod

thehighground wrote: »

Come on yourself - you were the one who brought up Sexton's superior kicking etc. I've made the point that most centres and backrowers will upend both O'Gara & Sexton if running at them.

Now, I'm leaving this thread at that.

Thats fine by me but Sexton's kicking percentages are above O'Garas. One only needs to look to the start of the season where Sexton was getting 90-100% success rates with O'Gara on as low as 20-25% for a lot of games.

Also from 50+ games I have seen Sexton play I have never once seen a centre upend him and only once seen a backrower get the better of him (Armitage, this weekend) It seems you have completely jumped on this one inciddent to try make the argument that O'Gara and Sexton are now equal in regards defense which is, no offence, absolutely insane.

Riskymove

TheGod wrote: »

One only needs to look to the start of the season where Sexton was getting 90-100% success rates with O'Gara on as low as 20-25% for a lot of games.

sigh...I dont know why I do this but........can you provide a source/evidence for this?

thehighground

TheGod wrote: »

Thats fine by me but Sexton's kicking percentages are above O'Garas. One only needs to look to the start of the season where Sexton was getting 90-100% success rates with O'Gara on as low as 20-25% for a lot of games.

Also from 50+ games I have seen Sexton play I have never once seen a centre upend him and only once seen a backrower get the better of him (Armitage, this weekend) It seems you have completely jumped on this one inciddent to try make the argument that O'Gara and Sexton are now equal in regards defense which is, no offence, absolutely insane.

Most of Sexton's experience is in the Magners where teams tend to be less physical so he really hasn't been tested that much. We'll see how it works out.

O'Gara's bad kicking was in the Magners where he changed his technique to try and get greater distance (useful to be able to do when a vital kick is needed to win a game a la Stephen Jones in the GS decider).

By the way - as far as I know, O'Gara's is top points scorer for the recent knockout stages of the Heineken Cup - so his kicking really isn't much of a worry now.

TheGod

Riskymove wrote: »

sigh...I dont know why I do this but........can you provide a source/evidence for this?

Leinster v Scarletts - Sexton 100%
Leinster v Dragons - Sexton 100%
Leinster v Ospreys - Sexton 80%
Leinster v Munster - Sexton 100%

Munster v Dragons - O'Gara 50%
Munster v Leinster - O'Gara 0%
Munster v Edinburugh - O'Gara 25%
Munster v Ulster - O'Gara 50%
Munster v Ospreys - O'Gara 33%
Munster v Connacht - O'Gara 100%



All from matchtracker on magnersleague site.

O'Gara has actually missed more kicks than hes gotten this season...

TheGod

thehighground wrote: »

Most of Sexton's experience is in the Magners where teams tend to be less physical so he really hasn't been tested that much. We'll see how it works out.

Weren't you making that very same argument when arguing against Sexton starting against South Africa?

By the way - as far as I know, O'Gara's is top points scorer for the recent knockout stages of the Heineken Cup - so his kicking really isn't much of a worry now.

He has 3 more points than Sexton this season despite playing 3 more games including a try romp against Treviso.....

Riskymove

TheGod wrote: »

All from matchtracker on magnersleague site.

have you a link to this?

PhatPiggins

I think for the point of clarity in this utterly pointless arguement you should compare the averages of the two players over the course of their careers.

WeleaseWoderick

I'd personally start Sexton against Italy but would certainly not be as opposed to ROG getting picked as I was for the Autumn Internationals. Tis good to see O'Gara hitting form again as it gives us real options now in the position for the first time in nearly 5 years.

TheGod

Riskymove wrote: »

have you a link to this?

http://www.magnersleague.com/matchcentre/fixtures_list.php

Click on whatever game you want.

Riskymove

TheGod wrote: »

http://www.magnersleague.com/matchcentre/fixtures_list.php

Click on whatever game you want.

i still dont see any stats like those you posted, where are they available?

PhatPiggins

Riskymove wrote: »

i still dont see any stats like those you posted, where are they available?

I presume he means the match tracker tab on the top of each game report. It does'nt appear to make note of missed kicks though

anonymous_joe

PhatPiggins wrote: »

I think for the point of clarity in this utterly pointless arguement you should compare the averages of the two players over the course of their careers.

Or avoid going down that route.

O'Gara's been the worse player this season by a mile. However, he now seems to be over that collapse in form.

So we're back to square one. Glad I'm not the one who has to choose between them.

wixfjord

anonymous_joe wrote: »

Or avoid going down that route.

O'Gara's been the worse player this season by a mile. However, he now seems to be over that collapse in form.

So we're back to square one. Glad I'm not the one who has to choose between them.

Bit of common sense is hard to argue with.

Riskymove

wixfjord wrote: »

Bit of common sense is hard to argue with.

but many try:pac:

thehighground

TheGod wrote: »

Weren't you making that very same argument when arguing against Sexton starting against South Africa?

Nope, I didn't. I did argue that it was a big ask of him to make his debut against Australia.

profitius

Can't believe theres another ROG vs Sexton thread. :rolleyes:

toomevara

profitius wrote: »

Can't believe theres another ROG vs Sexton thread. :rolleyes:

Yep, its getting like a Beckett play, god help us all.

thehighground

anonymous_joe wrote: »

O'Gara's been the worse player this season by a mile. However, he now seems to be over that collapse in form.

If basing it on kicking percentages and ignoring that he used the Magners League to develop the distance, one would have to agree with that statement. His game was very good otherwise (he was even making all his tackles!)

Heineken Cup form

Sexton:
LI - 75% (3 from 4) 1 DG Missed 2 DGs.
Brive - 100% (8 from 8) (2 missed DGs).
Scarlets x 2 - injured.
Brive - 60% (3 from 5)
LI - 33% (1 from 3) 1 DG

15/20

O'Gara
NH - 66.7% (6 from 9)
Treviso - 37.5 (3 from 8)
Perp - 77.8% (7 from 9)
Perp - 100% (7 from 7)
Treviso - 75% (6 from 8)
NH - 80% (4 from 5)

I didn't account for DGs for O'Gara because Warwick would have had a few attempts as well for Munster.

32/44 (taking account that Warwick took one when O'Gara was yellow carded).

Notice when Munster are playing difficult games, he produces the goods. Kicking percentages drop when playing Treviso because obviously Munster were not depending on his kicks to win the game.

Secondly, from the amount of kicks that O'Gara takes - nearly double as you need to take into account Sexton was injured for two games) - he obviously has a go from nearly anywhere (he attempted a 50M one against Northampton).

TheGod

PhatPiggins wrote: »

I presume he means the match tracker tab on the top of each game report. It does'nt appear to make note of missed kicks though

If you read the match reports it mentions all penalty and conversion attempts.

TheGod

thehighground wrote: »

If basing it on kicking percentages and ignoring that he used the Magners League to develop the distance, one would have to agree with that statement. His game was very good otherwise (he was even making all his tackles!)

Heineken Cup form

Sexton:
LI - 75% (3 from 4) 1 DG Missed 2 DGs.
Brive - 100% (8 from 8) (2 missed DGs).
Scarlets x 2 - injured.
Brive - 60% (3 from 5)
LI - 33% (1 from 3) 1 DG

15/20

O'Gara
NH - 66.7% (6 from 9)
Treviso - 37.5 (3 from 8)
Perp - 77.8% (7 from 9)
Perp - 100% (7 from 7)
Treviso - 75% (6 from 8)
NH - 80% (4 from 5)

I didn't account for DGs for O'Gara because Warwick would have had a few attempts as well for Munster.

32/44 (taking account that Warwick took one when O'Gara was yellow carded).

Notice when Munster are playing difficult games, he produces the goods. Kicking percentages drop when playing Treviso because obviously Munster were not depending on his kicks to win the game.

Secondly, from the amount of kicks that O'Gara takes - nearly double as you need to take into account Sexton was injured for two games) - he obviously has a go from nearly anywhere (he attempted a 50M one against Northampton) .

So essentially, Sexton has 15/20 or an average of 75% kicking in the HC whilst O'Gara has 32/44 or an average of 72%

So Sexton is ahead of O'Gara by miles in the ML and still ahead of O'Gara in HC.

O'Gara has taken more than double the amount of kicks that Sexton has and has missed more than double the amount of kicks Sexton has. Also the more kicks you take the better your percentage will look.
i.e 1/3 will get you 33% whilst 3/6 will get you 50% so the fact that O'Gara has taken double the amount of kicks yet is still behind Sexton is very telling.

wixfjord

toomevara wrote: »

Yep, its getting like a Beckett play, god help us all.

In fairness it was going grand until two or three posters dragges into the mire (again). Its up to ye mods to stop this happening, other more balanced posters have no control over this, and if they do try to stop can be accused of abuse or back seat modding.


On another note, when is this new charter arriving??

Podge_irl

Well this is tedious.

Analysing ROG's kicking stats from the start of the season is completely pointless. Everyone knows he was having a poor season up until the Perpignan game. He has somewhat recovered from that, rendering his early season performances irrelevant.

Sexton was clearly the better fly half back in November. It's much of a muchness now, but Sexton is younger and has more potential so I'd rather he started but it wouldn't be the end of the world if ROG did.

potsy11

Sexton is a better player. I dont have the stats but i'd say that Sexton has created more tries for Leinster that O'Gara has for Munster.

Its great that we have 2 amazing 10s to choose from. I just think Sexton offers something more than O'gara.

On another note and a little off topic I reckon France are our only competiton for the 6 nations. IF we defeat them in France its on like Donkey Kong

Riskymove

Podge_irl wrote: »

Well this is tedious.

indeed

in any event statistics dont show the whole story as there is no indication of things like conditions or Position/difficulty of kick

Also the more kicks you take the better your percentage will look

err...not necessarily

indeed you can get 100% by having just one kick which would statistically be better than getting 4 out of 5 or whatever

Podge_irl

potsy11 wrote: »

Sexton is a better player. I dont have the stats but i'd say that Sexton has created more tries for Leinster that O'Gara has for Munster.

It depends on what you mean by created, but I doubt it. Leinster and Munster scored he same number of tries in the HEC and Munster generally run far more of their backline moves through the 10 channel (more out of necessity than anything else) and would certainly have fewer broken field tries. But then you could say that Sexton has more of an impact when he's involved but no stats will really tell you that.

I think Sexton is actually quite similar to a young ROG in his playing, especially his passing, but with that bit more speed and physicality which gives him an edge. His best asset is his flat pass as he runs to the line - it really helps put his outside backs perfectly into space. It's something ROG used to do a bit more I think, but teams soon figured out he was never going to run it.

TheGod

Riskymove wrote: »

indeed you can get 100% by having just one kick which would statistically be better than getting 4 out of 5 or whatever

I'm referring to when looking at the overall picture

i.e

10/30 kicks - missed only 20 kicks but 33%
15/40 kicks - missed 25 kicks but 37.5%

Podge_irl

Oh Good God, stop with the kicking stats please

Riskymove

:pac:

TheGod wrote: »

I'm referring to when looking at the overall picture

i.e

10/30 kicks - missed only 20 kicks but 33%
15/40 kicks - missed 25 kicks but 37.5%

my brain is bleeding at this stage...enough...enough

TheGod

Riskymove wrote: »

:pac:

my brain is bleeding at this stage...enough...enough

In fairness out of my 29 posts thus far under this account I have only referred to kicking stats for 10% of them. So hardly OTT.

toomevara

wixfjord wrote: »

In fairness it was going grand until two or three posters dragges into the mire (again). Its up to ye mods to stop this happening, other more balanced posters have no control over this, and if they do try to stop can be accused of abuse or back seat modding.


On another note, when is this new charter arriving??

Normally wouldn't discuss this type of thing on thread, but just this once...

I see where you're coming from, but in our defence, these threads are actually quite difficult to mod, because alas, endless, tedious, pointless, rehashed discussion of the '10 debate' is not against the charter. I can't infract someone for making the same point they've made on endless previous threads discussing the same topic as long as they aren't abusive/ overtly tribal when they do so.

Certain posters have agendas, bias, loyalties in this sphere and these will never change regardless of debate or discussion. It's almost like a boil that needs lancing...one of these threads flares up every 2-3 weeks, after a round of the ML/HEC. There's then a discussion similar to the one we've had countless times before and a number of predictable things will then happen in almost as metronomic a fashion as a Dan Carter conversion;

Most sane posters give the thread a wide berth.

A few of the usual suspects will get warned/banned/infracted after becoming predictably hot under the collar, just like they have countless times before.

The thread will, inevitably, be locked.

We mods get a load of abusive/snide PM's accusing us of being biased against one or the other, (usually, both,lol, tribes), while also being accused of behaving like jackbooted rugby fascisti trying to block free speech/genuine debate.

A help desk thread by one or more aggrieved parties will follow berating us for the above.

So you'll have to excuse me if I don't jump for joy when I see that there's been yet another outbreak of ROGSEXN51 virus. Am I complaining? no...love the forum and mod it because most folk on here are of the same opinion as me i.e they want to discuss the game of rugby with like minded souls in a semi-civilised environment. Just wanted to give you a little perspective on the difficulty these threads present for us as mods.

As for the new charter, should be with us next week.

danthefan

Do the board a favour and lock it now I reckon.

TheGod

In fairness this isn't the same rehashed arguments.

We're discussing kicking percentages this season of which Sexton is far ahead of O'Gara in the ML and ahead of O'Gara in the HC. Unlike before also Sexton now has proven himself internationally against the world champions no less.

I'll end on this note

Old arguments against Sexton

(1)Hasn't played enough
- Has now played 60+ games for Leinster and Ireland

(2)He cant kick
- Has over 90% kick rate this season in ML

(3)He'll struggle to step up to international level
- MOTM against Fiji and an excellent performance against the World Champions

Whats the excuse this time for not starting him?

Keeping in mind that he is
(1) Younger than O'Gara
(2) Playing better than O'Gara
(3) Kicking better than O'Gara
(4) Needs more international experience
(5) Has proven he is more than able for international level
(6) Is a regular for the European Champions, playing week in week out.

The poll results speak for themselves

thehighground

TheGod wrote: »

In fairness this isn't the same rehashed arguments.

We're discussing kicking percentages this season of which Sexton is far ahead of O'Gara in the ML and ahead of O'Gara in the HC. Unlike before also Sexton now has proven himself internationally against the world champions no less.

I'll end on this note

Old arguments against Sexton

Just because they are now old, doesn't mean they were not valid then. You are the one who started producing stats of the ML, completely ignoring the much easier stats to attain of the Heineken Cup because O'Gara's kicking stats are top drawer in that competition.

(1)Hasn't played enough
- Has now played 60+ games for Leinster and Ireland

You should contact Leinster rugby about this - they have him as having 51 Leinster caps, 17 of which were as a sub.

(2)He cant kick
- Has over 90% kick rate this season in ML.

Great news. As pointed out - an old argument. This time last year he couldn't kick.

(3)He'll struggle to step up to international level
- MOTM against Fiji and an excellent performance against the World Champions.

Never heard anyone saying he would struggle. Most people would have said it would be a challenge for him at most.

Whats the excuse this time for not starting him?

Keeping in mind that he is
(1) Younger than O'Gara
(2) Playing better than O'Gara
(3) Kicking better than O'Gara
(4) Needs more international experience
(5) Has proven he is more than able for international level
(6) Is a regular for the European Champions, playing week in week out.

Has any poster here said he shouldn't start? (note I said I'd start him against Italy to save you looking).

gent9662

ROG has the undoubted experience, when the pressure is on he's the man for the job.

TheGod

thehighground wrote: »

You should contact Leinster rugby about this - they have him as having 51 Leinster caps, 17 of which were as a sub.

Why? I said Leinster AND Ireland

Great news. As pointed out - an old argument. This time last year he couldn't kick.

Probably had something to do with Contepomi taking the kicks....

Never heard anyone saying he would struggle. Most people would have said it would be a challenge for him at most.

A lot of posters (including your good self) said he shouldn't start in the AIs against Aus and South Africa because he would struggle.

thehighground

TheGod wrote: »

Probably had something to do with Contepomi taking the kicks....

And why was Contepomi taking the kicks if Sexton was the OH

A lot of posters (including your good self) said he shouldn't start in the AIs against Aus and South Africa because he would struggle.

I said I wouldn't start him against Australia as it would be his first cap, and from what I understand, getting your first cap can be stressful. It looks like that he how Kidney looked at it.

I never at any stage said he would struggle.

TheGod

thehighground wrote: »

completely ignoring the much easier stats to attain of the Heineken Cup because O'Gara's kicking stats are top drawer in that competition.

Sexton has a better kicking percentage in the HC as well by the way.

danthefan

thehighground wrote: »

And why was Contepomi taking the kicks if Sexton was the OH .

What? Does the OH have to be the kicker?