Slane by-pass and the Archaeology beneth

Bog Butter

thegreenspirit wrote: »

The Slane Bypass.
The M3 Motorway is a key part of the plan to upgrade the overall roads network for the country. It will significantly improve road transport connections between the North West and the East of the country. The transport corridor that links the North West, Cavan and North Meath with Dublin City is one of the busiest in the country. The existing road is struggling to cope with the hugely increased volumes brought about by the population explosion in towns such as Dunshaughlin, Navan and Kells, as well as other areas of County Meath. When complete the M3 will enable motorists to by-pass those towns.
From the M3 website http://www.m3motorway.ie

To by- pass towns in North Meath, one reason given by those who planned and built the M3 and the justification for the environmental damage, huge expense and heritage carnage that it cost. Similar reasons were given for the construction of the nearby M1.
Slane is in north Meath and sits between both of these motorways, closer I think than any town to two motorways anywhere on our planet. Yet they now want to build another road and when that one is finished then what? Build another?
Would it not be better to use the money to repair the ones falling apart all over Meath?
The other reason given for the M3 construction ; to facilitate the population explosion.
It has never failed to baffle me why the people of Ireland stayed so quiet about what was in fact an invasion.
Between 2000 and 2008 Ireland experience population growth that was unprecedented in any country in European history. It was about 75% more per year than experienced by England, in relation to size and population, (Mentioned in the Dail, 28/02/08).
This for a country which never had an empire, a history of colonization or invasion.
In research published on December 23rd 2009, the Central Statistics Office (CSO) shows that 967,800 PPSNs were issued to foreigners between 2002 and 2008; as reported in the Irish Times December 24th 2009.
This amounted to one in four of our native population. It did not include the dependents of the workers or their children or Asylum seekers. This explosion led to the estates, the roads and eventually to the economic mire we are now in. Without that explosion it could not have happened. It baffles me even more that people connected to environmentalism, heritage and sustainability movements stayed as quiet as those who did not care a hoot about anything. They still do.
Where does this need to destroy ourselves come from? Do we hate ourselves and so hate our past and the sites connected to it? Do we believe that the present situation we find ourselves in is normal, that litter, unemployment, a destroyed environment, a society falling apart and a failed economy is our natural state?
The politics of hubris that led to this; the politics of Fianna Fail pushes the Slane bypass too. Staying quiet about it, or agreeing to it, or looking away from it is suicidal madness.

Lets not go into a rant. Why must you introduce nonsense about hating ourselves, Asylum seekers, other E.U citizens and litter? We are not destroying ourselves; we are doing the opposite. This is not about building a road for road's sake. Neither is about facilitating the people of Slane in terms of getting to Dublin. It's about stopping heavy volumes of traffic going through Slane. I think the Slane Bridge Action Committee explain it best:

A warning shot has been fired across the bows of protesters against the proposed Slane bypass this week that delays to the project could result in even more loss of life.
John Ryle of the Slane Bridge Action Committee asked if environmental and heritage protesters would be able to live with themselves if there was another tragedy in the village if the project was delayed. "The primary reason for the bypass is to end the carnage in Slane. It is a matter of life and death," he said.

We were not invaded by immigrants. In any case, the vast majority of people who came here were entitled to do so; more luck to them.
There is a long history of social change in Ireland and the empire we left it in 1949 played a significant role in that change. The legacy left behind by the empire is seen in the language we speak, our road network, our rail network, our cities and towns, our legal system, past emigration, the Famine, the Plantations and paramilitary activity (and all its consequences).

thegreenspirit

The mixing up of fact and what I wrote can only be intentional.
I have said that 22 death in thirty years is unfortunately normal and if we except a car culture then we have a choice; either we accept that or we destroy our country by building more roads which will clog up and then we build more roads.. this is madness. All roads in thirty years will show a similar toll.
On immigration I said simply that the explosion of population as mentioned in all the planning appeals in favor of the M3 was similar madness.
This was not a thinly veiled attack on immigration, I say clearly that immigration in the present day, knowing what we know about our disappearing water supply, climate change and jobs disappearing to Asia is madness.
The model of bigger is better, that more is better, has left us with less, less less.
Our environment, health care and wage structures have fallen to it, it has came at a terrible cost to everyone, mostly the poor, and with little or no long term benefits to anyone.
More roads will not or did not help us. They will bring chaos sooner or later.
If you disagree and choose hubris then go ahead and ruin your own land, one day reality will force itself on you and people like you.
Restraint in all things is the prerequisite of success and stability. Is this beyond understanding?

Riamfada

Greenspirit,

Please dont change the standard font, size and colour it makes your posts very difficult to read.

Thanks

Slane Resident

The Green Man, you repeatedly state that "22 deaths in 30 years is normal". I'm not going to even give in to my natural emotional response on that one, but what I will say is this - you complain about misrepresentation but I would say that you are not listening to any argument.

So to repeat: Slane is in the top 1% of the roads in the country.

Not normal. Top 1%. 200 metres of road; 22 deaths. Worse than 99% of the rest of the roads in the country. So no, all roads in the past 30 years won't show a similar toll. 1% of all roads in the past 30 years will show a similar toll.

Immigration has nothing to do with Slane. A desire for reduced commuting times has nothing to do with Slane (and it's a totally different situation from the M3). Health care has nothing to do with Slane (although I note on another forum you're basically saying that kids with arthritis had their funding cut, and where were all the road protestors then? I don't understand the logic of that argument, but maybe that's just me.). Jobs disappearing to Asia has nothing to do with Slane.

All the people of Slane are interested in is getting their kids to school (by bus, by car, by foot or by bike) without them being killed. Getting to work in one piece. Getting out of the village without having a runaway lorry plough through your car.

How do you get around, The Green Spirit?

thegreenspirit

You lot have tried to guilt trip people about road deaths but when it is pointed out to you that spending hundreds of millions on more roads at a time when childern suffer from collapsing health care budgets, when people have their dole and pensions cut the arguments become "ridiculous".
You purposely misquote me. I have asked that if the Slane Bypass is just about saving lives then where were you all when Tara and its ancient complex was bulldozed?
That was about naked destruction and you lot all stood back then too and applauded.
The so called Archeologists among you should hide in shame.
On a site http://thetarajournal.webs.com/ are photos of what happenned at Tara, will you hide and deny what is to happen at Slane too?
I use public transport as all people should, who know the problems that carbon release is about to cause.
It just beggars beliefe that in the state our country is in we have money to build ever more roads and that in a nut shell that is what is both ridiculous and perverse.
That is the argument that you lot run from.
We can get by without this road, in Europe they do because they care. It is only here that people hears about lorries that cannot stop.
Will our childern get by in the present and future conditions? Will they have the schooling and care they deserves, have they a future is a corroupt and bust land or is the mania for building more roads more important than this?
All my arguments are connected to that; what we have been doing, what we can afford, what is sustainable.
I point out what the hubris of Fianna Fail has cost us and what we should be doing to correct this. You lot just snort about deaths and roads.
Wake up to reality

Slane Resident

Okay, in order to avoid being accused of misquoting you, I'm going to take your points one by one as follows:

1. You lot have tried to guilt trip people about road deaths but when it is pointed out to you that spending hundreds of millions on more roads at a time when childern suffer from collapsing health care budgets, when people have their dole and pensions cut the arguments become "ridiculous".

Firstly, who is "you lot"?
Secondly, "trying to guilt trip people about road deaths"? Anyone with half a brain would automatically be concerned about road deaths. I'm not trying to guilt trip anyone. I'm just trying to clarify what the issue, as I see it, is - not jobs in Asia, not immigration, not tailbacks, not commuting distances, not traffic jams. Deaths and injuries. Top 1% of most dangerous roads in the country - I note you haven't responded to that.

2. You purposely misquote me. I have asked that if the Slane Bypass is just about saving lives then where were you all when Tara and its ancient complex was bulldozed?

Sorry, but that just doesn't make sense. What loss of life at Tara? And when it was it bulldozed? I was up there last week and it seemed okay then ...

3. That was about naked destruction and you lot all stood back then too and applauded.

"You lot" again. And I presume you have photos of me and the rest of "us" applauding? Oh no, you don't actually know who I am. Oh, unless you are talking about us Slane residents. Yeah, we threw a party down in Boyles, said great, there's some naked destruction going on, three cheers. Cop on!

4. The so called Archeologists among you should hide in shame.
On a site http://thetarajournal.webs.com/ are photos of what happenned at Tara, will you hide and deny what is to happen at Slane too?

I'm not an archaeologist so I'll leave that for someone else to answer.

As Tara has nothing to do with Slane, I'm not going to get into it. Just wondering though - do you also have photos of the damage done by tunnelling protestors?

5. I use public transport as all people should, who know the problems that carbon release is about to cause.

What sort of public transport? Rail or road? Just that you seem so anti-road under any circumstances.

I walk my kids to school (watching out for runaway lorries the whole way). So sorry to ruin your carbon release (tangential) argument.

6. It just beggars beliefe that in the state our country is in we have money to build ever more roads and that in a nut shell that is what is both ridiculous and perverse.

That is the argument that you lot run from.

"Us lot" yet again. God, I wish I had the addresses of the rest of this group, I could invite them to the local coffee shop for a catch up. And of course, to plan our nefarious deeds.

7. We can get by without this road, in Europe they do because they care. It is only here that people hears about lorries that cannot stop.

THAT'S THE WHOLE POINT! Yes, it's only in Slane that there is a problem with lorries that cannot stop. As my 12 year old would say .. duh!!! Go ahead and Google. I'll wait for you. Show me a comparative site in Europe, where they have a steep gradient leading to loss of braking power by lorries, which then mow down traffic. Then show me how "Europe" (the vagueness is unreal) did nothing about it. Back up your argument.

8. Will our childern get by in the present and future conditions? Will they have the schooling and care they deserves, have they a future is a corroupt and bust land or is the mania for building more roads more important than this?

Are Slane children excluded from this? Because if not, you could look at it this way:

Are Slane children entitled to have the schooling they deserve (and the right to be transported to and from school without fear of mortal injury).

Are Slane children entitled to the care they deserve (including knowing that their parents will still be alive after the school run to collect them).

Seven cars were involved in the most recent accident, most of them mothers, a grandmother, at least two pre-school children, all going home after dropping children to school. Do those children, and parents, not have rights, or do you get to choose which children are entitled to "schooling and care".

What about David Garvey? What about his rights? He would have been 12 this year. I know that because when he was killed I had a child of the same age. Relatives heard the news and phoned me up to make sure it wasn't us. Then I had to phone everyone I knew before they heard, to reassure them. Have you any idea what it's like to live like this on a day to day basis?

9. All my arguments are connected to that; what we have been doing, what we can afford, what is sustainable.
I point out what the hubris of Fianna Fail has cost us and what we should be doing to correct this.

Not that it should make any difference, but for the sake of clarity, I've never voted Fianna Fail. I come from an ABFF family. I can't understand why they keep getting returned to power. But what has that got to do with trying to save lives on Slane bridge?

10. You lot just snort about deaths and roads.
Wake up to reality

This really just says it all, and I'm going to let it speak for itself.

thegreenspirit

Can lorries not be made stop a hundred meters before the cross; i.e., change the position of the lights and place them further back from the dissecting road. Then if their brakes suddenly fail, as seems to happen so often and only in Slane, they could steer the lorry into a safe secure side barrier. Such barriers are known to exist.
Could a small walkover bridge not be installed at the cross road in the seldom case of a lorry not obeying this method.
Such walk over bridges spanning roads are know to exist too. There is a good one in Fairview, in Dublin 3, a road much wider and larger road than the one at Slane.
If these and the ban on HGVs were to be implemented then deaths could be cut to a minimum, (people will still die, that unfortunately is part of life) and a world renown and precious landscape saved and all for less that a hundred thousand euros.
Perhaps the walk over bridge and barriers could even be made in Ireland?
Then there is the very real possibility of an underpass as the Germans so often favour; I have seen many in Munich going under roads that would dwarf the one at Slane.
A few locals might find work constructing it.
Then stretching it even further could the By Pass, if it is still needed and so mystically wanted, not go to the west of the village of Slane, through the lands of Mr Lord Mountcharles? Why is his heritage favoured over ours???
Then there is the possibility of building a new wider, straighter bridge. Any European army can build them in days and they take much heavier traffic than at Slane.
Such a new bridge, straight and clad in stone could be built in Slane in a year.
Again locals might find work building it.
To calm the hysterical appeasers of tarmac in the village of Slane all of this could be done and it would still cost less and ruin less that the proposed new road.
However I feel that if this did happen then the local Fianna Fail Tarmac Crew would in all likelihood still say no; their machinations are hard to fathom, even the poor, those on the dole and those who have had all their entitlements cut cannot do this, they are presented with the conclusion that it is some unknown sort of fate.
So it looks like “destroy again”. Slane take your malignant bow.

buffalo

Slane Resident, my advice is to walk away from this raving loon. From this thread, it's like talking to a brick wall.

Slane Resident

5 x 5, Buffalo!

thegreenspirit

Ok lads hurl insults but before you both walk away try to answer my last few questions, there are many more people than me reading this thread.
Answer the questions then walk away, I won't call you back.

Riamfada

Okay this thread is heading towards a locking unless anyone has anything to say about the archaeology beneath the Slane bypass.

Slane Resident

Grimes, I'm sorry. I've been trying to put forward logical counterpoints to The Green Spirit's arguments, but at some stage frustration sets in!

TGS, do you know the area of Slane? It's just that it's very hard to describe why these ideas won't work to someone who doesn't seem to know the area, but I'll do my best.

You can't stop the lorries 100 metres from the cross. In the first place there's nowhere to stop them; in the second place it wouldn't do any good since at least some of the accidents have occurred further back. You could stop them before they get to Slane, but then by the time they get to the bottom of Mill Hill they'd have picked up speed again. You couldn't put in a lay area anywhere between say, the outskirts of the northern side of Slane and Mill Hill without destroyings parts of the heritage village.

You are aware that Slane is a heritage village? It's just that a flyover pedestrian bridge seems an odd choice from someone concerned about heritage.

A lot of your arguments seem to have no basis in fact. (Such as your "I bet that my road is as bad" argument earlier, for example). Are you basing your figure of 100,000 euros for this proposed pedestrian flyover on anything? It's just that I know you can't build a house for 100K, so I'm wondering how you'd build a bridge for it.

Underpass - ditto the heritage village. What bit of the heritage area would you choose to dig up? Do the lorries or the cars take the underpass? If the cars take the underpass, the pedestrians/cyclists are still at risk. If the lorries take the underpass, and I'm purely speculating here, (and perhaps an archaeologist could confirm this) I would imagine a lot of damage would be done to the underlying foundations of the important heritage sites such as the four Georgian houses at the crossroads. As it is, if you sit in a coffee shop in Slane village, you can feel vibrations in your chest from the HGVs going up and down. I wouldn't like to think what damage that would do under the ground.

There have been multiple posts about why the western bypass site isn't suitable, including on the Save Newgrange forum where you're also posting. The reasons the western bypass wouldn't be suitable are that they would cause real impact on heritage sites such as the Hill of Slane, Ladyswell, St. Erc's Hermitage, Beauparc House, Slane Castle, Dollardstown house, etc. The route would also be approximately twice as long (and I know you don't favour spending money on roads) and would have to detour around a quarry. The impact on the above sites would be actual impact, as opposed to whatever impact is imagined will occur by placing the road 3.5 kms from Newgrange.

Wider, straighter bridge - great. Solves the problem of the damage being caused to the actual heritage bridge, and the lorries plunging off it. Doesn't solve the problem of the second accident site such as the recent accident just past the school. The road is steep the whole way from Collon; a bridge alone wouldn't solve the problem.

If you want to inform yourself about the facts I would suggest you visit the facebook page Save Newgrange - the facts where the various options are being debated by all sides in an open and frank manner. You might find it illuminating.

thegreenspirit

Yes, Grimes,
it is good to hear from you and your ideas, all alternatives are to be welcomed. However you missed one; ban HGVs and then look at my alternatives. Together an answer could be worked out.
You seem to ignore the ban which has already been decided but not implemented and the fact that two motorways were built to allow these vechicles bypass villages like Slane. Also if they are allowed bypass the tolls who then will pay for these roads?
Yes I know Slane too, I was born not that far away. No; I do not hate roads or cars or lorries either. I worked for Mercedes Benz for years and in Munich I seen visions of the future. Vehicles ran on hydrogen, public transport affordable and used and enforced car pooling. If we did that and if we controlled our population then we would have enough roads for another two or three incarnations. We will in fact have to do this in about twenty years when climate change kicks in, in a serious way.
Many people are now asking themselves why Fianna Fail were allowed ransack our country, in twenty years will we be saying the same about our environment. Farmers, those recently flooded out and serious social planners are already asking these questions. The mania of road building has to be questioned too.
My advice again is to ban HGVs and then build the overpass, underpass, etc. I am not aware that every street or house in Slane is protected but if they are then logic should say in the interest of sustainability, cost and safety then some may have to make way. Anything would be cheeper than a new road.
It is always better to evolve than revolt, we have no money to spend on new roads and a new bridge is doable to. If we had the will to!
So use the money we have to fix up the roads we have and save our heritage; perhaps the only reason quality tourists will in future come.
I have not seen detailed worked out alternatives or why they could or could not work. As far as I know no one else has seen them either. Every tin hat, including myself, have ideas but where are the published reports on the alternatives?
Is there for example a study on the benifits of banning the HGVs and if not how was a decession made to ignore this?
If you have seen any of these reports and if you have them then please post them up, you will do us all a favor.
Your views and ideas are welcome just dont keep hammering on about deaths. Ten of thousands of people are endangered in Ireland now, lying on trollies or denied care because the hubris of developement has left us all broke. Must we continue that?
John.

Slane Resident

TGS, your arguments contradict each other but I'll do my best to rebut them. (Save heritage by not building 3.5 km away from Newgrange in a green field, but physically dig up parts of Slane to save money).

The HGV ban is not workable, apparently, due to the fact that the government cannot force the toll operator to lift the toll for lorries. The government doesn't run the M1, a private operator does. We mightn't like that fact (and I don't), but there it is. A free alternative has to be provided to a tolled road. That free alternative is the N2.

If the HGVs on the N2 were diverted, where would you divert them to? Donore, Duleek? Those roads would be even less suitable for HGVs (I'm taking the accidents out of the equation here and just talking about traffic volume, weight, etc.) and would cause major damage to infrastructure, as well as shifting the dangers caused by HGVs so some other town. We want our bypass, but not if it means reading about deaths in Duleek a couple of months later.

Are you aware that the bypass is only 6 kms in length? From the way you're posting it sounds as if a new road is being built from Dublin to Slane. Perhaps someone who knows more about these matters than me could do an off the cuff cost comparison, as you seem to be focusing on the financial aspects, but I would personally feel that building underpasses, overpasses, flyovers, etc., in one of the most important heritage towns in the country, would not be cost-effective. Leaving aside of course the damage to the area.

What exactly is your position, TGS? I mean, I know you're anti-bypass but is it from a financial point of view, or from a heritage point of view? It's just that it seems to me from your last post that you are saying that it would be cheaper to damage the village of Slane than to build a bypass around it. "Logic would say that in the of sustainability, cost and safety then some [streets and houses in Slane which may be protected] may have to make way. Anything would be cheeper than a new road". Really? Anything cheaper than a 6 km bypass? Building an underpass through Slane Village, and a pedestrian flyover, and a new bridge, would come to less money than a 6 km stretch of road? And from a heritage point of view, according to you, it's better to damage one of the most important heritage villages in the country than build a 6 km bypass, 3.5 kms away from Newgrange, and which won't be audible or visible from Newgrange? Really?

Here's a link to Meath County Council's documents on the bypass including a photographic map (yes, I know that's not a technical term but I'm a lay person!) which gives a good overview of the route and its environs.

http://www.meath.ie/LocalAuthorities/Roads/MajorRoadsProjects/N2SlaneBypass/SlaneBypassPublications/

"Tens of thousands of people lying on trollies" - do you think if this bypass is built, that's going to get worse? Or the health service is going to be magically fixed if the bypass isn't built? By all means campaign against the crappy health service in this country. Just don't muddy the issues. And if it's purely a matter of saving money with you, then perhaps you could agree with me that funding for golf clubs and horse racing authorities and such could be abolished and that money then could be used to build the bypass, while not forcing any more pensioners onto trolleys. Sorry, but it's just not that simple.

All the relevant links are on Save Newgrange The Facts facebook page. They were moved there following the censorship on the Save Newgrange page where any debate was stifled and the users banned (even one of the Save Newgrange pages' admins admitted one of his own posts was deleted within a few seconds!). I can't access Facebook today as there seems to be a problem with the site. Feel free to take a look at all the links there; you can at least inform yourself and will hopefully be able to take a measured position rather than kneejerk "I bet" arguments.

And just one point - I'm doing my best to engage in civil debate with you, despite frequent provocations. If you accuse me of "hammering on" about deaths, or "snorting" about deaths and roads, then you may get what you want - the last word, albeit one that hopefully will illustrate just how illogical your position is, as each of your arguments (based on absolute lack of knowledge or research - "I bet"; "I'm not aware but"). You are minimising the deaths; I am merely trying to illustrate why the road is so important, by countering your immigration, health care and other facetious arguments. I wouldn't dream of "using" the deaths in such a callous manner as you accuse me of. I know some of the families involved.

Bog Butter

It is good to see a debate going on. The anti Slane by-pass road campaigners oppose this road in the name of Newgrange. The Neolithic megalithic monments of the Boyne valley will not be damaged by this road. The road is 500m from the buffer zone.

Green I sense from your posts that you are sensitive in general terms to roads cutting through the landscape. Is the visual impact of the road your main concern?

thegreenspirit

Hi,
I have just heard that since 2002 when single line traffic was introuced over the Slane Bridge there have been no deaths and in the following seven years there have been just three minor accidents.
Is this true Slane Resident???

Slane Resident

And so, the smear campaign begins.

A real Slane resident (as opposed to me, I presume) tells you that "a group of young Fianna Fail members are in fact the people writing on the various sites using ridiculous names and blocking any and every sane attempt to open a debate on the alternatives".

1. Ridiculous names like what? "The Green Spirit"? A lot of people use pseudonyms when posting.

2. I can't speak for too many people but I can speak for some. I am <mod edit>. I posted once on Save Newgrange to answer a question as to what was happening to Newgrange. I replied to this post with the answer that a road was to be built metres 500 metres from the buffer zone. This single post was deleted and I was then barred from the site, and received an email from Vincent Salafia telling me that I was "abusive" and "disruptive" (I was neither), and that his site was not a place for balanced or moderate debate. :rolleyes:

I rejoined, using the name "Myheads Melted" which is a name I used on another site, nothing to do with Slane. I was very quickly barred again, once more for attempting to correct errors on the site. I then posted as Myheads Barredagain. I make no apologies for that; I would continue to post under <name removed> if the Save Newgrange site didn't practice ongoing censorship and blocking of people who wish to debate in an adult and informed way.

I now post on Save Newgrange the Facts which is an attempt to have uncensored debate about the issue.

3. I am not and have never been a member of Fianna Fail. I'm not a member of any political party, and I've never even voted for Fianna Fail. I come from an ABFF family.

4. The Bypass Slane campaign was set up by mothers who were involved in the 2009 accident, after dropping kids off on the school run. I note you are echoing Vincent Salafia's "front for a political group" organisation. It's always easier to answer with mudslinging rather than address the issues. Is it so hard to believe that we would want our children to get to school safely? And if we were all Fianna Fail heads, we don't seem to be doing a very good job since there's a lot of criticism of the government going around.

5. I know personally one other member of the Bypass Slane site who is also ABFF. That person is also barred from Save Newgrange for having the temerity to contradict the deliberate attempts at misinformation on that site.

6. I'm surprised you even bothered to post here, since you've already alleged on the Save Newgrange site that "there is another thread running on Boards.ie and because I have challanged the pro road lobby, often I admit in an unplesant manner, they have threathened to close the whole thread down. Talk about crummy babies?". I was of the opinion that both Buffalo and I were getting a rap on the knuckles for being facetious. I didn't realise that in fact this site was part of the campaign against you.

7. Photos of the 2009 accident are at http://www.facebook.com/topic.php?topic=12533&post=58135&uid=438725795435#!/group.php?v=photos&gid=286896560291&so=15. Take a look. It was a miracle that some of the occupants of those seven cars didn't die, particularly the one that was turned upsidedown. Don't use blind luck to try to make your case for you.

Slane Resident

For the sake of clarity, I should say that TGS has edited his post since I replied. His original post read "I have just been told that "since 2002 when the single file traffic system was introduced over the Slane Bridge there has been no deaths, with just 3 minor injury accidents in the following 7 years". Is that true?
It has also been brought to my notice by a real Slane resident that a group of young Fianna Fail members are in fact the people writing on the various sites, using ridiculous names and blocking any and every sane attempt to open a debate on the alternatives. For the sake of truth please inform me about this???
John".

It is for this reason that I am referring to Fianna Fail (without this clarification my reply wouldn't make much sense)!

Edited to add that this censorship continues. I have now been barred again from the Save Newgrange site. Time for persona No. 4, methinks. Ridiculous - but what can you do?!

thegreenspirit

I notice that no one has answered my question
"How many people were killed since 2002?", since new traffic calming measures were introduced?
Was the last accident part of three minor ones in 7 years?
Please answer this and show just how wrong and piosioned the death claims were that were been pushed forward on this and other sites and used to justify a new hundred million euro road that we cannot afford.
Simple and precice; just answer, how many???
I edited my last post three times because of font problems as I was earlier asked to do.
John.

Slane Resident

thegreenspirit wrote: »

I edited my last post three times because of font problems as I was earlier asked to do.
John.

I am not referring to fonts. I am referring to the fact that your original post included the following:

It has also been brought to my notice by a real Slane resident that a group of young Fianna Fail members are in fact the people writing on the various sites, using ridiculous names and blocking any and every sane attempt to open a debate on the alternatives. For the sake of truth please inform me about this???

Why have you not firstly answered this point? You are alleging I am not answering your questions but I have done in my response to you. The 2009 accident was not a "minor" accident as you allege on another forum. Look at the photos. It was mere chance, and sheer good luck, that there were not a number of fatalities. In your mind,that means that accident doesn't count? Seven cars ploughed into by a lorry which only was subsequently stopped because luckily enough another HGV was there to stop it, before it could plough through more cars? An overturned car, seven badly damaged cars, lots of mothers and children - minor?!

John Ryle of the Slane Bridge Action Committee has put it eloquently in his presentation to the Dail as follows:

http://www.bypassslane.ie/PresentationOir150709.pdf

Thirdly, in the absence of the bypass and a HGV ban, traffic calming measures would
appear to be the most likely to improve road safety in Slane in the interim. However,
measures that were put in place following the last fatality in 2001 have only been of
limited success as incidents continue to occur regularly. We question the level of
monitoring and maintenance of these measures. For example, the high friction
surfacing appears to have almost completely worn away in certain places and most of
the dividing strips separating the lanes on Mill Hill have disappeared. Cameras
installed to monitor traffic activity, including accidents, apparently do not work.
Traffic calming measures did nothing to prevent the out-of-control truck on 23rd
March and have, it may be argued, actually contributed to certain incidents. Even
since then at least two further incidents involving HGVs have taken place.
We would welcome the speedy reinforcement of existing traffic calming measures
and we would like to suggest that the following be considered. The carriageways
should be visibly narrowed and include constrictions, especially on the northern
approaches to the village, to force drivers to reduce their speed. Furthermore,
pedestrian-controlled crossings need to be provided, especially at the school and the
new playground. We also strongly urge the immediate installation of speed cameras
and electronic flashing signage giving vehicle speeds and warning of the steep
gradients.


Answer my post about your removed Fianna Fail allegations please. While you're at it, you might also let me know why you feel it appropriate to refer to me as a "malignant clown" and part of a "cabal of bastards" on another site (solely in relation to a post on this site) while attempting to keep up a pretence of discussion here. Is this possibly because this board is moderated, whereas on Save Newgrange where you are posting as John Farrelly any comments deemed negative to the "cause" are being deleted (including those comments correcting Vincent Salafia's frequent posting that the road is 500 metres away from Newgrange).

thegreenspirit

When I first accessed this site, the pro-road supporters used death as their main and often only demand for a road. They said often and repeated that the Slane Bridge was among the most dangerous places in Ireland and so a road was needed. Anyone who cycles back through these posts can see the hysterical claims that were made again and again. So I decided to have a look at this.
I was then made aware that since traffic calming measures were introduced in Slane in 2002 that no deaths have occured and in the following 7 years there were only three minor accidents on the bridge.
If this is true then Slane Bridge is in fact one of the safest sites in Ireland.
If so then the people making such claims have to come forward and admit, yes we lied. We used deaths as a malignant lie. Lies too were the white crosses, the smears by Killian in the Meath Chronicle etc.
I have asked and I will ask again; how many people have been killed by traffic in Slane since 2002? Grimes etc please...
Those with moral backbone, those who claim to be normal decent people will I am sure come forward to tell the truth, some may even come forward and say yes, with regards to the lies we told we are sorry.
Then a real debate can start.
This has not happenned though and until it does malignant clowns etc are the best terms that can be used to explain the liars.
I take back nothing. I have been told that Fianna Fail have employed people to disrupt and destroy the campaign against the road. It now appears true.
A real Slane resident, one who I know lives there, has pointed out these facts out to me and I have posted them up on other sites. She has told me too that there is a small minority who actually want the road and that most Slane people are sick of the Fianna Fail hubris and lies which has left Slane and Ireland on the bottom of every European list. She says too that Slane needs almost everything except a road.
I still give the benifit of doubt that she may have been wrong and that many many people have died in Slane due to road accidents since 2002;
HENCE MY URGENT QUESTION.
So again; how many people have been killed in Slane since 2002.
Until this is answered every and any posting by the pro road lobby should be treated with contempt.

Slane Resident

You haven't answered any of the issues I have raised. Could you please do so before copying and pasting new allegations?

thegreenspirit

So the lies stand? A road that no one wants, needs or can afford is to be built on the back of invented dead while Irish childern die for lack of care, our old die on Trollies, and vital services are cut to the bone to build roads that lie on invented dead....
But the lie stands. How low can humans go.
No deaths in nine years, three small minor accidents but white crosses and lies, pot holes and lies, a ruined landscpae and lies.
There is supposed to be a moderator on this site I was told; where is he or she then ???
How low can humans go?

Riamfada

Ok it would appear that this is the only site that isnt moderating and deleting anyones posts from either side on this topic. Thats why Im going to let this run but please keep it civil and attempt sanity. I dont want to have to edit or change anyones posts. Im all about free speech, clarity and contextualization.

Slane Resident

Thank you Grimes.

The Save Newgrange The Facts site, by the way, does not censor posts, and anyone is welcome to come over to put their point of view there.

TGS, I refuse to answer you until you come back with a response to my questions above. You accuse others of not answering but you flit from topic to topic continuously without ever addressing the issues.

"Invented dead". You should be absolutely ashamed of yourself, that's all I can say on this. I'm too annoyed to say more.

buffalo

thegreenspirit wrote: »

If this is true then Slane Bridge is in fact one of the safest sites in Ireland.

thegreenspirit wrote: »

No deaths in nine years, three small minor accidents but white crosses and lies, pot holes and lies, a ruined landscpae and lies.

One of the safest sites in Ireland? What complete and utter tripe. I'm surprised you haven't been banned for trolling. Perhaps you might judge these "minor accidents" for yourself TGS. They are classified as such due to the fact that there were no deaths, but here's an account of the most recent one:

It is believed the crash occurred when the brakes and gears failed on an articulated lorry on a hill in Slane before it careered into a line of motors. A number of vehicles were flipped over on to their roofs from the force of the collisions.

Families returning from the school run were among those caught up in the collision, which saw at least six cars written off and two lorries badly damaged.

...

Four people were taken to hospital, but the victims, including a baby, reportedly suffered only minor injuries. One person was cut from the wreckage of their vehicle by emergency services.

One person remained in hospital tonight in Our Lady of Lourdes Hospital in Drogheda.

From http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2009/0323/breaking35.html

thegreenspirit

There have been no deaths due to traffic accidents in Slane Village in nine years, since they changed the traffic flow, yet a small cabal of Fianna Fail vampires are now using internet sites to lie and to say that there has been many deaths in this time and they are using this to to promote a road at New Grange that no one wants, needs or can afford.

Can everybody who cares about the truth, sanity and sustainability please log onto the following forums;
Bords.ie, Politics.ie, Facebook.ie and Gumtre.ie which these cabal of vampires are using to promote these lies and use “the report this site module” to complain that these forums are been misused by this hidden cabal of Fianna Fail vampires to spread mistruths, lies and mangle free speech and free expression.
Also clarify that they are also using these sites to misuse and lie about an invented Slane Dead, to justify and promote a policy of road building that is leading to the destruction of our land, society and heritage.
Please Ireland use your voice now!

Slane Resident

:rolleyes:

You're right. Us vampires should go back to our Fianna Fail meeting and let you get on with digging the underpass through the heritage village of Slane, one of the safest roads in the country and much safer than "your road", "you bet", and building the flyover which will amazingly cost 100,000, so that you can prevent the immigrants from taking all our jobs to Asia. Then while we're drinking blood in a Fianna Fail orgy, you can then move on to the health service and sort out the "trollies". Or am I mixing up some of your arguments? And then you can take the crosses off the wall because they're lies. Presumably you'll notify the victims' families first or are they lying too?

Thanks for the Gumtree tipoff, I must take a look there now.

Still haven't answered any of the questions raised by the way. I won't hold my breath.

Sorry Grimes, for being snippy. I think you'll agree I've done my best to answer illogical arguments with fact. I'll leave it to someone else now; there are too many people out there with reasonable attitudes to waste time on someone whose posts speak for themselves.

"Hammering on about death". "Inventing deaths". Do you ever stand back and think about what you're posting? Do you think that maybe victims families might read what you have written? Shame on you, John.

buffalo

thegreenspirit wrote: »

an invented Slane Dead

That is just utterly offensive.

thegreenspirit

Facts.
There have been no deaths due to traffic accidents in Slane Village in nine years, since they changed the traffic flow and only a few minor accidents. Yet in all the reports promoting the new road I read this is never mentioned.
Instead a lie implying that death is a constant visitor on the Slane bridge is been promoted to justify and promote a policy of road building that is leading to the destruction of our land, society and heritage.

Look in Vain…
A warning shot has been fired across the bows of protesters against the proposed Slane bypass this week that delays to the project could result in even more loss of life.
John Ryle of the Slane Bridge Action Committee asked if environmental and heritage protesters would be able to live with themselves if there was another tragedy in the village if the project was delayed. "The primary reason for the bypass is to end the carnage in Slane. It is a matter of life and death," he said. 2010.
.
This road is not about economics or shortening journey times by a matter of a few minutes; it is about saving lives. This bypass will reduce the number of deaths and accidents on this notorious stretch of road.
Slane Bypass Campaign.
Slane Cottage.
Slane. 2010

"Let UNESCO have the truth and the facts of the matter, not misinformation. I am calling for whatever it takes to inform them about the 22 deaths in Slane. One death is too many we have to have this bypass." Cllr Dillon Gallagher,
Cllr Wayne Harding supported Cllr Dillon Gallagher, saying that the boundaries of the Newgrange site had been clearly drawn. The misinformation being put about would have to be stopped now. He called on the county council to get the "correct" information out to the public. Meath Council Meeting January 2010

Meath County Council Meeting January 2010
Cllr Ann Dillon Gallagher proposed the suspension of standing orders so that Mr Safalia's claims about the bypass could be discussed.
So much misinformation is going around over the Slane bypass," she went on.
"Let UNESCO have the truth and the facts of the matter, not misinformation. I am calling for whatever it takes to inform them about the 22 deaths in Slane. One death is too many we have to have this bypass
Meath County Council Meeting January 2010

Photo of Crosses The Meath Chronicle 3rd February 2010

A spokeswoman for the Slane residents said: “Meath County Councillors unanimously voted for a ban on HGVs passing through the village shortly after the last major collision at the end of March.” Although the council officials prepared a report in response to the motion from the councillors, the residents say nothing else has been done. “Sixteen-hundred trucks pass through this residential village each day, an intolerable situation that has directly caused numerous deaths and made hostages of the community,” the spokeswoman said.
The Irish Times - Wednesday, July 15, 2009

Slane by-pass and the Archaeology beneth - Page 3 - boards.ie
"The primary reason for the bypass is to end the carnage in Slane. It is a matter of life and death.
www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=64325612

Slane is well known as a accident blackspot. Garda figures confirm this with the stretch of the N2 through Slane village at the top of their list of Collision Prone Zones. There is no publicly available list of the deaths and injuries but to date at least 22 people have lost their lives and countless others have been injured in road traffic incidents on the roads of Slane. Bypass Slane Campaign 2010

The Bypass Slane Campaign was formed in April 2009 in the aftermath of a serious road traffic incident in Slane Village on 23/03/09.
The road and bridge through the village has been a notorious blackspot in the area for decades, and in February 2001 the local community was devastated by tragic death of toddler David Garvey after the brakes failed on a lorry which then ploughed into his family's car. 2010

The Slane Bridge Action Group was established in the wake of the tragedy and the group are delighted that the plans for the bypass are now moving forward after years of delays.
The dangers posed by the steep Mill Hill were once again in evidence in April last year when the brakes on another vehicle failed causing a seven vehicle pile up involving five cars and two lorries.
The Slane Bridge Action Group 2010.

Facts Again
There have been no deaths due to traffic accidents in Slane Village in nine years and only a few minor accidents, (three?), since they changed the traffic flow. One famous accident, the last one last March was when the brakes filed on a lorry. Then it was blamed on the lack of a bypass, not the fact that the brakes failed on the lorry.
In all the reports I read promoting the new bypass this is never mentioned.
A lie implying that death is a constant visitor on the Slane bridge is been promoted to justify and promote a policy of road building that is leading to the destruction of our land, society and heritage.

John Farrelly.