Govt considering lowering minimum wage

ei.sdraob

anymore wrote: »

I am all for lowering the minimum wage as long as Corporate Tax rates are raised to the same levels as payable by PAYE workers.
Even the ESRI have said we wshould be getting used to raising Corporate tax rates.

great idea lets raise corpo tax to 20-40%

watch how many of these PAYE workers have a job left a month after this occurs

:rolleyes:

anymore

ei.sdraob wrote: »

great idea lets raise corpo tax to 20-40%

watch how many of these PAYE workers have a job left a month after this occurs

:rolleyes:

You miss the point !
The rea;ity is that the artificially low Corporate tax rate more than compensates companies for any alleged disadvantages asssociated with the minimum wage. The desire of comapnies to see wages fall as the economy has entered recession wasnt accompanied by any desire to wages rise when the economy was booming. The natural tendency for wages to rise was curbed by the admittance of workers from eastern europe. Without the admittance of this new workers pool, in many cases wages in some sectors would have risen higher than they actually did.
Nor is it ever mentioned that the very existence of a minimum wage often resulted, partly from the ' herd mentality' in employers paying the lower minimum wage than they might otherwise offer.

ei.sdraob

anymore wrote: »

You miss the point !
The rea;ity is that the artificially low Corporate tax rate more than compensates companies for any alleged disadvantages asssociated with the minimum wage. The desire of comapnies to see wages fall as the economy has entered recession wasnt accompanied by any desire to wages rise when the economy was booming. The natural tendency for wages to rise was curbed by the admittance of workers from eastern europe. Without the admittance of this new workers pool, in many cases wages in some sectors would have risen higher than they actually did.
Nor is it ever mentioned that the very existence of a minimum wage often resulted, partly from the ' herd mentality' in employers paying the lower minimum wage than they might otherwise offer.

the low corporation tax (btw Cyprus have a lower one and companies are moving there now and they are in EU) is the only positive left for doing business in this country

remove that and overnight we go back to digging potatoes

The natural tendency for wages to rise is part of inflation, in case you haven't notice we are in a period of large deflation, yet wages and welfare have barely budged, is there some golden rule in economics that says that wages can only ever go up?

what you propose is so daft and shortsighted its not funny, if it were ever to happen i be on first plane out of here since i wont want to stick around to experience the complete destruction of the economy

yee socilalistas ask where the jobs are gone and why are they leaving the country? why not take of blinkers and look around

/

anymore

ei.sdraob wrote: »

the low corporation tax (btw Cyprus have a lower one and companies are moving there now and they are in EU) is the only positive left for doing business in this country

remove that and overnight we go back to digging potatoes

The natural tendency for wages to rise is part of inflation, in case you haven't notice we are in a period of large deflation, yet wages and welfare have barely budged, is there some golden rule in economics that says that wages can only ever go up?

what you propose is so daft and shortsighted its not funny, if it were ever to happen i be on first plane out of here since i wont want to stick around to experience the complete destruction of the economy

yee socilalistas ask where the jobs are gone and why are they leaving the country? why not take of blinkers and look around

/

Far be from me to try to prevent you taking that plane - if you need a lift to the airport, give me a shout.
The notion we are in a period of deflation is a gross simplification - in fact food prices are now rising significantly as are fuel prices. In fact some food stuffs, cheese for example, saw little or no defaltion. The main area of deflation, house proces, doesnt really affect people on minimum wage as many of these will be rented houses and/or in local authority accomodation.
None of the industries which the Government is trying to attract to Ireland pay minimum wages, there were almost no construction firms paying minimum wages - this push for minimum wage reduction is being driven mainly by the hospitality industry which has cut its own throat by being so successful in lobbying for tax breaks and the extension of tax breaks that it has resulted in massive over supply - this is where the market should be allowed to operate -
You are of course completely wrong around about wages not going down.
Try reading some ESRI literature on the subject of Ireland's Corporation tax rates.
Dont forget my offer to drive you to airport !

jmayo

brianthebard wrote: »

I have to say it; competitive with who? The article claims this relates to the retail, construction and hospitality industries only, so this isn't going to entice new MNC's, or help keep any that are here. Along with that, who are we going to compete with-Poland? Taiwan? India? Never going to be possible.

Ehh hospitality industry has huge knock on in tourism.
How many British people, and not the usual stag nighters, have stopped coming to ireland over last 7/8 years because guess what it was too f***ing expensive for accomodation, dining out etc.
Americans are not travelling anyway due to dollar, terrorism so we are even more reliant on our old friends the Brits.

anymore wrote: »

I am all for lowering the minimum wage as long as Corporate Tax rates are raised to the same levels as payable by PAYE workers.
Even the ESRI have said we wshould be getting used to raising Corporate tax rates.

OMG.
Are you in SF by any chance ?
Yeah the ESRI another bunch of economic forecasters.

FFS low corpo tax is one of the few advantages we have in attracting FDI.
Now like it not we are still dependent on FDI.

BTW I never subsribed to low corpo tax and low capital gains tax for property development that adds nothing to our export earning potential or attraction of foreign investment.

brianthebard

ei.sdraob wrote: »

great idea lets raise corpo tax to 20-40%

watch how many of these PAYE workers have a job left a month after this occurs

:rolleyes:

So its either our current rate....or 40%? :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

anymore

jmayo wrote: »

Ehh hospitality industry has huge knock on in tourism.
How many British people, and not the usual stag nighters, have stopped coming to ireland over last 7/8 years because guess what it was too f***ing expensive for accomodation, dining out etc.
Americans are not travelling anyway due to dollar, terrorism so we are even more reliant on our old friends the Brits.



OMG.
Are you in SF by any chance ?
Yeah the ESRI another bunch of economic forecasters.

FFS low corpo tax is one of the few advantages we have in attracting FDI.
Now like it not we are still dependent on FDI.

BTW I never subsribed to low corpo tax and low capital gains tax for property development that adds nothing to our export earning potential or attraction of foreign investment.

The ESRI's predictions about the effects on our economy from our over reliance on the construction sector combined with an external shock to the financial system have been completely vindicated - they have nothing to prove or defend.
A number of surveys have shown that our low corporation tax rate is down the list of priorities for companies in the high tech industry, the kind we are trying to attack. Many of the companies who are attrcted primarily by our low tax rate, tend to be low employment, name plate on the wall kind of companies.
No I am not a Sinn Fein member. I am not personally saying the Corporate tax rate should be increased. I am saying that the realities of a low tax rate must be recognised by those calling for a decrease in minimum wage. If they take the advantage of an artificially low tax rate, then they should not be allowed to ask the taxpayer to subsidise the cost of employing minimum wage workers. Reduce the minimum wage and many of these workers will qualify for increased Social welfare benefits and assistance of one kind or another - in other words part of the real cost of employing low wage workers will be transferred to the general taxpayer whilst companies will be insulated from the paying the cost of these transfers by virtue of the fact that the Corporate tax rate is so low.

ei.sdraob

brianthebard wrote: »

So its either our current rate....or 40%? :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

why dont you read what @anymore posted :rolleyes: before rolling them eyes and making a fool of yourself

anymore wrote: »

I am all for lowering the minimum wage as long as Corporate Tax rates are raised to the same levels as payable by PAYE workers.
Even the ESRI have said we wshould be getting used to raising Corporate tax rates.

ei.sdraob

anymore wrote: »

Far be from me to try to prevent you taking that plane - if you need a lift to the airport, give me a shout.
The notion we are in a period of deflation is a gross simplification - in fact food prices are now rising significantly as are fuel prices. In fact some food stuffs, cheese for example, saw little or no defaltion. The main area of deflation, house proces, doesnt really affect people on minimum wage as many of these will be rented houses and/or in local authority accomodation.
None of the industries which the Government is trying to attract to Ireland pay minimum wages, there were almost no construction firms paying minimum wages - this push for minimum wage reduction is being driven mainly by the hospitality industry which has cut its own throat by being so successful in lobbying for tax breaks and the extension of tax breaks that it has resulted in massive over supply - this is where the market should be allowed to operate -
You are of course completely wrong around about wages not going down.
Try reading some ESRI literature on the subject of Ireland's Corporation tax rates.!

some things went up (strange how its pretty much anything connected or controlled by government :cool:)

some things went down

overall across the board the cost of living went down by 5%

that my friend is deflation, if you are on same wage now as you are a year ago, and your taxes are the same you are 5% better off

anymore wrote: »

Dont forget my offer to drive you to airport !

i might have to take a boat, seems your trade unions have decided to **** around with air transport in this country

SLUSK

Abolish the dole and abolish the minimum wage. If you find someone willing to work for €1 per hour it should be legal to hire this person over someone who wants €10 for the same job.

brianthebard

SLUSK wrote: »

Abolish the dole and abolish the minimum wage. If you find someone willing to work for €1 per hour it should be legal to hire this person over someone who wants €10 for the same job.

And yet, right wingers that this sort of thing is a race to the bottom?

ei.sdraob

brianthebard wrote: »

And yet, right wingers that this sort of thing is a race to the bottom?

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=64145172&postcount=6

ei.sdraob wrote: »

....

anyways cue "race to the bottom" opinion pieces in this thread

mind you "bottom" is exactly where we all endup if some people in this country continue sticking spuds in ears and chanting "we dont need to be competitive, the difference is were Irish..."

anymore

ei.sdraob wrote: »

why dont you read what @anymore posted :rolleyes: before rolling them eyes and making a fool of yourself

If I knew every single word i used was going to be minutely analysed, I would have said " raised to higher levels or to 20% or to 21.7544444% or 25.9999999499595 % ......... or .........whatever.
Address the substance of the arguement.

SLUSK

Government should not interfer with voluntary contracts between employer and employee. Lower wages would be good for you since the minimum wage is ridiculously high. Sweden which is known to be a so called socialist country does not have any minimum wage laws. Here the "minimum wage" is set in agreement between companies and the unions.

ei.sdraob

anymore wrote: »

If I knew every single word i used was going to be minutely analysed, I would have said " raised to higher levels or to 20% or to 21.7544444% or 25.9999999499595 % ......... or .........whatever.
Address the substance of the arguement.

At 20% (the standard rate):
the first €36,400, for individuals without dependent children
the first €40,400, for single or widowed persons qualifying for the One-Parent Family tax credit
the first €45,400, for married couples.
The balance of income is taxed at 41% (the higher rate).

thats a 20 to 40% taxband we have

apply the same to corporations and most of the people employed in the private sector in this country will find themselves out of a job

then again that seems exactly what the trade unions want, as shown over and over by their actions their line of thinking is
"**** the rest of society and economy, must keep the fat members fat at all costs, even if that means theres no economy left"

anymore

ei.sdraob wrote: »

some things went up (strange how its pretty much anything connected or controlled by government :cool:)

some things went down

overall across the board the cost of living went down by 5%

that my friend is deflation, if you are on same wage now as you are a year ago, and your taxes are the same you are 5% better off



i might have to take a boat, seems your trade unions have decided to **** around with air transport in this country

I supposed you would be surprised to know that I am not a member of a trade union, that I am not an employee and that I have a modestly small number of shares in Ryan Air !

that my friend is deflation, if you are on same wage now as you are a year ago, and your taxes are the same you are 5% better off

Simplistic superficial nonsense that you heard some gombeen politician parrot and that you have adopted as a mantra.
My cost of living across the board is now rising - that is an absolute fact, my income is down - that is an absolute fact. I am significantly worse off now than i have been. Ipso facto, I am not experiencing deflation, quite the opposite in fact.

ei.sdraob

anymore wrote: »

I supposed you would be surprised to know that I am not a member of a trade union, that I am not an employee and that I have a modestly small number of shares in Ryan Air !

that my friend is deflation, if you are on same wage now as you are a year ago, and your taxes are the same you are 5% better off

Simplistic superficial nonsense that you heard some gombeen politician parrot and that you have adopted as a mantra.
My cost of living across the board is now rising - that is an absolute fact, my income is down - that is an absolute fact. I am significantly worse off now than i have been. Ipso facto, I am not experiencing deflation, quite the opposite in fact.

ill put it in very simple terms to you

does a person deserve to get paid for the amount and quality of work they do

or is their pay based on what they are "entitled" to no matter how little work or how badly productive this person is

ei.sdraob

anymore wrote: »

My cost of living across the board is now rising - that is an absolute fact, my income is down - that is an absolute fact. I am significantly worse off now than i have been. Ipso facto, I am not experiencing deflation, quite the opposite in fact.

so because the cost of living is rising for you

you "deserve" to get more wages, where have i heard that one before (benchmarking)


nothing to do with you being more productive, but everything to do with you being "entitled" to more

anymore

ei.sdraob wrote: »

At 20% (the standard rate):
the first €36,400, for individuals without dependent children
the first €40,400, for single or widowed persons qualifying for the One-Parent Family tax credit
the first €45,400, for married couples.
The balance of income is taxed at 41% (the higher rate).

thats a 20 to 40% taxband we have

apply the same to corporations and most of the people employed in the private sector in this country will find themselves out of a job

then again that seems exactly what the trade unions want, as shown over and over by their actions their line of thinking is
"**** the rest of society and economy, must keep the fat members fat at all costs, even if that means theres no economy left"

The majority of trade union memebrs are not paid minimum wage rates, they are paid significantly more. The majority of minimum wage workers are not members of trade unions.
You are avoiding the essential relationship between low corporate tax rates and the real cost of paying minimum wages - the employer does not pay the full real cost of having people working at minimum wage rates - the general tax payer, through the Social Welfare system, subsidies the cost of minimum wage employment.
Address the substance if you are confident in your beliefs and stop being picky and arguementative about individual details

anymore

ei.sdraob wrote: »

so because the cost of living is rising for you

you "deserve" to get more wages, where have i heard that one before (benchmarking)


nothing to do with you being more productive, but everything to do with you being "entitled" to more

Dear me !
If I am not an ' employee', the question of my getting a wage does not arise therefore the emotive question of my ' deserving' wages does not arise. I introduced the personal details regarding myself merely to illustrate a point ! I have said you keep making generalisations. Try to set aside your prejudices and be more detached.

Sleepy

I'd just abolish the minimum wage and make anyone employed by government to enforce / administrate it redundant.

As long as we have a welfare state, we already have an effective minimum wage: the rate of Job Seeker's Allowance. In reality, the minimum wage would be JSA * 1.x where x is the percentage increment over JSA payments required to attract workers off the dole.

I have to admit though that I see this as just another means of the government trying to make the private sector absorb most of the pain so they don't have to have another spat with their union buddies.

ei.sdraob

anymore wrote: »

The majority of trade union memebrs are not paid minimum wage rates, they are paid significantly more. The majority of minimum wage workers are not members of trade unions.
You are avoiding the essential relationship between low corporate tax rates and the real cost of paying minimum wages - the employer does not pay the full real cost of having people working at minimum wage rates - the general tax payer, through the Social Welfare system, subsidies the cost of minimum wage employment.
Address the substance if you are confident in your beliefs and stop being picky and arguementative about individual details

you do realize that employers beside paying the wage to the employees

have to pay another 10% or so to the government on top of that?

its not the job of companies to administer a welfare state, a companies aim is very simple > make profit

if a company cant make profit, they close, people loose their jobs and the government ends up having to borrow and/or tax more

if your suggestion of increasing the corporation tax to 20 to 40% in line with income taxes is carried out, then overnight majority of businesses in this country become unprofitable as thats another large cost, unprofitable businesses close, that leads to redundancies and no jobs

anymore

ei.sdraob wrote: »

you do realize that employers beside paying the wage to the employees

have to pay another 10% or so to the government on top of that?

its not the job of companies to administer a welfare state, a companies aim is very simple > make profit

if a company cant make profit, they close, people loose their jobs and the government ends up having to borrow and/or tax more

if your suggestion of increasing the corporation tax to 20 to 40% in line with income taxes is carried out, then overnight majority of businesses in this country become unprofitable as thats another large cost, unprofitable businesses close, that leads to redundancies and no jobs

Having been an employer myself, I know all about the additional costs of employment over and above the actual net wages paid to the employee and the costs of administration etc.
You do realise the various incnetives being paid to employers at the moment in the form of job subsidies, dont you ?
And I agree that a company's responsibility is to make profits for its shareholders and this is why so many over recent years have decided that Ireland's low tax rate offers no incentive at all to stay in ireland and have moved production, lock stock and barrell, overseas. Which rather makes some of your arguements regarding low rates irrelevant. And no a lower minimum wage would not have made a blind bit of difference to the aforementioned companies - which you would know if you were as knowledgable about the subject as you are affecting to be.

anymore

SLUSK wrote: »

Government should not interfer with voluntary contracts between employer and employee. Lower wages would be good for you since the minimum wage is ridiculously high. Sweden which is known to be a so called socialist country does not have any minimum wage laws. Here the "minimum wage" is set in agreement between companies and the unions.

Companies were all too happy to have interference in contracts when it led to keeping wages down as in the various national wage agreements. It was a case of forget about the free markets and letting wages settle at thier natural level.

ei.sdraob

anymore wrote: »

Having been an employer myself, I know all about the additional costs of employment over and above the actual net wages paid to the employee and the costs of administration etc.
You do realise the various incnetives being paid to employers at the moment in the form of job subsidies, dont you ?
And I agree that a company's responsibility is to make profits for its shareholders and this is why so many over recent years have decided that Ireland's low tax rate offers no incentive at all to stay in ireland and have moved production, lock stock and barrell, overseas. Which rather makes some of your arguements regarding low rates irrelevant. And no a lower minimum wage would not have made a blind bit of difference to the aforementioned companies - which you would know if you were as knowledgable about the subject as you are affecting to be.

if these profits are taxed more then most of these companies will move were they are taxed less, theres no shortage nowadays of locations with english speaking well educated people willing to work, it aint the 80s anymore and ireland is highly uncompetitive now for many reasons, with wages being one of these reasons

as an employer i am knowledgeable about the subject, unfortunately i decided to take a risk and go into private sector and not take on a cushy ps job (hindsight )

right now i have and idea on how to expand business, and i can create several jobs that wont require training, since the main cost will be employee wage then unfortunately at 8.65/hour it wont be profitable to create these jobs, so the idea is put on shelf

so you see the high min wage is preventing jobs from being created and businesses from pursuing ideas, im sure there are many other situations like that with jobs either not being created or worse being created in other countries like our neighbouring UK

anymore

ei.sdraob wrote: »

.
if your suggestion of increasing the corporation tax to 20 to 40% in line with income taxes is carried out, then overnight majority of businesses in this country become unprofitable as thats another large cost, unprofitable businesses close, that leads to redundancies and no jobs

P.s read what I actually wrote :
I am all for lowering the minimum wage as long as Corporate Tax rates are raised to the same levels as payable by PAYE workers.
My preference is to allow the tax and minimum wage levels to remain the same .

ei.sdraob

anymore wrote: »

P.s read what I actually wrote :
I am all for lowering the minimum wage as long as Corporate Tax rates are raised to the same levels as payable by PAYE workers.
My preference is to allow the tax and minimum wage levels to remain the same .

how does

"lowering the minimum wage as long as Corporate Tax rates are raised to the same levels as payable by PAYE workers" == "My preference is to allow the tax and minimum wage levels to remain the same"

your tripping over yourself now mate

dan_d

ARE they lowering the minimum wage, or are they simply making it legal to agree with your employer that you'll take some sort of a wage cut to avoid losing your job, which many people have already done?
I know that opens a door for many employers to cut wages using this claim. But right at this point in time, I get the impression that the way this story is being reported is very misleading.

anymore

ei.sdraob wrote: »

if these profits are taxed more then most of these companies will move were they are taxed less, theres no shortage nowadays of locations with english speaking well educated people willing to work, it aint the 80s anymore and ireland is highly uncompetitive now

as an employer i am knowledgeable about the subject, unfortunately i decided to take a risk and go into private sector not take on a cushy ps job

right now i have and idea on how to expand business, and i can create several jobs that wont require training, since the main cost will be employee wage then unfortunately at 8.65/hour it wont be profitable to create these jobs, so the idea is put on shelf

so you see the high min wage is preventing jobs from being created and businesses from pursuing ideas, im sure there are many other situations like that with jobs either not being created or worse being created in other countries like our neighbouring UK

The fact that the irish public service is over paid and utterly underproductive should not impinge on the minimum wage debate - there are few PS workers paid at only the minimum wage rate. In fact there are what would be regarded as low skill workers in the PS who, after their annual increments are paid, are actually paid more than some professionals in the private sector.

However I am afraid i am less sympathetic to your " I have a great idea but the minimum wage makes it non viable '. If you are inefficient, dont blame it on your would be workers. if you want to pay sweat shop wages, move to a sweat shop economy - mind you, you probably wouldn't last too long in that environment.

anymore

ei.sdraob wrote: »

how does

"lowering the minimum wage as long as Corporate Tax rates are raised to the same levels as payable by PAYE workers" == "My preference is to allow the tax and minimum wage levels to remain the same"

your tripping over yourself now mate

Do you understand the expression ' maintain the status quo ' ?