Govt considering lowering minimum wage

ei.sdraob

Fred83 wrote: »

well,we have loads of people with their degrees and dipolmas these days,but theres not enough work for them either..

these are people trained for the "top of pyramid" type jobs

if theres no jobs being created at the bottom of the pyramid, how is the top meant to grow

sorry for my use of the word pyramid, job/skills lader could be another word

PomBear

I thought FF were meanta give fair budgeting :rolleyes:

Another attack on people on the working class. Well done FF. They don't seem to realise this is a drop in the ocean compared to the rich who evade tax

rightwingdub

The minimum wage has to be cut, needs to be cut to €6.50 per hour. Thousands of jobs have been lost already quite simply because the minimum wage is far too high in this country, more jobs will be created if the minimum wage is cut and existing jobs are more likely to be safeguarded.

Personally, I don't think the legislation goes far enough as It provides cits to the minimum wage in cases of "inability to pay" clauses.

ei.sdraob

irishh_bob wrote: »

a high percentage of eastern europeans in my experience do indeed send much of thier wages home to poland or wherever , they also live a minimalist lifestyle , ten to a house and drinking at home , most of them are not earning enough to be in the tax net either so in reality , they contribute very little to the economy

but the companies they work for do have to pay all sorts of taxes

thats better than no taxes if these jobs didnt exist

anymore

A letter from SIPTU in todays Irish Times is relevant -

Madam, – Your Dáil report on the minimum wage (Home News, January 27th) carries the sub-heading: “Gilmore calls on Government to ‘come off the fence’ and assure there will be no cut”. A timely call, in view of the ongoing Government spin on such cuts.
But why is there no all-party unity to find even the suggestion of such a cut totally reprehensible? Why, following the self-destruction of the PD party, do we now have a Fianna Fáil-Green-exPD Coalition Government hell bent on outdoing any assault on the threshold of decency that the PDs might have been accused of in their heyday? Indeed, it was the then tánaiste and PD leader Mary Harney who introduced the minimum wage. True, she did not take on board the recommendation of the Government-appointed Minimum Wage Commission that such a rate should be set at two-thirds of median earnings. Had this happened, a rate of between €10.30 and €10.80 an hour should have been set in July 2007.
The rate set, €8.65, did no more than ensure that the value of the minimum wage first introduced in April 2000 was brought into line with average earnings increases occurring since then. Had Ms Harney’s original criteria continued to prevail, that rate should have been raised to €9.06 in July 2009.
The minimum wage, however, remained frozen at its July 2007 level, while another of Ms Harney’s original set of minimum wage principles was shamelessly violated in the interim. In 2001 the then PD tánaiste rightly proclaimed it was inappropriate to hit those on the minimum wage with any income tax on such meagre earnings. Nonetheless, as a result of last May’s income levy measures, the Fianna Fáil-Green- Harney Government has already cut the living standards of minimum wage earners by 2 per cent, leaving them with take-home pay of no more than €8.48 an hour. Any suggestion to hit the lowest of low paid workers with even more cuts should therefore be greeted with universal outrage no less than healthy contempt. – Yours, etc,
MANUS O’RIORDAN,
Head of Research,
Siptu,
Liberty Hall, Dublin 1.

anymore

rightwingdub wrote: »

The minimum wage has to be cut, needs to be cut to €6.50 per hour. Thousands of jobs have been lost already quite simply because the minimum wage is far too high in this country, more jobs will be created if the minimum wage is cut and existing jobs are more likely to be safeguarded.

Personally, I don't think the legislation goes far enough as It provides cits to the minimum wage in cases of "inability to pay" clauses.

Are you seriousily saying an adult can live on € 260 a week ?
Again you and the Min Wage cutters refuse to engage with the fact that people on this level of wages will have to be supported by the Social Welfare System. This means that the tax payer is not actually paying the full cost of employment but is transferring a lrge part of the cost to the taxpayer. Companies paying 12.5 % Corporate Tax are not paying proportionately for this subsidisation.

anymore

ei.sdraob wrote: »

these are people trained for the "top of pyramid" type jobs

if theres no jobs being created at the bottom of the pyramid, how is the top meant to grow

sorry for my use of the word pyramid, job/skills lader could be another word

Again your disregard for facts is noteworthy ; the majority of degree holders tend to hold middle rank jobs not high ranking jobs. Even in Institutes of technologies, if you are hoping for a permanent lecturing position, forget about a degree, a masters will be required. here I am quoting a long term staff member of an IT.
In fact technology has removed the need for or significantly reduced the need for many of the traditional bottom of the pyrmaid jobs e.g ' typing pools, as such no longer exist. Potatoe picking no longer needs great armies of pickers but rely on much smaller numbers combined with machinery. Even road sweeping now relies on the use of increasing numbers of machines.

Sleepy

anymore wrote: »

Are you seriousily saying an adult can live on € 260 a week ?
Again you and the Min Wage cutters refuse to engage with the fact that people on this level of wages will have to be supported by the Social Welfare System. This means that the tax payer is not actually paying the full cost of employment but is transferring a lrge part of the cost to the taxpayer. Companies paying 12.5 % Corporate Tax are not paying proportionately for this subsidisation.

Yes.

An adult can live on €260 a week.

j4vier

i'd be wary of lowering the min wage of people to 260e a week for the following reasons

1 : its very close to the actual dole, chances are people will prefer to be on the dole than work their ass off for 60e a week, which will include trasportation costs etc

there should be incentives to get ppl off the dole , not the other way round

2 cost of living is lowering , but is not low enough to justify bein on that amount of money

3 i agree an adult can live on 260e a week, but that adult will have no life, no family no nothing
agreed the dole is low, but that is meant to be a temporary thing

4 if its an employer's market now, i cant imagine when they can get people to do all sorts of jobs for even less money

just my point of view

anymore

Sleepy wrote: »

Yes.

An adult can live on €260 a week.

An adult can exist on € 260 a week, not 'live' in any manner other than bare subsistence. Then again, for many of the employers anxious to reduce the minimum wage, it is questionable if they regard ' minnimum wage workers as fully human, more like cheap assets to be exploited.

rightwingdub

anymore wrote: »

Are you seriousily saying an adult can live on € 260 a week ?
Again you and the Min Wage cutters refuse to engage with the fact that people on this level of wages will have to be supported by the Social Welfare System. This means that the tax payer is not actually paying the full cost of employment but is transferring a lrge part of the cost to the taxpayer. Companies paying 12.5 % Corporate Tax are not paying proportionately for this subsidisation.

What percentage of people working are on the minimum wage, I doubt whether it is more than 6% of the labour force, cut the dole as well, make it more attractive for people to work in modestly paid jobs.

I have one question, are more jobs likely to be created if the minimum wage is €6.50 per hour or at the current level of €8.65 per hour? I think anyone with a basic understanding of business knows the answer to that question.

Shea O'Meara

rightwingdub wrote: »

I have one question, are more jobs likely to be created if the minimum wage is €6.50 per hour or at the current level of €8.65 per hour? I think anyone with a basic understanding of business knows the answer to that question.

How about we cut your wages to 6.50 an hour? I assume you'd be okay with that.
Here's where your right wing view falls in on itself; you want everyone to be on the same low wage income to help our economy.....how very Socialist of you:D Oh, wait, but only the already poor and those in dead end low paying jobs...sorry you are indeed right wing.
I'm no economist, but the higher the salary the higher the tax paid? Oh, again I keep forgetting, that doesn't apply if you really make a lot of money.
What's the point in lowering the minimum to create jobs people can't afford to take?

anymore

If you are right about the 6%, then it only underlines how pointless it is to be focussing on cutting the minimum wage. In any developed country, the least effective use of scarce resources is in creating bottom of the pile low skill jobs. A long list of multi national companies in the retail and services have been able to establish themselves profitably in Ireland despite the disadvantages of our so called high minimum wage. Which suggests it is the inefficient Irish businesses or those selling the wrong product or service or selling them badly who are anxious to have the minimum wage reduced to compensate for their inefficiencies. Instead of cutting the minimum wages, lets just let the inefficient businneses go the wall. Other companies will fill the place and provide the jobs when the bad businneses gp to the wall.

sceptre

Where's the 6% figure from. Is there a link that I missed that mentions 6%?

97i9y3941

looks like terrible and aggressive cuts are coming into play

http://www.leinsterleader.ie/news/Ninety-jobs-go-at-Naas.6026924.jp

NINETY jobs have been lost at a Naas-based meat processing concern. The decision follows a "strategic" review of operations at the QK Meats Ltd. plant at The Maudlins, off the Dublin Road.
According to the company the viability of stand-alone boning hall operations in Ireland has been adversely affected by the recession. The company also cited the high costs of manufacturing in Ireland and the weakness of sterling as factors which influenced the decision.

The company also said that a number of those affected have already been re-deployed to other operations within the company. However Adrian Kane of the trade union SIPTU said opportuniteis for transfer to other operations are limited. He also said staff had resisted a 50% pay cut.

Shea O'Meara

It's the different rules for different sections of society that gets me.
The argument is a lower minimum wage will help the economy, create jobs. The reason given is companies can't afford to maintain or increase staff due to the high cost of the current wage.
Soft target I know, but why didn't this logic apply to the banks? The argument for saving the banks can be made for any business. If you've a small business employing less than 100 staff, which is going to the wall, but they can argue they just need breathing room and when the economy picks up they'll be self sufficient again. Why not bail them out too? Why is cutting minimum wage the first thought of some people? Why when they banks looked like folding did we not say, make yourself more competitive, cut salaries?
We need a minimum wage simply because there are scumbags out there that would pay a grown man with a family 2 euros an hour if they thought they could get away with it. This will be great for the boardroom, but create poverty like we've not seen in modern times.

donkey balls

Shea it has been going on within the transport industry for years companies taking advantage of foreign nationals, i know of one company paying their drivers 380e a week to drive a 40ft and on average they would work 10-12hrs a day with no o/t(that works out less than the min wage)

Tesco have outsourced their transport to another company were that company is paying drivers the min wage.(fuel&drivers wage are the biggest cost factor in distribution)

so have tesco passed on the savings to the customer? what do you think ,bottom line is pay&treat your staff like crap and they wont give a toss about the job.
i worked for a large bluechip company whose motto was PSP(people service profit)whcih basicly is treat your staff well they will provide a good service which creates profit.

97i9y3941

yes,but once again its the most vunerable getting screwed again,looking at public sector or some "pay freeze"they are guarantteed their jobs and the have the unions etc to put the fear of gov into goverment,why dont the ministers do an experiment and live off 200 a week to see what the ordinary people go through,its the usual buracracy sh#te we have..

then theres this on going of outsourceing everything,i think the gov are quiet happy to let the irish people sit on the dole,patrotic my b#llocks

97i9y3941

donkey balls wrote: »

Tesco have outsourced their transport to another company were that company is paying drivers the min wage.(fuel&drivers wage are the biggest cost factor in distribution)

dunnes did the same didnt they?,whelans looked after them for years then dunnes switched,leaving alot of whelan people out of work..

donkey balls

Fred83 wrote: »

dunnes did the same didnt they?,whelans looked after them for years then dunnes switched,leaving alot of whelan people out of work..

when the contract between dunnes&whelans finished the staff that looked after the drapery logistics where taking over by wincanton.
some of the staff working in the frozen&chill section went to allied foods then around 2008 the transport staff in the drapery section lost there jobs but they were not working for the min wage.

the govt are pitting the PS against the private sector with there spin(divide&conquer)i was made redundant but i dont hold it against the PS workers that have a job i choose to work in the private sector,and people have got to remember that the frontline staff in the PS are not earning vast amount of money that the govt would have you believe

anymore

donkey balls wrote: »

when the contract between dunnes&whelans finished the staff that looked after the drapery logistics where taking over by wincanton.
some of the staff working in the frozen&chill section went to allied foods then around 2008 the transport staff in the drapery section lost there jobs but they were not working for the min wage.

the govt are pitting the PS against the private sector with there spin(divide&conquer)i was made redundant but i dont hold it against the PS workers that have a job i choose to work in the private sector,and people have got to remember that the frontline staff in the PS are not earning vast amount of money that the govt would have you believe

Loath though I am to defend the Government, I dont the Government are trying to say that the PS front line staff are earning a vast amount of money. But it is a reality that benchmarking has resulted in a big disparity between what PS staff are earning in comparision to the private sector. Some of the papers that were used in the benchmarking were delibrately destroyed so there is no full record of the basis for benchmarking. There are areas in the PS where productivity is significantly lower than in the Private sector. And private sector workers at the front line, at the minimum wage level, do not have defined benefit pension schemes. There seesm to be a reluctance or even fear to compare like with like at the lower levels.

djpbarry

anymore wrote: »

An adult can exist on € 260 a week, not 'live' in any manner other than bare subsistence.

You’re kidding, right? If ever a sign was needed that this country has been awash with money for the last few years...

So what would consider to be a reasonable “minimum” weekly income?

anymore

djpbarry wrote: »

You’re kidding, right? If ever a sign was needed that this country has been awash with money for the last few years...

So what would consider to be a reasonable “minimum” weekly income?

I'm sorry, I dont actually understand your post !
Are you saying € 260 is a reasonable minimum wage or it is not ?

djpbarry

anymore wrote: »

I'm sorry, I dont actually understand your post !
Are you saying € 260 is a reasonable minimum wage or it is not ?

I’m not suggesting that the minimum wage should be reduced to this level – I’m pretty ambivalent toward the “lowering the minimum wage” argument. However, I'm surprised that people consider a sum of €260 to be too little to support an individual over the course of a week. It’s come up a few times on this forum over the last year or so and I think some people are grossly over-stating how much it costs to support an individual in this country.

So, what would you consider to be the minimum sum necessary to support an adult for seven days? Take the minimum standard of living to be whatever you like; e.g. a weekly visit to the cinema, visit to the pub, etc.

anymore

djpbarry wrote: »

I’m not suggesting that the minimum wage should be reduced to this level – I’m pretty ambivalent toward the “lowering the minimum wage” argument. However, I'm surprised that people consider a sum of €260 to be too little to support an individual over the course of a week. It’s come up a few times on this forum over the last year or so and I think some people are grossly over-stating how much it costs to support an individual in this country.

So, what would you consider to be the minimum sum necessary to support an adult for seven days? Take the minimum standard of living to be whatever you like; e.g. a weekly visit to the cinema, visit to the pub, etc.

I could ' live 'on € 50 for a week and have done so. But the question of what a person could ' live' on for a 'week' isn't particularily relevant or indeed helpful when discussing the wages a person, an adult, needs to be paid to have any kind of standard of living on an ongoing basis. Occassionaly in the UK, you have had Tory MPs going to live on something like minimum wages and it has usually ended up making looking silly.
Nobody discussses the salary of executives in terms of thoer weekly pay; it is always an annual sum. I dont see why people on the lower end of the wage scales should be reduced to seeing how little they can survive on for a given week !

97i9y3941

primetime did a good piece on the min wage last night,siptu members rightly pointed out like as i said,if this rule is brought in for a company who says they cant afford to pay min wage it will be exploited to the last..

djpbarry

anymore wrote: »

I could ' live 'on € 50 for a week and have done so. But the question of what a person could ' live' on for a 'week' isn't particularily relevant or indeed helpful when discussing the wages a person, an adult, needs to be paid to have any kind of standard of living on an ongoing basis.

You stated that an individual could not live on €260 per week – I was merely seeking clarification.

anymore

djpbarry wrote: »

You stated that an individual could not live on €260 per week – I was merely seeking clarification.

For the record, where did I state " that an individual could not live on € 260 a week ".
.

djpbarry

anymore wrote: »

For the record, where did I state " that an individual could not live on € 260 a week ".
.

I really don't want to get into arguing semantics. You stated that, essentially, an adult could 'get by' on 260 per week (not your exact words), right? I am saying that (speaking from experience) an adult (depending on their circumstances, of course) can manage fairly well on that sum of money, in my opinion. But of course, my opinion is based on what I consider to be a reasonable standard of living. Others may differ - maybe I have modest expectations!

anymore

djpbarry wrote: »

I really don't want to get into arguing semantics. You stated that, essentially, an adult could 'get by' on 260 per week (not your exact words), right? I am saying that (speaking from experience) an adult (depending on their circumstances, of course) can manage fairly well on that sum of money, in my opinion. But of course, my opinion is based on what I consider to be a reasonable standard of living. Others may differ - maybe I have modest expectations!

The whole thrust of my arguement is that an adult can't have a decent quality of life on € 260 a week in a high cost economy such as Ireland.
I dont know of any adults who can live on € 260 a week on a long term basis without subsidy or intervention of one kind or another from State Agency. And that, to relate my comments to the subject of the thread, is why I contend, that as the minimum wage is lowered by companies, the amount of subsidy required for a person to live on a minimum wage, bearing in mind all of the expenditures required to live including health etc, increases and is paid for by the general taxpayer.