Govt considering lowering minimum wage

djpbarry

anymore wrote: »

The whole thrust of my arguement is that an adult can't have a decent quality of life on € 260 a week in a high cost economy such as Ireland.

That's the sticking point - we obviously differ on what constitutes a decent quality of life.

Shea O'Meara

Yes, but some people get a feel good factor from sticking it to someone, anyone when they feel hard done by. Now if only that translated into the voting booth.

anymore

djpbarry wrote: »

That's the sticking point - we obviously differ on what constitutes a decent quality of life.

Let me tell you, if you are paying € 100 rent a week, say € 30/40 a week on work related expenses ( transport etc), then you are not going to have much of a life, unless you are young and carefree and know it is only temporary.

anymore

djpbarry wrote: »

That's the sticking point - we obviously differ on what constitutes a decent quality of life.

Now djp, as you are relying on your experiences of living on low income( I think anyway) then would it be fair to say that a lot of this experience was gained whilst in ' digs' during student days or perhaps in the early days of your career as a scientist ?
I am kind of assuming you are not on minimum wage now ?

djpbarry

anymore wrote: »

Let me tell you, if you are paying € 100 rent a week, say € 30/40 a week on work related expenses ( transport etc)...

Ok, let’s say €130 per week for bills and rent, another €40 for food and €30/40 for transport (although 40 is pushing it) – that still leaves €50/60 for whatever you’re having yourself. Sorry, I’m not being disingenuous here, but I cannot understand how that cannot be considered a decent standard of living. It’s certainly not luxury, but it’s not exactly on the breadline either.

anymore wrote: »

Now djp, as you are relying on your experiences of living on low income( I think anyway) then would it be fair to say that a lot of this experience was gained whilst in ' digs' during student days...

Nope.

anymore wrote: »

...or perhaps in the early days of your career as a scientist ?

Bit closer (‘early days’ doesn’t quite cover it), although I fail to see how that invalidates my position? Would it not be fair to say that (generally speaking) most people are on low income in the early stages of their careers before working their way upward?

97i9y3941

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/union-launches-campaign-against-lowering-minimum-wage-445647.html

The country's largest union has today launched a camping of opposition to any efforts to cut the minimum wage.

SIPTU says it must protect the income of the lowest-paid workers.

The minimum wage is currently €8.65 an hour and the Government is proposing that employers should have an option to plead an inability to pay the full rate which is set down in statute.

siptu stepping in to speak up for the ordinary worker.

djpbarry

Fred83 wrote: »

siptu stepping in to speak up for the ordinary worker.

Who are these "ordinary workers" that SIPTU are speaking for?

Laminations

djpbarry wrote: »

Ok, let’s say €130 per week for bills and rent, another €40 for food and €30/40 for transport (although 40 is pushing it) – that still leaves €50/60 for whatever you’re having yourself. Sorry, I’m not being disingenuous here, but I cannot understand how that cannot be considered a decent standard of living. It’s certainly not luxury, but it’s not exactly on the breadline either.
Nope.
Bit closer (‘early days’ doesn’t quite cover it), although I fail to see how that invalidates my position? Would it not be fair to say that (generally speaking) most people are on low income in the early stages of their careers before working their way upward?

What about emergencies? Is €40 on food for a week realistic? Can you remember the Des Bishop experiment of trying to live on the minimum wage? Have you watched the many shows about politicians attempting to live on low wages?

As for working your way upwards, some people, through no lack of ambition or hard work will never become an accountant or scientist or anything that is well paid. Some people just may not have the ability to do anything more than menial jobs. And just because someone is on the minimum wage doesn't mean they aren't working their asses off, there are plenty of minimum wage jobs that I'd just never want to do.

If a company has an inability to pay, look at the top people first and work your way down.

railwaylad

i have been on the dole recently put there like thousands of outher irish people by foreign workers. the rate per hour will be cut and if you dont like it theres thousands of east europeen that will gladly take your job weather it be skiled or unskiled jobs, some of you are living in a box with no idea whats going on outside, some of you like me will have to face financial & emotional disaster with the humilating nose rubbing fact that your job is been done by someone (contractor)that was'ent even in ireland for the job interview... in "MY OPINION" things are returning to pre famine days where you work to live and a handfull of people have all the wealth.

Eliot Rosewater

railwaylad wrote: »

i have been on the dole recently put there like thousands of outher irish people by foreign workers.

Please expand that. What did the foreign workers do to put you on the dole? And more importantly, what enabled them to do it?

And thirdly, if you're really in the mood for a debate, why do you think Irish workers should be entitled to an advantage over foreign labor?

djpbarry

Laminations wrote: »

What about emergencies?

What about them? What sort of ‘emergencies’ are you referring to?

Laminations wrote: »

Is €40 on food for a week realistic?

For one person? I think so. Push it up to €50 if you want and take €10 off the weekly ‘transport bill’.

Laminations wrote: »

Can you remember the Des Bishop experiment of trying to live on the minimum wage? Have you watched the many shows about politicians attempting to live on low wages?

Nope.

Laminations wrote: »

As for working your way upwards, some people, through no lack of ambition or hard work will never become an accountant or scientist or anything that is well paid.

I’m well aware of that, but how many people are stuck on the minimum wage throughout their lives? What demographic is earning the minimum wage? If I were to hazard a guess, I would say predominantly teenagers and early twenty-somethings.

railwaylad

Eliot Rosewater wrote: »

Please expand that. What did the foreign workers do to put you on the dole? And more importantly, what enabled them to do it?

And thirdly, if you're really in the mood for a debate, why do you think Irish workers should be entitled to an advantage over foreign labor?

i welcome your reply,, the EU is looking over our shoulder and going tut, tut, tut, if we had a cap on foreign workers at the start of the crunch hundreds of thousands of irish workers would not be on the dole, business would still be making money and our country would be in the green, in "MY OPINION" 80% of low paid east europeen people have no intension of ever staying here and dont bother with the language or bring their familys over and have very little input in our economy..we should do like the germans and put our country first and EU secound after all if we go bang we can not hop on a ryan air flight and go home with our savings..

anymore

djpbarry wrote: »

Ok, let’s say €130 per week for bills and rent, another €40 for food and €30/40 for transport (although 40 is pushing it) – that still leaves €50/60 for whatever you’re having yourself. Sorry, I’m not being disingenuous here, but I cannot understand how that cannot be considered a decent standard of living. It’s certainly not luxury, but it’s not exactly on the breadline either.
Nope.
Bit closer (‘early days’ doesn’t quite cover it), although I fail to see how that invalidates my position? Would it not be fair to say that (generally speaking) most people are on low income in the early stages of their careers before working their way upward?

A young man or woman sharing accomodation and expenses in thier early post college years is not at all equivalent to an adult, and I do stress adult, living on a minimum wage permanently or on the long term. Frankly, if this is not immediately apparent to anybody who has the benefit of a 3rd level education, then I question the value of 3 rd level education. Mind you I am sure there are many undergraduates who would recognise what I am saying. If you think € 40 a week is sufficient for food, then I wonder what your version of a balanced diet is.
Your comment about most people being on a low income in the early stage of their career is quite irrelevant to the topic of the thread.

djpbarry

railwaylad wrote: »

...if we had a cap on foreign workers at the start of the crunch hundreds of thousands of irish workers would not be on the dole, business would still be making money and our country would be in the green...

Prove it.

railwaylad wrote: »

...in "MY OPINION" 80% of low paid east europeen people have no intension of ever staying here and dont bother with the language or bring their familys over and have very little input in our economy...

In my opinion, 95% of your post is baseless nonsense.

djpbarry

anymore wrote: »

A young man or woman sharing accomodation and expenses in thier early post college years is not at all equivalent to an adult, and I do stress adult, living on a minimum wage permanently or on the long term.

You’re aware that there are plenty of adults in this country “sharing” accommodation and expenditure (i.e. bills)?

I don’t often feel the need to discuss my personal circumstances on this website – but I think it might help in this instance to illustrate a point. I have been living on considerably less than the minimum wage for over four years now and while it certainly hasn’t been luxury, it hasn’t been Dickensian either. The only principle weekly out-going is about €120 for rent & bills (average over 4 years). I don’t have any transport costs as I walk/cycle to work. So, if, for example, my weekly income was €260, that would leave €140 for food and whatever else. Save 10% of income per week for a rainy day and another €15 on health insurance (if you want to be extra careful – came in handy in my case) and we’re still left with €100.

Is it really that hard to imagine that an individual could have a decent quality of life on that level of income?

anymore wrote: »

If you think € 40 a week is sufficient for food, then I wonder what your version of a balanced diet is.

And I would wonder where you’re doing your shopping if you consider it to be insufficient. As I said earlier, we obviously have very different ideas of what constitutes a decent quality of life.

anymore wrote: »

Your comment about most people being on a low income in the early stage of their career is quite irrelevant to the topic of the thread.

Why? Would it not be fair to say that the majority of those earning the minimum wage are relatively young with relatively few responsibilities (I’m open to correction)?

Laminations

When we talk about minimum standards of living we are talking about the dole. If you wanna reduce minimum wage you need to reduce dole. Dole currently is around €200 a week, it is difficult to see how this amount could be lowered while maintaining a basic level of living.

So you want to reduce minimum wage to what level? what weekly income will someone bring home after 40+ hours work? €260?

irishh_bob

railwaylad wrote: »

i welcome your reply,, the EU is looking over our shoulder and going tut, tut, tut, if we had a cap on foreign workers at the start of the crunch hundreds of thousands of irish workers would not be on the dole, business would still be making money and our country would be in the green, in "MY OPINION" 80% of low paid east europeen people have no intension of ever staying here and dont bother with the language or bring their familys over and have very little input in our economy..we should do like the germans and put our country first and EU secound after all if we go bang we can not hop on a ryan air flight and go home with our savings..

my experience too , in rural ireland , its common knowledge that the majority of eastern european single men send most of thier wages back home and live ten to a 2 bed flat , they more or less live on fresh air if you exclude what they spend in the local eastern european food outlet , add to that the fact that most would not be earning enough to be even in the tax net and you have a very small benefit to the irish economy

Red_Marauder

irishh_bob wrote: »

my experience too , in rural ireland , its common knowledge that the majority of eastern european single men send most of thier wages back home and live ten to a 2 bed flat , they more or less live on fresh air if you exclude what they spend in the local eastern european food outlet , add to that the fact that most would not be earning enough to be even in the tax net and you have a very small benefit to the irish economy

considering how much Irish people are depositing in our savings accounts in case of redundancy or further economic downturn, you could probably say the same for all of us.
Like many of my friends who live in a family home either in Dublin or down country, being nevertheless fully employed, I personally contribute little or nothing of significance to the Irish economy. I might as well be sending my money to Gdansk as into my savings. I'm sure many of us would say the same.

djpbarry

irishh_bob wrote: »

my experience too , in rural ireland , its common knowledge that the majority of eastern european single men send most of thier wages back home and live ten to a 2 bed flat , they more or less live on fresh air if you exclude what they spend in the local eastern european food outlet , add to that the fact that most would not be earning enough to be even in the tax net and you have a very small benefit to the irish economy

In rural Ireland, it’s common knowledge that the majority of single Irish men spend most of their wages in bars and pubs and live with their parents. They more or less live on fresh air if you exclude what they spend in the local Italian take-away. Add to that the fact that most will probably end up costing the state a fortune in liver transplants and cardiac by-passes and you have a very small net benefit to the Irish economy.

irishh_bob

djpbarry wrote: »

In rural Ireland, it’s common knowledge that the majority of single Irish men spend most of their wages in bars and pubs and live with their parents. They more or less live on fresh air if you exclude what they spend in the local Italian take-away. Add to that the fact that most will probably end up costing the state a fortune in liver transplants and cardiac by-passes and you have a very small net benefit to the Irish economy.

altogether spurious comparrison

djpbarry

irishh_bob wrote: »

altogether spurious comparrison

Not really - they're both ridiculously stereotypical descriptions.

railwaylad

although not always in the papers this has been a regular thing over the past fue years, a company making money with happy employees, and then decide to kick them out and get in contractors ( who mostly employ foreigh workers) the price of a can of coke did not drop,some of these high earning guys could have been paying 200 p/w in wage tax and are now receiving 200 p/w from the state purse ( YOU ).
.
that is not good for the irish enconomy,irish government,irish tax payer, it is good for the employer.http://www.socialistparty.net/index.php/news/workplace/242-coca-cola-workers-in-battle-to-save-job.html

railwaylad

to lower the minimum rate is not good for the irish people or the economy to do this is taking money from the MANY and giving it to the FUE....if people have money they will spent it... thats an economy,,

railwaylad

the EU is threatening ireland with its jack booth to get our economy in order, this is the same EU that part financed the building of the new dell premises in east europe a company that was making lots of money in ireland and is now making more money after it kick the irish workers on the dole.. we should not be talking wage/dole cuts there is lots of work in our country we need to get irish people into irish jobs (like what the germans are doing)

anymore

djpbarry wrote: »

You’re aware that there are plenty of adults in this country “sharing” accommodation and expenditure (i.e. bills)?

I don’t often feel the need to discuss my personal circumstances on this website – but I think it might help in this instance to illustrate a point. I have been living on considerably less than the minimum wage for over four years now and while it certainly hasn’t been luxury, it hasn’t been Dickensian either. The only principle weekly out-going is about €120 for rent & bills (average over 4 years). I don’t have any transport costs as I walk/cycle to work. So, if, for example, my weekly income was €260, that would leave €140 for food and whatever else. Save 10% of income per week for a rainy day and another €15 on health insurance (if you want to be extra careful – came in handy in my case) and we’re still left with €100.

Is it really that hard to imagine that an individual could have a decent quality of life on that level of income?
And I would wonder where you’re doing your shopping if you consider it to be insufficient. As I said earlier, we obviously have very different ideas of what constitutes a decent quality of life.
Why? Would it not be fair to say that the majority of those earning the minimum wage are relatively young with relatively few responsibilities (I’m open to correction)?

Well if you are in paid employment for four years, then i am not sure how you have been living on less than minimum wage for four years.??????
It is firly clear that you are not in the same category as the average minimum wage earner and I am not sure how your experiences are relevant to the discussion.

djpbarry

anymore wrote: »

Well if you are in paid employment for four years, then i am not sure how you have been living on less than minimum wage for four years.??????

I thought we established that I’m in the early days (read “years”) of a certain sort of career? But that’s not terribly important. The question is…

anymore wrote: »

It is firly clear that you are not in the same category as the average minimum wage earner…

…what is “an average minimum wage earner”? How do you know their circumstances (i.e. lifestyle) are all that different to mine?

anymore wrote: »

…and I am not sure how your experiences are relevant to the discussion.

I brought up my own experiences to illustrate a point – to put some numbers on the argument. My point is as follows: if we assume that the typical minimum wage earner is a young adult with no dependents (and I stand to be corrected on that), then unless they are spending a colossal amount on rent, bills and food, they are going to be coming out with a fair bit of disposable income.

Is that not a fair point?

dave ireland

dont lower the minimum wage, a 6 year old child could tell you the reason why our business are not doing very well is because irish people have little money now to spend in them, cut the rate and you give them even less money, fight back email your politician and tell them irish jobs for irish people or no vote (like what outher nationality are doing in their country)

"dont change your politician get your politician to change"

Red_Marauder

dave ireland wrote: »

dont lower the minimum wage, a 6 year old child could tell you the reason why our business are not doing very well is because irish people have little money now to spend in them

Then perhaps one shouldn't be consulting the six year old on fiscal policy, because...

the latest Postbank quarterly savings index, which revealed that more than 80 per cent of those surveyed were now saving on a regular or lump-sum basis. Most of these savings were for emergency funds. Savings are expected to remain high over the coming year, with the Economic and Social Research Institute predicting that people will save about 13 per cent of their income next year, the highest level since 1978.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/finance/2009/1127/1224259538472.html

It's not the lack of money in the country, it's low spending made worse by unreasonable operational costs and the cost of wages.

, cut the rate and you give them even less money

Cut the rate and you cut inflation (as has already been discussed in this thread).

The consumer can receive more bang for his buck, and the employer isn't crippled with extortionate minimum wage laws.

It's not rocket science.

dave ireland

good point (red) i agree with you on the savings thing''
the money is there the jobs are there the infrastructur is there the education/skill/experience its all there just not in right place we need to be pluging the holes in our ship and not running into life boats,
.
i disagree with the lowering of the min rate the economy did well in the boom cus people had money to spend,
with less money we will just cut out on our shopping,cloths,cable tv,phone,meals,petrol,new cars,,diy,home improvments,garden centre,hobbies,esb bills,gas bills,ext ext, and after all the employer may just keep the savings for himself in case he is ever made redunted
.
"dont change your politician get your politican to change"

imitation

I think the best solution is to freeze the minimum wage really, while its quite high in comparison to other countries, its just not possible to say all prices have dropped uniformly, what happens if you drive to work ? Petrols gone up, insurance has gone up, food might have gone down somewhat, but I think there are alot of necessity that haven`t gone down. It might be all well and good that hdtvs have gone down 15% and you can stick that in the CPI, but it doesn't mean somebody on the minimum wage can drive one to work or live in it !