Fine Gael's "New Politics" proposals (Sunday Tribune article 24/01/10)

Annasopra

bijapos wrote: »

The country needs 100 (not 161) people in the Dail, working 5 (not 3) days a week on legislation and not on constituency business.

I'm not convinced that's ideal at all, you then have a system where TDs would be so removed from the local issues on the ground that they don't realise how legislation impacts people on the ground, they would be completely abstract debates without taking the needs of their constituents into account

jank

Lots of good ideas there. Maybe not going far enough in the list system but this is Ireland, change is slow. I think the wider public know that government is not working at the moment and only those that like the clinics and like having their td's on their call would object I.E FF types. But these proposals can put a good clear difference to those other parties that others can claim that they are all the same. FF had 70 years to implement changes. Of course it was in their interest not to. A bit of pampering to the public there but at least its a start. The people need to be taken seriously after all isnt it them that are supposed to be the rulers at the end of the day.

Sulmac

bijapos wrote: »

Sounds like a seriously watered down version of what Gormley proposed to the Oireactas committee last week.

Except they've been working on it for over a year and the original story on this was back in January.

I do agree that the 146-STV/15-list system is barely an improvement, but it gives us something to work on - particularly as many people don't necessarily understand how such a system works. As mentioned already, you start it out low because people don't like change! I do think the notion of the 50 STV (8 region)/50 national list Dáil is a great idea though.

The Sunday Tribune article also mentioned local government reform, but there is no mention of it in the Irish Times' article. Hopefully it's still in there...

I view these proposals as a "start", and at least Fine Gael are offering us more in this regard than Fianna Fáil - who (for the most part, the likes of Dempsey excepted) are more than happy to keep the current system going.

Bottle_of_Smoke

bijapos wrote: »

- the introduction of a public petition mechanism for the Dáil.
So they would discuss something? This whole idea needs far more work, eg 100,000 signatures can force a referendum or 50,000 can force a resignation.

No way. There's far more than 50,000 knee jerk reactionists in Ireland. There'd be no stability whatsoever if that went on.

100,000 signatures for a referendum? Also mad. Maybe 2mil signatures it would work but 100,000 would lead to a lot of pointless referendums.

bijapos

Johnnymcg wrote: »

I'm not convinced that's ideal at all, you then have a system where TDs would be so removed from the local issues on the ground that they don't realise how legislation impacts people on the ground, they would be completely abstract debates without taking the needs of their constituents into account

But TD's ARE aware of what the people think, they tend to do whatever lobbyists and other vested interests want anyway. They are well aware from their own party workers what is going on.

No way. There's far more than 50,000 knee jerk reactionists in Ireland. There'd be no stability whatsoever if that went on.

100,000 signatures for a referendum? Also mad. Maybe 2mil signatures it would work but 100,000 would lead to a lot of pointless referendums.

Switzeland needs 100,000, they have 2-3 referendums a year. Ok, maybe thats a bit much, 100,000 was a suggestion. 250,000 would be the absolute max though, you say 2,000,000? Well fyi 1.8 million voted in Lisbon II.

Annasopra

bijapos wrote: »

But TD's ARE aware of what the people think, they tend to do whatever lobbyists and other vested interests want anyway. They are well aware from their own party workers what is going on.
.

That doesn't really address my point. Constituency casework give TDs a good understanding of what is needed by legislation and to completely remove work in the constitutency would in fact make bad legislators

Kiwi_knock

This may be a stupid question but what would be the limits on who could get a Dail seat under the list system/ Will it be open for a candidate who failed to gain a seat in the PR system? And is the list system based nationwide or regional?
Anyway good to see the Seanad might be abolished, no use for it when we have such a strong and independent judiciary.

Manach

For 100,000 people to push a referendum, I think that was in the 1922 constitution.
The Seanad is mentioned in a lot of places in the constituation. Removing it requires more than a cut & paste in that document. If instead the 11(?) senators that the Taoiseach appoints are instead chosen in another manner and it can vote on finance bills, then that would be a reform that is less of a shock to the system.
Offhand I dislike the concept of lists. At least theorical the TDs are responsible directly to the people who voted from them and the people can identify with them, not a party canditate drawn from a list.
Re: Presidental terms, if we re-joined the commenwealth we get the Queen, who might do the job for half-price and no expensive elections needed every 7 years

Annasopra

Kiwi_knock wrote: »

This may be a stupid question but what would be the limits on who could get a Dail seat under the list system/ Will it be open for a candidate who failed to gain a seat in the PR system? And is the list system based nationwide or regional?
Anyway good to see the Seanad might be abolished, no use for it when we have such a strong and independent judiciary.

We don't know the details yet of what FG is proposing, not convinced at all that our judiciary is independent, judges are politically appointed and some are very partisan, Adrian Hardiman being an example that springs to my mind

bijapos

Kiwi_knock wrote: »

This may be a stupid question but what would be the limits on who could get a Dail seat under the list system/ Will it be open for a candidate who failed to gain a seat in the PR system? And is the list system based nationwide or regional?
Anyway good to see the Seanad might be abolished, no use for it when we have such a strong and independent judiciary.

It would only make sense if the list was done on a national basis.

The way it works essentially is anyone who gets elected on the PR system is deemed elected automatically. That person would then be 'removed' from the list and the next in line on the list gets a seat. (not a good explanation)

e.g. Green Party, say their list looks like this

1. Sargent
2. Gormley
3. Ryan
4. Cuffe
5. White
6. Boyle
7. Gogarty
8. De Burca
9. O'Brolchain

Lets say they get 6% of the vote, with 50 list seats available they get 3 seats (Sargent, Gormley, Ryan), but Sargent, Ryan, Gogarty and De Burca have all been elected on the PR system.

This means that Sargents "list" seat goes to the next one on the list (Cuffe) and Ryans seat goes to the next on the list (White).

Hope thats clear.;)

Rebelheart

The Blueshirts wont abolish the Seanad - no matter what they claim they'll do. There are far too many political debts to be paid, and the Seanad settles a proportionately large number of them.

The Seanad should have been abolished years ago - it's an extraordinarily pointless institution. But it has the capacity for giving too many jobs for the boys, and also the ability to neuter political opponents, for it to be done.

One good reason not to vote for Fine Gael: they want to continue spending €100 million of taxpayers' money each and every year subsidising a "private" education system in this state. Where else in Europe does a "private" education system exist which is subsidised by the state transferring such huge resources from the public education system to prop up private institutions? It doesn't exist. Private means private everywhere else.

To hear Brian Hayes justify the current system shows Fine Gael is just as willing to sacrifice principle if it means they will keep their constituents happy, as parasitical as aforesaid constituents clearly are.

jank

Rebelheart wrote: »

The Blueshirts wont abolish the Seanad - no matter what they claim they'll do. There are far too many political debts to be paid, and the Seanad settles a proportionately large number of them.

The Seanad should have been abolished years ago - it's an extraordinarily pointless institution. But it has the capacity for giving too many jobs for the boys, and also the ability to neuter political opponents, for it to be done.

One good reason not to vote for Fine Gael: they want to continue spending €100 million of taxpayers' money each and every year subsidising a "private" education system in this state. Where else in Europe does a "private" education system exist which is subsidised by the state transferring such huge resources from the public education system to prop up private institutions? It doesn't exist. Private means private everywhere else.

To hear Brian Hayes justify the current system shows Fine Gael is just as willing to sacrifice principle if it means they will keep their constituents happy, as parasitical as aforesaid constituents clearly are.

What party do you think you get rid of this situation?

Sulmac

Article from today's Irish Times:

FG front bench split over list system

HARRY McGEE, Political Correspondent

Mon, Mar 15, 2010

THE FINE Gael front bench was deeply divided over a proposal to introduce a list system to select some TDs during discussions on its major document on political reform, according to senior figures in the party.

The original policy document presented to the shadow cabinet last month included two key proposals on Dáil electoral reform: a reduction of the number of TDs by 20 to 146; and a new list system “for the election of a limited number of people with particular expertise gained outside of politics”.

It suggested that approximately 15 TDs be elected in this manner and that the proposal be put to the Irish people as part of a super-referendum constitution day.

However, when the party front bench considered the proposal, it rejected the idea. Some TDs said privately this weekend they had been under the impression that the concept had been abandoned. But the party spokesman said this had never been the case.

It had been agreed at front-bench level that the party would begin a consultation process with its membership and the electorate before making a final decision on the list system.

Over the weekend, party leader Enda Kenny told The Irish Times the party would await the report on electoral reform due later this year from the all-party Committee on the Constitution. Mr Kenny said that if elected to Government, Fine Gael would also convene a constitutional forum within 100 days of assuming office, at which the list system and other major reforms proposed by the party, including the abolition of the Seanad, would be discussed.

Mr Kenny confirmed he would launch the document immediately after the party’s national conference in Killarney next weekend.

The proposals contained in the 67-page document are expected to form a major part of his leader’s speech on Wednesday.

“It’s a massive programme for politics,” said Mr Kenny. “I am very pleased to get the document adopted as Fine Gael policy.”

Several prominent members of the party said they opposed the list on the basis that it was elitist and divisive. A number of TDs also said they were not happy with the manner in which the parliamentary party was asked to approve the document, without catching sight of it, but on the basis of presentations made by one of its key authors, environment spokesman Phil Hogan.

The strongest public criticism of this was made by Dublin South East TD Lucinda Creighton who told Newstalk that backbenchers were expected to play the role of “performing monkeys” with respect to the document.

Ms Creighton’s objections to quotas for women candidates did force part of the document to be withdrawn.

Yesterday, the party’s energy spokesman, Simon Coveney, accepted that some TDs had reservations about the list but he believed it had merit. “Yes, there are examples of list systems being abused. But I look at it in the context of the abolition of the Seanad. There is merit in getting people into politics, who might not otherwise stand, who have something to offer on policy, or legislation or expertise,” he said.

The party spokesman said “New Politics” was “a radical document that goes to the heart of the political system. There were strong views on some proposals, which you would expect.

“It’s fantastic that we got through such a radical document and it is now Fine Gael policy,” he said. He added it was standard practice for a front bench member to make a presentation on new policy at party meetings, rather than publishing a document.

© 2010 The Irish Times

fuelinjection

Pesky blueshirts.
An anomoly of Irish politics, when will they go bankrupt and disappear ?

Sulmac

bijapos wrote: »

Lets say they get 6% of the vote, with 50 list seats available they get 3 seats (Sargent, Gormley, Ryan), but Sargent, Ryan, Gogarty and De Burca have all been elected on the PR system.

This means that Sargents "list" seat goes to the next one on the list (Cuffe) and Ryans seat goes to the next on the list (White).

Hope thats clear.;)

Well, if MMP was used (as in NZ), then if they got 6% of the vote, they'd get 6% of the total number of seats (so 6 of 100), regardless of how many TDs were elected using STV. So say the four TDs you mentioned were elected by STV, they would only get two more [Gormley and Cuffe], not three.

Everything else was spot on, though.

Annasopra

What's MMP?

Kiwi_knock

MMP is Mixed Member Proportional representation, in it you will have two votes. One for your constituency and then one nationwide or a wider geographical region. In your constituency you will vote for a specific candidate while in the nationwide vote you will vote for your party. This leaves you free to vote for the better politician in your area instead of basing your decision on party grounds.

Sulmac

From today's Irish Times:

Young Fine Gael rejects all of leadership's key reform plans

HARRY McGEE Political Correspondent

Fri, Mar 19, 2010

THE YOUTH wing of Fine Gael has come out against all the major reforms proposed by the party leadership in its radical New Politics document.

In a document to be circulated at this weekend’s national conference in Killarney, Young Fine Gael (YFG) opposes the abolition of the Seanad; the introduction of a list system; the reduction of the presidential term of office from seven years; the lowering of the voting age from 18; and the introduction of a gender quota.

Entitled Transforming Our Democracy, the document has been approved by the YFG national executive, under its president Barry Walsh.

It criticises many of the reforms driven by party leader Enda Kenny and his team as “piecemeal” and questions if such fundamental changes to the democratic system can be justified under the heading of “cost savings”.

“Some of the Fine Gael policies unveiled to date seem to be based primarily on cost-savings to the exchequer, while other seem to be a knee-jerk response to public anger,” states the document, which has been seen by The Irish Times .

“There seems to have been little consideration of how the proposed changes will impact on the workings of our democratic structures.”

According to the document, a majority of YFG members are opposed to the abolition of the Seanad and believe the savings of €30 million over a Dáil term do not constitute legitimate grounds.

Instead, YFG wants the Seanad to become a “citizens’ assembly” or a crucible of ideas, with a strict focus on long-term policy, no whip system, no remit to discuss day-to-day issues, and powers to vet appointments to important State positions.

It suggests Senators be elected on a national list system, and proposes the abolition of university seats and of the Taoiseach’s 11 nominees.

On Dáil reform, the YFG document describes the proposed list system as “tokenistic and almost meaningless”, saying it favours the retention of the current system.

On the presidency, it says reducing the seven-year term will be “meaningless to the man on the street”. It instead argues for the powers of the President to be expanded to reflect the direct mandate from voters.

The new powers would include legislation initiative, following a petition from citizens; veto over legislation; power to propose constitutional amendments; a right to meet the Cabinet; and an expanded role in foreign affairs.

On lowering the voting age, YFG states simply that it does not accept the proposition.

The document commends the party’s TDs and Senators for their decision to reject gender quotas.

“YFG is strongly opposed to the imposition of gender quotas . . . It would represent a gross distortion of the electoral process,” it states.

The party yesterday outlined details of this weekend’s conference, which is likely to be dominated by debate on the radical political reforms spearheaded by Mr Kenny, which takes place on Saturday afternoon.

Mr Kenny will make his presidential speech at 8.30pm tomorrow.

© 2010 The Irish Times

Whatever you think of the proposals, I think it's a good thing to see the youth parties (both YFG and Ógra FF with their "Marriage Equality" document) challenge the senior parties rather than just act as a mouthpiece for them.

Sulmac

The full "New Politics" document can be found here, for those interested.

Racaraghaidh

It's a very good document. It's full of sensible proposals. It mixes constituency tds with the appropriate balance of national tds. It rightly proposes abolishing the seanad, which serves no unique purpose. It's full of sensible cost saving proposals while enhancing the power of irish democracy