Do traffic levels justify the new motorways?

JHMEG · 25-01-2010 12:11am #1

I was on the new M6 earlier this week and it struck me that from Athlone to Galway there was feck all traffic. I think I had at most 10 cars come against me. Granted it was about 7:30pm on Tuesday evening.

Should the M6 from Athlone to Galway have been a good quality 2-way road instead, like a lot of the N4?

The N9 is a national disgrace, but again does Carlow to Waterford actually warrant a motorway? Would the money not have been better spent (and journeys been quicker) putting in 3 lanes from Naas to the start of the M9, and just re-align bad bits of the existing N9 (ie bypass Castledermott and fix a lot of what's in Co Kilkenny)?

Having travelled up and down the M8 this weekend for the first time I can say it seemed busy, certainly busier than the M6. But Cork is approx 4 times the size of Galway so the M8 would seem to be the only motorway that is justified?

Carawaystick · 25-01-2010 12:29am

The N6 was fairly decent 2 lane road from Rochfordbridge to Aughrim and from Cappataggle to Galway. There were several fatal head on crashes on it over the last few years, It's unlikely there'll be any more.

There's loads of houses and fields opening onto the old N6, to remove the danger of these, you'ld need to build a new offline route, then you're more than halfway to building a Dual carriageway, so to improve safety you might as well make it a hqdc and then put up the blue signs.

I'd say the toll reduces the traffic on the route.

There was a decent amount of traffic on it this weekend, Fri night, Sat day, Sun afternoon.

mike65 · 25-01-2010 12:43am

Bit late for any concerns now. The other things to say is that they are built for tomorrow as much as today, so ask again in 30 years. If we have cars in 30 years that it.

Vic_08 · 25-01-2010 12:59am

In most cases beyond the Dublin commuter zone the levels drop off to below that which requires motorways.

Take the N9 as an example, there are a number of very bad pinch points on that awful road between Carlow and Waterford but rarely are there significant hold-ups. I can't imagine the traffic volumes come close to saturation point for a good single carriageway road and that is probably all that should have been built based on that criteria.

However there are other considerations. Speed and safety are greatly increased with motorways and even though the theoretical speed of high quality single carriageways would not be greatly below that of a motorway the terrible driving habits of Irish motorists push actual road speeds way down.

I seem to recall reading somewhere that when the current tranche of motorways are completed Ireland will have the highest mileage of motorway per head of population in Europe. Perhaps in 30 years instead of being thankful that they were built to cope with future possible demand we will be regretting the extra cost of having to maintain these roads in addition to the vast network of N, R, L and other roads in the country.

axer · 25-01-2010 1:03am

JHMEG wrote: »

I was on the new M6 earlier this week and it struck me that from Athlone to Galway there was feck all traffic. I think I had at most 10 cars come against me. Granted it was about 7:30pm on Tuesday evening.

Should the M6 from Athlone to Galway have been a good quality 2-way road instead, like a lot of the N4?

The N9 is a national disgrace, but again does Carlow to Waterford actually warrant a motorway? Would the money not have been better spent (and journeys been quicker) putting in 3 lanes from Naas to the start of the M9, and just re-align bad bits of the existing N9 (ie bypass Castledermott and fix a lot of what's in Co Kilkenny)?

Having travelled up and down the M8 this weekend for the first time I can say it seemed busy, certainly busier than the M6. But Cork is approx 4 times the size of Galway so the M8 would seem to be the only motorway that is justified?

This topic seems stupid. You travel on the M6 on a weekday at 7:30pm and compare it to weekend traffic on the M8.

Try the m6 again some friday evening and you will see the volume of traffic that uses it.

Judgement Day · 25-01-2010 1:16am

axer wrote: »

This topic seems stupid. You travel on the M6 on a weekday at 7:30pm and compare it to weekend traffic on the M8.

Try the m6 again some friday evening and you will see the volume of traffic that uses it.

Ah, so we need a massive motorway network to cater for rush hour on Friday evenings - now I understand. Who is going to pay for the maintenance of all these new roads not to mention the vast network of boreens that pass for the secondary road system?

L1011 · 25-01-2010 1:21am

Most of the M8 does not have the traffic to justify a motorway purely on a traffic figure basis *either*. If we took the UK's approach, basically every motorway in Ireland that would justify a motorway/DC rather than single carriageway was built by the mid 1990s!

The roads weren't built solely to current traffic figures - they were built to expected traffic figures for the mid 2020s. Good roads enduce traffic. Journeys that wouldn't have been done, or may have been done by train or flying (Cork->Dublin in particular) will be done by road. Journeys that may have taken shorter routes on poor roads will be done by the motorway network, and so on. I don't think many people will take the N52 to go from Dundalk to Tullamore anymore unless they're desperately short of money for the extra fuel and three tolls!

Also, the price difference of building a Type 1 DC (can be motorway or N-road) isn't massively above the price of building a Type 2 DC (N-road only) or even a standard single carriageway except for junctions. For roads that go very long distances through open countryside with few junctions - like the M6 - there would have been absolutely no point building a single carriageway instead.

axer · 25-01-2010 1:30am

Judgement Day wrote: »

Ah, so we need a massive motorway network to cater for rush hour on Friday evenings - now I understand.

I'll take it you didnt get my point as it flew past you.

Victor · 25-01-2010 1:37am

It would have been useful if they didn't build the M8, but instead built the M20 and instead of building the M9, complete the M11 to Waterford and upgraded individual points elsewhere.

MYOB wrote: »

Good roads enduce traffic. Journeys that wouldn't have been done, or may have been done by train or flying (Cork->Dublin in particular) will be done by road.

In other words, traffic expands to occupy available road space. that isn't sustainable and erodes whatever efficiency the road would otherwise create.

L1011 · 25-01-2010 2:05am

Victor wrote: »

In other words, traffic expands to occupy available road space. that isn't sustainable and erodes whatever efficiency the road would otherwise create.

Not solely. Traffic that might have divided over a number of inferior roads instead uses the better. The idea of moving commuter traffic from internal flights to roads and "not sustainable" shouldn't be in the same sentance.

That traffic is moving off rail (both passenger and freight) to road is the fault of our incompetent rail operator, not the road.

JHMEG · 25-01-2010 11:13am

3 posters mention predicted traffic levels, and therein also lies a problem. These were predictions made during the Celtic Tiger years when the population, like house prices, was predicted to grow forever.

We are currently in a period of net emigration, and the population is falling. This trend is likely to continue for some time.

JHMEG · 25-01-2010 11:15am

Also, as MYOB points out, is there now any need for rail from Galway or Cork (and soon Waterford) to Dublin?

I'd imagine that an express bus service is quicker than trains on all the above routes.

Zoney · 25-01-2010 11:19am

Victor wrote: »

It would have been useful if they didn't build the M8, but instead built the M20 and instead of building the M9, complete the M11 to Waterford and upgraded individual points elsewhere.

In other words, traffic expands to occupy available road space. that isn't sustainable and erodes whatever efficiency the road would otherwise create.

That might be true to a point, but I don't think it needs a lot of imagination to see that the existing roads we had actively stifled commerce and economic activity. Indeed they still are on the likes of the N20 (Limerick-Cork traffic is lower than you would expect, even given that Limerick isn't that big a city in the grander scheme of things, but especially given Galway-Cork traffic uses the route too). I certainly think the low N9 traffic between Waterford and N10 was not indicative of the level of service that needed to be provided.

When the expanded railway network was shut down, and it was admittedly not something that could be afforded back then, traffic was shunted onto goat tracks of roads, and there are ample Dáil debates from the era showing that it did have a real effect on commerce in some regions - as rather than goods moving by roads instead, in many cases they stopped moving. Some of these roads are still barely fit for purpose today. Economic activity has of course now "adapted" - but not necessarily in a satisfactory manner.

This isn't even to start on the issue of the hundreds who've died due to the condition of these roads and regardless of people's driving habits, the greatly increased chance of accident (even if it is higher than it should be due to driving habits) when not only are the roads poor condition, but also high traffic for the road type.

axer · 25-01-2010 11:20am

JHMEG wrote: »

Also, as MYOB points out, is there now any need for rail from Galway or Cork (and soon Waterford) to Dublin?

I'd imagine that an express bus service is quicker than trains on all the above routes.

And I suppose the the buses can bring a trailer with heavy goods from Galway to Dublin and back again while they are on their journey?

JHMEG · 25-01-2010 11:23am

axer wrote: »

And I suppose the the buses can bring a trailer with heavy goods from Galway to Dublin and back again while they are on their journey?

Passenger trains don't pull freight either.

axer · 25-01-2010 11:27am

JHMEG wrote: »

Passenger trains don't pull freight either.

Never said they did but rail carries freight so yes, rail lines are needed between Galway and Cork to Dublin.

JHMEG wrote: »

Also, as MYOB points out, is there now any need for rail from Galway or Cork (and soon Waterford) to Dublin?

JHMEG · 25-01-2010 11:39am

axer wrote: »

Never said they did but rail carries freight so yes, rail lines are needed between Galway and Cork to Dublin.

Please stop nitpicking. Passenger was implied as express buses don't do freight.

axer · 25-01-2010 11:43am

JHMEG wrote: »

Please stop nitpicking. Passenger was implied as express buses don't do freight.

My point is that motorways and rail are not built solely for the commuter. They are extremely important for economic development and employment. We cannot locate all the jobs in Dublin thus we need very good transport infrastructure around the rest of the country.

JHMEG · 25-01-2010 11:54am

axer wrote: »

My point is that motorways and rail are not built solely for the commuter. They are extremely important for economic development and employment. We cannot locate all the jobs in Dublin thus we need very good transport infrastructure around the rest of the country.

My point is for passengers the bus services are now potentially better and where does that leave rail (passenger services). I'm not talking about freight and I'm not talking about pulling up rail lines and I'm not talking about commuters.

Pittens · 25-01-2010 11:55am

I'd imagine that an express bus service is quicker than trains on all the above routes.

Buses are almost never express. Most dont take the motorways. They call into every little town on the route in many cases. If you want to travel pre-motorway Ireland, take a bus. It will be like that for ever I think.

JHMEG · 25-01-2010 11:58am

Citylink run a very quick Express service between Galway and Dublin. Illegal or not I believe it is the quickest way to get between the two cities.

25-01-2010 12:03pm

Pittens wrote: »

Buses are almost never express. Most dont take the motorways. They call into every little town on the route in many cases. If you want to travel pro-motorway Ireland, take a bus. It will be like that for ever I think.

On the Galway - Dublin route there are express services that use the motorways.

Gobus.ie, Citylink (outside the terms of their licence it seems) and even one or two of the Bus Eireann ones use it.

JHMEG · 25-01-2010 12:09pm

Yeah, after I posted I saw several others also run Express.

axer · 25-01-2010 12:20pm

JHMEG wrote: »

My point is for passengers the bus services are now potentially better and where does that leave rail (passenger services). I'm not talking about freight and I'm not talking about pulling up rail lines and I'm not talking about commuters.

Rail is still going to be quicker for passengers as the arrival times are usually bang on time. The number of passenger services on rail will adapt according to passenger levels.

Look at other countries such as Germany who have both a great motorway and rail service (although rail commuters there will disagree about their rail service being excellent). They still have a high demand for their regional trains dispite the excellent motorways.

It will pretty much cost the same to maintain the rail lines for use with freight trains anyway thus the passenger side of things is a spin off and irrelevant.

corktina · 25-01-2010 12:36pm

you cant compare irelands rial system with Germany as the distances here are mich shorter. All journeys are via Dublin and I doubt many if any change trains there for onward travel.

I beleive InterCity rail will be under extreme pressure from express coaches once the N8 and N7 are finished. as for freight...what freight?:(

oh and i agree that to have an N7 AND N8 and NOT to have an N20 is plain daft.

JHMEG · 25-01-2010 12:44pm

axer wrote: »

Look at other countries such as Germany who have both a great motorway and rail service

And therein lies the truth. Busy motorways, over a huge country, with traffic levels rarely seen here. And a train network that probably allows people to travel to somewhere other than Berlin.

axer · 25-01-2010 12:44pm

corktina wrote: »

you cant compare irelands rial system with Germany as the distances here are mich shorter. All journeys are via Dublin and I doubt many if any change trains there for onward travel.

Not true as a huge amount of people in Germany commute to work even for short distances < 2 hours which is well comparable.

corktina wrote: »

I beleive InterCity rail will be under extreme pressure from express coaches once the N8 and N7 are finished. as for freight...what freight?:(

Believe it or not there are a number of freight runs every day on the Galway to Dublin line.
http://www.iarnrodeireann.ie/our_services/IE_freight.asp

axer · 25-01-2010 12:45pm

JHMEG wrote: »

And therein lies the truth. Busy motorways, over a huge country, with traffic levels rarely seen here. And a train network that probably allows people to travel to somewhere other than Berlin.

Which is why we need more rail routes, not less.

JHMEG · 25-01-2010 12:49pm

corktina wrote: »

as for freight...what freight?:(

Good point. I believe in the context of the M6 and M8 there is no freight on the Galway or Cork lines.

axer wrote:

Which is why we need more rail routes, not less.

We don't have the population to support them, and we don't have spare cash for any more loss making rail services. Govt subvention to CIE is already over €800m a year, the bulk oif which goes to Irish Rail.

axer · 25-01-2010 12:50pm

JHMEG wrote: »

Good point. I believe in the context of the M6 and M8 there is no freight on the Galway or Cork lines.

There are a few runs a day and at least one in the middle of the night. I live about 100m from a railway station on the Galway - Dublin line.

corktina · 25-01-2010 1:02pm

axer wrote: »

Not true as a huge amount of people in Germany commute to work even for short distances < 2 hours which is well comparable.

Believe it or not there are a number of freight runs every day on the Galway to Dublin line.
http://www.iarnrodeireann.ie/our_services/IE_freight.asp

there is a HUGE number of people in Germany which probably acccounts for that

that web page must be YEARS out of date. There is virtually NIL rail bourne frieght left on this island

corktina · 25-01-2010 1:04pm

axer wrote: »

There are a few runs a day and at least one in the middle of the night. I live about 100m from a railway station on the Galway - Dublin line.

i believe there is one return timber train which would account for one of them and a contaniner train from ballina to Waterford which runs nearly empty Im told . Off the top of my head that is the sum total of freight in ireland with the exception of the tara mines trains

corktina · 25-01-2010 1:07pm

axer wrote: »

Which is why we need more rail routes, not less.

to where? all services need at least ONE major population centre on them and in Ireland we have One major city and several other cities which dont really rate mucgh more than large towns...

ManFromAtlantis · 25-01-2010 1:09pm

might'nt have the numbers but we have the traffic jams

JHMEG · 25-01-2010 1:13pm

corktina wrote: »

i believe there is one return timber train which would account for one of them and a contaniner train from ballina to Waterford which runs nearly empty Im told . Off the top of my head that is the sum total of freight in ireland with the exception of the tara mines trains

Note: none of the above run to Galway or Cork. Only Ballina, Dublin, Tara and Waterford seem to be involved in freight.

corktina · 25-01-2010 1:14pm

JHMEG wrote: »

Note: none of the above run to Galway or Cork. Only Ballina, Dublin, Tara and Waterford seem to be involved in freight.

ya...near enough NIL freight but I was trying to be even -handed..:D

Judgement Day · 25-01-2010 1:31pm

axer wrote: »

I'll take it you didnt get my point as it flew past you.

You're right and I still dont.

Anyway the point being made by some posters here about there being no need for the railways is perfectly valid - but only as they are presently operated. There is virtually no freight on the railway today and when Tara Mines closes that will be that as the other flows to and from Ballina will be unsustainable on their own. Your link to IE services is antiquated - try clicking on Fastrack for instance and see where that gets you. Yes, in my opinion, railways are vital to the future of this country but not as presently operated. CIE needs to be got rid of completely and a new State company put in place to maintain the permanent way and with ALL other aspects of operation put out to tender. Will it happen - I doubt it and the railway will continue to become increasingly irrelevant to most people. :mad:

KevR · 25-01-2010 7:11pm

JHMEG wrote: »

I was on the new M6 earlier this week and it struck me that from Athlone to Galway there was feck all traffic. I think I had at most 10 cars come against me. Granted it was about 7:30pm on Tuesday evening.

Should the M6 from Athlone to Galway have been a good quality 2-way road instead, like a lot of the N4?

The N9 is a national disgrace, but again does Carlow to Waterford actually warrant a motorway? Would the money not have been better spent (and journeys been quicker) putting in 3 lanes from Naas to the start of the M9, and just re-align bad bits of the existing N9 (ie bypass Castledermott and fix a lot of what's in Co Kilkenny)?

Having travelled up and down the M8 this weekend for the first time I can say it seemed busy, certainly busier than the M6. But Cork is approx 4 times the size of Galway so the M8 would seem to be the only motorway that is justified?

Maybe you were joking but I really struggle to believe that you only had 10 cars pass you in the other direction on a full trip from Athlone to Galway at any time, day or night. I used to commute from Galway to Athlone on a daily basis, often travelling home after 7pm and I would always pass a lot more than 10 cars.

A quick look at average directional hourly count for the old N6 in 2009 shows the following:
Athlone average between 7 and 8pm:
766 Westbound
653 Eastbound

Ballydangan average between 7 and 8pm (bear in mind that these figures are skewed downwards by the July opening of the M6 Athlone-Ballinasloe):
345 Westbound
291 Eastbound

Kilreekill average between 7 and 8pm:
318 Westbound
301 Eastbound

http://www.nra.ie/NetworkManagement/TrafficCounts/TrafficCounterData/

On average it used to take me an hour and a half to drive the 96km. That's an average speed of roughly 64kmh.
The government didn't decide to build the motorway network because existing roads were at full capacity, they did it because it's damaging to the economy to have people moving between urban areas, such as Dublin, Galway and Athlone, at pace of only 64kmh. The government's aim is to have traffic on all major routes moving at a minimum of 92kmh, by building motorways they are exceeding that target.

It used to take 4 hours to drive from Galway to Dublin. That has to be bad for the economy from a productivity point of view and from the point of view of attracting investment to the country.

Tragedy · 25-01-2010 7:49pm

Why did we never really do anything with 2+1?
On the sections I've driven(Tralee > Killarney > Cork) they're excellent, and the tiny section outside limerick on the N7 is a lifesaver coming up to Dublin.

I know there were huge tracts of the N7 that could have been upgraded to 2+1 with no impact to houses/business.

corktina · 25-01-2010 7:57pm

2+1? well, undoubtedly the N20 section south of Mallow has saved lives BUT with a little extra tarmac that whole section could have been 2+2 and we wouldnt be subject to sitting behind retired Priests and old Grannies in Micras, not to mention Tractors or over-loaded trucks. The 2 lane sections are 1 km long, which is just about enough for maybe 6 cars to overtake if they have their wits about them (usually though some dork pulls out and ambles the whole length of the section).

In short, they are a discredited experiment and I understand no more are planned.

JHMEG · 25-01-2010 8:29pm

KevR wrote: »

Maybe you were joking but I really struggle to believe that you only had 10 cars pass you in the other direction on a full trip from Athlone to Galway at any time, day or night.

May not have been 10, but was certainly very little. As someone said the toll may be a discouragement and the old road is still there and still "free". I don't dispute that something had to be done with the N6 tho.

Tragedy · 25-01-2010 8:48pm

corktina wrote: »

2+1? well, undoubtedly the N20 section south of Mallow has saved lives BUT with a little extra tarmac that whole section could have been 2+2

The whole point of 2+1 roads is that many 'normal' national routes could be turned into these with minimums of disruption/CPO's.

and we wouldnt be subject to sitting behind retired Priests and old Grannies in Micras, not to mention Tractors or over-loaded trucks.

2+1's help alleviate that!

The 2 lane sections are 1 km long, which is just about enough for maybe 6 cars to overtake if they have their wits about them (usually though some dork pulls out and ambles the whole length of the section).

If someone's holding up traffic doing 60-70km/h, a lot more than 6 cars should get past in 1km. In my experience at least!

In short, they are a discredited experiment and I understand no more are planned.

Discredited how? They were never really implemented properly over here, with what - less than 10 small sections countrywide?
Many countries use 2+1's extensively

If offered 100km of Motorway or 400km of 2+1, I know which I'd take.

corktina · 25-01-2010 8:56pm

Tragedy wrote: »

The whole point of 2+1 roads is that many 'normal' national routes could be turned into these with minimums of disruption/CPO's.

2+1's help alleviate that!

If someone's holding up traffic doing 60-70km/h, a lot more than 6 cars should get past in 1km. In my experience at least!

Discredited how? They were never really implemented properly over here, with what - less than 10 small sections countrywide?
Many countries use 2+1's extensively

If offered 100km of Motorway or 400km of 2+1, I know which I'd take.

and with a minimal extra they could be 2+2s

no they dont alleviate the problems..you try being on one of the much longer single lane sections behind these pests.....

my experiance of the number of cars that can pass in 1km is bigger than yours I guess...

discredited and no being pursued is my info.!

Tragedy · 25-01-2010 9:12pm

corktina wrote: »

and with a minimal extra they could be 2+2s

2+2s aren't minimal extra.

no they dont alleviate the problems..you try being on one of the much longer single lane sections behind these pests.....

Yes they do. I suppose overtaking is pointless based on your logic?

The section northbound on the N7 out of Limerick can shave 10mins of my total journey sometimes, purely because i get to leapfrog the slowest(or most of them) drivers in one section early on. You don't need continuous 2+1 to make a difference, you just need enough sections to leapfrog slower drivers.

I've driven 7,000miles on the M/N7 and N69 since October, a Motorway isn't even necessary to Portlaoise based on volume, nevermind all the way to Limerick. All thats necessary is adequate safe overtaking opportunities, which is what 2+1 provides.

The obsession with Motorways down the country where traffic volumes are low is retarded, and stymied road development elsewhere quite a lot.

discredited and no being pursued is my info.!

It's not being pursued since 2006, whats your info on it being discredited?

corktina · 25-01-2010 9:18pm

go examine the N20... there are many stretches which could accomodate 2+2 with NO extra road width....

If you are 20 vehicles back in the line, you wont even get the chance to pass them out over the whole length of the 2+1 section....

and to expand on the topic a little more...there are several stretches on thsi same road that dont come into the 2+1 project but nevertheless are 2+1 as they have "slow" lanes....these are routinely ignored by many many drivers who wont pull over into them...were they proper 2+2 or dual carriageway, they would nt dream of this ignorant behaviour,.

Tragedy · 25-01-2010 9:30pm

corktina wrote: »

go examine the N20... there are many stretches which could accomodate 2+2 with NO extra road width....

That's great, the point is 2+1 fits on many national route with hard shoulders - without needing to widen the road.

If you are 20 vehicles back in the line, you wont even get the chance to pass them out over the whole length of the 2+1 section....

No, but like overtaking opportunities, you get to overtake some.
And at the next section, you get to overtake more.
And again at the next.

and to expand on the topic a little more...there are several stretches on thsi same road that dont come into the 2+1 project but nevertheless are 2+1 as they have "slow" lanes....these are routinely ignored by many many drivers who wont pull over into them...

Slow lanes are to the best of my knowledge, only on upwards inclines and for HGV's.

were they proper 2+2 or dual carriageway, they would nt dream of this ignorant behaviour,.

Do you even drive a car on motorways or D/Cs? I see people sitting in the overtaking lane when there are no other cars near them regularly on the M50 and M7.

JHMEG · 25-01-2010 9:34pm

The nice thing about 2+1's is they deliver a lot of the benefits of a DC but at 0.5% the cost, as it's only repainting an existing road.

To 2+2 an existing road requires repaiting, median barrier etc, so delivers very little more than a 2+1 at much greater cost.

Tragedy · 25-01-2010 9:40pm

JHMEG wrote: »

The nice thing about 2+1's is they deliver a lot of the benefits of a DC but at 0.5% the cost, as it's only repainting an existing road.

To 2+2 an existing road requires repaiting, median barrier etc, so delivers very little more than a 2+1 at much greater cost.

Exactly!

Look at the proposed M7, it's years overdue, with feck all still completed - and when they complete a section, they can't open it because it isn't tied in properly with the old N7 and it needs so much red tape.

Driving past the completed Roscrea bypass month after month with the opening date being pushed back farther and farther = funny.

Being stuck behind someone in a battered Hiace doing 30km/h(Yes, 30) for the whole section of the bypass while it was still one lane only and no overtaking. I was fifth car back, by the end of the roadworks I could see a tailback 2miles long.

-Corkie- · 25-01-2010 9:49pm

Them 2+1 are the greatest wanxxxx of things build a proper dc or motorway first day. the amount of road rage you see on the mallow cork one is unreal. when you get on the two bit everyone accelerates and you end up passing nothing,you go back on the one bit and you are doing 60 kph or stuck behind a tractor, which in fairness always keep in as far as they can but some clown in front is afraid to pass. forget them do it right or dont do it at all.

corktina · 25-01-2010 9:53pm

Tragedy wrote: »

No, but like overtaking opportunities, you get to overtake some.
And at the next section, you get to overtake more.
And again at the next.

Slow lanes are to the best of my knowledge, only on upwards inclines and for HGV's.

Do you even drive a car on motorways or D/Cs? I see people sitting in the overtaking lane when there are no other cars near them regularly on the M50 and M7.

there are only TWO sections on the N20....

slow lanes are NOT most definately NOT just fior HGVs >I think you may be part of the problem if you think that! You should yse the left most available lane, and that means the slow lane especially when there are others behind you wishing to pass.

corktina · 25-01-2010 9:54pm

JHMEG wrote: »

The nice thing about 2+1's is they deliver a lot of the benefits of a DC but at 0.5% the cost, as it's only repainting an existing road.

To 2+2 an existing road requires repaiting, median barrier etc, so delivers very little more than a 2+1 at much greater cost.

the N20 2+1 section had barriers insatlled along its enitre lenfgth at huge cost...it isnt a question of a few white line...go look at it.

Do traffic levels justify the new motorways?

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